squadron dues

[Spaceman3750]

Booster clubs while they sound good, have been a constant source of problems for many units as after awhile it seems the lines become blurred between the two.  In fact the regulations covering Booster Clubs keep getting tighter and tighter everytime the update CAPR 173-4.

I personally know of at least two units that have gotten into serious trouble over them.  One was eventually shut down and then allowed to recharter just to completely sever the two.

If you really think about it, why would you pay dues to another organization, or help it raise money, when you could do the same thing for your unit and have complete control of the money?  The only reason I can think of is that they can do several things that a unit is prohibited from doing in the regulation.

One of the biggest reasons I have seen is the money. Apparently (please correct me if I am wrong on this, I am only going off my understanding of the regs) if you make a certain amount, it is then reported to wing and distributed to all squadrons, same if you hit a certain amount its reported to region, and if you make a killer, national. So in other words, if you write a while lot of grants and someone donates 100,000 to your squadron, well, its going to end up at national and be distributed.

Well, if you were awarded a 100,000 grant for something and the Wing/CC signed the terms regarding the grant then it will be spent in accordance with the terms in the grant agreement. Otherwise, CAP is in a whole heap of legal trouble.

[mclarke]

True, however, the problem comes into play that the regulations say that at certain amounts certain echelons need to be notified and distribute the money as needed. I get what you mean, but, its a tough play how to proceed. Personally, I think if a squadron does the work that squadron should get the money.

[Spaceman3750]

True, however, the problem comes into play that the regulations say that at certain amounts certain echelons need to be notified and distribute the money as needed. I get what you mean, but, its a tough play how to proceed. Personally, I think if a squadron does the work that squadron should get the money.

Notified is significantly different then allowed to divide the cash.

[Eclipse]

True, however, the problem comes into play that the regulations say that at certain amounts certain echelons need to be notified and distribute the money as needed. I get what you mean, but, its a tough play how to proceed. Personally, I think if a squadron does the work that squadron should get the money.

You're demonstrating how boosters get started - people who make assumptions based on flawed understanding of the process, or based on wive's tales.

The dollar amount determines which echelon may accept the donation, units may accept up to $5000 in cash, and no property, as the amounts increase, so does the level of echelon.  Common sense dictates that no unit needs $100k in their mattress unless it is for a building fund, in which
case Wing or higher is already involved (you cannot buy, build, or rent a building without at least Wing approval), and no region or Wing CC worth
his bird would allow $100K in cash to be donated directly to a single unit without a really good reason, especially when you consider this is 2-3+ times the annual operating budget of most wings.  A donation on that that scale would be negotiated by all parties as to the best use of the money,
and absent money bequeathed to a unit, no corporation is going to give a single unit $100k, especially for operating expenses (vs. a specific capital expense).

There is such a thing as a requirement for good governance with out leadership, regardless of who actually works towards the donation. This is one of the reasons why NHQ now prohibits local squadrons from soliciting national corporations for major donations, etc., because, for example,
the Podunk Kansas Composite, should not be cold-calling Boeing and asking for a grant.  That's NHQ's job to both avoid duplication and insure we
write the grant application properly, etc.

[jimmydeanno]

Booster clubs while they sound good, have been a constant source of problems for many units as after awhile it seems the lines become blurred between the two.  In fact the regulations covering Booster Clubs keep getting tighter and tighter everytime the update CAPR 173-4.

I personally know of at least two units that have gotten into serious trouble over them.  One was eventually shut down and then allowed to recharter just to completely sever the two.

If you really think about it, why would you pay dues to another organization, or help it raise money, when you could do the same thing for your unit and have complete control of the money?  The only reason I can think of is that they can do several things that a unit is prohibited from doing in the regulation.

One of the biggest reasons I have seen is the money. Apparently (please correct me if I am wrong on this, I am only going off my understanding of the regs) if you make a certain amount, it is then reported to wing and distributed to all squadrons, same if you hit a certain amount its reported to region, and if you make a killer, national. So in other words, if you write a while lot of grants and someone donates 100,000 to your squadron, well, its going to end up at national and be distributed.

You are wrong about this.  The squadron's money is maintained in the wing bank account and set up as a cost center.  Any money the squadron takes in is added to that cost center.

If the unit folds, the money (which is CAP's anyway) gets put into a different cost center.

