Why do we have so many uniform choices

[flyguy06]

We were discussing this at our meeting the other night. Why does CAP have sooooo manyuniform choices? Why not just have either the military style AF Blue, the BDU, and flight suits. And for those not meeting the height and weight, the CAP distinctive unifom and call it a day. Why all the others? It makes it bvery dificult to have uniformity and unit cohesion with so many options. Just give the members limited options.

[DC]

Do we have to start flogging the deceased horse here yet again?

[AlphaSigOU]

Do we have to start flogging the deceased horse here yet again?

Sock it to 'em... that dead horse isn't flat enough! 

[flyguy06]

I'm sorry if I missed the discussion. I dont visit the thread very often 

[Stonewall]

I offered up my solution to alleviate 2 different utility uniforms...

[AlphaSigOU]

Great idea, but unfortunately there's a severe case of NIH (not invented here) disease in the upper echelons above reality...

I like it - while it's modeled after the ACU, it's distinctive enough to not give Ma Blue or Green feline gynecological distress (read: have kittens sideways). 

[hatentx]

I agree I think this uniform would be great and wear the TPU as the service uniform.  I know I know there are people not fans of it cause of "that one guy" but they both look military and are also distictive enough to be set apart as well.  If we made that transistion would the RM badges and such be worn??  While it is not the end of the world to me either way I would like to have them.  While it makes me different, boy my mom always said I was different, I think it also adds some validity to out memebers with the RM.  I also think an enexpesive PT uniform should be disgined as well. But eh thats just me

[Eclipse]

Why does CAP have sooooo manyuniform choices?

We don't have any more choices than the other services, its been shown in detail several times in other threads that we basically have the same number of combinations as the other services, and the services that are in uniform transition have more than we do.

Why not just have either the military style AF Blue, the BDU, and flight suits. And for those not meeting the height and weight, the CAP distinctive unifom and call it a day.

So, anyone not meeting grooming, including skinny guys with beards, is supposed to tromp around in the woods doing GT work in a white dress shirt and pants, with low-quarter dress shoes?  How about the states with Nomex requirements in the cockpit?  Just write off those pilots and aircrew?

There are very specific reasons why we have the combos we do.

If big brother blue would loosen its grip a little on the USAF-style, we'd all be uniform, until then, the only way its ever going to happen is if we move to all corporate combinations.

If you want to see variety, spend some time on a Navy base right now...

[flyguy06]

No. Keep the Blue BDU's. I was talking about doing away with the grey pants/blue polo shirt thing. and the white shirt/grey pants combo. I like the AF style uniforms. (BDU's, AF style uniform , and flight suit) and those are the ONLY Ones I wear. I heard a comment from a new member who is also in the SDF who thought it was odd that we have so many. In the SDF, you wear ACU's to drill. if you dont have them on  youhave to leave. We dont do that inCAP. AT CAP meetings I go to , I see senior members in array of differnt uniforms. I even see some in civvies. That  would never go over  in an SDF drill You would get sent home. But we are afrid to "offend" people in CAP because its volunteer. I hate that mentality. Its an organization. We should all look alike. If I were commander, I would say ok, this week we all wear BDU's (Blue ones or camo)

In my squadron, we are doing an experiement. The last two months we have all worn the blue service uniform. It has worked out great. It has increased morale. When a member comes inin civvies, he feels out of placa and yu can bet he will be in that uniform th enext week. We had a visitor come and compliment us saying we looked sharp all dressed alike. I had to make sacrafices because Ilike wearing my BDU's but for this experiement Ihave been wearing blues every week, and Ihave really seen an improvement in esprit de corps in my unit.

I say stop all this wear any uniform you want to meetings.

[JAFO78]

If we didn't than CAP Talk wouldn't have 35 pages on Uniforms & Awards.    

[JohnKachenmeister]

We have more than one uniform?  When did THIS happen?  Why wasn't I informed?

[SarDragon]

No. Keep the Blue BDU's. I was talking about doing away with the grey pants/blue polo shirt thing. and the white shirt/grey pants combo.

Then what are the folks who don't meet weight and grooming standards going to wear?

[flyguy06]

No. Keep the Blue BDU's. I was talking about doing away with the grey pants/blue polo shirt thing. and the white shirt/grey pants combo.

Then what are the folks who don't meet weight and grooming standards going to wear?

They would wear the CAP distinctive uniform

[SarDragon]

No. Keep the Blue BDU's. I was talking about doing away with the grey pants/blue polo shirt thing. and the white shirt/grey pants combo.

Then what are the folks who don't meet weight and grooming standards going to wear?

They would wear the CAP distinctive uniform

You mean the monstrosity nicknamed the TPU? Maybe the heavy folks, but not the hairy folks. Care to try again?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Hey there, don't go calling my favorite uniform a "Monstrosity."  You just have not learned to wear it right.

To properly wear the TPU, you have to wear it in a hotel cocktail lounge with a not-too-bright waitress.  (Look for blondes, they're your best bet!)

Then, fake a foreign accent, and tell her you are the Dictator-For-Life of a third-world banana republic, and tell her you will make her "Minister of Internal Beautification" or something.

You don't ever have to leave a tip, and usually she will spring for a few drinks just to hear you pick up the cell phone and order some dissidents to be executed.

