Main Menu

NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

AirAux

Ned, ROTC is paying full tuition, and books and giving something like $300.00 a month after summer encampment and beginning the third year.. 

SarDragon

Quote from: AirAux on April 14, 2015, 11:49:40 PM
Ned, ROTC is paying full tuition, and books and giving something like $300.00 a month after summer encampment and beginning the third year..

That's assuming you can get through the first two years. That same deal, with a smaller stipend, was available when I went to Rutgers in 1967. OTOH, full ride scholarships were much harder to get.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Storm Chaser

#222
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 14, 2015, 07:02:02 PM
The focus of the discussion should be related to why its important to have one to be a CAP officer.  Not life in general.  So far, being a positive roll model for the cadets is all Ive seen mentioned.   So, with that.   I guess  the non-degree having NCOs will be drawing with crayons as they attempt to motivate cadets.

Who said you needed a college degree to be "a positive roll role model for the cadets"? What I and others said is that bashing college degrees as unnecessary and unimportant is not providing a good example to our cadets, many who may choose to pursue a college education. Or do you really think that saying things like "I don't need a fancy degree" is providing a good example to our cadets?

And by the way, you should have a little more respect towards our NCOs. All Air Force NCOs go through several levels of technical training and professional military education and are some of the most educated and professional in the world. In fact, not only do many of our NCOs have associate's and bachelor's degrees, a large number of them have master's degrees or higher as well. That, of course, is not what makes them good NCOs. But it certainly adds to their professional development.

lordmonar

And that gets us back to the point. 
Sure.  To do CAP no one needs a degree.  But by that same token to do CAP no one needs to be an officer or an NCO either.   

The idea of making CAP officers (and CAP NCOs) more like our USAF comrades will go a long way in improving our relationship with the USAF.

A fix all?   Hell no!  But IMHO it would make it better. 

YMMV
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LSThiker

For those interested.  These numbers reflect the USAF only:

QuoteOfficer Academic Education
61.8% of officers have advanced or professional degrees
49.6% have master's degrees
10.4% have professional degrees
1.8% have doctorate degrees

Company Grade Officers
37.3% of company grade officers have advanced degrees
29.2% have master's degrees
7.7% have professional degrees
0.4% have doctorate degrees

Field Grade Officers
94% of field grade officers have advanced degrees
77.3% have master's degrees
13.1% have professional degrees
3.5% have doctorate degrees

Enlisted Academic Education
61% completed some college
24.1% have associate's degrees
8.1% have bachelor's degrees
1.5% have master's degree
0.018% have professional degrees

Airmen Tier
80.67% have some college
4.971% have associate's degrees
3.117% have bachelor's degrees
0.103% have master's degree
0.002% have professional degrees

NCO Tier
53.70% some college
37.112% have associate's degrees
8.070% have bachelor's degrees
1.023% have master's degree
0.014% have professional degrees

Senior NCO Tier
11.59% some college
53.084% have associate's degrees
26.866% have bachelor's degrees
8.362% have master's degrees
0.093% have professional degrees

QuoteSource of commission
42.7% commissioned through Reserve Officer Training Corps
22.8% commissioned through the Air Force Academy
17.1% commissioned through Officer Training School
17.5% commissioned through other sources (direct appointment, etc.)

RiverAux

Obviously we're shooting too low -- Masters should be the minimum level for
CAP officers and some college time is needed for NCOs.   >:D

FW

Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2015, 01:25:25 AM
And that gets us back to the point. 
Sure.  To do CAP no one needs a degree.  But by that same token to do CAP no one needs to be an officer or an NCO either.   

The idea of making CAP officers (and CAP NCOs) more like our USAF comrades will go a long way in improving our relationship with the USAF.

A fix all?   Hell no!  But IMHO it would make it better. 

YMMV

I appreciate the comment, however I would love to understand how the USAF will feel better with CAP by "making CAP officers and NCO's more like our USAF comrades"?  I do understand the AF members of the BoG, and the USAF have bought into the plan. I just can't imagine how this change will effect our "relationship".   When it comes down to it, IMHO it's what we do that counts; not what we wear on our shoulders/sleeves.....