[RADIOMAN015]

In my unit the senior members pay $15.00 per calendar quarter while assigned to the unit in ANY status.  Cadets do not pay dues.    We are on a military base so there's no rent, utilities (except internet and long distance phone svc) expenses.

I personally wanted to bring the senior member dues up to $20.00 per quarter and mentioned that at a senior staff meeting.  There was dead silence.    Cadets don't pay dues.
For some activities the members have to pay the full costs.  In some instances the squadron funds part of the cost.  IF a cadet (and maybe even a senior member) has a financial problem that may prevent them from attending a CAP activity, the unit might help that individual.  I would also like to see cadets pay $5.00 per quarter in dues and that money would strictly be place aside for only cadet program usage.

I find some of the wing banker policies to be a burden.  There's really no reason why units can't establish a petty cash fund assigned to a designated person for small expenditures.  The fund would be reimbursed by submission to the wing banker as required.  The only issue is to ensure the total petty cash funds nationwide remain below a certain dollar amount so the auditors don't consider it as material to the auditing/financial statement certification.

I would like to see CAP change its' policy to require that units that primarily use their own members' (dues) money for operating unit expenses MUST post to the unit bulletin board or provide a copy monthly revenue & expense reports to the senior membership (via email attachment or report).
RM     
     

[FW]

Booster clubs while they sound good, have been a constant source of problems for many units as after awhile it seems the lines become blurred between the two.  In fact the regulations covering Booster Clubs keep getting tighter and tighter everytime the update CAPR 173-4.

I personally know of at least two units that have gotten into serious trouble over them.  One was eventually shut down and then allowed to recharter just to completely sever the two.

If you really think about it, why would you pay dues to another organization, or help it raise money, when you could do the same thing for your unit and have complete control of the money?  The only reason I can think of is that they can do several things that a unit is prohibited from doing in the regulation.

One of the biggest reasons I have seen is the money. Apparently (please correct me if I am wrong on this, I am only going off my understanding of the regs) if you make a certain amount, it is then reported to wing and distributed to all squadrons, same if you hit a certain amount its reported to region, and if you make a killer, national. So in other words, if you write a while lot of grants and someone donates 100,000 to your squadron, well, its going to end up at national and be distributed.

You are wrong about this.  The squadron's money is maintained in the wing bank account and set up as a cost center.  Any money the squadron takes in is added to that cost center.

If the unit folds, the money (which is CAP's anyway) gets put into a different cost center.

Exactly, the wing only acts as the administrator of the funds.  Squadron money is controlled by the squadron.  However, the money can not be transferred to a "booster club" for any reason.
Some squadrons have much more than $100k in the bank.  They have full access to every penny. 

BTW; a local squadron can hit up the big corps. for money however, it must be coordinated with NHQ first to insure there is no duplication of effort. 

How well financially"endowed" a squadron is does not concern NHQ.  The organization only cares that the money is safe and is used according to the regulations.

CAPR 173-4 is clear on fundraising and who approves donations.   Booster Clubs must be totally independent, may not use "CAP" as part of their name,  can't use cadets in uniform to solicit and, must clearly state that they are independent of Civil Air Patrol.  We even have rules restricting members ability to serve in a booster club's leadership structure.

[BillB]

As a Member of the Board of the Gainesville (FL) Regional Airport Authority, two years ago I was able to get the Airport Administration to drop the $189 a month T-hanger rent (which includes utilities). I got the full Board to approve charging CAP $1 a year for the T-hanger. Otherwise the local Squadron would have had to start charging Squadron dues After the full Board voted on the $1 annual charge, the Airport Adminsistraion felt it would be to much of a paperwork problem and dropped the $1 charge.

[Eclipse]

I know we'll hear from Sparky on this, but I don't understand why some feel cadets should not pay dues.  In most units they
are the central recipient of a majority of effort and attention.  They benefit from the same internet, lights, and other costs
in the same way as everyone else, usually more.

It is pretty common in Boy Scouts to pay a few bucks a week, and you'll find a lot of former cadets who used to bring a buck or
two each week.

Insignia, certificates, badges, even paper and toner, none of that is free and the money has to come from somewhere.

[jimmydeanno]

I know we'll hear from Sparky on this, but I don't understand why some feel cadets should not pay dues.  In most units they
are the central recipient of a majority of effort and attention.  They benefit from the same internet, lights, and other costs
in the same way as everyone else, usually more.

It is pretty common in Boy Scouts to pay a few bucks a week, and you'll find a lot of former cadets who used to bring a buck or
two each week.