[notaNCO forever]

Hey there, don't go calling my favorite uniform a "Monstrosity."  You just have not learned to wear it right.

To properly wear the TPU, you have to wear it in a hotel cocktail lounge with a not-too-bright waitress.  (Look for blondes, they're your best bet!)

Then, fake a foreign accent, and tell her you are the Dictator-For-Life of a third-world banana republic, and tell her you will make her "Minister of Internal Beautification" or something.

You don't ever have to leave a tip, and usually she will spring for a few drinks just to hear you pick up the cell phone and order some dissidents to be executed.

I believe I detect some sarcasm.

[es_g0d]

You sound a little unsure, NCO, you might want to get that instrument calibrated!  Of course, there probably isn't an "over the top" setting.

[AlphaSigOU]

Hey there, don't go calling my favorite uniform a "Monstrosity."  You just have not learned to wear it right.

To properly wear the TPU, you have to wear it in a hotel cocktail lounge with a not-too-bright waitress.  (Look for blondes, they're your best bet!)

Then, fake a foreign accent, and tell her you are the Dictator-For-Life of a third-world banana republic, and tell her you will make her "Minister of Internal Beautification" or something.

You don't ever have to leave a tip, and usually she will spring for a few drinks just to hear you pick up the cell phone and order some dissidents to be executed.

I oughta try that the next time I wear full-dress TPU! And I have more than a passing resemblance to a third-world-banana-republic dictator! 

Seriously, the CSU isn't that bad-looking of a uniform, politics behind the adoption of the uniform aside. If ya don't like it ya don't hafta wear it. You've got grays and USAF-style (if you meet weight/grooming standards).

[Hawk200]

You sound a little unsure, NCO, you might want to get that instrument calibrated!  Of course, there probably isn't an "over the top" setting.

He's probably got one of the newfangled electronic detectors. If the measurment is above the instruments range, it won't register anything at all. Just have to get one with a higher rating.

Seriously, the CSU isn't that bad-looking of a uniform, politics behind the adoption of the uniform aside. If ya don't like it ya don't hafta wear it. You've got grays and USAF-style (if you meet weight/grooming standards).

Agreed. Although I didn't care for it, it is far more "uniform" than the blazer combo.

[SarDragon]

The post I responded to was suggesting the elimination of the grey trousers-based uniform combinations. I queried the responder about the replacement, and was told - "They would wear the CAP distinctive uniform." The requested clarification has not appeared yet.

As for: "Seriously, the CSU isn't that bad-looking of a uniform, politics behind the adoption of the uniform aside. If ya don't like it ya don't hafta wear it. You've got grays and USAF-style (if you meet weight/grooming standards).", I'm not permitted to wear the CSU, hence my request for clarification.

[Trying to stay more on topic-]

The thread title is - Why do we have so many uniform choices[?]

My answer - Because we have so many different people in the organization.

YMMV.

[AlphaSigOU]

And I wouldn't mind allowing the wear of neatly-trimmed facial hair on the CSU, if they got rid of the grays-on-whites.

[Gunner C]

I would.  Just shave and get a haircut.  It's simple.  If CAP isn't that important, then don't sweat it.   

[billford1]

Just shave and get a haircut is easy. For those of us who are neatly groomed with a goatee it's kind of trivial when we see the appearance of some who don't have facial hair and wear the CSU. I would define good grooming to not exclude facial hair, but rather present an otherwise neatly groomed appearance.

[Spike]

Just shave and get a haircut is easy. For those of us who are neatly groomed with a goatee it's kind of trivial when we see the appearance of some who don't have facial hair and wear the CSU. I would define good grooming to not exclude facial hair, but rather present an otherwise neatly groomed appearance.

:clap:

Facial hair is considered "bad" in the military because Gas Masks will not create a good seal against the face if hair is present. 

We don't have the issue of wearing gas masks in CAP, so I never understood the issue of having a neatly trimmed beard. 

It is a silly rule, only dictated to us by those in leadership who have no idea why the rule ever came into existence.

For people to say "just get a haircut or a shave" is shameful on their part.  We all deserve to groom ourselves in a way that makes us feel better about ourselves.  Some people don't brush their teeth.  Should we have a rule that says "unless you brush your teeth three times a day you can't wear AF style uniforms"?? 

[wuzafuzz]

Why do we have so many uniform choices?

Hmmm, maybe it's so the rampant unauthorized customizations won't stand out quite so much.   :angel:

[Gunner C]

Just shave and get a haircut is easy. For those of us who are neatly groomed with a goatee it's kind of trivial when we see the appearance of some who don't have facial hair and wear the CSU. I would define good grooming to not exclude facial hair, but rather present an otherwise neatly groomed appearance.

Like I said.  If your facial hair is more important than your service in CAP, so be it.  I wouldn't blame you at all - everyone needs to make their own decisions. 

Facial hair is considered "bad" in the military because Gas Masks will not create a good seal against the face if hair is present. 

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

Civilian norms changed, also.  A well groomed man became one who was clean shaven.  There are precious few in the elite levels of business who still have them (some exceptions like Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, very few).  In the military, beards and moustaches are looked down on - it's just not part of the culture.  If you want to fit in, you have to play the game.

