Save Ribbon

[Wallygator]

OK, Here is my quandary. I was a member of a ground team that helped to find a lady that was stuck in her car, out in the desert, for a day and a half. She turned out to be OK. So later I find out that the AFRCC has given the wing credit for a "save". I can not find a ribbon for a "save". I know that there is a ribbon for a "find", and there is a ribbon for "life saving" but i don't see one for a "save". What's the deal?

[Camas]

I've heard that term used for lifesaving so you might want to check with your personnel officer. I commend you and your team for your fine work in finding this lady; I'm sure she's going to think very highly of the Civil Air Patrol in the future.

[Hawk200]

There is no "save" ribbon. You should be awarded the "Find" ribbon.

[IceNine]

This is entriely unclear throughout the regs.

60-3 outlines Find, Distress Find, and Save.  But only defines award of find and distress finds.

My assumption is that a Save would qualify for lifesaving but there is no backing for that in the regs.

Let us know what you find out, I'm interested to see how this is handled

[lordmonar]

If you found her....then you get a find.  Finds and find ribbons are approved by the wing commander.  Send a CAPF 2a up the chain with the relevent information and get it approved.

Saves are just a nice to have......it could be used to justify a lifesafing ribbon but it is not automatic, as you can get a "save" for and organ or blood transport mission as well.

If you want to try for the lifesaving ribbon....do up a CAPF 120 up to the wing.

[Wallygator]

This is entriely unclear throughout the regs.

60-3 outlines Find, Distress Find, and Save.  But only defines award of find and distress finds.

My assumption is that a Save would qualify for lifesaving but there is no backing for that in the regs.

Let us know what you find out, I'm interested to see how this is handled

That's what I can up with.
39-3 9.g. Talks about "Certificate of Recognition for Life Saving" and has a line about a save but doesn't say how you are to be nominated for the certificate.

I put the question to the knowledge base and they said it was answered by forwarding it to the expert. I have not heard back from the expert. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

This is entriely unclear throughout the regs.

60-3 outlines Find, Distress Find, and Save.  But only defines award of find and distress finds.

My assumption is that a Save would qualify for lifesaving but there is no backing for that in the regs.

Let us know what you find out, I'm interested to see how this is handled

That's what I can up with.
39-3 9.g. Talks about "Certificate of Recognition for Life Saving" and has a line about a save but doesn't say how you are to be nominated for the certificate.

I put the question to the knowledge base and they said it was answered by forwarding it to the expert. I have not heard back from the expert. 

The real experts are here, and LordM is one of them.  You definitely get a "Find" for the distress find.  The recognition by AFRCC that you saved one life should be sufficient to justify the Lifesaving certificate in your situation, but that is not automatic nor always appropriate, as others have already noted.

And Bravo Zulu on the save.  Extra ration of grog to every man-jack of your gallant crew. 

[Flying Pig]

For a Life Saving, you would have to show that your actions are actually what saved her life and that your actions did in fact save her life.  You said when you found her she was OK?  For the life saving ribbon, your actions would have had to be specifically credited for saving her life.  She was drowning and you did CPR and brought her back.  She was bleeding profusely and you stopped the bleeding and saved her.  If you do a SAR mission and locate the missing person, who is fine, you and your team rates a worthy "Save".  Life Saving Ribbons are not awarded for what "might" have happened if you hadnt found her.  There are a lot of variables in SAR and I think CAP has a good award progression. Find, Save, Life Saving.  You did a good thing so pat yourself on the back.

Where the "Save" vs "Find" comes into play is the amount you need to justify additional triangular clasps or propellers if you are part of an aircrew.  20 Non-Distress Finds rate a triangular clasp, where each individual "Save" rates one.  There are no "Saves" per se, there are only distress and non-distress "Finds"  You'll notice also that the Life Saving Medal is awarded in situations where the Bronze Medal of Valor would not be justified. 

[IceNine]

^ Not only for Aircrew.

While it is titled the air search and rescue ribbon, it can be awarded to ground, and base personnel as well.

[PHall]

If you "saved" her life on an Search Mission,  and AFRCC makes the determination if it is a save, then you may be eligible for the Lifesaving Award. You have to be awarded a find by the IC first.

If you weren't on a mission then the Bronze Medal of Valor or something similar may be called for.
The "save" credit here would probably be determined by the MD at the ER or the EMS agency that handled the call.

The big point is that you are not the one who makes the "save" call.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think we need a better definition of "OK."

I cannot imagine someone out on the desert in a car for 36 hours still being "OK" unless that person was well-prepared for survival with ample water.  Most motorists are not.

