White and Grays

[Lt Oliv]

Today I was surfing the web looking for more information on the white and grays (I know very few people who wear them).  I read 39-1 that one does not need to conform to the weight AND grooming standards to wear whites and grays, but while surfing, I happened upon a module from the Level 1 Training Here:

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Uniforms_77050D80D89C8.pdf

On page 5, the wording seems to indicate that you must adhere to the grooming standards, but not the weight standards to wear whites and grays.  It also seems to mention the possibility of wearing a tie with whites and grays when you wear a long sleeve aviator shirt.

I can't find anything about this in 39-1 or any of the Letters of Change, am I missing something?

[davedove]

You are required to meet the grooming standards, but not the weight standards, when wearing the blue/white Corporate Service Uniform.  For all other corporate uniforms, including the grey/white uniform, you do not have to meet either of the standards.

Yes, if you wear the long sleeve white aviator shirt, you also wear the blue AF tie.

[Capt M. Sherrod]

You are right.  It is not worded well.

White / Grey - NO Weight  /  NO Grooming

White / Blue - NO Weight  /  YES Grooming (see the yellow box (pg 6) at the end of that section)

[wuzafuzz]

Yes, if you wear the long sleeve white aviator shirt, you also wear the blue AF tie.

I've seen the grey combo with blue tie and thought it looked awful!  I'd rather see it with the regimental tie from the blazer combo.  Then you could "upgrade" by throwing on a blazer.

[ßτε]

Yes, if you wear the long sleeve white aviator shirt, you also wear the blue AF tie.

I've seen the grey combo with blue tie and thought it looked awful!  I'd rather see it with the regimental tie from the blazer combo.  Then you could "upgrade" by throwing on a blazer.

Or you can wear the AF Blue Tie with the blazer.

[Lt Oliv]

You are required to meet the grooming standards, but not the weight standards, when wearing the blue/white Corporate Service Uniform.  For all other corporate uniforms, including the grey/white uniform, you do not have to meet either of the standards.

Yes, if you wear the long sleeve white aviator shirt, you also wear the blue AF tie.

That's what I thought.  The way the doc from the training module phrased it, I was afraid another letter of change came out that I was somehow missing. 

[billford1]

It's not bad to wear the Gray & White Aviator uniform at a squadron meeting. I wear slacks that aren't medium gray but they fit better. Larger gatherings are different. I remember at one wing event there were a few folks in TPUs and some in gray & whites . Of the gray & white uniforms there were as many different shades of gray slacks. Some of us have trouble finding dress gray slacks that fit. There are commercial medium gray slacks that also come in a version that look like cargo pants but they do have a color that is a closer match to the gray epaulets. It helps to have a sense of humor when you're with Senior Members, Cadets and USAF leaders as well as ranking staff from Region and elsewhere who are all wearing Class A's and B's. For some of us heaver folks the diet solution for having a more uniform look is beyond our grasp because of medical issues. Many of us also tend to be among those who've been in CAP for a very long time.

[Lt Oliv]

Well the issue comes up that some events require either AF Style uniform, Corporate Blues OR Whites and Grays.  No other uniform is authorized.  So, this clarification goes a long way because there is essentially one uniform if you have facial hair, two choices if you don't meet weight standards, and three if you are high and tight.

And making me shave (or withholding advancement because I can't attend a class with facial hair) is a sure-fire way to lose two  members (me and my wife).

So, this is good news.

[billford1]

I have noticed that the crowd is smaller than it used to be. I think this is for a number of reasons including out of pocket costs, boredom, the uniform variety and the modifications thereof.  For us Emergency Services folks there's the never ending requirement for paperwork to be filled out. CAP/USAF and some in Congress pay attention to us. I think I'd welcome the idea of tasking the USAF to look at CAP as an asset that they can optimize and utilize. If the AF guy stuck with the job asked me what I thought I'd say it would help do more than the status quo to provide food, fuel, uniforms and other things necessary to unburden the volunteers who come out.  I would say do what it takes to make CAP members feel good about doing their CAP job and feeling like they belong in the absence of monetary compensation.

[Eclipse]

^ And that's related to this thread how?

[billford1]

It's related in the sense that our uniforms make a us look screwed up.

[Eclipse]

It's related in the sense that our uniforms make a us look screwed up.

I will 100% guarantee you, and bet you a nice dinner that our retention issues have nothing to do with our uniforms.

Other than the CSU, the uniforms have been substantially the same for about 10 years, and no one says you have to get a CSU.  Anyone quitting because of that was looking for an excuse.

