Mandatory Monthly Safety Briefing Gets "Watered Down" By Region

Started by RADIOMAN015, May 25, 2011, 10:10:18 PM

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RADIOMAN015

Interestingly Northeast region just put out a policy clarification that basically states that if you decided to miss 5 safety briefings IF you want to participate that's all you have to do is get a safety briefing to be current for the month you want to actively participate in CAP activities.  So I guess this means even an active regular member who just is going to take a few months off, just doesn't have to do the on line safety briefings or attend the unit safety briefings in person UNLESS they want to participate.   So technically anyone just interested in ES could just attend/complete on line a safety briefing in the month they were going to participate in CAP activities.

I guess I'm a bit confused how a "safety culture" is established & maintained when all active "regular" members are not required to either attend an in person briefing or complete an on line presentation for EVERY regular membership month.  So I guess what we are saying is that cumulative safety compliance by each member per year is not a statistic that will be kept ??? ::).
   
RM       

HGjunkie

Because the safety culture currently imposed consists of videos about random safety topics or a classroom presentation that can last forever in a day. Hardly what someone wants to do every month. And really, it's forgotten after the presentation/video exam unless you really, really, really need to remember the info.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

lordmonar

Why track BS statistics?

The point the safety guys are trying to do...is to make sure that everyone who is CURRENTLY doing CAP activities has had a safety breifing (in person or on line) within the last 30 days.

If someone does take a leave of absence for legitmate reasons (say work or a military deployment) their lack of particpation does not count against the squadron.

The catch phrase these days is "Safety Current".
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2011, 10:30:42 PM
Why track BS statistics?

The point the safety guys are trying to do...is to make sure that everyone who is CURRENTLY doing CAP activities has had a safety breifing (in person or on line) within the last 30 days.

If someone does take a leave of absence for legitmate reasons (say work or a military deployment) their lack of particpation does not count against the squadron.

The catch phrase these days is "Safety Current".
Wow, more reinvention of terminology when compliance just isn't happening -- remember when it started out as quarterly in person, than that disappeared and now it's monthly either on line or in person.   This is all silly 'make work' nonsense.  General Safety briefings can be a one page handouts or sent to member via email or just hot keyed in an email to go to the site and read it (or posted to the unit bulletin board,etc).   It's more important that when we are performing ANY operations that we look at the safety issues pertaining to that activity and brief accordingly.  The rest of this is basically just CAP fantasy land statistics.
RM

   

sneakers

I also seriously doubt that safety briefings make a significant difference in how safe people are on a day-to-day basis. Safety briefings (in my opinion) are more to keep insurance payments for national low than anything else.

Eclipse

So in other words you misunderstood the policy until just this moment?

Nothing has changes you must be current before participation, which includes the in brief at a mission.

"That Others May Zoom"

titanII

Hmmm. I didn't interpret this as you had to complete the safety briefing/online module in the month you want to participate. The way I interpreted it was you had to complete a safety briefing/online module every month if you wanted to participate in any CAP activity. Something to consider. I might be wrong on that though...
No longer active on CAP talk

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: titanII on May 26, 2011, 02:27:48 AM
Hmmm. I didn't interpret this as you had to complete the safety briefing/online module in the month you want to participate. The way I interpreted it was you had to complete a safety briefing/online module every month if you wanted to participate in any CAP activity. Something to consider. I might be wrong on that though...
....."All Staff and all active members must comply with the monthly requirement of
attending a safety brief. This must be done and there are no exceptions. If
you do miss a month and are behind in your compliance you do not have to go
back for each month you have missed.
You only need to be current to date. So
just complete a Safety Brief for the current month. If you are not current
then you legally cannot participate in any CAP Activities and Remember this
is your responsibility not ours......."
RM


RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on May 26, 2011, 02:05:37 AM
So in other words you misunderstood the policy until just this moment?

Nothing has changes you must be current before participation, which includes the in brief at a mission.
Gee, I always thought that the "safety culture" required that the regular member in CAP attend/electronically review a safety briefing monthly.  I guess not.   Now technically IF it's someone on a HQ staff that misses a monthly briefing they really shouldn't be able to perform in their staff function, or any other support.  e.g. Radio guy no safety briefing, should not be able to participate in net /operate CAP radio equipment.  Staff member shouldn't be performing ANY CAP business even if by phone from his/her residence ???

So IF one is going to be on a CAP mission and receives a safety briefing, shouldn't that count as the monthly requirement and make them current :-\ ???  (I don't think so)
RM


davidsinn

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 26, 2011, 03:48:20 AM
Quote from: titanII on May 26, 2011, 02:27:48 AM
Hmmm. I didn't interpret this as you had to complete the safety briefing/online module in the month you want to participate. The way I interpreted it was you had to complete a safety briefing/online module every month if you wanted to participate in any CAP activity. Something to consider. I might be wrong on that though...
....."All Staff and all active members must comply with the monthly requirement of
attending a safety brief. This must be done and there are no exceptions. If
you do miss a month and are behind in your compliance you do not have to go
back for each month you have missed.
You only need to be current to date. So
just complete a Safety Brief for the current month. If you are not current
then you legally cannot participate in any CAP Activities and Remember this
is your responsibility not ours......."
RM

All that's saying is if you miss three months you only need to do one to regain currency, not do three. Not that it's possible to do three online in the first place. If you are out of currency you can't even get in eServices.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

coudano

Quote from: pilot2b on May 26, 2011, 01:34:19 AM
I also seriously doubt that safety briefings make a significant difference in how safe people are on a day-to-day basis.