[Spike]

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

hmm......a little research shows that straight razors were being mass produced in bulk by at least 1850.  I also have the Army Officers guide from 1903, which shows beards permissible.  It was not until the advent of Gas Warfare and the mask as a defense, when the military moved to shaving off beards.  Look at some historical photos on the net and you can probably deduce the time frame the "shaving reg" came out.  Also, it wasn't until the 1920's when beards went out of style.

Hygiene was not a forethought until after WW1. 

[Stonewall]

Facial hair is considered "bad" in the military because Gas Masks will not create a good seal against the face if hair is present.

Just some food for thought....all of these are US Military personnel:

[Spike]

^ Please don't pretend we are not educated.  Special Operations personnel operate "somewhat differently" than "regular forces".

[Rotorhead]

In my squadron, we are doing an experiement. The last two months we have all worn the blue service uniform. It has worked out great.

So you have NO overweight members or ones with facial hair? Must be a small squadron.

[Stonewall]

^ Please don't pretend we are not educated.  Special Operations personnel operate "somewhat differently" than "regular forces".

Relax, I was just goofin' around.  Not to mention there are gas masks these days that can be used with a beard and still provide a seal.

[PHall]

The Navy allowed facial hair in the late 60's through the early 80's.

[SarDragon]

The Navy allowed facial hair in the late 60's through the early 80's.

Actually, according to my research, beards were never specifically prohibited in the Navy until 1 Jan 1985. Prior to the "Zumwalt era", beards were permitted, but discouraged, and permission up the chain of command was required. They were primarily seen at sea, where uniform enforcement was not as strict.

There were two reasons they went away - the aforementioned sealing problems with protective equipment, and appearance issues among the 18-25 set. There were too many people that grew "beards" that consisted of several unconnected patches hair that looked terrible.

I lamented their passing, and promptly started growing mine back the day I left active duty.

[Gunner C]

^ Please don't pretend we are not educated.  Special Operations personnel operate "somewhat differently" than "regular forces".

Relax, I was just goofin' around.  Not to mention there are gas masks these days that can be used with a beard and still provide a seal.

Having been one of "those guys", our chain of command nearly threw up every time they saw us in relaxed grooming standards.  But, every time we had RGS, there was a reason for it.  BTW, I'm thinking the guy on the bottom picture isn't military.  No shirt is streng verbotten - foreigners usually don't look on that well.

[Gunner C]

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

hmm......a little research shows that straight razors were being mass produced in bulk by at least 1850.  I also have the Army Officers guide from 1903, which shows beards permissible.  It was not until the advent of Gas Warfare and the mask as a defense, when the military moved to shaving off beards.  Look at some historical photos on the net and you can probably deduce the time frame the "shaving reg" came out.  Also, it wasn't until the 1920's when beards went out of style.

Hygiene was not a forethought until after WW1.

Straight razors (also known as "cut throats" were the norm, but were notorious for being unpopular.  When Gillette brought safety razors to the US in the early 1900s, that's when beards began to disappear.  There are all sorts of things that were listed in the Army Officers' Guide, it doesn't mean that commanders allowed their officers or NCOs to have beards.  (When was the last time you saw a military officer with a moustache, sideburns, and hair all at the legal limits?)

BTW, soldiers were clean shaven before WW1.  Have you seen any beards on soldiers in the Mexico Expedition?  Panama Canal Contruction?  Cuban Expedition?  No gas in any of those places.  AAMOF, I don't believe it had been used at that point.

The absence of beards in the non-sea services has been in effect for over 100 years.  (BTW, the picture of the Rough Riders below reminds me of a CAP meeting. Talk about a variety of uniforms!) 

[Cecil DP]

I think it had more to do with hygiene - being clean shaven was part of the military before gas warfare in WW1.  Shaving in the field caused nicks in the skin which became quickly infected.  When shaving instruments became more prevalent at the turn of the 20th century, then the military cut back on its facial hair.  It's also when haircuts became enforced.

hmm......a little research shows that straight razors were being mass produced in bulk by at least 1850.  I also have the Army Officers guide from 1903, which shows beards permissible.  It was not until the advent of Gas Warfare and the mask as a defense, when the military moved to shaving off beards.  Look at some historical photos on the net and you can probably deduce the time frame the "shaving reg" came out.  Also, it wasn't until the 1920's when beards went out of style.

Hygiene was not a forethought until after WW1.

Straight razors (also known as "cut throats" were the norm, but were notorious for being unpopular.  When Gillette brought safety razors to the US in the early 1900s, that's when beards began to disappear.  There are all sorts of things that were listed in the Army Officers' Guide, it doesn't mean that commanders allowed their officers or NCOs to have beards.  (When was the last time you saw a military officer with a moustache, sideburns, and hair all at the legal limits?)

BTW, soldiers were clean shaven before WW1.  Have you seen any beards on soldiers in the Mexico Expedition?  Panama Canal Contruction?  Cuban Expedition?  No gas in any of those places.  AAMOF, I don't believe it had been used at that point.

The absence of beards in the non-sea services has been in effect for over 100 years.  (BTW, the picture of the Rough Riders below reminds me of a CAP meeting. Talk about a variety of uniforms!) 

The drop in the use of mustaches and beards also coincides with the beginning of the recognition of just how bad fleas, ticks, and other creatures adversely affected the health of soldiers. In the field soldiers had a decided lack of hygeine, so they picked up a lot of hitchhikers. In most wars up until WWII, more people died of fever than ever died from combat. They also began vaccinating for everything at the same time.
To recap: No hair=no parasites=fewer soldiers dying or incapacitated from pestilence.

