White aviator shirt

[vento]

39-1 is not very clear with the wear of the white aviator shirt by senior members. Is a senior member without grade allowed to wear the white aviator shirt? If so, since the grey epaulet for SM without grade doesn't exist, what insigna should be worn with the white shirt?

Thanks!

[Eclipse]

Yes, SMWOG are authorized to wear it - until you make 2d Lt. you only wear the gray name tag, and any badges and ribbons
you may have earned.

No epaulet sleeves.

[jimmydeanno]

39-1 is not very clear with the wear of the white aviator shirt by senior members. Is a senior member without grade allowed to wear the white aviator shirt? If so, since the grey epaulet for SM without grade doesn't exist, what insigna should be worn with the white shirt?

Thanks!

Yes, the white aviator shirt can be worn by senior members.  In place of the grey epaulet sleeve you would wear two "CAP" cutouts on your collar to represent your grade.

[notaNCO forever]

 SMWOG usually wear the CAP cutouts on the collar of the aviator shirt.

[JoeTomasone]

In place of the grey epaulet sleeve you would wear two "CAP" cutouts on your collar to represent your grade.

SMWOG usually wear the CAP cutouts on the collar of the aviator shirt.

Where is the basis for that in CAPM 39-1?  I agree with Eclipse; SMWOG merely wears no grade insignia.

[LtCol057]

SMWOG wears the CAP cutouts on both sides of the collar for the USAF lt blue shirt. Doesn't say anything about wearing the cutouts on the white aviator shirt.

[Rob Sherlin]

  On the CSU, the cut outs are worn on the jacket lapel if you opt to wear it, but I haven't seen anything about having them on the white aviator shirt.

[notaNCO forever]

 I just looked it doesn't seem to specify either way for SMWOG. In my opinion it would make sense to wear them if they are worn on the blues, but since the regs don't say either way I would say I was wrong and you don't wear them. Must of been an oversight when they published the 39-1.

[jimmydeanno]

SMWOG wears the CAP cutouts on both sides of the collar for the USAF lt blue shirt. Doesn't say anything about wearing the cutouts on the white aviator shirt.

Well, I guess that would imply that they would wear the grey blank epaulets then, wouldn't it.  It says "grey epaulets with embroidered grade insignia."  Since the insignia for SMWOG is the "CAP" device...

[notaNCO forever]

 I think the grey slides are meant for CAP NCOs not for SMWOG.

[JoeTomasone]

I think the grey slides are meant for CAP NCOs not for SMWOG.

Presumably; at Vanguard they are listed specifically as "ENLISTED".

[LtCol057]

It's not like you're gonna be mistaken for RM wearing the white & gray without grade insignia.  The gray nameplate says you're in CAP.

[notaNCO forever]

It's not like you're gonna be mistaken for RM wearing the white & gray without grade insignia.  The gray nameplate says you're in CAP.

The same argument could be made about the blues, so you would think they would choose to do the same thing for both uniforms.

[Rob Sherlin]

By the way, in case anyones interested, I found these shirts for around $16 at www.garffshirts.com. I thought it was a pretty good deal compaired to the $22 some others are charging, and they're the same brand and everything.

[DNall]

FYI, if you can wait for the Army white shirt that's supposed to be coming out within the next couple months, you should go with that. It's the same as the blues shirt, but white (obviously). I believe that's been recommended as part of the ongoing update. If you can't wait, go with something cheap & be prepared to buy the Army one when you need to get a new one in a year or two.

[Rob Sherlin]

  They're coming out with a new shirt and changing it again? I wonder how clear they're going to be on the wear of this one. I think they should have been a little more thorough on the explaination of what to where on the one that is current. It took me a while to find out about the whole epaulet thing (for both the grey and the blue) from postings here.
  I was confused because I was looking at the uniform package deals at the Hock, and in the spot for you to choose epaulets, it gives you the choice (no grade). So, I thought it would be the same for wear with the blue pants, only blue instead of grey, but I was only able to find the blue ones for 2d.Lt. and up. Then someone pointed me to look under regular AF at Vanguard. They had lower ranks, but it seemed only for SGT levels.
  Anyway, after a lot of confusion, I was told that they originaly made the plain greys for members below Officer rank to pin the metal ranks on, but no one wears them.

[JoeTomasone]

I think the grey slides are meant for CAP NCOs not for SMWOG.

Presumably; at Vanguard they are listed specifically as "ENLISTED".