If "OK" means the person was still alive, then we have to look at whether or not the combined actions of CAP made sure the person stayed that way.  The Latin phrase I'm looking for is "Sine Qui Non,"  Without which, nothing. 

If she would have survived with or without CAP help, no Lifesaving award.  If she would have died unless CAP found her as quickly as we did, award.

[Flying Pig]

No, thats a Distress Find.  Lifesaving is that you actually took Lifesaving action.

[coolkites]

I figure that she might have died out in the desert had CAP not found her so therefor it might be a Save.

[IceNine]

Ask this question to someone who can impact what if any awards are presented.

A GREAT place to start is your squadron commander.

Speculation will not get anything done and that's all we can do here.  We can offer our version of the interpretation of the reg but without the details that would be required to justify the award we cannot make a determination.

And if you're going to go through all the trouble to write in that much detail here you might as well just do it on a CAPF 120 and let your chain decide.

[lordmonar]

That is more or less what I said about 10 post back.

[coolkites]

That is more or less what I said about 10 post back.

And I completely agree

[N Harmon]

When it comes to awards, when in doubt I send it up. It might get denied by higher echelons, but it has no chance of getting approved if you don't send it.

If this is the SAR mission I think it is, then the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving is certainly appropriate.

[Eclipse]

"Find", "Distress Find", and "Save" are statistical categories used by AFRCC and other agencies in regards to the results of a respective mission.

They aren't directly linked to a specific decoration.

Find and distress finds get the same ribbon. As noted, a "Save" might be grounds for a decoration, and it might not - also, not all the members of a "save" crew would necessarily quality in the subjective opinion of a commander approving the 120.

[CAPSGT]

The criteria for award of the "Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving" is extremely loose.  Per CAPR 39-3, simply flying a blood or organ transport mission qualifies as a "lifesaving action." 

While CAPR 60-3 and 39-3 do not blatently say "Save credit=Lifesaving Award", it seems pretty clear to me that the intent of the regulations is that the section in 60-3 referring to "Save credit" is referring to eligibility for the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving in 39-3.

I know that since I joined, every member of my wing who has been credited with a save has been awarded the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The question facing higher HQ is... Did the actions of the nominated CAP member cause a life to be saved, or conversely, if it were not for the actions of the nominated CAP member, would a person have died?

If the answer is "Yes," the award should be approved.

If the answer is "No" or "Maybe," the award should be disapproved.

[CAPSGT]

From CAPR 60-3:

A SAVE is the preservation of a human life as a result of actions taken by emergency services (ES) forces.  The determination as to whether or not a SAVE is made rests with the controlling agency (for example: AFRCC for SAR missions) based on the recommendation of the appropriate IC or participating emergency services element. In the case of a medical evacuation, the attending physician must attest to the SAVE.  Normally, a SAVE will be credited to the element of the ES force making the recover; however a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a SAVE if it locates the SAR objective and directs the retrieval force to a successful recover.

The question is not facing higher HQ.  The answer is determined by the IC and AFRCC when closing out the mission.  The IC recommends if there was one at all.  AFRCC decides if it was or was not a save.  If they decide it was, the IC then determines what individuals are awarded the credit itself.  Typically it goes to the Ground Team involved, but could potentially be awarded to an aircrew, and in extreme circumstances can be awarded to mission staff.

[Flying Pig]

I hope you guys get it if its warranted. Our members often go through their careers without so much as a thank you.  At least earning a decoration is a small internal "Thank You" from the guys that goes a long way.

[Ozzy]

The way some people are referring to this seems like there is very little distinction between a Distress Find and actually saving a life.

A Find is anything that which no danger was present.
A Distress Find is that which there was an actual danger to life or limb, whether it be time in the field, fire, animals, or injuries.
------
A Life-Saving Award is for actually saving a life that was in imminent danger, yet with little to no risk towards the member(s) doing the saving. Drowning, Deep Bleeding, Shock would be some examples of this.
Bronze Medal of Valor would be for saving a life that was in imminent danger with a degree of risk towards the member(s) doing the saving. Things like pushing a people out of the way of a moving card, saving someone from a burning car, or such would be in this category.
Silver Medal of Valor would be for saving a life that was in imminent danger with a great degree of risk towards the member(s) doing the saving. Running into a burning building, trying to save someone in a fire-fight, Saving someone from a random act of God, saving someone from a Rip-tide are some of the things in here. And these things are not for the average person to try and save, but for those actual qualified to do so, like life-guards, fire-fighters, EMTs, and Policemen


But that's just my take on it. How exactly was she trapped in her car? Was she severely dehydrated? Could she move? If you just gave her some water sent her with some EMTs, and she could have probably survived another day or two then congrats on a Distress Find, but if you actually did a bit more then that, like treat for heat stroke, dehydration, AND shock, and there was a real danger to her life at the moment you got there, then congrats on saving a life AND a Distress Find.