RiverAux

The thing is that many AF officers (and NCOs) are getting degrees that probably have some general degree of relevance to their Air Force career.  Sure, some may have underwater basketweaving, but I'd bet that in general a higher percentage of AF officers have degrees with some amount of relevance to AF operations than CAP officers do. 

That being the case, it is easy to understand why degrees for AF officers probably actually help the AF work a little better.  I really don't see how that works out for CAP at all except for a few specialized situations.  For example, accountants that become finance officers, lawyers, doctors (acknowledging that their degrees are relevant to their CAP career but that they are generally prevented from using those skills in aid of CAP). 

PHall

Quote from: RiverAux on April 15, 2015, 03:16:17 AM
The thing is that many AF officers (and NCOs) are getting degrees that probably have some general degree of relevance to their Air Force career.  Sure, some may have underwater basketweaving, but I'd bet that in general a higher percentage of AF officers have degrees with some amount of relevance to AF operations than CAP officers do. 

You are mistaken kind sir.  The vast majority of NCO's that get a BS or BA get them in majors that don't relate to their current jobs.
Either because there is not a match for their current job or because they're prepping for retirement and get a degree that will help them there.
Now the Associates Degree they get from CCAF, that is directly related to their job.

lordmonar

#229
Quote from: RiverAux on April 15, 2015, 03:16:17 AM
The thing is that many AF officers (and NCOs) are getting degrees that probably have some general degree of relevance to their Air Force career.  Sure, some may have underwater basketweaving, but I'd bet that in general a higher percentage of AF officers have degrees with some amount of relevance to AF operations than CAP officers do.
Nope....not even close.

Had a Lt Col Chief of Maintenance (comm) who had a BA in Marine Biology.  And while to be competitive ROTC cadets are usually in the hard sciences/Engineering.....many do switch majors after they are contract when their chosen degree turns out to be too hard.    Same story for OTS officers.   Just because you have a BS in Atomic Physics does not mean you are going to be assigned an to the Atomic Physics Department in the Air Force.

And the few degrees that would actually have some bearing on being a leader and manager.....are not considered very competitive for any the commissioning programs.

Bottom line....is that the Air Force has considered a BA/BS as simply the gate keeper for entry into the officer corps.    Some degrees have some bearing on whether a person gets a slot or not.....but it has almost zero bearing on their job (yes there are some exceptions...but those are not the norm in my experience).

That said.....how will making our officer and NCO corps match the USAF standard help CAP?    One example......generally speaking.....people with more education are simply better leaders.   I know this is not universally true....but generally speaking......it is.   Getting a higher education just makes you better then not getting one.

Second.....the perception of USAF personnel is that CAP officers are more or less posers.    A GED and six months and you are a 2d Lt...........the lowliest Airman will laugh in the face of any CAP 2d Lt he meets.   We are simply not real officers.

Third.....and let's all be honest here......if we want to make rank mean something, we need to make our people work for it.  Anything given away too freely is not respected by the recipient or by others.   And let's be honest....CAP more or less just gives rank away.   If we make it hard...and once others understand we had to work for it.....that in and of itself will help us earn respect.

Having said all that.....yep I understand that stealing the USAF model whole hog is simply not going to work CAP.   But.......that dose not mean we can't take some of the good parts and use them to advantage.

And.....on the other side.........if it is not worth the effort.....we can not do it.  We can keep (or return to) the status quo and CAP will still be here, CAP will still be doing the mission and we will just have another chapter in our history books of "we tried XYZ and it did not work".   The world ain't going to end because of CAP ranks.


PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

I've asked various officers in the military (all services) what they use(d) their degree(s) for in their military job(s).  The vast majority have said "not much". A frequent response is that their degree makes for a nice hobby, or possibly a second career, if they can stay somewhat current in the field.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Al Sayre

When I was on AD, most of our officers (pilots) did not have degrees in anything remotely related to their jobs.  Out of the 100 to 200 I worked with, I remember 3 or 4 that had music degrees, a bunch of history, political science, business and accounting majors, and a very few with various engineering degrees (mostly civil or mechanical).  I remember 1 pilot who had a degree in aeronautical engineering, and 1 who had a commercial aviation degree.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

FW

Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2015, 05:02:40 AM

Third.....and let's all be honest here......if we want to make rank mean something, we need to make our people work for it.  Anything given away too freely is not respected by the recipient or by others.   And let's be honest....CAP more or less just gives rank away.   If we make it hard...and once others understand we had to work for it.....that in and of itself will help us earn respect.