I tend to agree with this.
Although there might be data that contradicts it...
I haven't seen data either way.

The monthly safety briefing at the squadron is typically done as an annoying checkbox.
The thing that actually makes us safer, is when members /actually/ apply ORM principles in their day to day ops.
Does one thing lead to the other?  --in some cases... maybe.

QuoteSafety briefings (in my opinion) are more to keep insurance payments for national low than anything else.

What is your opinion based upon?
Something you heard someone else say?
Have you seen the CAP insurance policy?  Is there a rider that lowers the rate if we brief our people?

I think a lot of people think and believe a lot of things like this and that things like this get spread around and accepted as fact when, in fact, they are probably just rumor.  Doing this and that to appease "the air force" (whoever that is) is another popular way to spread myths around.


Quote from: davidsinnIf you are out of currency you can't even get in eServices.

I believe that you can, but it bounces you directly to safety online for currency
(kind of like it bounces you directly to opsec if you haven't done that yet)


Quote from: Radioman015So IF one is going to be on a CAP mission and receives a safety briefing, shouldn't that count as the monthly requirement and make them current    (I don't think so)
RM

I do think so, in fact, e-services specifically lists safety currency for quick reference so the mission staff can see who is not current.

So the question is, you go to sign in to a mission;
You pop non-current.

Do you:
a) go home
b) conduct a safety briefing on the spot, get current, and go get tasked

Only one of those makes sense...

Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 26, 2011, 03:56:41 AM
Gee, I always thought that the "safety culture" required that the regular member in CAP attend/electronically review a safety briefing monthly.  I guess not.   Now technically IF it's someone on a HQ staff that misses a monthly briefing they really shouldn't be able to perform in their staff function, or any other support.  e.g. Radio guy no safety briefing, should not be able to participate in net /operate CAP radio equipment.  Staff member shouldn't be performing ANY CAP business even if by phone from his/her residence.

It's not "technically".  If you pop your safety brief compliance, you are not allowed to participate on any level, in any role or function, until you fix your compliance. Fixing that compliance could be a regular meeting safety brief, an in-brief for an activity, or one of the online safety modules.  Being out of compliance means that, just like all requirements for participation and membership, you put yourself at risk for liability if something bad happens (whether that liability is internal disciplinary action or civil liabity would depend on the degree of "bad"), but just like uniform wear, identification, and qualifications, if you're not fully compliant, you're not supposed to be there.

Period.

And considering that NHQ has made it uber-simple to get compliant (most people could do it on their cell phone these days), there is no excuse. 

"Well, I didn't know I was out of compliance."

"It's once a month, and eServices alerts you when your compliance is getting stale."

"eWhat now?  I never go in there.  Besides, I'm having email problems..."

"You've just answered your own question."
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 26, 2011, 03:56:41 AM
So IF one is going to be on a CAP mission and receives a safety briefing, shouldn't that count as the monthly requirement and make them current  (I don't think so)
Yes, it does.  The SE from that activity enters the CAPID's from the briefing and everyone there has their currency refreshed.

"That Others May Zoom"

sneakers



Quote
QuoteSafety briefings (in my opinion) are more to keep insurance payments for national low than anything else.

What is your opinion based upon?
Something you heard someone else say?
Have you seen the CAP insurance policy?  Is there a rider that lowers the rate if we brief our people?

I think a lot of people think and believe a lot of things like this and that things like this get spread around and accepted as fact when, in fact, they are probably just rumor.  Doing this and that to appease "the air force" (whoever that is) is another popular way to spread myths around.

My dad is the safety officer at my squadron... It's a little more than just my opinion.



Eclipse

Quote from: pilot2b on May 26, 2011, 06:30:18 PM
My dad is the safety officer at my squadron... It's a little more than just my opinion.

I agree.  In this case it's your dad's opinion.

"That Others May Zoom"

Larry Mangum

QuoteYes, it does.  The SE from that activity enters the CAPID's from the briefing and everyone there has their currency refreshed.

Actually, it probably will not meet the requirement, to quote CAPR 62-1, "however, non-current members should not expect to receive this training at events that require current ES qualifications to participate unless the operations plan and/or the event leader specifies that safety education will be provided as an adjunct to the event."
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

Eclipse

Quote from: Larry Mangum on May 26, 2011, 07:28:30 PM
QuoteYes, it does.  The SE from that activity enters the CAPID's from the briefing and everyone there has their currency refreshed.