[O-Rex]

Hey there, don't go calling my favorite uniform a "Monstrosity."  You just have not learned to wear it right.

To properly wear the TPU, you have to wear it in a hotel cocktail lounge with a not-too-bright waitress.  (Look for blondes, they're your best bet!)

Then, fake a foreign accent, and tell her you are the Dictator-For-Life of a third-world banana republic, and tell her you will make her "Minister of Internal Beautification" or something.

You don't ever have to leave a tip, and usually she will spring for a few drinks just to hear you pick up the cell phone and order some dissidents to be executed.

Curses, I've been exposed!

Doom on you, Kach! 

[Hawk200]

The drop in the use of mustaches and beards also coincides with the beginning of the recognition of just how bad fleas, ticks, and other creatures adversely affected the health of soldiers. In the field soldiers had a decided lack of hygeine, so they picked up a lot of hitchhikers. In most wars up until WWII, more people died of fever than ever died from combat. They also began vaccinating for everything at the same time.
To recap: No hair=no parasites=fewer soldiers dying or incapacitated from pestilence.

And this is relevant to Civil Air Patrol members in what way? To say that CAP shouldn't have beards because soldiers of yesteryear had problems with infestations is idiotic. 

I agree that beards are not appropriate with our blues, but the CSU is a CAP "custom" uniform. Beards being forbidden with it is an arbitrary decision.

And the closeminded military concept that every man in the world needs to be clean shaven is blatantly prejudicial. It's the same mindset that causes junior (or just old timers that can't adapt) military members to have a facial tic when someone says "civilian". Ironically, it doesn't show the kind of tolerance that military members are supposed to have in the first place.

[Cecil DP]

The drop in the use of mustaches and beards also coincides with the beginning of the recognition of just how bad fleas, ticks, and other creatures adversely affected the health of soldiers. In the field soldiers had a decided lack of hygeine, so they picked up a lot of hitchhikers. In most wars up until WWII, more people died of fever than ever died from combat. They also began vaccinating for everything at the same time.
To recap: No hair=no parasites=fewer soldiers dying or incapacitated from pestilence.

And this is relevant to Civil Air Patrol members in what way? To say that CAP shouldn't have beards because soldiers of yesteryear had problems with infestations is idiotic. 

I agree that beards are not appropriate with our blues, but the CSU is a CAP "custom" uniform. Beards being forbidden with it is an arbitrary decision.

And the closeminded military concept that every man in the world needs to be clean shaven is blatantly prejudicial. It's the same mindset that causes junior (or just old timers that can't adapt) military members to have a facial tic when someone says "civilian". Ironically, it doesn't show the kind of tolerance that military members are supposed to have in the first place.

It goes  to refute the argument that the  reason for the the clean shave was to allow for the wear of gas masks. Personal hygiene and prevention of parasitic diseases is a far better rationalization of the shaving requirement than any other given in this forum in a historical context. As far as the wear of facial hair with the CSU, I never addressed it, and won't as I  retired from CAP in January.

[Pumbaa]

So being a fat slob is OK for the TPU, but not a neatly trimmed beard/ goatee???

Sorry, but when the blubber is flowing over the belt, and the shirt looks like crap.  I would say if you are going to allow a fatty, then a beard should not be an issue...

[billford1]

If you look at an obese Senior in uniform be a little more thoughtful. To suggest he is a slob is unfair. Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain that is devastating to them personally. If you define a slob as someone who doesn't seem to care how they look that individual can be influenced by their Squadron Commander and their peers regarding what is required to be in uniform. I see lots of overweight folks in uniform and when I see quite a few of them I'm aware that the folks who do a most of the work and give up a lot of their time have shown up.  Many who wear a goatee do so for reasons of self esteem along with the fact that they are influenced by their spouse not to shave it off. If I'm not mistaken soldiers in Canada and some European countries also are permitted to wear beards. No gas masks and no ticks should make it not a big deal. You can't make gray hair go away as easily as you can make gray slacks go away.

[Slim]

If you look at an obese Senior in uniform be a little more thoughtful. To suggest he is a slob is unfair. Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain that is devastating to them personally. If you define a slob as someone who doesn't seem to care how they look that individual can be influenced by their Squadron Commander and their peers regarding what is required to be in uniform. I see lots of overweight folks in uniform and when I see quite a few of them I'm aware that the folks who do a most of the work and give up a lot of their time have shown up.  Many who wear a goatee do so for reasons of self esteem along with the fact that they are influenced by their spouse not to shave it off. If I'm not mistaken soldiers in Canada and some European countries also are permitted to wear beards. No gas masks and no ticks should make it not a big deal. You can't make gray hair go away as easily as you can make gray slacks go away.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[cap235629]

If you look at an obese Senior in uniform be a little more thoughtful. To suggest he is a slob is unfair. Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain that is devastating to them personally. If you define a slob as someone who doesn't seem to care how they look that individual can be influenced by their Squadron Commander and their peers regarding what is required to be in uniform. I see lots of overweight folks in uniform and when I see quite a few of them I'm aware that the folks who do a most of the work and give up a lot of their time have shown up.  Many who wear a goatee do so for reasons of self esteem along with the fact that they are influenced by their spouse not to shave it off. If I'm not mistaken soldiers in Canada and some European countries also are permitted to wear beards. No gas masks and no ticks should make it not a big deal. You can't make gray hair go away as easily as you can make gray slacks go away.

