Question about ribbons on blues

[vmstan]

This is probably a silly question, but I'm new When you're wearing your blues, with a jacket, do you still wear ribbons, badges and rank epaulets on the shirt under the jacket?

[AirAux]

Only if you want to be extremely uncomfortable and look like a dweeb..In other words no.  You normally don't remove the Blue jacket  when you are wearing it..or if you do, you just have the shirt and tie on..in you office..

[Eclipse]

If you don't wear insignia on the shirt, you can't take the jacket off, as you would be out of uniform.

Most people wear grade slides, a nameplate, and badges on the shirt under a service jacket, but not ribbons.

In your case it would be CAP cutouts on the shirt collar and nothing on the shoulders of the jacket or shirt until you make 2d Lt.

[kd8gua]

But why would a SM(WOG) wear the CAP cutouts on the shirt collar AND the service coat lapels? We aren't the Marines...

[vmstan]

I thought we wore blank gray shoulder epaulets?

I'm sure Eclipse meant jacket collar.

[Hawk200]

But why would a SM(WOG) wear the CAP cutouts on the shirt collar AND the service coat lapels? We aren't the Marines...

Because the Manual says "Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleevewear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar."

It doesn't say "unless the service coat is worn". If you're a SMWOG, and you're not wearing them, you're in violation of the manual. If you're advocating that a SMWOG not wear them when the manual clearly states that it's required, you're wrong.

Does it make sense to do so? Not really. But picking and choosing what you wish to obey is wrong. Personally, I don't even think they should be on the collars at all for SMWOG or NCOs, for either blues or BDUs. But I don't have a choice in the matter.

[Hawk200]

I thought we wore blank gray shoulder epaulets?

I'm sure Eclipse meant jacket collar.

No, you don't. The blank shoulder epaulet was designed for pinning NCO stripes, not as a "placeholder" for SMWOGs. It's not a rank insignia by itself.

[Eclipse]

I thought we wore blank gray shoulder epaulets?

I'm sure Eclipse meant jacket collar.

Nope - SMWOG do not wear blank epaulets - those are supposedly for Senior NCO's to pin on thier USAF grade.

Hawk has is right above.

[kd8gua]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats? No, therefore, why should SMWOG and SMNCOs have another set of uniform rules? SMWOGs wear collar insignia while wearing the blues shirt only. When wearing the service coat, just like cadets do, the collar insignia is placed on the lapels.

[Eclipse]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats?

Yes, they do.

In fact, your whole message makes no sense.

No insignia is changed on the shirt or jacket just because you are wearing one or the other.

US stays on the jacket at all times, "CAP" stays on the collar.

[jimmydeanno]

This is probably a silly question, but I'm new When you're wearing your blues, with a jacket, do you still wear ribbons, badges and rank epaulets on the shirt under the jacket?

When I'm wearing my service coat, I'll have my epaulet sleeves and nametag on.  I won't wear ribbons or the specialty badges.  In that way, I have the option of taking off my coat if I choose to.

[jimmydeanno]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats?

Yes, they do.

Never seen that before in my 13 years in the program, ever.

[Eclipse]

^ The mini badges are a nice option for this.

[SilverEagle2]

I wear my epaulets, name plate, and mini wings under my service dress to have the option as well.

[kd8gua]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats?

Yes, they do.

In fact, your whole message makes no sense.

No insignia is changed on the shirt or jacket just because you are wearing one or the other.

US stays on the jacket at all times, "CAP" stays on the collar.

Cite please. I have the 39-1 and all applicable ICLs in front of me.

[jimmydeanno]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats?

Yes, they do.

In fact, your whole message makes no sense.

No insignia is changed on the shirt or jacket just because you are wearing one or the other.

US stays on the jacket at all times, "CAP" stays on the collar.

Cite please. I have the 39-1 and all applicable ICLs in front of me.

I agree.  Just looking at the picture on page 17 of 39-1 shows that the insignia is only worn on the jacket, not the shirt...

[MIKE]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats?

Yes, they do.

In fact, your whole message makes no sense.

No insignia is changed on the shirt or jacket just because you are wearing one or the other.

US stays on the jacket at all times, "CAP" stays on the collar.