Actually, it probably will not meet the requirement, to quote CAPR 62-1, "however, non-current members should not expect to receive this training at events that require current ES qualifications to participate unless the operations plan and/or the event leader specifies that safety education will be provided as an adjunct to the event."

It 100% meets the requirement.

"That Others May Zoom"

Larry Mangum

 To quote a dictionary, "Adjunct - A thing added to something else as a supplementary rather than an essential part", so the normal briefing would not be "adjunct".  Which means the MSO should not be signing people off who are deficient unless he is pulling them aside for additional training.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

Eclipse

Any formal safety briefing meets the requirements for the monthly compliance.  Therefore, a formal in-brief at the beginning of a mission meets that requirement.

There is no requirement that the briefing be done in-person, nor that it be done at your home squadron.  It is entirely appropriate to enter everyone at the morning mission safety briefing for their compliance, and to do that every day, or every time, there is another formal safety briefing.

Quote - INTERIM CHANGE LETTER – Safety Education and Operational Risk Safety Briefing Requirements, Nov 2010
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2010_11_03_safety_education_and_ORS_0E855E8029EC2.pdf

d. There are no restrictions to the topics being presented, as long as the topic maintains
relevance to CAP's mission scope as determined by the unit commander and/or safety officer. 
Safety education currency is required for participation in activities for active members.   The
monthly safety education training requirement may be met by completing an  online safety
education training module and quiz at eServices [Online Safety Education], in-person safety
education, or authorized safety education as defined below


Quote CAPR 62-1, Mar 2011
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R062_001_85D0CB3FE48A5.pdf
3. Safety Education Requirements. The quarterly face-to-face safety education requirement for
all CAP members is no longer required; however, safety education is important to all CAP members
and it is required that active members complete safety education monthly and have it documented in
the National online safety education database.  There are no restrictions to the method in which
safety education is received or the topics being presented, as long as the topic maintains relevance to
CAP's mission scope.  Safety education documentation is required for participation in activities for
active members.
  CAP safety officers are still required to provide monthly safety education as it is
currently described in CAP regulations.


"That Others May Zoom"

FW

^ Yes. 
I've been to 3 events in the last 3 weeks.  There were formal safety briefings done at each.  A Sheet was handed out and signed so those present would be given "credit".  This is not a problem although, many more trees will be destroyed to make sign in sheets.... :D

The object is to make complience as painless as possible.  It looks pretty easy to me.  Should it be easier?


ZigZag911

Eclipse & FW are entirely right; in fact, the emphasis presently seems to be on mission/activity specific safety briefings, which makes more practical sense in my view.

As for missing the monthly briefing requirement -- suspension from participation is the automatic penalty; there is no requirement to  do 'make up' briefings, which would be pure busy work...the whole idea is to keep up to date on safety, not to simply complete a quota.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: ZigZag911 on May 26, 2011, 09:39:30 PM

As for missing the monthly briefing requirement -- suspension from participation is the automatic penalty; there is no requirement to  do 'make up' briefings, which would be pure busy work...the whole idea is to keep up to date on safety, not to simply complete a quota.
Yea right, the member driving 25 miles to attend a squadron meeting to present a course to the cadets OR complete some priority project OR perform other necessary support surely is going to be turned around and not be allowed to attend the meeting ??? I think most units are going to allow the member to do what they need to get done to help the unit.    All of this general safety briefing monthly information can easily be summarized on one sheet of paper (both sides) and posted to the unit bulletin board, and/or sent to members as an email attachment (maybe just put right in the body of the email), and/or posted to the squadron (or wing, or national) website and hot linked via an email or text message to all squadron members.  Mission accomplished --- safety information is getting out to the troops :clap: :clap:.

We need to stop wasting the memberships time on things like this.  Surely I will agree that any CAP operation does require a specific briefing/review of the potential hazards and avoidance/mitigation issues, but the rest of this program is a make work, punitive program that is questionable in effectiveness :angel:.
RM
 

Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 26, 2011, 10:33:27 PMYea right, the member driving 25 miles to attend a squadron meeting to present a course to the cadets OR complete some priority project OR perform other necessary support surely is going to be turned around and not be allowed to attend the meeting

Yep, not a problem, since that member should be aware of his status or have checked before he left the house.
But if his participation is that critical, then on arrival he sits down and takes an online course for 10 minutes and moves on.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 26, 2011, 10:33:27 PM
I think most units are going to allow the member to do what they need to get done to help the unit.    All of this general safety briefing monthly information can easily be summarized on one sheet of paper (both sides) and posted to the unit bulletin board, and/or sent to members as an email attachment (maybe just put right in the body of the email), and/or posted to the squadron (or wing, or national) website and hot linked via an email or text message to all squadron members. Mission accomplished --- safety information is getting out to the troops .

Those units who understand how to follow directions will not do this.  I can tell you at least in my wing we have turned people around or
warned them in advance.  This is now one of the duties of the safety officer.  It's no big deal.