Or just might be a DISABLED VETERAN who's injuries sustained while ON ACTIVE DUTY are the underlying cause for such obesity.  I have intimate personal knowledge of one such individual  who has done everything he can think of to lose weight but is prohibited from exercise because of his injury.  The next option is weight loss surgery strictly for health reasons.

CAP was founded by folks who could not meet military standards or they would have been in the military.

We are not combatants.  Only a very small portion of our membership actually do Ground Team tasks.  Do I feel they need to be in shape? ABSOLUTELY.  However, those folks don't go anywhere unless there is an Incident command staff sitting on their duffs somewhere USING THEIR BRAINS!  Do I have to run an 8 minute mile to be an effective Incident Commander?  I say NO!

So this being the case, uniforms are necessary for those in this situation.

[Spike]

^  :clap:

I also would like to point out that the "arbitrary" weight standards the USAF implemented to keep CAP members out of AF style uniforms is criminal.  I see FAT (and I mean FAT, FAT, FAT) Airman and NCO's that if were members of CAP would be wearing the Corporate uniform. 

What do we tell the the guy who is 5'7'', and weighs 210?  We tell them "here is your polo shirt and grey pants".  Now what if this guy is not "over limits" because of FAT, but because of MUSCLE??  Is that at all fair?  He can't wear the AF style uniform, but can run further, march farther, and carry three people out of a burning aircraft by himself, while the AF NCO deploys weighing 250 pounds.  (AF.mil had an article a few months ago about an Airman who deployed as a "FATTY" and some how found the time to loose almost 100 pounds. 

It goes to how we perceive the standards.  Don't be so quick to judge those in Corporate wear.  The person you are critiquing most likely is a better person than you are.

The AF needs to lighten up it's standards for CAP, or at least enforce more strictly its own standards first.  (and yes, I know they "enforce standards", but flagging a guy from promoting until he drops 30 pounds is not enforcement.  Enforcement would be telling the guy he has 6 months to lose the weight or he will be discharged)

[JohnKachenmeister]

The current weight standards for CAP are indeed arbitrary.  They were designed with the idea that CAP members are too stupid to use a tape measure and simple math to calculate body fat.  Also, they stop at age 50.

Under the current CAP weight standards, I can weigh a maximum on-the-scale of 200 pounds, including the clothing allowance.  On active duty in the Army I weighed between 216-220 pounds, and PASSED the body-fat determination tests.  And that was when I was much younger!

What's wrong with this picture?

I have softened my attitude toward facial hair somewhat, but the CAP attitude of completely abandoning ALL grooming standards with the corporate white-and-grays and BBDU's is, in my humble opinion, counterproductive.  Well-groomed beards and slightly longer hair should be the rule, not looking like a gang of bikers or members of the Charles Manson family.

[RiverAux]

The current CAP weight standards haven't been changed since they were implemented in the early 1980s and represent a 10% allowance above what the USAF standards were at the time.  In a happy coincidence the CAP standards happen to be almost right on the boundary between Overweight and Obese using the modern-day BMI standards.

And anyone who thinks that CAP was formed so that people too fat to join the military might want to consider that the obesity rates of today are way, way, way higher than they were in the 1940s.  Take a look at photos of CAP members of the time and while you will probably find a few overweight folks, its nothing like today. 

[Ned]

Don't be so quick to judge those in Corporate wear.  The person you are critiquing most likely is a better person than you are.

I dunno about that.  I think it is more like 50-50.

I've noticed that only about 50% of CAP members are below average.

[Spike]

In a happy coincidence the CAP standards happen to be almost right on the boundary between Overweight and Obese using the modern-day BMI standards.

Relevance?  I am considered over my BMI "group", but not because of FAT.  I choose to work out to relieve stress and do something with friends. 

BMI is also arbitrary, in today's world.  How can they consider me to be "obese" when I have no protruding fat? (Everyone has fat, mine is just not as thick as others....I understand)

The AF style uniform restrictions regarding weight are stupid and silly.  However that is the rule we must follow, and I joined CAP for other reasons than wearing a AF Style Uniforms.

On the other side, a well groomed man or woman should not have to meet military restrictions regarding facial hair to wear CAP uniforms.  Like KACH said above, if you present a neat appearance with a beard or goatee, I have no problem with that.  Let them whatever they want.

 

[RiverAux]

Just pointing out that someone didn't pull the CAP standards out of a hat.  Is the 10% above the old AF weight limits any better than 9% or worse than 11%?  Hard to say, but since it approximates modern-day BMI standards which are generally accepted as weight management tools, then they are about as good as you're going to ever get.   

And don't go throwing out those muscle-man arguements.  I don't think I've ever met a CAP member who couldn't wear an AF-style uniform because of too much muscle mass.  In the military that certainly is a bigger issue, but I would feel confident in saying that 95% or more of the CAP members who don't meet the weight standards are just just fat due to their own actions and not due to various physical issues.   

The above might seem like we're straying from the thread topic, but the basic reason for why we have so many uniform choices comes down to weight and grooming. 