Sent the Q into the Knowledgebase, they replied (essentially) that this epaulet is worn by a SMWOG. 

[vento]

Thanks to all for the help with clarifications. 
I guess the best bet is no epaulet sleeves for SMWOG.

[DNall]

I think the grey slides are meant for CAP NCOs not for SMWOG.

Presumably; at Vanguard they are listed specifically as "ENLISTED".

Sent the Q into the Knowledgebase, they replied (essentially) that this epaulet is worn by a SMWOG. 

That would be wrong. Though I like that answer, it is not what it specified in regs.

Everyone else, I sympathize with your pain on the poor nature of our current reg and the way that's translated by our couple retailers. I've been assured those issues are being addressed by our uniform cmte & you should see some progress at the next NB meeting. I'm sorry CAP has been screwed up in the past. We can't change that. We can only work to make it right in the future.

[O-Rex]

It's not like you're gonna be mistaken for RM wearing the white & gray without grade insignia.  The gray nameplate says you're in CAP.

Given the reactions to the new Army uniform, I thin the RM is more concerned with being mistaken for a CAP member....

I'd love to get the Army white shirts when they come out: the USAF epaulets don't quite fit on the standard Aviator Shirt.

I just hope the permanent "fore & aft" military creases they are talking about can be ironed out.

I'm looking to uniform dealers like Marlow White or Supertrooper to be the first to offer them.

[notaNCO forever]

 I think that any permanent creases would be sown in so it won't work.

[JoeTomasone]

I think the grey slides are meant for CAP NCOs not for SMWOG.

Presumably; at Vanguard they are listed specifically as "ENLISTED".

Sent the Q into the Knowledgebase, they replied (essentially) that this epaulet is worn by a SMWOG. 

That would be wrong. Though I like that answer, it is not what it specified in regs.

Actually..... It is:

"Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia."  CAPM 39-1, pp. 75

..It's just that we/I didn't know there was a "gradeless" epaulet.   


Found the story for NCOs: They wear epaulets (where they get them I don't know) OR they wear the cloth chevrons on the sleeve.   CAPM 39-1, pp. 97-98.

"6-1. Wear of Grade Insignia. Cadet and senior member officer grade insignia will be worn on those
uniform items listed in Table 6-1. Cadet NCOs and airman chevrons will be worn on the right
lapel/collar. CAP senior members who hold NCO and airmen grades may wear cloth chevrons sewn on
the sleeve or gray epaulet sleeves with embroidered chevrons. Illustrations of grade insignia and the
proper placement on the uniform are shown in the figures indicated in Table 6-1."


So the bottom line is:

1. SMWOG wears epaulets just like officers do -- with just CAP and no grade insignia.

2. Senior Member airmen/NCOs wear the epaulets with embroidered chevrons OR the cloth chevrons on the sleeves.


Boy, they don't make it easy in 39-1 to find this stuff.

[Eclipse]

1. SMWOG wears epaulets just like officers do -- with just CAP and no grade insignia.

Sorry, I don't agree that's what it says.

No grade, no epaulet sleeve.

The use of the proper term "epaulet sleeve" is important as well, otherwise we'll having people buying shirts without epaulets.

[EMT-83]

I think that Eclipse is right on the money.

In CAPR 39-1, Table 6-1 says the officer grade insignia is embroidered on epaulet sleeve. On the next page, Figure 6-1 shows the gray epaulet sleeves. I don't see a sleeve for SMWOG.

Nothing says SMWOG wear CAP epaulets or CAP cutouts.

[notaNCO forever]

 On none of the other dress uniforms for CAP are the blank slides worn for SMWOG so it probably isn't meant to be any different for the aviator shirt.

[LtCol057]

Does anyone else think this is as clear as mud? 

[DNall]

It's not like you're gonna be mistaken for RM wearing the white & gray without grade insignia.  The gray nameplate says you're in CAP.

Given the reactions to the new Army uniform, I thin the RM is more concerned with being mistaken for a CAP member....

I'd love to get the Army white shirts when they come out: the USAF epaulets don't quite fit on the standard Aviator Shirt.

I just hope the permanent "fore & aft" military creases they are talking about can be ironed out.

I'm looking to uniform dealers like Marlow White or Supertrooper to be the first to offer them.

It's sleeve creases, not marine style fore/aft, and they're stitched in. You can see it okay (not great) on the ASU website.

Marlow white should have them out shortly. It's authorized for wear right now, but not really avail.