Email?  Seriously?  Between members who have shut-out CAP emails because people like to "send to all" wacky notes about the president, or airplane
funnies, or the latest non-virus hoax, members who still treat email as a once-a-week activity "if they have time", and those with constant "computer problems", email is hardly the medium to be sending critical information unless you know for sure the person will read and respond.  Further, and perhaps this is part of the issue, it is exactly those who are fundamentally "disconnected" who are also generally "participation challenged".

and...

...

...it's already online, and accessible from any decent cell phone, tablet, or your local library.

"That Others May Zoom"

caphornbuckle

There's a difference between Monthly Safety Education Training and a Safety Briefing.  Safety Briefings are what is done at an activity or mission.  Safety Education Training is what is done at the unit level on a monthly basis.

Safety Education Training requires interaction.  This means all parties involved in the training must participate in order to receive credit.  That is why there is a quiz at the end of each electronic safety training.  A post on a bulletin board does not qualify for the monthly requirement.  The Safety Beacon itself cannot be used as part of the Safety Education Training but articles from it can as long as everyone is participating.  These can also be made up with a phone call to the individual who misses the training.  Email and other forms of sending out information do not qualify for the training unless it has some form of interaction.

It's kind of like having a 15-minute roundtable discussion on a specific subject.  It can discuss current mishaps, Operational Risk Management, or anything else.  The commander can also approve outside safety training programs for compliance.

A Safety Briefing is a topic given specific to an activity.  Locations of fire exits and rally points, hazardous areas, weather report, etc.  Then there is the sub-briefing (ORM) for an activity within the activity (confidence course, O-Ride at encampment, etc).  This is not usually  interactive.  It's the briefer telling the audience what is going on.
Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP

FW

Samuel, I think that is understood however, Safety Briefings are filling the requirements for being "Safety Current".  The Briefings I've been to were interactive.  I would even venture to say that all safety briefings should be interactive.  IMHO, it would foster our safety culture.  It would also make safety an integral part of our overall training missions. And, it may make better sense for our overall safety training.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Eclipse on May 26, 2011, 10:51:57 PM
... decent cell phone, tablet ...



You will be happy to hear that I have verified that the strange and stupid way they have done online safety briefings does not work on my iOS devices. You and your little green robot win for now >:D.

davidsinn

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 27, 2011, 12:09:47 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 26, 2011, 10:51:57 PM
... decent cell phone, tablet ...



You will be happy to hear that I have verified that the strange and stupid way they have done online safety briefings does not work on my iOS devices. You and your little green robot win for now >:D .

Well he did say decent device. >:D
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Eclipse

Quote from: caphornbuckle on May 27, 2011, 05:40:35 AM
Safety Education Training requires interaction.  This means all parties involved in the training must participate in order to receive credit.  That is why there is a quiz at the end of each electronic safety training.

The quiz at the end of the online briefings is there to insure people don't just lean a stapler on the mouse button and click through it without even looking at it.

There is no requirment that "all parties involved must participate", only that the opportunity be present (i.e. "any questions?")

Commanders, of course, are always allowed to make their lives unnecessarily complicated on their own volition, but let's not read more
into the intent or purpose here, which is a regular and efficient reminder of Safety 1st 3rd.

See page 2 of 62-1:

b. Safety Education: A presentation of a topic in a training environment where there is
interaction  and/or an assessment to measure comprehension and content retention. Safety
education provides lessons and process learning to promote a strong safety awareness and habit
pattern.

c. Operational Risk Safety Briefing: A briefing that discusses the associated risks and
possible risk mitigation with a particular activity and/or sub-activity about to be engaged in and
must be conducted "in-person" with the member(s) that is/are about to engage in such activity or
sub-activity.

d. In-Person: A session where a participant can interact, ask questions, and  can
contribute with other participants, the briefer, facilitator, or instructor.
  The participant does not
have to be physically at the same location, but the communications method must be interactive
between the participants and the educator/briefer.  This may be a meeting or session where
multiple participants are physically located in the same room and provided the ability to interact
in real time, ask questions and contribute to the meeting.  Participation in a meeting held using
telephonic or other technology that permits each participant to simultaneously hear and speak
with other participants also constitutes "in-person" attendance.


The requirement to allow for interaction is to avoid the scenario you indicate where someone shoots an email
or says "read the Sentinel".  I agree with that.  However there is nothing that says a unit CC could not build
a Google Form with questions about a Sentinel article, and use the correctly answered form as proof of the
Safety Education for that month. (In fact, that's a pretty good idea.)

Further, there is no requirement that everyone participate, only that they have the opportunity, which is available
in any sort of safety briefing.

"That Others May Zoom"

caphornbuckle

Quote from: Eclipse on May 27, 2011, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on May 27, 2011, 05:40:35 AM
Safety Education Training requires interaction.  This means all parties involved in the training must participate in order to receive credit.  That is why there is a quiz at the end of each electronic safety training.