Insignia, certificates, badges, even paper and toner, none of that is free and the money has to come from somewhere.

We do "hidden dues" essentially.  We have a snack fund that makes 50% on each dollar spent.  So far this year, it's raised $450.00 in profit to be used for cadet activities, and other squadron needs.  Works out pretty well. 

[Rowan]

My squadron collects $36 in dues from cadets only, and we collect at the start of the fiscal year (October).  The dues are pro-rated at $3 per month upon joining.

We don't want to collect dues on a monthly basis since that would be a nightmare for the finance officer.  Collecting annually works much better.

Many years ago we discussed charging senior members dues, but it was determined that all the seniors were already contributing financially but weren't requesting reimbursement for the small things.  For example, I've bought office supplies, another provided bottled water at an outdoor activity, etc, etc.

The $36 we collect from each member is deposited in the squadron account, and from that we have purchased flags & guidons, some ES equipment, postage, pizza.  We have quietly paid for a couple of cadets to attend encampment, who really wanted to go but could simply not afford it.

[Major Carrales]

I know we'll hear from Sparky on this, but I don't understand why some feel cadets should not pay dues.  In most units they
are the central recipient of a majority of effort and attention.  They benefit from the same internet, lights, and other costs
in the same way as everyone else, usually more.

It is pretty common in Boy Scouts to pay a few bucks a week, and you'll find a lot of former cadets who used to bring a buck or
two each week.

Insignia, certificates, badges, even paper and toner, none of that is free and the money has to come from somewhere.

You know me only too well.   Asking cadets to contribute money when there is no "goal" creates an unnecessary drag and expense that, when the time comes for "pulling together" to buy things for the unit...there will be backlash.  Especially parents.

This comes from experience. 

It has been much more successful to say "We need money for a new flag...here is a chart showing "X" dollars...we want to raise this money by "X" I have two factors at play 1) the "WWII Bond Drive" sort of focus with a clear goal and sense of unity of effort and 2) if the money doesn't generate, we don't get a new flag and the unit's cadets didn't really want it.  This allows allows people, in this case, cadets to examine what expenses are worth it.

Stockpiling money with no purpose suddenly generates questions of "what's that money for"  and "why do we have to pay if we never get anything out of it."

Adults can empathize with concepts like "utilities, maintenance and the like" and, if that is an issue one of three things can happen 1) present the idea to the PARENTS and 2) find a new place to meet or both.  This has rarely been an issue.

Also, don't discount the idea of donations, I have been successful in getting money for the supplies you mention by means of "reasonable" donations.  Some group in the community will ask what we need, I prepare an invoice directly to the company and present it with stamped envelope to the organization, they meet, vote and descide.  If usually is for a small amount, they want to help and being reasonable is not difficult.

I also, for those that ask how they can help financially (VFW, AMERICAN LEGION and Knights of Columbus), I prepare a "cadet sponsorship" package consiting of an invoice to Vanguard (also equally for the HOCK when it was open) for cadet hat badge, ribbons thru Mitchell and Airmen Insignia.  Cadets "trade up" grade insignia when they get promoted, so we end up with a good back log.

Why, Eclipse, do you continually bring up the Boy Scouts?  They are a different animal altogehter.  Most in our area have a solid Sponsor in a Church or other Civic Group that act in a manner than negates your point totally paying for some 70 to 90 percent of the Troops needs.

[Eclipse]

Why, Eclipse, do you continually bring up the Boy Scouts?  They are a different animal altogehter.  Most in our area have a solid Sponsor in a Church or other Civic Group that act in a manner than negates your point totally paying for some 70 to 90 percent of the Troops needs.

Not buying it - stuff costs money, and why should the seniors have to pay for operating expenses in a way that is "more" than the cadets, who are the ones primarily benefiting from the experience?  I don't know what you do for your cadets, but I know in most squadrons the cadets get a lot of their grade, badges, and certs from the unit "supply" - sometimes they trade-in/up, and most times they don't. That's one of the things dues are for.

I know, again, you will cite the economic status of many of your cadets, well whatever, but in my AOR, a big chunk of them are also doing away hockey, soccer, or other sports and activities that costs 10x's what CAP does.  Life is choice, but don't stand there with your iPad2 and tell me you can't pop $5 a month to help keep the lights on.