[JoeTomasone]

Does anyone else think this is as clear as mud? 

It's very simple, actually.


SMWOG wears this:  http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_410&products_id=7207&zenid=3559b9cf4b6ae4770cd99eebceaab9e6


SM Airman/NCO wears epaulets with chevron embroidered insignia (can't find any, so a moot point) or cloth chevrons on the sleeves.

[arajca]

Does anyone else think this is as clear as mud? 

It's very simple, actually.


SMWOG wears this:  http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_410&products_id=7207&zenid=3559b9cf4b6ae4770cd99eebceaab9e6

Citation/Reg/Man/ICL/anything official please

SM Airman/NCO wears epaulets with chevron embroidered insignia (can't find any, so a moot point) or cloth chevrons on the sleeves.

You need to call VG via phone to get them. There isn't a high demand for them.

[JoeTomasone]

Citation/Reg/Man/ICL/anything official please

Cited above, repeated here:


"Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia."  CAPM 39-1, pp. 75
(In Aviator Shirt description)


"6-1. Wear of Grade Insignia. Cadet and senior member officer grade insignia will be worn on those
uniform items listed in Table 6-1. Cadet NCOs and airman chevrons will be worn on the right
lapel/collar. CAP senior members who hold NCO and airmen grades may wear cloth chevrons sewn on
the sleeve or gray epaulet sleeves with embroidered chevrons. Illustrations of grade insignia and the
proper placement on the uniform are shown in the figures indicated in Table 6-1."   CAPM 39-1, pp. 97-98.



Knowledge Base: Linky


"What grade insignia (if any) is worn by a Senior Member without grade on the Aviator shirt for both the Aviator shirt uniform and the Corporate uniform?"

See Vanguard item CAP0747U SENIOR MEMBER GRAY EPAULETS without rank insignia.


Finally, see the attached from 39-1.

[DNall]

Does anyone else think this is as clear as mud? 

It's very simple, actually.


SMWOG wears this:  http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_408_410&products_id=7207&zenid=3559b9cf4b6ae4770cd99eebceaab9e6


SM Airman/NCO wears epaulets with chevron embroidered insignia (can't find any, so a moot point) or cloth chevrons on the sleeves.

No, they don't. That's a vanguard creation never envisioned or authorized by the NB. Vanguard has a stock of blank slides which they then embroider batches of each rank as needed. This item is out there cause some confused members requested it. Vanguard will is in business to make money, not enforce regs. They'll sell you just about anything you're willing to buy. That doesn't make it legit.

The knowledge base is wrong, as sometimes is the case. It's not hard to understand when they read the reg the way some of yall are & then see that item on the vanguard site, but that doesn't make it right. They're good people trying hard, but they are sometimes incorrect about things.

Now, I got no problem with that item being adopted for SMWOG. I would prefer to avoid cutouts pinned into the collar causing perm damage to the shirt. But that is not the current policy.

I do agree the reg could use some clean up with regard to little addressed items such as SMWOG and FOs. I believe that is underway right now.

[JoeTomasone]

No, they don't. That's a vanguard creation never envisioned or authorized by the NB.

And the reference in 39-1?

"Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia."  CAPM 39-1, pp. 75
(In Aviator Shirt description)

It doesn't say that this applies only to officers.

[DNall]

That's correct, it does not say just officers.

Like many things in that manual, it failed to even consider the existence of SMWOG or FOs or females either in many cases. As the revision is being worked, those issues are being addressed.

However, this is not an authorized uniform item. This is some new member read the reg trying figure out what to buy. Decided that very poor description meant a blank CAP slide. Then demanded Vanguard sell them one, which they did & demand rises from there.

For this to be correct for SMWOG (and again I would probably favor that), NB would have to address the issue and specifically authorize this item.

[JoeTomasone]

OK, so perhaps I am failing to understand how when 39-1 says that the proper insignia for that uniform is the epaulet sleeve that somehow the SMWOG sleeve is not authorized.   To infer that the sleeve is not authorized because it doesn't specifically say that SMWOG or FO or whomever should wear it is a dangerous precedent.    It doesn't say anything about SMWOG because the statement is inclusive.



This can be contrasted with the Service Dress: (39-1 pp. 16)

Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve.
Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear 4-inch cloth chevrons halfway between shoulder seam and
elbow bent at 90-degree angle.

Lapel Insignia: Highly polished U.S. insignia worn by senior member officers; highly polished CAP
insignia worn by senior member NCOs and Airmen and senior members without grade. Insignia is
placed halfway up the seam, resting on but not over it. Bottom of insignia is parallel with the ground.