[Stonewall]

Some folks have medical issues that drive excessive weight gain...

Yes, some folks.  What's the percentage?

While obesity is predominantly associated with over eating or consuming otherwise unhealthy foods; the three main conditions which can cause obesity are hypothyroidism, Cushing's syndrome and depression.  My niece, a 911 dispatcher in Richmond, has one of the above conditions and weighs in at 300 lbs.  She's only in her late 20s.

But across the board, how many Americans are obese due to these "medical issues" versus reasons related to overeating, irregular meals or a lack of daily physical activity.  My guess is that obesity is caused by a medical condition in fewer than 10% of obesity cases in America.  If that's the case, then we need to get off our arses.  It ain't easy; I struggle with my weight because like many of us, I love to eat.  But since getting off of active duty in 1995 I've been going to a gym or working out in some fashion.  I lost the fight for a year between 98 & 99 when I battled depression and gained close to 40 lbs in a year.  After I realized the issue, I changed and lost that weight in about 6 months, the healthy way.

Yes, the fact is there are some obese people who can honestly say they are victims of a sickness that they can't do anything about.  What are we teaching cadets when we show up to SAREX's with donuts and coffee as snacks?  Or have "working nights" where we share 5 large "Meatapalooza" pizzas?  Maybe we should start a CAP version of Biggest Loser.

In the movie Super Size Me they compared smoking and obesity, and how it has become socially acceptable to heckle smokers. They asked when would it become socially acceptable to heckle fat people eating at McDonald's etc.

Sorry, off topic, but somewhat related to the CPU and the need for it.  Just a sensitive subject for me.

[ColonelJack]

I'm going to go along with Kirt on this one.  I spent the bulk of my adult life hovering between being obese, morbidly obese, and just plain stupidly obese -- and it was all my fault.  I love to eat too.

But last year -- my 50th birthday, on 26 Sep -- I decided enough was enough.  That day, I weighed 271 pounds.  (I stand 5 feet 8 inches tall.)  Today, seven months later, I weigh 171 pounds.  Yes, I lost 100 pounds in seven months, with a 1000-calorie-a-day diet and a bit more exercise than I had been doing.

I did it for a variety of reasons -- I want 50 more birthdays, I want to buy my clothing off the rack, etc.  But there's one more reason I did it.

This week, I'm sending in my paperwork.  After 12 years in retirement and after a long period of soul-searching to make sure my burnout was cured ... I am rejoining Civil Air Patrol.  My unit needs a Public Affiars Officer, and I fit the bill ... seems that my work in television and radio is something the unit can use.  The squadron CC says all I need is Level I, CPPT, and OPSEC, and I even get my rank back.

Yay me!! 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Jack

[jimmydeanno]

Off Topic, but Congratulations Jack!  :clap:

[Spike]

And don't go throwing out those muscle-man arguments.  I don't think I've ever met a CAP member who couldn't wear an AF-style uniform because of too much muscle mass.  In the military that certainly is a bigger issue, but I would feel confident in saying that 95% or more of the CAP members who don't meet the weight standards are just just fat due to their own actions and not due to various physical issues.   

Hmmm.......Where and when would you like to meet.  PM me!  I am a work out freak.

I have no problem wearing the Corporate variations, but just wanted everyone to know I don't like it, but will do it because of the rules.

I also wanted to get across that not all corporate uniform wearing members are "fat".  I really dislike that argument, and it seems like that is the first thing thrown out when discussing uniform options. 

Honestly, when the Military services start "booting" members for being fat, instead of "counseling them and flagging them", and when no Airman is over limits, then I say start enforcing weight and grooming standards on CAP. 

River.......just because you have never seen something doesn't mean it may not exist. 

[Hawk200]

Have to agree with UK on this, too.

The point of convient food as opposed to good food is something that we need to consider too. I'm guiilty of getting good deals on pizza to bring to meetings since I work at a pizza place. Not really seeing that as a positive thing anymore.

A few years ago, I started noticing that pants and such were fitting a little more snug. I was close around 190 (which at 5'10" isn't really all that bad), but didn't like the idea of getting any heavier. My weight loss plan was simple, watch portions (go for the six inch sub instead of the foot long), and walking at a brisk pace for four nights a week. No supplements or special foods. In four months went from 190 to 165. Felt better, clothes fit better, started looking better.

Will probably start that same routine when I get back. Gained a little, and just don't have any real energy. I'm realizing that fitness is part of a lifestyle, not just an occasional necesary evil.

I'm thinking that even though there might be a backlash, weight is probably the kind of thing that needs to be addressed. Maybe an occasional class on fitness and proper diet might not hurt.

If they start weigh-ins, I'll be first in line. May not like the results, but I'll own up to it. If we do so, cadets will follow suit. May take a while, but I figure it will happen.

All in all, it might not be a bad idea to start considering BMI in figuring out who might be able to still wear blues. It's kind of crazy to tell a guy with an Adonis-like build that he can't wear blues because he's "overweight". That flattering appearance is the kind of thing that should be encouraged, not penalized because of crazy numbers.

[Spike]

It's kind of crazy to tell a guy with an Adonis-like build that he can't wear blues because he's "overweight". That flattering appearance is the kind of thing that should be encouraged, not penalized because of crazy numbers.

