Gray and white NB proposal.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.

Not trying to divert from Lieutenant Sinn's experimental project done with noble intent, but I would support this over trying to standardise the grey/whites.  Only my opinion, but I just have a hard time associating grey with aviation in the way blue has been ever since the Royal Air Force became an independent service with a blue uniform almost 100 years ago.

The only "air force" type uniform I can think of in grey was the former East German Air Force, which was basically their grey Army uniform with blue piping and rank insignia.

http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Photos9/tn21b.jpg

No offence intended to those who do like the grey/white.

A lot of older AF types still remember the "silvertans" (shade 193) fondly.  I'd go for an updated version of that.

My suggestions:

Blue three-line nameplate
Go back to pewter-shade metal appurtenances (wings, etc)
Blue rank slides with embroidered "CAP" (CAP cutouts on collar for SMWOG, metal pin-on chevrons for NCO's).
Current CAP "overseas" patch on left sleeve
Dark blue web belt, distinctive buckle with CAP crest
Tan flight cap with blue piping (I'd prefer the blue flight cap, but I'm trying to have minimal AF uniform items
Dark blue AF tie

Tan "Ike"-type jacket as a service coat, zip-up front, hidden button pocket flaps
"CAP" on each lapel
"Overseas" patch on left shoulder
Blue CAP rank slides
Cloth sleeve chevrons for NCO's

It would be a nod to our history, it would look good, and I don't see any way it would ruffle the AF's feathers since it wouldn't be using any of their uniform items (tie and belt aside).  Other than the three-line nameplate, it wouldn't mention anything about the Air Force.

http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_ike_jacket.html

By the way, I can watch "Strategic Air Command" over and over...and, occasionally, you can see Tony Nelson wearing silvertans on "I Dream Of Jeannie."

OK, Lieutenant, back to your grey/white project...sorry for the interruption...

[Thrashed]

I wear the AF style uniforms most of the time, so this is not directly from me.  I do have a polo shirt and nice medium gray dress slacks.  I will comment based on other senior members comments in my squadron.  Take this "hearsay" as you will.

I know one female that chose the gray/white over the blues because there was no hat/hair requirement.  She doesn't want to wear a hat. 

I don't like the fact that every one wears a different shade and material of gray pants, but if you make an official uniform pants, then the cost will double.  I got my gray pants on sale at JC Pennys.  One could go broke dealing with CAP, so I like the non-standard gray pants.  I buy my airline pilot "uniform" pants at JC Pennys too.  It saves me about $60 per pants and no one knows the difference. 

[davidsinn]

I do like the Ike jacket but think of the reason the AF gave for not liking the white and blues....That's why an Ike wouldn't work. I'm gonna stick with a standard jacket.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I do like the Ike jacket but think of the reason the AF gave for not liking the white and blues....That's why an Ike wouldn't work. I'm gonna stick with a standard jacket.

Even a tan Ike jacket?

Nowadays, how many associate that with the AF?

We'd more likely be confused with the California Highway Patrol...

But, what about a tan Service Dress coat?

http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_ike_jacket.html

[davidsinn]

I do like the Ike jacket but think of the reason the AF gave for not liking the white and blues....That's why an Ike wouldn't work. I'm gonna stick with a standard jacket.

Even a tan Ike jacket?

Nowadays, how many associate that with the AF?

We'd more likely be confused with the California Highway Patrol...

But, what about a tan Service Dress coat?

http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_service_dress_ike_jacket.html

It's not the color that's the problem. Think of a very fat guy in an Ike jacket. That's something you can never un-see. And now you are going to go try and poke out your minds eye

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Wrong link, actually, my bad...I meant to illustrate a non-Ike silvertan service dress.

http://usafflagranks.com/usaf_summer_service_dress_coat.html

[AirAux]

One of the problems with uniformity in the gray-white uniform is the lack of sizes in pants and shirts.  Some of our members need a "full" cut while others need a slim or tailored cut.  Same for pants, double pleated don't look good on full figures, while slim guys look great in double-pleats.  You are going to need to address these issues and you might as well do it up front..

[davidsinn]

One of the problems with uniformity in the gray-white uniform is the lack of sizes in pants and shirts.  Some of our members need a "full" cut while others need a slim or tailored cut.  Same for pants, double pleated don't look good on full figures, while slim guys look great in double-pleats.  You are going to need to address these issues and you might as well do it up front..

Keep pointing this stuff out. I'm taking notes.

[RiverAux]

Does anyone else but me think that it is somewhat unfortunate that this uniform (primarily worn by those that are overweight) features a white shirt given the general view that darker colors are "slimming"?  The simple fact is that there is no way to make someone that is obese look good in a tucked-in shirt.  Now, you could hide a lot more with an approved jacket for this uniform...

