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NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

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NCRblues

Quote from: lordmonar on April 25, 2015, 03:32:25 PM
The same as all those other organizations.

No, not the same. Not even close.

We have 2nd Lt Squadron/CC's, with ex Wing Kings as deputies. The "NCO's" of CAP will do the same thing as every other volunteer member.

(work hard in a basically thankless job, take out the trash at the end of the night, empty the coffee pot and the thousand other jobs we all do)

WIWAD, the NCO's and Officers didn't do much trash taking, the shoppett made the coffee, and some didn't even work that hard.

Stripes or bars, it makes no difference in CAP.

Not sure why we are even discussing this still as it has been made pretty clear the current NAT/CC isn't on board.

(BTW, how great is it to be at work and getting paid to CAPTALK huh?)
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

kwe1009

In the military there are jobs that only NCOs perform and jobs that only Officers perform (not just being commanders).  So what exactly will NCOs do that Officers will not do in CAP?  If there is no separation of duties then what exactly is the purpose of having a CAP NCO corp?  I have been trying to understand this since this new program came out. 

Al Sayre

Officers will get more zeros on their paychecks...   >:D
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Flying Pig

at least a check with zeros is still a check. :)

Ned

Quote from: Alaric on April 25, 2015, 02:36:50 PM
What will be the role of NCOs in our part time, volunteer organization where they will be far outnumbered by officers?

Sorry, missed your question somehow.  My bad.

And I hope you will forgive me for quoting myself, but I think it at least partially answers your question.

Quote from: Ned on March 12, 2015, 10:20:49 PM

Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If  we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and Tsgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI and SAV teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaisoning with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required."  8)

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).

Storm Chaser

Quote from: kwe1009 on April 25, 2015, 06:10:59 PM
In the military there are jobs that only NCOs perform and jobs that only Officers perform (not just being commanders).  So what exactly will NCOs do that Officers will not do in CAP?  If there is no separation of duties then what exactly is the purpose of having a CAP NCO corp?  I have been trying to understand this since this new program came out.

You bring some valid questions, but this could also be said of CAP officers. Many of the duties that CAP officers do are done by NCOs in the military. So what is the purpose of making every adult member a CAP officer?

Perhaps instead of trying to figure out the role of CAP NCOs, we should rethink the role of CAP officers. If CAP officers' functions are redefined as those roles involving managing, directing or commanding, then having a CAP enlisted force running the day-to-day training, programs and operations makes sense.

Garibaldi

Good gravy leg...this isn't as hard as it's made out to be, and others have touched on this in other related posts. I will add my two cents worth.

Officers: command structure, department heads (when available), pilots, mission command staff. Leaders. Administrators. Managers.

NCOs: worker bees, ground team leaders, instructors, administrative positions. Assistant-to's. Drivers. Observer/scanners (this can also be done by officers, but having an either/or opens up more possibilities). Freeing up the actual work from officers to do their jobs.

I also have a different grade structure in mind for Senior member airmen (age 18 to 22), grade being dependent on what age they join, college degrees, and what they WANT to do in the program. I have a chart somewhere with the requirements as I see them. It could work with some finessing. I mean, the state defense forces have strict requirements from their parent organizations regarding officerships and NCOs and whatnot, why don't we? Why CAN'T we?
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

JeffDG

Interesting, pilots are officers, but Observers (who are commonly the mission commanders) are not.

There's actually nothing about piloting that makes them inherently officer roles.

Garibaldi

How many NCOs are piloting military aircraft? They are usually crew chiefs, loadmasters, and other support roles. I see the observer as an adjunct of a pilot, doing everything BUT flying the plane. If a member wants to be a pilot, then fine, go through the officer training aspect. I never said observer/scanner is a sole NCO job in my scenario, but a job that can be done by both. Any room for a non-college graduate CFI-I? Absolutely, as there were a plenitude of non-college graduate pilots during WWII. Any room for a SNCO with a Master's Degree? Of course, as there are many NCOs in the Real Military with advanced degrees who either can't go to OTS/OCS or don't want to.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Storm Chaser

NCO
#349
Unlike the military, in CAP qualifications and duty assignments are not the same thing. In the Air Force, for example, an officer becomes a pilot and then assumes other additional duties or staff roles as he or she progresses in their career. An Air Force pilot does not get qualified as a navigator, loadmaster or crew chief. And if one of these becomes a pilot, they stop working on their previous roles.

In CAP, a member can be qualified as a GTL, MP, GBD, AOBD and IC regardless of grade or duty position. We could, in theory, restrict some of these qualifications to CAP officers, but I don't see that happening. If we had to divide functions between officers and NCOs (assuming we had enough NCOs), it's more likely that staff duties would be assigned depending on grade, but ES assignments would continue to be based on qualification.

kwe1009

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 28, 2015, 07:05:00 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on April 25, 2015, 06:10:59 PM
In the military there are jobs that only NCOs perform and jobs that only Officers perform (not just being commanders).  So what exactly will NCOs do that Officers will not do in CAP?  If there is no separation of duties then what exactly is the purpose of having a CAP NCO corp?  I have been trying to understand this since this new program came out.