I wouldn't say "Adonis" just thick, and not thick as in fat.  I would welcome the AF body fat measurement system.  I was "husky" as a kid.  Husky meaning I had to buy from the "fat kids" section at the department store.  In school I joined the wrestling team and ran track and stayed active in intramural sports in college.  I lost the body weight, and when I went to the military, my friends got me into lifting weights.     

I agree there are serious weight issues in our Country!  Physical fitness and eating properly need to be addressed...... however, it is harder to do than most "skinny" people think, who never had to spend one minute worrying about what they were eating or being singled out for being a fat kid.  I couldn't help I was a fat kid, that was environment. 

The only good thing about being fat is you will live longer when the food runs out when the swine flu scares all of us into sheltering in our basements and not going outside for fear of getting sick!

BTW.....the polo shirt is the most comfortable uniform option.  It is both stylish and business casual.  You can even get your name embroidered on it so everyone knows who you are!!

[Larry Mangum]

How many times are you guys going to beat that dead horse to death over uniforms and peoples appearance? We all know of people who should not be wearing the AF uniforms, but do, and until national cracks down on the regions and wings, nothing will change. 

Why not move on to more productive discussions of which there are many on this board.

[Spike]

Why not move on to more productive discussions of which there are many on this board.

Go start one then!

[es_g0d]

until national cracks down on the regions and wings, nothing will change.

Its not "National's" responsibility; its ALL of our responsibility.  If you like the status quo, you'll wait for "National."

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just pointing out that someone didn't pull the CAP standards out of a hat.  Is the 10% above the old AF weight limits any better than 9% or worse than 11%?  Hard to say, but since it approximates modern-day BMI standards which are generally accepted as weight management tools, then they are about as good as you're going to ever get.   

And don't go throwing out those muscle-man arguements.  I don't think I've ever met a CAP member who couldn't wear an AF-style uniform because of too much muscle mass.  In the military that certainly is a bigger issue, but I would feel confident in saying that 95% or more of the CAP members who don't meet the weight standards are just just fat due to their own actions and not due to various physical issues.   

The above might seem like we're straying from the thread topic, but the basic reason for why we have so many uniform choices comes down to weight and grooming.

Actually, "Pulling out of a hat" is pretty much what happened.

The AF back in the 80's laid a requirement on CAP that the fat guys NOT wear the AF uniform and wear the Corp. uniform instead. (The Corp. uniform already existed so the long-haired guys could stay).  Somebody on the NB decided that units could not do body fat determinations, and a basic standard allowance over USAF basic-training entry weights was set at 10 per cent.

[capchiro]

Just to disprove a myth, the Air Force does kick people out for being overweight.  My brother, a dental tech, was 15 pounds overweight.  They wrote him up and sent him to a psychologist.  The Air Force psychologist told him that if he was happy being 15 pounds overweight, it was his life.  Thereafter, he put no effort into losing the weight and they gave him a general discharge..  Now he is sorry..  But then again, little brothers can't ever do anything right.  JMHO..   

[AlphaSigOU]

Just to disprove a myth, the Air Force does kick people out for being overweight. 

And Ma Blue does NOT grant any waivers or favors. The regs are firm and inflexible. Back in my day WIWOAD over 20 years ago I was in an AFSC that made it too easy to pack on the pounds (food service specialist); in those days there was no mandatory PT, just the annual mile-and-a-half run. In my younger, less experienced days I ignored friendly advice; when I was standing tall before the commander being told I was getting the boot for being overweight is too late to turn back the clock. Poof! Port call back to the states and and an admin discharge.

Do I regret the decisions I made when I was younger? Yes. Do I dwell about them today? No. If I don't feel comfortable wearing AF style or don't present a professional appearance in them I have the option of wearing corporates.

[heliodoc]

Thanks for your service and post CPT Corway

NOW for you CAPers bent on this.......you could possibly leave QUITE a personnel and EXPERIENCE vacuum if you go down this road

Try that for all you non RM type uniform wearing types and see what you get...


HOPE you 'd be happy with the result.   If you are not happy with your larger sized CAPer members then let them wear corporates the polos.  But until NHQ comes down with the dictum....
Who do you think you folks are other than uni Nazis??  Are you the new Weight Watcher Command for Kombat Air Patrol??

These folks no matter their weights, are serving where they could not now.  AND some are some  VERY Nskilled folks

Good work CAP talkers.   Maybe for you commenters, maybe you need 11 weeks of RM butt beating PT....we KNOW you want it!!!

[Spike]

Just to disprove a myth, the Air Force does kick people out for being overweight.  My brother, a dental tech, was 15 pounds overweight.  They wrote him up and sent him to a psychologist.  The Air Force psychologist told him that if he was happy being 15 pounds overweight, it was his life. 

WOW!  Instead of seeing a nutritionist or related field expert.  Unbelievable.

 

[AlphaSigOU]

WOW!  Instead of seeing a nutritionist or related field expert.  Unbelievable.

Ma Blue isn't necessarily the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to policy... Every squadron orderly room had a medical scale, but was it regularly calibrated for accuracy? Probably. When they later began measuring BMI, is an orderly room clerk a medical tech trained in how to properly do so? The reg says how to get it done. Bust a few weigh-ins then life gets worse for you. LOCs, LORs, a UIF and then discharge processing. Those of us overseas got a couple of extra weeks because of getting a port call date back to the States for discharge, but those who were already in the land of round doorknobs got shown the main gate within a week of the discharge notice.