See page 2 of 62-1:

b. Safety Education: A presentation of a topic in a training environment where there is
interaction  and/or an assessment to measure comprehension and content retention. Safety
education provides lessons and process learning to promote a strong safety awareness and habit
pattern.

c. Operational Risk Safety Briefing: A briefing that discusses the associated risks and
possible risk mitigation with a particular activity and/or sub-activity about to be engaged in and
must be conducted "in-person" with the member(s) that is/are about to engage in such activity or
sub-activity.

d. In-Person: A session where a participant can interact, ask questions, and  can
contribute with other participants, the briefer, facilitator, or instructor.
  The participant does not
have to be physically at the same location, but the communications method must be interactive
between the participants and the educator/briefer.  This may be a meeting or session where
multiple participants are physically located in the same room and provided the ability to interact
in real time, ask questions and contribute to the meeting.  Participation in a meeting held using
telephonic or other technology that permits each participant to simultaneously hear and speak
with other participants also constitutes "in-person" attendance.


The requirement to allow for interaction is to avoid the scenario you indicate where someone shoots an email
or says "read the Sentinel".  I agree with that.  However there is nothing that says a unit CC could not build
a Google Form with questions about a Sentinel article, and use the correctly answered form as proof of the
Safety Education for that month. (In fact, that's a pretty good idea.)

Further, there is no requirement that everyone participate, only that they have the opportunity, which is available
in any sort of safety briefing.

I refer you to the November 2010 Safety Beacon in reference to the use of the safety newsletter as a briefing. http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Beacon_11_2010_Final_Copy_34348AC853B80.pdf

Please note that there is a sentence in there that states "Your lessons should be educational and should come with questions to get feedback, and you should feel as an instructor that your members learned something from you when you are done."  Of course it says "should" but why wouldn't anyone do this anyways?  I am not reading into the regulation and yes saying MUST or REQUIRES instead of SHOULD was an error on my part.
Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: caphornbuckle on May 28, 2011, 04:03:41 AMI refer you to the November 2010 Safety Beacon in reference to the use of the safety newsletter as a briefing. http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Beacon_11_2010_Final_Copy_34348AC853B80.pdf

Please note that there is a sentence in there that states "Your lessons should be educational and should come with questions to get feedback, and you should feel as an instructor that your members learned something from you when you are done."  Of course it says "should" but why wouldn't anyone do this anyways?  I am not reading into the regulation and yes saying MUST or REQUIRES instead of SHOULD was an error on my part.

You don't have to refer me to it, I'm the one who is using that for the references above.
Any safety briefing worth the time to present it is "educational", and of course you say "any questions"?  But again, the requirement is not
to put on a 45 minute Disney "Carousel of Safety".  We actually have things besides "discussing" to do.

Brief, train, ask for input move on.

Safety 3rd.  Mission first.  Do it right and safe because it is the right thing to do.

"That Others May Zoom"

caphornbuckle

Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2011, 04:36:13 AM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on May 28, 2011, 04:03:41 AMI refer you to the November 2010 Safety Beacon in reference to the use of the safety newsletter as a briefing. http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Beacon_11_2010_Final_Copy_34348AC853B80.pdf

Please note that there is a sentence in there that states "Your lessons should be educational and should come with questions to get feedback, and you should feel as an instructor that your members learned something from you when you are done."  Of course it says "should" but why wouldn't anyone do this anyways?  I am not reading into the regulation and yes saying MUST or REQUIRES instead of SHOULD was an error on my part.

You don't have to refer me to it, I'm the one who is using that for the references above.
Any safety briefing worth the time to present it is "educational", and of course you say "any questions"?  But again, the requirement is not
to put on a 45 minute Disney "Carousel of Safety".  We actually have things besides "discussing" to do.

Brief, train, ask for input move on.

Safety 3rd.  Mission first.  Do it right and safe because it is the right thing to do.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, Eclipse.  As a matter of fact, I agree with how you interpret the regulation entirely.  My point is that giving safety education training is meant to have some meat to it.  Not just read something, ask for questions, and assume they got the point when it's all over.  Most people will just give you a deer in the headlights look and not have a clue what you said.  Does this constitute a Safety Education Training session?  Yes.  Does it serve a purpose?  No.  It just wastes everyones time just to meet a requirement.  Interaction is the only way for everyone to understand the purpose and keep them awake. 
Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: caphornbuckle on May 28, 2011, 04:47:57 AM
I'm not saying that you are wrong, Eclipse.  As a matter of fact, I agree with how you interpret the regulation entirely.  My point is that giving safety education training is meant to have some meat to it.  Not just read something, ask for questions, and assume they got the point when it's all over.  Most people will just give you a deer in the headlights look and not have a clue what you said.  Does this constitute a Safety Education Training session?  Yes.  Does it serve a purpose?  No.  It just wastes everyones time just to meet a requirement.  Interaction is the only way for everyone to understand the purpose and keep them awake.

OK, so we're actually on the same page.

The trouble is the presenter(s) and the materials, not to mention, seriously, how many times can you be told to drink water and wear sunscreen
before it becomes background noise and an impediment? 