Here it is clear that SMWOG does NOT wear epaulet sleeves or U.S. insignia on the service coat; instead they wear no epaulet sleeves and CAP insignia.




Another example:  The blue shirt:

Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior
member NCOs and Airmen wear 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray
epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve
wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar.

Here it specifically says that SMWOG wears CAP insignia on both collars.  It does NOT say this for the Aviator shirt.

[EMT-83]

At the risk of beating a dead horse...

39-1 page 75 says "Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia."

39-1 page 99 shows the gray epaulet sleeves.

Looks pretty clear to me.

[Rob Sherlin]

  The whole epaulet sleeve thing came up as a side question when I asked the whole cap flight with the new uniform and was confused about the different shades 1520/1525.
  I too, found the whole thing to be quite confusing with the grey epaulet sleeves (especially when Hock has them stated for senior members "no grade". But, to make it double confusing, I was trying to figure out what epaulet sleeves to wear with the white aviator shirt and blue pants, as I only found epaulet sleeves for officer levels.

[DNall]

Here's some shocking news for everyone... 39-1 is one of the most horribly written manuals in the history of regulations. Compounding that is CAP has historically been completely retarded in their uniform policy.

Like many other things, someone comes up with an idea & they snap off and approve something without having thought it all the way through, and certainly without covering all the intricate details in policy/regulation.

SMWOG, FOs, females, and NCOs are routinely treated as an afterthought in uniform policy.

The fact in this case is a blank ep sleeve cannot be the right item for SMWOG because NB has never authorized such an item to exist. Just because Vanguard has created one doesn't make it legit. Just because the reg is poorly written & prone to misinterpretation, especially when there is this unauthorized item out there, also doesn't make it legit.

Symbolically, grade is worn on shoulders by officers representing the weight of responsibility on their shoulders, while NCOs wear grade on their arms representative of the strength/brawn involved in their duties. A SMWOG in the CAP program is outranked by a FO or NCO. They are for all intents a probationary member in training. As such, just from military symbolism, it's not real appropriate for them to have ep sleeves.

Now, if you want to call them officer candidates, and make an argument for not poking holes in the collar with cutouts, I could get on board with that, but NB would have to pass it & they haven't yet.

[JoeTomasone]

Here's some shocking news for everyone... 39-1 is one of the most horribly written manuals in the history of regulations. Compounding that is CAP has historically been completely retarded in their uniform policy.

No debate there.   It is overdue for a serious rewrite; and one of the people they need on the team is someone with experience checking continuity in movie scripts.   I'm personally waiting for them to do away with the restriction that says that you can't have more than one of the following worn on the uniform: Phone, pager, radio.    When I go into the field, I want my phone and radio with me, and I really don't want to have to hand carry one.

The fact in this case is a blank ep sleeve cannot be the right item for SMWOG because NB has never authorized such an item to exist. Just because Vanguard has created one doesn't make it legit. Just because the reg is poorly written & prone to misinterpretation, especially when there is this unauthorized item out there, also doesn't make it legit.

I'll take you at your word about the NB because I simply haven't followed all of their actions, but still, the reg says to wear grade insignia on epaulets.   It doesn't say for SMWOG to wear nothing (or as someone posted, CAP cutouts on the shirt).   Until a rewrite occurs, what choice do we have other than to consider the reg inclusionary and have the KB article as backup?

Symbolically, grade is worn on shoulders by officers representing the weight of responsibility on their shoulders, while NCOs wear grade on their arms representative of the strength/brawn involved in their duties. A SMWOG in the CAP program is outranked by a FO or NCO. They are for all intents a probationary member in training. As such, just from military symbolism, it's not real appropriate for them to have ep sleeves.

I would say "historically", since USAF has had senior NCO epaulets for over 20 years. 

[DNall]

The fact in this case is a blank ep sleeve cannot be the right item for SMWOG because NB has never authorized such an item to exist. Just because Vanguard has created one doesn't make it legit. Just because the reg is poorly written & prone to misinterpretation, especially when there is this unauthorized item out there, also doesn't make it legit.

I'll take you at your word about the NB because I simply haven't followed all of their actions, but still, the reg says to wear grade insignia on epaulets.   It doesn't say for SMWOG to wear nothing (or as someone posted, CAP cutouts on the shirt).   Until a rewrite occurs, what choice do we have other than to consider the reg inclusionary and have the KB article as backup?