[DC]

...And these things are not for the average person to try and save, but for those actual qualified to do so, like life-guards, fire-fighters, EMTs, and Policemen

There is no requirement that you have to hold some qualification as a first responder to earn the BMV or SMV. Those individuals are far more likely to be in a position to do something worthy of those medals, but it's not limited to them.

Back when they published the citations for SMVs and BMVs in the old CAP News I remember reading about plenty of ordinary members doing heroic things. IIRC a good amount of the SMVs were posthumous too...

[Ozzy]

Yes that is true, but rule number one about running into a burning building, trying to save someone in a rip-tide, or getting someone out of an electrified pool....... DON'T do it unless you are either trained in doing it safely, or can do it in a safe manner or else you are not only risking yourself, but those that have to go in to save YOU. For what I was meaning as for not the average person to do it, was those that knows their limits and can think quick on their feet. Some people don't know how far they can push themselves before they can't do any more and when they're done, they're done.

[DC]

Yes that is true, but rule number one about running into a burning building, trying to save someone in a rip-tide, or getting someone out of an electrified pool....... DON'T do it unless you are either trained in doing it safely, or can do it in a safe manner or else you are not only risking yourself, but those that have to go in to save YOU. For what I was meaning as for not the average person to do it, was those that knows their limits and can think quick on their feet. Some people don't know how far they can push themselves before they can't do any more and when they're done, they're done.

Yes, but the spirit of the award, I think, is to recognize those members who go way beyond what any reasonable person would do in those circumstances, not to recognize professionals for doing their job.

Anyway, [/hijack] before this thread gets locked.

[JohnKachenmeister]

If a person places himself or herself at great risk, we should be talking one or the other of the Medals of Valor. 

A "Save" is credited by the mission controlling agency, sure.  But the criteria for a Certificate of Lifesaving is determined by the wing commander.  Credit for a "Save" is not automatic qualification for a Lifesaving award, only a "Distress find" ribbon or clasp.

[CAPSGT]

The way some people are referring to this seems like there is very little distinction between a Distress Find and actually saving a life.

A Find is anything that which no danger was present.
A Distress Find is that which there was an actual danger to life or limb, whether it be time in the field, fire, animals, or injuries.

A Non-Distress find is essentailly a false alarm.

A Distress find involves anytime there is a downed aircraft, someone is in danger, or...somebody actually died.  That last part is the major distinction between a distress find and a save.  Unfortunately, the majority of our distress finds are cases in which those we were searching for were not able to be saved.

[lordmonar]

A Non-Distress find is essentailly a false alarm.

A Distress find involves anytime there is a downed aircraft, someone is in danger, or...somebody actually died.  That last part is the major distinction between a distress find and a save.  Unfortunately, the majority of our distress finds are cases in which those we were searching for were not able to be saved.

Don't disregard the non-distress finds.  Even if it was an ELT with bad batteries or someone who had a hard landing.  Everytime and ELT or other device is transmitting of 121.5 or 432 we have to treat it like an emergency.  If nothing else to get the signal off the air so that a "real" signal will be picked up and we can hopefully safe a life.

[CAPSGT]

Oh absolutely treat it like the real thing.  I got the surprise of my life when I went after an ELT that appeared to either be coming from an airport or a nearby marina.  Imagine my surprise when I found a crashed airplane in a remote part of the airfield.

The "essentaily a false alarm" statement is in reference to the end result.

[JohnKachenmeister]

When I was a working cop (before I became a drain on society's resources) I answered a LOT of false alarm calls.  Holdup alarms triggered by a 19-year old blonde who didn't understand that the "Cute little button" actually did something, even if she could not see or hear it.  Burglary alarms set by dogs, whose owners were convinced by the alarm salesman that a motion-detector was needed to keep their children safe.  99.9 percent of all alarms are false.

Cops get killed responding to alarms in the assumption that they are false when they encounter the 0.1 percent that are real.

ELT's are the same, even though we don't get nearly as many since the Air Force stopped listening for them.