The other risk is that the longer the presentation, the more risk of giving bad information.  I recently sat in a Safety briefing that
included several incorrect wives tales about health safety and incorrect information regarding the program itself.

The minute that happens, the whole thing goes out the window because your credibility is gone.

And yes, the slide-readers need to all be pushed into the ocean, but I don't know where you get relevant, fresh safety briefings.

In my CAP tenure I've sat in countless briefings about the proper operation of ice boots (we don't use those and I'm not a pilot),
and far too many sessions where someone is trying to make a political opinion-based statement about a behavior they don't like
vs. presenting factual information that is relevant to the audience and the activity.

"That Others May Zoom"

caphornbuckle

Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2011, 04:56:44 AM
Quote from: caphornbuckle on May 28, 2011, 04:47:57 AM
I'm not saying that you are wrong, Eclipse.  As a matter of fact, I agree with how you interpret the regulation entirely.  My point is that giving safety education training is meant to have some meat to it.  Not just read something, ask for questions, and assume they got the point when it's all over.  Most people will just give you a deer in the headlights look and not have a clue what you said.  Does this constitute a Safety Education Training session?  Yes.  Does it serve a purpose?  No.  It just wastes everyones time just to meet a requirement.  Interaction is the only way for everyone to understand the purpose and keep them awake.

OK, so we're actually on the same page.

The trouble is the presenter(s) and the materials, not to mention, seriously, how many times can you be told to drink water and wear sunscreen
before it becomes background noise and an impediment? 

The other risk is that the longer the presentation, the more risk of giving bad information.  I recently sat in a Safety briefing that
included several incorrect wives tales about health safety and incorrect information regarding the program itself.

The minute that happens, the whole thing goes out the window because your credibility is gone.

And yes, the slide-readers need to all be pushed into the ocean, but I don't know where you get relevant, fresh safety briefings.

In my CAP tenure I've sat in countless briefings about the proper operation of ice boots (we don't use those and I'm not a pilot),
and far too many sessions where someone is trying to make a political opinion-based statement about a behavior they don't like
vs. presenting factual information that is relevant to the audience and the activity.

Amen!

My main goal with safety is to make it fun as well as educational.  If it doesn't serve a purpose, it doesn't get mentioned.  The fact is that a Safety Presentation doesn't have to be boring.  Anyone ever heard of Richard Hawk?  He has a website http://www.makesafetyfun.com.  Some of the stuff he sends in his newsletters are ideas that we can use to make our training more interactive.  Of course, most of them have to be adapted to CAP considering they are mostly used in industrial safety.  If you want his books, though, you'll have to pay for them!
Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: FW on May 26, 2011, 09:03:10 PM
^ Yes. 
I've been to 3 events in the last 3 weeks.  There were formal safety briefings done at each.  A Sheet was handed out and signed so those present would be given "credit".  This is not a problem although, many more trees will be destroyed to make sign in sheets.... :D

The object is to make complience as painless as possible.  It looks pretty easy to me.  Should it be easier?
What I see is this is a big make work project for volunteers.  We would agree that the monthly safety education briefings expire after 1 month, yet have to be placed in a National CAP data base.  This takes time.  Also from my standpoint members' time should be spent on safety issues relating to CAP's operations  -- In other words concentrate on what our accident experience shows.   I'm not aware of ANY AF requirement that general safety topics be specifically briefed to individual personnel and documented in any record -- usually the safety office just send out 1 or 2 page flyers.  Surely job specific safety information communicated is likely documented in individual records.  Why does CAP find it so necessary to add so much administrative requirements and members' time developing & presenting this information :-\     I am definitely not against safety, BUT just feel that more simple and less time consuming methods can be utilized for the general safety material.
RM   

Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PMWhat I see is this is a big make work project for volunteers.  We would agree that the monthly safety education briefings expire after 1 month, yet have to be placed in a National CAP data base.  This takes time.

Yes, probably about 60 seconds to 2 minutes for a large squadron. Less time if you're using other automated tools to track attendance and
are familiar with the complex, yet highly rewarding function known as "copy & paste".

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
Also from my standpoint members' time should be spent on safety issues relating to CAP's operations
Yes, that is the point.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
I'm not aware of ANY AF requirement that general safety topics be specifically briefed to individual personnel and documented in any record[/qoute]
Irrelevant to CAP.  We don't know what the ARC, or PETA does either.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
definitely not against safety, BUT just feel that more simple and less time consuming methods can be utilized for the general safety material.
What is complicated about a 5-10 minute briefing?   Units are supposed to be tracking participation in meetings anyway for other mandates and a matter of course.  This is just re-purposing existing information for another use.

Presenting information and tracking compliance is the safety officer's job.

"That Others May Zoom"

RADIOMAN015

Comments are imbedded below:

Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2011, 04:17:40 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PMWhat I see is this is a big make work project for volunteers.  We would agree that the monthly safety education briefings expire after 1 month, yet have to be placed in a National CAP data base.  This takes time.