[cap235629]

Just to disprove a myth, the Air Force does kick people out for being overweight.  My brother, a dental tech, was 15 pounds overweight.  They wrote him up and sent him to a psychologist.  The Air Force psychologist told him that if he was happy being 15 pounds overweight, it was his life. 

WOW!  Instead of seeing a nutritionist or related field expert.  Unbelievable.

Who says they owe you this?

I was discharged for failure to maintain Army Weight Control Standards.  My weight gain was greatly contributed to by being on profile for 6 month's due to a traumatic injury sustained in the line of duty.

I was NOT given the opportunity to go to "High Point" (the nutritional and exercise program for overweight soldiers) when other soldiers who were not nearly as out of standards as I were allowed to go, nor was I given the opportunity to have a day of recovery for a day of profile before I was required to have a weigh in and PT test.  I was afforded a JAG consult and was told that the Army had no duty to provide me extra help to maintain standards.  I was discharged Honorably without separation pay (IT WAS STARTED 3 MONTHS LATER) and classified as a disabled veteran when my injuries continued to plague me for many years before I went to the VA.

I am sure the AF handles thing similarly (i.e. sporadically enforcing the same standards from command to command)

[Spike]

Who says they owe you this?

May I ask how long ago this was?  Maybe the rules changed since you got out. 

[Larry Mangum]

The Army, Air Force and Marines have always been intolerant of overweight people.  If anything it may be getting worse for airman as the Air Force has totally revamped its physical fitness standards.  Post 911 deployments to the sandbox, revealed serious shortcomings in its fitness programs and the annual 1.5 miles run has been replaced by more stringent standards.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Thanks for your service and post CPT Corway

NOW for you CAPers bent on this.......you could possibly leave QUITE a personnel and EXPERIENCE vacuum if you go down this road

Try that for all you non RM type uniform wearing types and see what you get...


HOPE you 'd be happy with the result.   If you are not happy with your larger sized CAPer members then let them wear corporates the polos.  But until NHQ comes down with the dictum....
Who do you think you folks are other than uni Nazis??  Are you the new Weight Watcher Command for Kombat Air Patrol??

These folks no matter their weights, are serving where they could not now.  AND some are some  VERY Nskilled folks

Good work CAP talkers.   Maybe for you commenters, maybe you need 11 weeks of RM butt beating PT....we KNOW you want it!!!

I do not understand your point.

[O-Rex]

Time for some levity here before the mod starts jingling his keys 

My proposal comes from the Army's example, i.e.,

Field ACU's

Flight ACU's

Service ACU's

Parade ACU's

Evening Dress ACU's

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think we all can agree that the many uniforms of the CAP create an image problem, both to internal and external audiences, and reduce the sense of "Esprit-de-Corps that comes with uniformed service.

The solution, however, is the tough call.

There are several possible solutions:

1.  Approach the AF with a proposed modification of the CAP weight standards, so that most, if not all, CAP members can wear the USAF uniform.  Not likely, I agree, but until we run something up the flagpole, we have no way of knowing if anyone will salute.

2.  Abandon the USAF uniform in favor of putting all officers in the TPU, calling it a "Modified USAF uniform."  Yes, this is distasteful to some, including me.  This is especially true since the NLO convinced the NB to disrespect combat veterans by forbiding the wear of military decorations and calling combat service "Inappropriate" for CAP members.  We would also have to allow for some level of "Fuzziness" but hopefully short of the "Outlaw Biker" image that some CAP members present in the white-and-gray.

3.  Abandon the TPU, the white-and-gray, and the USAF uniform for a new Corporate uniform that incorporates features placing it closer to the new USAF dress uniform, the "Hap Arnold Heritage" uniform, but with enough differences that the USAF won't have a cow over a fat guy wearing it.

4.  Put everybody in the lowest-common-denominator uniform, the white and grays.  Get rid of the AF and TPU uniforms.

[Ned]

I think we all can agree that the many uniforms of the CAP create an image problem, both to internal and external audiences, and reduce the sense of "Esprit-de-Corps that comes with uniformed service.

Non concur with your premise.

I have an active member for multiple decades, and I literally have never once heard a non-member or stakeholder comment negatively on the variety of uniforms worn by members.

(Sure, I have had them ask "why?", but never heard a negative comment once the reasons are explained.)

And even amongst members, in my experience most don't really care.  The primary concerns of members are cost, consistency (don't keep changing things), and a minimum of professional appearance.

This board (as well as the proverbial post-meeting parking lot) certainly generates a lot of discussion.  But we must clearly understand that we are not representative of the membership as a whole.  We are literally the vocal minority.

That's not a bad thing, of course.  But we shouldn't assume that a consensus here on the board is the same thing as a consensus among all members or of the general public.

The reason we have 10 or so different uniforms is because we have at least 10 or so different needs for uniforms.  Every military service seems to have as many or more varieties than we do, and for the same reason.  (And I suspect they will continue to internally debate the same issues as we do.)

CAP can and will continue to fuss and tweak the mix.  Individual uniform combinations will come and go.  But we will always have a large number of uniform choices because of necessity.

Ned Lee