[Wallygator]

I do thank everyone for chiming in on this one!  :clap:

Just to give you all a bit more back ground info...
Elderly lady alone, drives her car at night into the desert. She gets lost and gets her car stuck off road. She is unable to walk without assistance. She calls her friend and says she is stuck and is waiting for a tow. She is out in the desert and does not know where she is. Sheriff department is called, but does not know where to look for her. CAP is called, we use cell phone forensics to find her cell phone and get some coordinates. Data not so great, 20 mile circle. It gets dark, so we call her and tell her to turn on her emergency flashers. Sheriff sends ranger helicopter and CAP aircraft to try to find "flashing lights in the dark". Ranger finds her, lands, puts her in the chopper and flies her to the hospital. She only had some water with her and she could not leave her car. She was stuck in the car for almost 2 days. 

So later I hear that AFRCC has given the wing a "save" for this mission. So the meat of my question, what does this "save" mean for an award? Why is 60-3 chapter 1-24 inconclusive?
I was awarded a clasp for my find ribbon. And I am not trying for anything more. I'm just confused on the whole "save" thing.

Thanks to everyone who posted.   

[Hawk200]

So the meat of my question, what does this "save" mean for an award?

Absolutely nothing. It's simply a designation on the mission outcome. Has nothing to do with decorations.

Why is 60-3 chapter 1-24 inconclusive?

As far as awards go, 60-3 won't say anything about it. 60-3 is an operational series reg, 39-1 is a personnel series manual. The two have nothing in common.

[Wallygator]

So the meat of my question, what does this "save" mean for an award?

Absolutely nothing. It's simply a designation on the mission outcome. Has nothing to do with decorations.

Why is 60-3 chapter 1-24 inconclusive?

As far as awards go, 60-3 won't say anything about it. 60-3 is an operational series reg, 39-1 is a personnel series manual. The two have nothing in common.

I guess I understand. They use the "save" credit as a way of tracking what CAP ES is doing.

[Hawk200]

I guess I understand. They use the "save" credit as a way of tracking what CAP ES is doing.

Not really. It just classifies the type of mission. Not specific to CAP at all.

[sardak]

Correct, SAVE is a category of mission result tracked by AFRCC and the Coast Guard, so don't apply to just CAP. The other mission results are assisted, self-recovered, deceased, missing. These stats are published in AFRCC's annual report.

Definition of save in the 2008 AFRCC annual report:
SAVE: An objective was in a distress situation and could not affect a self-recovery and was located alive.

Definitions from older AFRCC annual reports:
SAVE: Objective was located and in a life-or-death situation
ASSIST: Objective located and in distress, but not a life-or-death situation (definition not in the 2008 report, although the stats are).

From personal knowledge, a CAP Wing can be awarded a save without ever launching ground or air assets or performing any radar or cell phone forensics. CAP assistance had been requested, and an AFRCC mission number issued, but the subject was located alive before CAP did anything, and the Wing shared in the save.

On the other hand, a CAP wing was awarded a save and the lead agency wasn't (not that it cared), even though lead agency personnel located the survivor and CAP personnel never saw the survivor or aircraft. It was a tragi-comedy of errors in which the CAP AL and ground team continually corrected the mistakes of  the lead agency. AFRCC was so upset with the lead agency that they only credited the save to CAP.

Mike

[PHall]

If you have been awarded a "save" for this mission then there would have been a Personnel Action from Wing awarding you the Lifesaving Award with the Bronze Star attachment.

[lordmonar]

If you have been awarded a "save" for this mission then there would have been a Personnel Action from Wing awarding you the Lifesaving Award with the Bronze Star attachment.

Not necessarrily.  The standard for the lifesaving awards is a little higher then a "save" credit for the mission.  And as noted....the entire mission get's save credit not  just the crew/team that did the actual "saving".

[PHall]

If you have been awarded a "save" for this mission then there would have been a Personnel Action from Wing awarding you the Lifesaving Award with the Bronze Star attachment.

Not necessarrily.  The standard for the lifesaving awards is a little higher then a "save" credit for the mission.  And as noted....the entire mission get's save credit not  just the crew/team that did the actual "saving".

Better reread the reg again Pat.  CAPM 39-3, Para 9g.

[lordmonar]

If you have been awarded a "save" for this mission then there would have been a Personnel Action from Wing awarding you the Lifesaving Award with the Bronze Star attachment.

Not necessarrily.  The standard for the lifesaving awards is a little higher then a "save" credit for the mission.  And as noted....the entire mission get's save credit not  just the crew/team that did the actual "saving".

Better reread the reg again Pat.  CAPM 39-3, Para 9g.

So you are right....

So....back to the original poster.......if the mission is credited with a save.....does EVERYONE on the mission get the save or just the crew/individual doing the saving?