Having said all that.....yep I understand that stealing the USAF model whole hog is simply not going to work CAP.   But.......that dose not mean we can't take some of the good parts and use them to advantage.

And.....on the other side.........if it is not worth the effort.....we can not do it.  We can keep (or return to) the status quo and CAP will still be here, CAP will still be doing the mission and we will just have another chapter in our history books of "we tried XYZ and it did not work".   The world ain't going to end because of CAP ranks.

Now you have said something I can agree with.  There have been many great suggestions on improving our grade structure (rank is a seniority system).  Setting realistic and definite requirements for promotion is a great idea; something our friend Eclipse has recommended on numerous threads. CAP is known for dolling out grades like penny candy on occasion, and except for certain positions, I rather a member earn grade.  Value is placed on things earned; not given.  Setting the bar at a college degree is something different.  During my tenure as a leader in CAP, I never came across a USAF airman or officer who didn't "respect" me for my grade or position;  I always felt as a comrade

AirAux

Is there any possibility that in this so called attempt to align with the Air Force that the Uniform standards will change to go along with the Air Force and there will no longer be Grays/whites?  Maybe we will all conform to Air Force weight and grooming standards or be released from duty??  When things are done in the shadows, paranoia abounds?  How could we possibly roll out the NCO program without some forethought and actual planning as to what the whole game is to be?  I think they know a lot more than they want to reveal.   

LSThiker

Quote from: PHall on April 15, 2015, 03:53:06 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 15, 2015, 03:16:17 AM
The thing is that many AF officers (and NCOs) are getting degrees that probably have some general degree of relevance to their Air Force career.  Sure, some may have underwater basketweaving, but I'd bet that in general a higher percentage of AF officers have degrees with some amount of relevance to AF operations than CAP officers do. 

You are mistaken kind sir.  The vast majority of NCO's that get a BS or BA get them in majors that don't relate to their current jobs.
Either because there is not a match for their current job or because they're prepping for retirement and get a degree that will help them there.
Now the Associates Degree they get from CCAF, that is directly related to their job.

Agreed. Even on the officer side, most officers do not have degrees that relate to their job. I have known infantry officers with degrees in biology. I have known an Engineer Officer that had a degree in biology. I have known transportation officers that have degrees in psychology.  I have known Quartermaster officers with degrees in history.  I have known a chemical officer that had a degree in communication and a signal corps officer with a degree in economics. 

Unfortunately, degrees that are somewhat relevant to the Army are seen as less competitive in the Accessions Process. That is a degree in healthcare management would be relevant to a medical service corps officer.  Degree in organizational leadership would be relevant to an infantry officer.

I had a BC that walked into the education office and asked what was the easiest and fastest major to get his master's degree.  He did not care what it was in.  He simply just need a master's degree so he could get picked up for LTC. 

Storm Chaser

The Air Force doesn't require college degrees for commissions and certain promotions because they're necessarily related to the service member's Air Force specialty, but because of the other benefits that come with a college education. For example, many college graduates tend to have better communications skills, both written and verbal. While not every college graduate may be good at this, and these skills can certainly be acquire outside of college, the amount of papers and presentations required by many universities and degree programs certainly prepare those who go through those programs better. The ability to do research and develop analytical skills is another benefit of working on a degree. It certainly requires commitment, discipline and time management to complete a degree. Other skills learned are note-taking, prioritizing, multi-tasking, working independently and with others, working under pressure, among others.

All these skills, of course, can be learned outside of college. But how long can it take to learn these on your own or through work experience? Most recent college graduates are around 22 years old. Without college, it would take these folks many more years to learn some of these skills that can be learned in college. In fact, I bet that most of the members here boasting about how successful they are without a college degree are not in their early to mid twenties, but much older. There's a reason for that.