That's not what the photos of cadets in service dress would have you believe.  Their collars are devoid of insignia.

[Eclipse]

Nope, I'm wrong on the cadets, but not on the seniors.

[Hawk200]

Hawk, I'm saying when a SMWOG wears a service coat in blues. The US insignia is replaced by CAP insignia. Do cadets wear insignia on their collars and their lapels while in blues with service coats? No, therefore, why should SMWOG and SMNCOs have another set of uniform rules? SMWOGs wear collar insignia while wearing the blues shirt only. When wearing the service coat, just like cadets do, the collar insignia is placed on the lapels.

The manual does not state "Wear insignia on collar unless service coat is worn."

Yes, I know the photos don't show it for cadets, so on that note there may be legitimate argument. I will concede that as far as cadets are concerned. However, for seniors it's not demonstrated (as in a photo) or given in writing as allowable to forgo collar insignia. And uniforms are the least issue when it comes to different rules for seniors and cadets.

The letter of the reg is that it be worn. As to the spirit, we don't really know the intention of the original drafters of the pub. To be correct, the collar insignia needs to be worn on shirt/blouse.

Now, we could argue it, or we could do the smart thing and comply, while making the effort to change it. 39-1 is due for a rewrite, so now would probably be a good time.

[Eclipse]

What amazes me is that despite the fact they are never mentioned in 39-1, nor pictured anywhere, and are basically a specialty
item at Vanguard, we still have new members all over the place wearing those !@#$ blank grade sleeves, and commanders
all over the place who don't know better, either.

[Hawk200]

What amazes me is that despite the fact they are never mentioned in 39-1, nor pictured anywhere, and are basically a specialty item at Vanguard, we still have new members all over the place wearing those !@#$ blank grade sleeves, and commanders all over the place who don't know better, either.

It boils down to the same problem: people won't read, they insist on being spoon fed. If nobody told them it's wrong, then it can't be (in their reasoning).

Personally, I'd be all for a grey epaulet sleeve with something on it (in other words not blank) to denote SMWOGs without grade. I don't feel it's right to go punching holes in the collar for only six months worth of wear. And I know a number of people (myself included) that only used one shirt, and then donated it to the unit for cadet use when the promotion came.

[Eclipse]

Ditto on the shirt - some of the blues shirts are made of a "self-healing" material, but not all of them, and most white aviators will have holes forever.

This is why, despite the mandate to have aviator whites or blues, I recommend the golf shirt until 2d Lt.

[kd8gua]

While I'm not going to argue one way or another in this post, I do want to bring to your guys' attention the 39-1 has very little wording differences between cadets and seniors when it comes to blues and collar/lapel insignia.

For cadets without grade and cadet airmen/NCOs, they wear collar insignia (be it CAP cutouts for C/AB or dual chevrons) when wearing the shirt.

For cadet airmen wearing the service coat (including C/AB), the insignia is worn on the lapels of the service coat. It does not state (in any combination of terms or wording) that collar insignia should be removed OR left on when wearing the service coat.

For cadet officers wearing the shirt, the blue CAP shoulder marks with metal mini grade are worn. No collar signia.

For cadet officers wearing the service coat, cadet shoulderboards/full size insignia are worn plus CAP cutouts on the lapels.

For Seniors w/o grade and SM NCOs wearing blues shirt, CAP cutouts are worn on the collar.

For Seniors w/o grade and SM NCOs wearing the service coat, CAP cutouts are worn on the lapels. It does not state (in any combination of terms or wording) that collar insignia should be removed OR left on when wearing the service coat.

For Senior officers in blues shirt, gray epaulets and no cutouts, and when wearing service coat, gray epaulets and US cutouts on the lapel.

I made my argument earlier on the basis of devil's advocate of what was appropriate when I wore blues as a cadet. As I state in this post, no wording is in the 39-1 regarding wear of collar insignia while wearing a service coat. Both the cadet and senior rules for members without grade and NCO members are worded similarly. Is this another case of 39-1 not being complete?

[flyboy53]

I appreciate your pride and enthusiasm.

Just a simple suggestion, though, be conservative in terms of your uniform...it presents a better image. So, no, don't wear everything on the shirt you wear under your dress blues. Besides, you'll be more comfortable, you won't be spending a lot of money replacing ribbons as they become soiled, and the holes poked in your shirts will be kept to a minimum. Remember, also, that ribbons are optional on shirts.