I only mention the BSA because, contrary to your assertion, most BSA unit operate 100% independent of any sponsor or higher organization.
They may be allowed to meet in the church basement, but the church sure isn't giving them any money - sounds a lot like CAP, right?  Except the
BSA units also get little to no support from upstream except structure and curriculum. 

Yes, they have more paid employees, but those ee's are not sending cash down the pipe, uniforms, or anything else.  Every activity is self-sufficient,
and most units do a couple of major fundraisers a year and that sustains the operating costs and any internal charity they might be interested in.
Further, bear in mind, the BSA is 100% about the kids, there is no adult program, you don't have adults contributing hundreds of hours a year
towards anything other than the kids, unlike CAP where the adults contribute their skills and money and then are also for some reason, by some people, expected to carry the weight of other members as well.

Ain't right.

Now, if you're going to tell me that in lieu of dues the unit, especially the cadets, will run a car wash, sell cheesecakes, or do similar fundraising, that is a different conversation.

[Major Carrales]

Eclipse, I support the efforts of the Buy Scouts, don't take my comments to mean that I disagree with their efforts.

The fact of the matter is I believe in CAP, that students/youth need options at the most reasonable offering. 

I consider the idea of financially burdening a cadet unnecessarily because of some "high ideal," of the sort of point you are making, is ridiculous.  Don't worry, they will have some 50 to 60 years to struggle financially.

If we are going to create good citizens we need to do that for as many as we can.  no just people who can pay.

I'm about reducing costs to membership...be it not altering uniform combination or introducing new items.  Everything has a price, a point you have repeatedly made, but let's make sure that money is going to the best things it can.

[Eclipse]

No one would disagree with the idea of fiscal responsibility, but saying that cadets should not pay, without some other legitimate funding source, is wholly unrealistic.

CAP is not a rec center, and when we start seeing it as "youth opportunity" first, we miss the entire point.  There is more to CAP then just a place to "be" a few nights a month, yet far too many people see it that way and then wonder why their cadets struggle.

Cadets and seniors don't join CAP to be attached to a garage-band scenario running on a shoe string with duct tape on the rotors.  They join the USAF Auxiliary, and they want their operations and activities to reflect that level of professionalism, image, and engagement.

And that costs money.

[Major Carrales]

No one would disagree with the idea of fiscal responsibility, but saying that cadets should not pay, without some other legitimate funding source, is wholly unrealistic.

CAP is not a rec center, and when we start seeing it as "youth opportunity" first, we miss the entire point.  There is more to CAP then just a place to "be" a few nights a month, yet far too many people see it that way and then wonder why their cadets struggle.

Cadets and seniors don't join CAP to be attached to a garage-band scenario running on a shoe string with duct tape on the rotors.  They join the USAF Auxiliary, and they want their operations and activities to reflect that level of professionalism, image, and engagement.

And that costs money.

Eclipse, because of your years of service and level headedness, I am going to reach the conclusion that you and I accomplish the same goals albeit form different fundamental points of view with maybe one or two misunderstandings thrown in for good measure.

The fact is, if we are to be successful, we should be seen as a youth opportunity and option for lots of young people...more so, the alternative to thos enegative elements that, in many sectors of the nation, are WINNING over young people.  Gangs attract the very youth that, otherwise, join cadets.  They are looking to join...to belong to something real.  I submit that the same cadet, if not every exposed to the Cadet Program, would become an outstanding, loyal and dedicated GANG member.

If you can get them into the positive aspects of the program, you can reach them and get them to the point where they, and their supporters, can "self fund."  But the motivation is tactile and real.  Abstact "dues paying" is not valued.  Already, I have to dispell the notion that the 31 dollar dues pay for the uniform or the binder they get.  When they find out that we never see a dollar of that, they usually see it as basically (and somehow) wasteful.

Those opportunities are found in providing and developing the apprication for  those "operations and activities" which "reflect that level of professionalism, image, and engagement."

I am not advocating an "inferior" CAP product, just the reasonable one.  CAP is not about shoveling money into the CAP furnace.  Cadets don't need to pay dues merely because "they have to."  There as to be a reason...a goal to reach and a tactile need.

The idea presented of "hidden dues," like pitching in for gas for trips, providing their own food on CAP trips and pitching in to buy equipment are dues enough for me.  Plus, the gas gets them there, the food staves off hunger and the equipment is there as a fruit of their savings and donation.  Thus, we don't have to have dues and still get the job done. 