You can and should read the reg correctly. In that it says "OFFICERS" which SMWOG absolutely are not. Therefore, if you are going to default to anything, it would be the NCO standards, which are cutouts on the collar & grade insignia on the sleeve. As there is no grade insignia for SMWOG (just like there is none for AB in the Air Force - and they are equiv ranks), the correct procedure would be nothing on the sleeves.

Does that make more sense? Cause that is the intent of the reg.

Symbolically, grade is worn on shoulders by officers representing the weight of responsibility on their shoulders, while NCOs wear grade on their arms representative of the strength/brawn involved in their duties. A SMWOG in the CAP program is outranked by a FO or NCO. They are for all intents a probationary member in training. As such, just from military symbolism, it's not real appropriate for them to have ep sleeves.

I would say "historically", since USAF has had senior NCO epaulets for over 20 years. 

And super grade NCOs in the Air Force fill the rolls that warrant officers hold in the other services. Upon moving to SNCO, their job becomes less about physically doing the work and more about bearing the responsibility of mgmt/oversight/etc in much the same way an officer does. That is why grade was only on the shoulders of SNCOs & NOT mid or junior grade enlisted. It is absolutely consistent with this symbolism. It was recently changed because AF SNCOs feel it's a betrayal of their NCO status/background/etc to take on officer like symbols and still serve as NCOs. I would tend to agree with them on that, but I don't have to do all that sewing, so what do I know.

[JoeTomasone]

You can and should read the reg correctly. In that it says "OFFICERS" which SMWOG absolutely are not.

Negative, sir.   For the blues it does; for the Aviator shirt it says:

Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia."  CAPM 39-1, pp. 75

It does NOT say "OFFICERS".   If it did, I would agree with your assertion that SMWOG simply wore no epaulets, cutouts, or any other grade insignia.


From the regs: 

Service Dress: 

"Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve."
   
"Lapel Insignia: Highly polished U.S. insignia worn by senior member officers; highly polished CAP
insignia worn by senior member NCOs and Airmen and senior members without grade."



Long Sleeve/Short Sleeve Shirt:

"Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve. Senior members without grade and NCOs and Airmen wearing chevrons on the sleeve wear the CAP lapel/collar insignia on both sides of collar."



Aviator Shirt:

"Grade Insignia: Gray CAP epaulet sleeves displaying grade insignia."
(NOTHING is specifically said about NCOs or SMWOG).


I don't know how it can be any clearer; the language is inclusive for the aviator shirt and exclusive for the blues with respect to SMWOG.   

[DNall]

My apologies then. That is simply a case of oversight in a VERY poorly written regulation. The fact remains that the blank grade slide has never been authorized by CAP, much less specified for wear on any uniform.

The white shirt has always been worn according to exactly the same policy as the blues shirt, with the exception of no mild badges/ribbons. That policy should be congruent.

And while we're sitting here debating technicalities & interpretation... don't worry about it. All this will change/go away within the next several months.

The stated intent of the current uniform board was to realign/consolidate items, simplify policy, back fill details for FO/SMWOG/NCO/females, etc... I have extremely great faith that everyone will be positively impressed with their work.

[JoeTomasone]

My apologies then. That is simply a case of oversight in a VERY poorly written regulation. The fact remains that the blank grade slide has never been authorized by CAP, much less specified for wear on any uniform.

The white shirt has always been worn according to exactly the same policy as the blues shirt, with the exception of no mild badges/ribbons. That policy should be congruent.

And while we're sitting here debating technicalities & interpretation... don't worry about it. All this will change/go away within the next several months.

The stated intent of the current uniform board was to realign/consolidate items, simplify policy, back fill details for FO/SMWOG/NCO/females, etc... I have extremely great faith that everyone will be positively impressed with their work.

I am certainly hoping for just that.   Many of the regs are in dire need of revisiting/revision to reflect the changing times.   We should never have to have threads like this.   I try my best to know/follow the regs as much as possible, so it irks me that certain aspects are in question due to poor wording.

[DNall]

A lot of things happen in CAP because of people with good intentions but who don't take the time to dig into the logic (whole CSU), system/symbolism (IC badge), details (like FO/female/SMWOG/NCO), or at all spend the time to create good policy. The same thing is true in every aspect of CAP. If you see a CAP member planning an activity or exercise, versus anyone in the military or business, the difference - the competence - is dramatic.