Back in the 1970s when I went through Air Force Basic Training, my TI suggested that the dress jacket be decked out with all the ribbons and badges and keep it to the minimum required for shirts. I found his suggestion to be correct once I was in the situation where I wore dress uniforms on a daily basis. Besides, you didn't have to spend a lot of time arranging things before you put the shirt on, and the dress jacket was already set up, hanging in the closet.

[kd8gua]

FWIW, the Knowledgebase seems to err on the side of Hawk and Eclipse, with insignia on both the coat and the shirt. Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wear that many CAP cutouts at one time...

[Eclipse]

I'm going to come 1/2-way back on my saying I'm wrong - I don't see any guidance that says take it off the collar, though I'll grant that the one photo which shows an NCO in a service coat shows no collar insignia, that photo is obsolete as well in that it only shows one insignia.

I know I've seen it worn on the shirt and jacket at the same time.

Col. Boylan, the GAWG/CC appears to have seen it that way as well:

Currently, CAP Enlisted Cadets wear their grade insignia on their shirt collars of the
blue Air Force Uniform with the side of the insignia parallel to the front of the collar.
When cadets reach the senior NCO grades (MSGT, SMSGT and CMSGT), the points of
these insignia are directed towards the cadet's neck and Jugular Vein. Because of the
size of the insignia, and the fact that many of our cadets are small, this could allow the
point of the insignia to be resting against the skin of the Cadet's neck. This "is" a safety
concern because the point is sharp, and given the proper circumstance, could easily
cause injury to a cadet. On the Service Coat, the cadet Enlisted Insignia is worn
straight up and down. When the service coat is worn, it causes an awkward
appearance between the coat and the shirt collar, since one set of insignia is going one
way and the other set is ninety degrees off.

While I think the safety issue mentioned is not actually a problem, its clear that others have seen it worn
this way, and further no one who commented issued any correction to the bolded assertion.  At a minimum
this is another place 39-1 needs clarification.

There should be a member-vetted, clear and correct photo of every possible combination of uniform, cadet and senior,
that can be held up as the example for once and all.

Yes, I volunteer. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Marshalus, welcome to the ranks.

WIWASMWOG, I wore the CAP cutouts on the light blue shirt collar no matter if I had the blue service coat on or not, and also wore them on the collar of the blue waist-length jacket.

Now, when wearing the blues I usually wear the long sleeved shirt underneath with rank epaulettes, name tag and required tie.  I don't wear my ribbons, but I do wear my Observer wings.  The same goes for when I'm wearing the blue pullover sweater.

Personally, I don't think the blank grey epaulettes for SMWOG's are a bad idea.

I believe the white-on-blue cloth CAP cutouts on BDU/BBDU's should go the way of the dodo bird and be replaced with metal CAP cutouts (yes, I know cadets wear them too), except for CAP NCO's.  Most SMWOG's only wear them for a few months before getting their first rank anyway.

[Hawk200]

Personally, I don't think the blank grey epaulettes for SMWOG's are a bad idea.

I do, but only for the reason that it's blank. Put something on it, and I wouldn't have an issue. "OTC" is a possibility, but not all of our new members will be officers. I'm a little stuck on what it should be, but I don't care for a blank sleeve, I think it looks tacky.

I believe the white-on-blue cloth CAP cutouts on BDU/BBDU's should go the way of the dodo bird and be replaced with metal CAP cutouts (yes, I know cadets wear them too), except for CAP NCO's.  Most SMWOG's only wear them for a few months before getting their first rank anyway.

I would suggest none at all for seniors, NCO or otherwise. Like you said, for SMWOG it would only be a few months. After that, a senior probably won't have much need for them, unless they wear the CSU. I'm for ditching them altogether. The Air Force likes clean uniforms, no reason why we can't follow suit.

[Eclipse]

I'm a little stuck on what it should be, but I don't care for a blank sleeve, I think it looks tacky.

How about a dollar sign?

[raivo]

I do, but only for the reason that it's blank. Put something on it, and I wouldn't have an issue. "OTC" is a possibility, but not all of our new members will be officers. I'm a little stuck on what it should be, but I don't care for a blank sleeve, I think it looks tacky.