You bring some valid questions, but this could also be said of CAP officers. Many of the duties that CAP officers do are done by NCOs in the military. So what is the purpose of making every adult member a CAP officer?

Perhaps instead of trying to figure out the role of CAP NCOs, we should rethink the role of CAP officers. If CAP officers' functions are redefined as those roles involving managing, directing or commanding, then having a CAP enlisted force running the day-to-day training, programs and operations makes sense.

I don't see that being a very good way to go in a volunteer organization.  To limit a volunteer's opportunities by creating a caste system like exists in the military has way more downside than upside.  We should not create artificial barriers for our volunteers who wish to serve.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: kwe1009 on April 28, 2015, 10:39:35 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 28, 2015, 07:05:00 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on April 25, 2015, 06:10:59 PM
In the military there are jobs that only NCOs perform and jobs that only Officers perform (not just being commanders).  So what exactly will NCOs do that Officers will not do in CAP?  If there is no separation of duties then what exactly is the purpose of having a CAP NCO corp?  I have been trying to understand this since this new program came out.

You bring some valid questions, but this could also be said of CAP officers. Many of the duties that CAP officers do are done by NCOs in the military. So what is the purpose of making every adult member a CAP officer?

Perhaps instead of trying to figure out the role of CAP NCOs, we should rethink the role of CAP officers. If CAP officers' functions are redefined as those roles involving managing, directing or commanding, then having a CAP enlisted force running the day-to-day training, programs and operations makes sense.

I don't see that being a very good way to go in a volunteer organization.  To limit a volunteer's opportunities by creating a caste system like exists in the military has way more downside than upside.  We should not create artificial barriers for our volunteers who wish to serve.

First of all, calling the division of roles between officers and enlisted a "caste system" is not fair to the thousands of service men and women, both officers and enlisted, who work in close collaboration to protect our nation and way of life. Second, what do you think the purpose of having different grades or ranks is if not to divide functions and responsibilities among members? If you're not going to perform a role or function associated with being an officer, then why do you need to be one at all? Grades and promotions for the sole purpose of recognition is a poor way of using a system that has been around for thousands of years to denote responsibility and authority.

FW

^ Sorry to hurt your sensibility, however "Caste System" is a perfectly accurate way to distinguish the divide between the officer and enlisted corps in the military. One can still be court martialed for "fraternization".  Yes, times may have made the divide blurred, but it's still there.

SarDragon

Caste system indeed.

The Navy used to have enlisted pilots, but the program was discontinued essentially because of the "us vs. them" attitudes that existed in the aviation community.

Similar attitudes existed when the LDO Aviator program was going. The college educated pilots weren't always welcoming to the non-college educated folks who were recruited from the NCO corps.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Al Sayre

^^+1

As to pilots as officers and not observers, there would be some precedent for Officer observers, for example AF Navigators/RIO's and Navy Flight Officers(NFO's).  Scanner and aerial photographer duties would be more in line with an NCO function.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Luis R. Ramos

Some out there may not like this, but during the Second World War at least, there were NCOs in some Air Forces flying as pilots. Our airplanes are not more complicated than those fighter airplanes. To the contrary, those fighter airplanes were more hi-tech than our Cessnas!

In bomber crews, the flight engineer was an NCO! And in more than one ocassion, an NCO brought back--piloted--a badly damaged bomber when the pilots were injured or disabled.

In other words, our pilots do not need to be officers. They can be NCOs.

Now if our airplanes were as complicated as today's fighters, I would rethink those comments...

(Ducking waiting for some of you to send stones, and comments like "What do ya know, ya ar not a pilot!"
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Garibaldi

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 29, 2015, 11:48:45 AM
Some out there may not like this, but during the Second World War at least, there were NCOs in some Air Forces flying as pilots. Our airplanes are not more complicated than those fighter airplanes. To the contrary, those fighter airplanes were more hi-tech than our Cessnas!

In bomber crews, the flight engineer was an NCO! And in more than one ocassion, an NCO brought back--piloted--a badly damaged bomber when the pilots were injured or disabled.

In other words, our pilots do not need to be officers. They can be NCOs.

Now if our airplanes were as complicated as today's fighters, I would rethink those comments...

(Ducking waiting for some of you to send stones, and comments like "What do ya know, ya ar not a pilot!"

Not arguing that point. My point, roundabout as though it may be, is that if we are to have a military hierarchy like our parents org, then the pilot ought to be an officer, just like in the Air Force. Or Navy. Or Marines. Army has a different system, with Warrant Officer and helo pilots, but their fixed wing drivers are officers. NCOs, to my mind, are in support roles augmenting the officers and acting on their behalf. Or did I miss something?
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Flying Pig

Army has loads of WO fixed wing pilots.

Luis R. Ramos

Then I will wait for someone to bring up the argument "Our parent organization flies jet airplanes and their pilots are officers. We have officer pilots. Therefore we must have jets!"

>:D
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Garibaldi

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 29, 2015, 01:15:34 PM
Then I will wait for someone to bring up the argument "Our parent organization flies jet airplanes and their pilots are officers. We have officer pilots. Therefore we must have jets!"

>:D

Since we are moving over to ACC, we just might. 8)
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things