Yes, probably about 60 seconds to 2 minutes for a large squadron. Less time if you're using other automated tools to track attendance and
are familiar with the complex, yet highly rewarding function known as "copy & paste".

RM:  It's taking our Safety Officer much longer than that to post the training, I will have to ask him to show me how he does it.   The unit does not have an automated attendance system, most units don't.  On the cadet side they were inputting cadet attendance into what I thought was the wing management utility, because that has a bearing on achievements/promotions.  There's no reason to really do this for senior  members since meeting attendance is NOT really not necessary for all of them unless they have specific staff work that requires them to be there or to present a training class to the cadets or seniors. 

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
Also from my standpoint members' time should be spent on safety issues relating to CAP's operations
Yes, that is the point.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
I'm not aware of ANY AF requirement that general safety topics be specifically briefed to individual personnel and documented in any record[/qoute]
Irrelevant to CAP.  We don't know what the ARC, or PETA does either.

RM:  Quite to the contrary we are the official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, and really ONLY need to meet what they consider to be the minimum safety education & briefing requirements including documentation.  I'd emphasize "minimum" and volunteer unpaid labor.  If I remember correctly CAP-USAF HQ now has a civil service employee as the Safety Officer, so perhaps a review of this is in order.  Likely we are stuck with the system we now have due to the paid staff time spent developing it.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 01:51:42 PM
definitely not against safety, BUT just feel that more simple and less time consuming methods can be utilized for the general safety material.
What is complicated about a 5-10 minute briefing?   Units are supposed to be tracking participation in meetings anyway for other mandates and a matter of course.  This is just re-purposing existing information for another use.

RM:  No cigar for you, the minimum standard as we understand it is 15 minutes.  Our Safety officer does a great job BUT again most of this could be summarized on to one sheet of paper, likely printed on both sides.   

Presenting information and tracking compliance is the safety officer's job.
RM:  The issue as I see it is whether all this tracking really indicates an effective safety program.  I would think the safety officer needs to be moving around looking for safety issues, not stuck at a computer inputting information that expires in 1 month. 

Spaceman3750

There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2011, 08:42:22 PM
There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.
I think our safety officer mentioned that to me.  We've been running about 1/2 hour on these general safety briefings.   Probably a bit of overkill on his part/enthusiasm.  IF we can achieve this in 15 minutes, I would be very happy.  HOWEVER, again a simple one page summary on a safety issue can be read in less than 5 minutes, by most senior members.  As far as the cadet side, maybe the monthly safety briefing for them is a good idea.

RM       

HGjunkie

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
As far as the cadet side, maybe the monthly safety briefing for them is a good idea.   

Honestly, sometimes I feel that the new monthly safety thing is detracting from the rest of the CP. When it was once a quarter, there was more time to have beneficial classes and drill time, and we actually had a decent safety discussion. Now that it's once a month, we just embed it into our PT night and warn about weather conditions.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Larry Mangum

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2011, 08:42:22 PM
There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.
There was in the previous release of the Regulation.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

sneakers

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2011, 08:42:22 PM
There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.
I think our safety officer mentioned that to me.  We've been running about 1/2 hour on these general safety briefings.   Probably a bit of overkill on his part/enthusiasm.  IF we can achieve this in 15 minutes, I would be very happy.  HOWEVER, again a simple one page summary on a safety issue can be read in less than 5 minutes, by most senior members.  As far as the cadet side, maybe the monthly safety briefing for them is a good idea.

RM     


Good grief! I'd probably fall asleep after 20 minutes.

ßτε

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2011, 08:42:22 PM
There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.
See CAPR 62-1 para 3.e.(6)

NC Hokie

I have found that this resource in the hands of a cadet NCO does a pretty good job of meeting the monthly safety briefing requirement.  I don't know where it came from, but I truly wish that NHQ would make it official OR put one or two of these briefings in the monthly Safety Beacon to help local squadrons meet this requirement.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Eclipse

Quote from: ß τ ε on May 29, 2011, 03:11:13 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2011, 08:42:22 PM
There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.
See CAPR 62-1 para 3.e.(6)

You read that wrong.  It says per month, not per meeting or briefing.

(6) Develop a program of regular safety education and mishap prevention training for
the unit(s) to which they are assigned. They shall ensure that no less than 15 minutes per month
of safety education training is delivered to the membership at a unit meeting
.  This safety
education training will be documented in the National online safety database.


Also, Section 3e defines the Safety Officer's responsibilities, not the definition of what a briefing is, or the requirements
of an individual member to participate.  The SE must provide at least 15 minutes per month of Education.
Most units meet once a week, so the minimum per this reg would be 4 minutes per briefing per meeting, so the
typical 5-10  minutes meets the mandate.

However the members need only attend one session to be current, and it does not have to be at their home
squadron.