AirAux

I am not apposed to College degrees.  I am apposed to them being the threshold to come on Board as an Officer.  1971 I was 31 years old.  I had attended 5-6 colleges and had about 60 credits, no degree.  I still have my Promotion picture from the St. Valentines dance we had in Florida.  It took six months and I had to shave off my mustache, no matter how in Reg it was.  I was wearing my Air Force Blues with my solo wings.  I was very proud as was my wife.  I became PAO for Group 5 in Florida.  34 years later, I am an old Lt.Col. that can no longer wear Air Force Blues.  I also have over 14 years of college with 4 degrees, three of which are advanced.  If I had to have a degree in 1971, I would not have joined CAP.  If I had a degree in 1971, I would have joined the Air Force.  I think I have done well with my private as well as my CAP career.  The need for boundries may not be a good thing..  On the one hand, CAP is pushing for more inclusion, like from the inner city group.  On the other hand they are talking about less inclusion by limitations.  Is it just me, or is there no longer any common sense anywhere??   

ZigZag911

Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2015, 01:25:25 AM
And that gets us back to the point. 
Sure.  To do CAP no one needs a degree.  But by that same token to do CAP no one needs to be an officer or an NCO either.   

The idea of making CAP officers (and CAP NCOs) more like our USAF comrades will go a long way in improving our relationship with the USAF.

A fix all?   Hell no!  But IMHO it would make it better. 

YMMV

Let's examine this notion of making ourselves more like USAF.

CAP was founded on the premise that those who could not meet the standards of the regular military (Army Air Corps, before there even was a USAF!) still had a contribution to make to the service of the nation.

Perhaps teaching the officers and enlisted personnel a bit of history of their Auxiliary -- which pre-dates them-- would also help alleviate misunderstanding.


Storm Chaser

Quote from: ZigZag911 on April 15, 2015, 03:48:05 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 15, 2015, 01:25:25 AM
And that gets us back to the point. 
Sure.  To do CAP no one needs a degree.  But by that same token to do CAP no one needs to be an officer or an NCO either.   

The idea of making CAP officers (and CAP NCOs) more like our USAF comrades will go a long way in improving our relationship with the USAF.

A fix all?   Hell no!  But IMHO it would make it better. 

YMMV

Let's examine this notion of making ourselves more like USAF.

CAP was founded on the premise that those who could not meet the standards of the regular military (Army Air Corps, before there even was a USAF!) still had a contribution to make to the service of the nation.

Perhaps teaching the officers and enlisted personnel a bit of history of their Auxiliary -- which pre-dates them-- would also help alleviate misunderstanding.

That is true. It's also true that CAP didn't fall initially under the Air Force (or Army Air Forces), but under the Office of Civilian Defense. Perhaps instead of trying to get closer to the Air Force (and wearing Air Force-style uniforms, insignias, grades and titles) we should realign our organization with another agency such as the Department of Homeland Security. Maybe we should be the FEMA Auxiliary instead. I'm fine either way. But I don't think we should follow the Air Force model for some things (those that make us look and feel good) and not for others (those that make us have to work a bit harder to earn those other things we like).

If we're going to continue being the Air Force Auxiliary, then aligning ourselves with our parent service (within reason, as we're not a Uniformed Service, but a civilian auxiliary) is not a bad thing. I don't really care if they require new officers to have a degree or not, but I do favor increased requirements for initial appointment to 2d Lt and subsequent promotions within the officer corps. Why? Because if being a Lt Col wearing silver oak leaves in an Air Force-style uniform doesn't mean what most people think being a Lt Col means, then why call it Lt Col and why use the same type of insignia?

LSThiker

Quote from: AirAux on April 15, 2015, 02:46:11 PM
If I had to have a degree in 1971, I would not have joined CAP.  [snip]  On the one hand, CAP is pushing for more inclusion, like from the inner city group.  On the other hand they are talking about less inclusion by limitations.  Is it just me, or is there no longer any common sense anywhere??

So you would have only joined CAP if you could be an officer?  Am I understanding you correctly?  As the way I understand it, which this is still just rumor and I do not really believe it until I hear more concrete talk, is that if you have a degree you may pursue the officer route.  However, if you do not, you may only pursue the NCO route. 

If this actually pans out, having a degree is not necessarily being less inclusive.  Rather, it is just a method to decide which route is pursued after joining CAP.  No one, from the rumors, is saying that if you do not have a degree, then you cannot join CAP.  I guess it is only less inclusive if you do not want to be an NCO. 

Heck, I could not care less if CAP made every one NCOs except commanders and specific wing and above staff.  I will keep driving on with my historian reports even as a SNCO.  I guess that would save my arm from having to salute to all the bloody time.