[jimmydeanno]

I'm a member of several non-profits.  I think that the members of CAP are the only ones that gripe when their organization asks them for money.  If we aren't willing to support our missions, who is?  We complain when we have to buy a random uniform accessory, or our members will drop hundreds/thousands on their own personal stuff - but when we ask our seniors for $20 to start an encampment scholarship fund, suddenly the wallets close.

One other organization I'm a member of only does college scholarships as its mission.  They have corporate sponsors that cover the majority, but many of the local chapter's members cut checks for several thousands of dollars a few times a year to help bolster that fund.  They don't moan and complain that we asked them for money, because that's why they became members - to help the cause.

Squadron dues are a way of helping that cause and shouldn't be seen as some sort of burden.  However, I don't see any reason why local squadron's haven't been hitting up local businesses for money - other than command failures.

[Major Carrales]

I'm a member of several non-profits.  I think that the members of CAP are the only ones that gripe when their organization asks them for money.  If we aren't willing to support our missions, who is?  We complain when we have to buy a random uniform accessory, or our members will drop hundreds/thousands on their own personal stuff - but when we ask our seniors for $20 to start an encampment scholarship fund, suddenly the wallets close.

We have never had problems with that sort of thing.  Given a goal (this case, get a cadet to encampment) is something people can get behind.  Other things, like $10 a month for hanger items and for avition needs, furnature items or even equipment are similar.

"Give me $20 for some unknown, yet unplanned or unsubstantated item?"  That can cause issues if you intend to have full compliance.

I agree to and had Squadron Due in place in the last Squadron I commanded for Aviation, COMM and other such uses.  But cadets, who had purchases and fees of their own did not pay them unless we had some goal. 

One other organization I'm a member of only does college scholarships as its mission.  They have corporate sponsors that cover the majority, but many of the local chapter's members cut checks for several thousands of dollars a few times a year to help bolster that fund.  They don't moan and complain that we asked them for money, because that's why they became members - to help the cause.

And what are CAP units asking money for?  By your example CAP Seniors should be paying for cadets since that is one of our Three Missions.

Squadron dues are a way of helping that cause and shouldn't be seen as some sort of burden.  However, I don't see any reason why local squadron's haven't been hitting up local businesses for money - other than command failures.

If a cadet is 12 years old they have no income, only that of their parents, and additional arbitrary dues with no focus are a burden.

My point to all of these is that it is better, in my opinion, to have a ready need for money before setting it up as an automatic.

[jimmydeanno]

If you can't come up with a need for money to improve your unit, there's something missing.

1) Equipment and Materials to do stuff: Color Guard, Rocketry, O-Flights, Fuel for Activities, ES equipment, etc...

2) Awards and Decorations:  Why should the award recipient have to pay for their own award?  Did your job charge you for the last Employee of the Month Plaque you earned? (Not you specifically, rhetorical).  We spend about $1,500/year on ribbons and grade insignia - even using an exchange program for the insignia.

3) Scholarships:  Encampment is often out of reach for many of our cadets.  This also counts when they are going to NCSAs, local college scholarships, etc.

I wasn't saying that seniors should be required to pay for cadets because they are a mission.  I was noting that it seems that most seniors don't WANT to contribute to the causes that our cadet program has.  Which begs the question of the intent of our members joining.  If WE aren't willing to support our own missions, if WE don't believe in our cadet program enough to want to help the CADETS in it, then what are we doing?

Volunteering to fill out paperwork, or send in vehicle reports, while helpful, doesn't really help to fulfill the missions that we have.  The organization needs financial contributions to further its missions - its that simple.  Activities don't happen without some sort of money, etc.

There was a report that was floating around here that spoke about the average yearly contributions that our members make to CAP.  It was in the thousands.  If your local unit could get the thinking to change from "I'll spend 2K when I happen to be at activities, or when I feel like buying the cadets ice cream" to "I'll donate 1K each year to my local unit to help make sure that the program has what it needs" that's better.

Afterall, they were going to spend it on CAP in the first place, but unlike another college building with someone's name on it, the money makes an actual, measurable difference to your local program.

[Eclipse]

I also have an issue with the repeating of the insinuation that dues are somehow money cast to the wind that members will have no idea
why they gave it.

You're supposed to be doing an annual financial plan and budget, and those dues should reflect that plan, with the requisite reports back
to the membership, etc.

If they are writing a check and really have no idea why, they are either blind, or the money is being squirreled.