We have options, not requirements, and has been proven here numerous times, not even as many as other services. Outside a combat environment you'd be hard-pressed to find any service right now where everyone is dressed the same every day.

[billford1]

I agree with you. Nobody will say that they are quitting because of uniforms. People I know of are quitting for several reasons often driven partly because of personality conflicts. If you don't agree with me I'm ok with that but I've listened to my Cadet tell me that the Seniors don't act or look like he's used to seeing CAP the way it looks on the Cadet side. Seniors I know agree that the Cadets make CAP look better. At encampments the Military folks are usually impressed with the Cadets.

[JohnKachenmeister]

There may be some peripheral effect of the myriad uniforms on retention, but the principal problem with uniforms is not internal.  Our image to the USAF and other agencies is adversely affected by the mix of uniforms.

The white/gray combo makes the folks look like they are with some other agency.  The TPU (CSU) at least approaches making us look like we are all on the same team.

[Lt Oliv]

My comment was simply because I wear facial hair for religious reasons (Jewish) and since my wife is a Chaplain (and a Rabbi), if CAP got to a point where we said "Sorry, if you're gonna wear a beard, you can only wear the polo shirt" I think both of us would take that as a bit of a slight.

When you tell a segment of your membership they can only wear uniforms that seem to distinguish them as being outside of the agency, I'm not sure how else you can take it. 

I can respect the AF not wanting you to wear their uniform if you are fat and/or fuzzy (even though the USCG seems to have little problem with it in their Auxiliary, but hey, different strokes..).  But the corporate uniform being available only to those who meet grooming standards is a bit insulting.

The Corporate Uniform looks like a commercial airline pilot uniform.  One does not look at it and have, as the first thing entering their mind, "Wow, Air Force!"

The whites and grays are the same.  My only problem with them is that as mentioned earlier, a good chunk of people are unaware that you can wear grade insignia while not conforming to grooming standards, and when you have too many uniform combinations, you cease to be (wait for it..) uniform.

I would be perfectly comfortable with them allowing facial hair with the Corporate Uniform (which would have been the case had Pineda had a beard in addition to being fat) and ditching the Whites and Grays.

We are not the AF.  Requiring members to conform to AF standards in order to wear something that resembles a uniform is just plain ridiculous.  The polo shirt and blazer combo are great, and many choose to wear them, but the fact remains that they are modified civilian attire. 

[EMT-83]

My comment was simply because I wear facial hair for religious reasons (Jewish) and since my wife is a Chaplain (and a Rabbi), if CAP got to a point where we said "Sorry, if you're gonna wear a beard, you can only wear the polo shirt" I think both of us would take that as a bit of a slight.

I've never heard anyone suggest this, have you?

[Rotorhead]

The whites and grays are the same.  My only problem with them is that as mentioned earlier, a good chunk of people are unaware that you can wear grade insignia while not conforming to grooming standards, and when you have too many uniform combinations, you cease to be (wait for it..) uniform.

I would be perfectly comfortable with them allowing facial hair with the Corporate Uniform (which would have been the case had Pineda had a beard in addition to being fat) and ditching the Whites and Grays.

We (you and I) can't help it if people are ignorant about wearing grade insignia with the white & greys.

All you can do is memorize the reg and quote the ref number to them.

[rjfoxx]

I know that this question is going cause some to groan and say not again; but heres goes.  Why do the regs forbid wearing earned military ribbons / badges on the white/grey uniform?  Only CAP ribbons and badges can be worn!  We (prior military service types) earned our ribbons & badges and I feel that we should be allowed to wear them on the white/grey uniform.  I have not seen this issue mentioned before.  What are your feelings about this?

[Rotorhead]

I know that this question is going cause some to groan and say not again; but heres goes.  Why do the regs forbid wearing earned military ribbons / badges on the white/grey uniform?  Only CAP ribbons and badges can be worn!  We (prior military service types) earned our ribbons & badges and I feel that we should be allowed to wear them on the white/grey uniform.  I have not seen this issue mentioned before.  What are your feelings about this?

It has been mentioned before ad nauseum.

The white and grey is not a military-style uniform. It is a corporate uniform. Therefore, you wear only corporate decorations on it.

If you want to wear your prior service decorations, get in shape for the blue AF-style uniform.

That's your option and it isn't likely to change.

[Rotorhead]

Requiring members to conform to AF standards in order to wear something that resembles a uniform is just plain ridiculous. 

This would be the case, if it were true, but you can wear the white and grey uniform as you are now.

What's the real problem?