How about a standard CAP propeller?

[Al Sayre]

Naw, that goes on the beanie all new 'WOG's have to wear. 

[Eclipse]

I do, but only for the reason that it's blank. Put something on it, and I wouldn't have an issue. "OTC" is a possibility, but not all of our new members will be officers. I'm a little stuck on what it should be, but I don't care for a blank sleeve, I think it looks tacky.

How about a standard CAP propeller?

Actually, that's not a bad idea...

[Chappie]

I appreciate your pride and enthusiasm.

Just a simple suggestion, though, be conservative in terms of your uniform...it presents a better image. So, no, don't wear everything on the shirt you wear under your dress blues. Besides, you'll be more comfortable, you won't be spending a lot of money replacing ribbons as they become soiled, and the holes poked in your shirts will be kept to a minimum. Remember, also, that ribbons are optional on shirts.

Back in the 1970s when I went through Air Force Basic Training, my TI suggested that the dress jacket be decked out with all the ribbons and badges and keep it to the minimum required for shirts. I found his suggestion to be correct once I was in the situation where I wore dress uniforms on a daily basis. Besides, you didn't have to spend a lot of time arranging things before you put the shirt on, and the dress jacket was already set up, hanging in the closet.

I concur about the conservative approach.  I have noticed that USAF Officers tend not to wear their ribbons on their shirts -- enlisted do.  The ribbons are reserved for the service coat.   Spending a little more time in the USAF culture, I never wear ribbons on the shirt.   I do have one shirt that is reserved for those few CAP events that I wear ribbons (mostly cadet activities) so I do have a "holey" shirt (pun intended).  All the other shirts have the basics:   chaplain insignia/specialty badges and name plate...simple look.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When I wear the (usually short-sleeved) shirt without service coat, I do wear ribbons.

However, I got a set of Mil-Thin ribbons with magnetic attachment.  Helps a lot.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

How about a standard CAP propeller?

Or the CAP crest?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

39-1 is due for a rewrite, so now would probably be a good time.

By the time that happens, they better print it in large print so old guys like me will be able to read it.

[exFlight Officer]

When I wear the (usually short-sleeved) shirt without service coat, I do wear ribbons.

However, I got a set of Mil-Thin ribbons with magnetic attachment.  Helps a lot.

Mini-Thin ribbons with magnetic attachment ... where?

[jimmydeanno]

Mini-Thin ribbons with magnetic attachment ... where?

www.ultrathin.com

Magnetic Ribbons

UltraThin magnetics allow you to attach ribbons to your shirt without poking holes. Put them on or take them off as many times as you wish: you'll find no telltale holes left in the shirt. Magnetics are not for use on the service dress coat due to the increased fabric thickness nor with medal set. To order, check the box for magnetic fastener and add $4.00 to the "Additional Services" block on the order form

[Major Carrales]

Let's not start the "we need more" or "we need some new" insignia for SMWOGs.  It would be better if they wore less than more.

As for the question at hand, I wear epaulets, badges and nametags on the long sleeve servic dress shirt under the jacket...simply because, if I am called on to remove the jacket, I look like a CAP officer in proper uniform.

The comment made earlier that wearing insignia on the undershirt would make you look like a "dweeb" goes against the idea of being "always vigilant."  When in the proper setting, you best at least be prepared for the eventually of removing a jacket in what would have to be a semi-formal to formal setting that required the jacket to begin with.

[Chappie]

Let's not start the "we need more" or "we need some new" insignia for SMWOGs.  It would be better if they wore less than more.

As for the question at hand, I wear epaulets, badges and nametags on the long sleeve servic dress shirt under the jacket...simply because, if I am called on to remove the jacket, I look like a CAP officer in proper uniform.

The comment made earlier that wearing insignia on the undershirt would make you look like a "dweeb" goes against the idea of being "always vigilant."  When in the proper setting, you best at least be prepared for the eventually of removing a jacket in what would have to be a semi-formal to formal setting that required the jacket to begin with.

Again I concur....on the long-sleeve shirt -- when the jacket is removed -- I wear the epaulets/name tag/cross/and specialty badges...sans  ribbons   That way I am still in uniform.