In any case, I am in favor of the standardization of the gray pants for both this and the polo shirt and the rest being proposed seems like a good idea.

[AirAux]

I agree with River and just keep thinking of the 300 pound EMT guy in white shirt with gray pants, with his belly sticking out.  The bad thing is that white shirts also show food spills like crazy along with sweat stains.  Not a pretty sight huh??  I don't know what the answer is, but how about a jacket like Jackie Gleason wore as a bus driver in the Honeymooners?  Kind of like an Ike Jacket, but it didn't look bad on a fat guy??

[jimmydeanno]

...The bad thing is that white shirts also show food spills like crazy along with sweat stains.

and why would people be walking around in a sweat stained food spilled shirt?  That in itself is a violation of our uniform regulations regardless of what uniform you wear...

I wouldn't exactly design a uniform based on the ability to hide powdered sugar or spaghetti sauce...

[Strick]

for a formal ocasion an IKE type jacket is a no go.......  lets keep it with todays fashion........

[AirAux]

The problem is that todays fashions are not designed for 250 pound field grade 60 year old officers.  The guys and girls in shape can wear AF Blue.  So what can we offer to the members needing the gray-white??

[Angus]

I think we tried this here once before, and I know Pylon was on the committee.  Should be a lot of ideas and reference materials around to help you not reinvent the wheel.  My only suggestion would be to switch from grey pants to khaki pants for the polo since grey can be hard to find.

There are people who already wear the grey BDU pants with the polo. 

Khaki would look nice if it were standard. However, with my idea you'd wear the same standard pants with both uniforms and it would match the new service jacket. I'm also thinking about optional gray BDU pants if you wish to wear the polo in an operational environment.

[billford1]

Gray BDU trousers are about the only way you'll get everyone in the Aviator Shirt crowd wearing the same color gray. They wouldn't look as good as my Haggar slacks which look more like corporate office attire. I'm for throwing in a New uniform option. How about blue BDU trousers with the polo? That would work good for a Ground Team. They would look uniform. If I could talk with CAP/USAF I would politely make the case that the TPU / CSU makes the wearer look more professional. In the corporate environment I work in no one wears anything less than dress attire. There's no common color code for dress gray slacks which means things will stay the  same as they've have been for the aviator shirt crowd. If I were the decision maker for the AF my choice would be to back time up a week and just leave things alone. Why bother with eliminating the CSU if in most places you don't have the CAP along side the AF folks on a daily basis. I wonder how the AF folks felt back in the days before all this corporate uniform stuff began. Long timers I know tell me the relationship was much better back in the 80s. The effort to drive everyone into gray will fail. Whatever Vanguard comes up with for gray slacks will be hard sell.

[arajca]

Let's throw the folks a bone - keep the black windbreaker, overcoat, and sweater. Just change the grade insignia to the grey epaulet slides.

[davidsinn]

Ok, Here's my team:

RogueLeader
arajca
Trung Si Ma
jacob
USAFaux2004

I've got jacob and arajca in the yahoo group already. I need the other three to please join and we'll get this party started. 

[Gunner C]

The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.

Yep - my dad wore it as did just about everyone else.  It's a good looking uniform, doesn't bear even the closest resemblance to the current AF wear, and could be easily updated with modern fabrics.  Remember, CAP used to wear this back in the 50s.

Ike jackets are a no-go.  You need a waist line for it.  No patches, please.  We're past that stage.  Going back to the CAP buttons (not the shiney stuff but the buttons we wore starting about 1967: similar to the AF buttons of the day but with the CAP crest in the middle.)  Going back to satin finished cutouts, badges, and wings would look good on this.

[biomed441]

^^^ That would be a great uniform, but theres obviously the issue of cost as well as having to come up with new cutouts that look like they belong on that uniform.  I dont see the NB jumping through hoops for that idea. Still a good uniform idea if for some reason we end up loosing the AF uniform though.

[arajca]

The khaki (also called suntans) with the blue Air Force Caps looks good. Catch Strategic Air Command with Jimmy Stewart on AMC or is it TCM one night and you'll see it. The uniform was beloved by the Air Corps/Air Force and chosen by Hap Arnold and John Curry as the uniform that they wanted to be buried in. And, so they were.

Yep - my dad wore it as did just about everyone else.  It's a good looking uniform, doesn't bear even the closest resemblance to the current AF wear, and could be easily updated with modern fabrics.  Remember, CAP used to wear this back in the 50s.

Ike jackets are a no-go.  You need a waist line for it.  No patches, please.  We're past that stage.  Going back to the CAP buttons (not the shiney stuff but the buttons we wore starting about 1967: similar to the AF buttons of the day but with the CAP crest in the middle.)  Going back to satin finished cutouts, badges, and wings would look good on this.

Let's try to minimize costs by not changing all the insignia as well. We have bright shineys now, lets keep them.