"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

Quote from: NC Hokie on May 29, 2011, 03:22:19 AM
I have found that this resource in the hands of a cadet NCO does a pretty good job of meeting the monthly safety briefing requirement.  I don't know where it came from, but I truly wish that NHQ would make it official OR put one or two of these briefings in the monthly Safety Beacon to help local squadrons meet this requirement.
I think that may have come out of Iowa Wing

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Eclipse on May 29, 2011, 04:55:31 AM
Quote from: ß τ ε on May 29, 2011, 03:11:13 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 28, 2011, 08:42:22 PM
There's nothing in the 62-1 to support your 15 minute minimum claim. Either you have a wing policy or someone made something up.
See CAPR 62-1 para 3.e.(6)

You read that wrong.  It says per month, not per meeting or briefing.

(6) Develop a program of regular safety education and mishap prevention training for
the unit(s) to which they are assigned. They shall ensure that no less than 15 minutes per month
of safety education training is delivered to the membership at a unit meeting
.  This safety
education training will be documented in the National online safety database.


Also, Section 3e defines the Safety Officer's responsibilities, not the definition of what a briefing is, or the requirements
of an individual member to participate.  The SE must provide at least 15 minutes per month of Education.
Most units meet once a week, so the minimum per this reg would be 4 minutes per briefing per meeting, so the
typical 5-10  minutes meets the mandate.

However the members need only attend one session to be current, and it does not have to be at their home
squadron.
Somehow I don't think they really meant a 3-4 minute briefing per meeting, more likely 15 minutes ONCE a month.  Personally I think if any unit had video capability, just record it.   I don't see why a member missing the meeting on that specific week couldn't just review the video the next time as long as the Safety officer was available to answer questions.  Again though it just involves more work.   Since we are a composite squadron the "Commander's Call" for the senior members is held once per month so the safety education briefing is held on that meeting date.
RM 

arajca

If you have internet connectivity, dealing with those who miss the safety education is easy. When they show up at the next meeting, sit them down with a computer and have them do one of the National safety education programs before they do anything else (including testing and opening ceremonies). If they've already done it, fine. After a few times, they will either start making the safety education meetings or doing the online ones at home/work/school/library/etc.

It is the unit's responsibilty to provide a safety education opportunity monthly. It is the member's responsibility to complete it. If they miss the unit provided one, they need to find another method.

Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 29, 2011, 01:30:08 PMSince we are a composite squadron the "Commander's Call" for the senior members is held once per month so the safety education briefing is held on that meeting date.

Well, there you go.  Seniors should be meeting more than once per month for training, re-currency, and professional development.  Once you point out
this deficiency and start scheduling the rest of the meetings you need, you can add more opportunities for the required training.

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

I'm not aware that seniors are required to meet more than once a month.  Granted, I'm not aware of any CAP units whose seniors meet on that schedule, but I've often thought that it would be more productive to have longer monthly meetings than the twice a month schedule common to many senior squadrons (and some senior components of composite squadrons). 

Eclipse

Its not a requirement, it's the only way to be successful.  It is nearly impossible to be fully engaged in CAP with only one or two meetings a month.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Eclipse on May 29, 2011, 03:52:24 PM
Its not a requirement, it's the only way to be successful.  It is nearly impossible to be fully engaged in CAP with only one or two meetings a month.

Why? Many other volunteer organizations work just fine with a once-a-month board conference call.

Eclipse

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on May 30, 2011, 12:46:52 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 29, 2011, 03:52:24 PM
Its not a requirement, it's the only way to be successful.  It is nearly impossible to be fully engaged in CAP with only one or two meetings a month.

Why? Many other volunteer organizations work just fine with a once-a-month board conference call.

We're not talking about anybody else, we're talking about us.  What others do is irrelevant.

Units that only meet once a month are generally leaning on the resources of other units or echelons for their members' participation and success,
or simply ignoring most of the program that "doesn't interest them".

It is impossible to be fully engaged at the level we expect and want our members to be with only one meeting a month.  In most of those cases
those members are treating CAP like a menu, selecting the few things they "feel like" doing and leaving the rest of the weight for "the other guy".

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

I think it depends on what you do with your time and the length of your meeting and the range of activities your unit normally participates in that you need to keep refreshed.  If I ever get super re-motivated about CAP, I've often thought of starting a senior unit in a nearby town that would meet only once a month for perhaps 3-4 hours on a Saturday morning.   

jimmydeanno

Many other volunteer organizations also don't have an active mission like Cadet Programs or Emergency Services.  Most volunteer organizations are passive in their approaches (creating media ads, fundraising, awarding scholarships, etc) - few actually do boots on the ground type stuff.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on May 30, 2011, 12:15:48 PM
I think it depends on what you do with your time and the length of your meeting and the range of activities your unit normally participates in that you need to keep refreshed.  If I ever get super re-motivated about CAP, I've often thought of starting a senior unit in a nearby town that would meet only once a month for perhaps 3-4 hours on a Saturday morning.

If the members are doing the majority of the administrative, training, and PD work outside those meetings, that is one thing, however if the only contact
time with those members is 3-4 per month, and the majority are new, you would be stuck in 1st gear permanently.

"That Others May Zoom"