Female cadets dressing for Group Ball

[xray328]

My daughter is going to be in the color guard for the group ball. I know females typically dress up in gowns etc though. Does she stay in her blues the whole time though since she's on the color guard? Or do females usually change out then back in?

[THRAWN]

Just out of curiosity, does your cadet actually have a commander or chain of command? Lots of your queztions can and should be answered by them if so....

[xray328]

Just thought folks on here might have seen or done more. There's a lot more experience on here than at most squadrons, they're certainly not all equal in that regard.  How many commanders have female cadets that have attended a formal ball as a color guard member? Not many I'm guessing.

I don't get it though. Why the "don't bother us" attitude? If you want to reply, please do.  If you don't then don't.  It's a forum with folks that generally like helping other folks out.  Sure I could of asked her commander, but that's based one persons limited experience. Why not come on here and ask the experts who have seen and done way more than most? Get a few opinions, that's the purpose of a discussion forum.

I mean no disrespect, I guess I'm just not sure why you replied like that.

[Airplane girl]

I don't know how things are in your particular group, so things might be different there. But as a female cadet who has been to a group military ball, not on a color guard, I wore Class As, since I don't really like wearing dresses. Also, I thought it was just easier to wear Class As, because that way I didn't have to worry about whether the dress I was wearing was too formal or not formal enough. Most of the other female cadets who weren't on the color guard were wearing gowns. The ones on the color guard were in Class Bs, so I wasn't the only one in blues. The female cadets on the color guard didn't change into gowns.

[xray328]

Thank you. Remember I was told it was ok for her to wear male blues pants too.

[PHall]

Just thought folks on here might have seen or done more. There's a lot more experience on here than at most squadrons, they're certainly not all equal in that regard.  How many commanders have female cadets that have attended a formal ball as a color guard member? Not many I'm guessing.

I don't get it though. Why the "don't bother us" attitude? If you want to reply, please do.  If you don't then don't.  It's a forum with folks that generally like helping other folks out.  Sure I could of asked her commander, but that's based one persons limited experience. Why not come on here and ask the experts who have seen and done way more than most? Get a few opinions, that's the purpose of a discussion forum.

I mean no disrespect, I guess I'm just not sure why you replied like that.

Because the answers you get here may not agree with what your local unit does.
It's always best to ask your unit first.

[abdsp51]

Plus a lot of your answers can be obtained by the asking the people in the know there and doing your homework rather than taking the easy way out. 

[xray328]

Again, I was led astray by them to begin with.  This isn't really the easy way out either guys, I worry every time I post a question on here.

[arajca]

Something that helps cutoff the flame throwers when asked a question that is normally a chain of command question is to state you've checked with them and a) they didn't know the answer, 2) their answers were confusing, III) their answers were against regs, or d) their answers contradicted each other.

[Capt Thompson]

I've been to formal balls, both in CAP and Army JROTC. In both cases, either Class A or a gown was appropriate for female Cadets. If she wants to get a gown and dress up after posting the colors, I'd say get her the gown if it's in the budget. If not, staying in Class A the entire night is absolutely fine.

[Ned]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but cadets are not authorized to wear civilian clothes when performing CAP duties, including conferences and balls.  And in particular, there are no gender-specific rules that apply only to female cadets.

Start by looking at CAPR 52-16, para 4-2(a), which talks about how cadets should be in uniform *unless* the duty uniform would be inappropriate (like laundry time, PT, etc.) AND the commander specifies a standardized casual attire like polos and khakis, PT uniform, etc. 

Then read that in conjunction with the 39-1 paras 1.2.3.2 and 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 and you'll see there is simply no "party dress exception" for military balls.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

There is an upside.  As the father of a female cadet, I saved a lot of money NOT buying party dresses. 

And in all seriousness, there are good reasons for this.  It helps ensure that all cadets both act - and are treated - professionally.  Our CP is a leadership development organization, and it is an unfortunate facet of human nature that young women who are required / encouraged to wear party dresses at an official CAP activity will be treated differently than their male colleagues who attend in their required CAP uniforms.  And our terrific female airmen, NCOs, and officers deserve equal treatment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Again, sorry to be the wet blanket here.  I hope your daughter has a great time!

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

[LSThiker]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but cadets are not authorized to wear civilian clothes when performing CAP duties, including conferences and balls.  And in particular, there are no gender-specific rules that apply only to female cadets.

Start by looking at CAPR 52-16, para 4-2(a), which talks about how cadets should be in uniform *unless* the duty uniform would be inappropriate (like laundry time, PT, etc.) AND the commander specifies a standardized casual attire like polos and khakis, PT uniform, etc. 

Then read that in conjunction with the 39-1 paras 1.2.3.2 and 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 and you'll see there is simply no "party dress exception" for military balls.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

There is an upside.  As the father of a female cadet, I saved a lot of money NOT buying party dresses. 

And in all seriousness, there are good reasons for this.  It helps ensure that all cadets both act - and are treated - professionally.  Our CP is a leadership development organization, and it is an unfortunate facet of human nature that young women who are required / encouraged to wear party dresses at an official CAP activity will be treated differently than their male colleagues who attend in their required CAP uniforms.  And our terrific female airmen, NCOs, and officers deserve equal treatment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Again, sorry to be the wet blanket here.  I hope your daughter has a great time!

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Ned, I agree with your logic and reasoning as it is supported by the regulations.  However, I must ask, since you are on National Staff, why did National authorize cadets to wear civilian attire for the 2015 (and previous year) National Conference(s):

Banquet
Mess dress or CAP blazer combination with plain white shirt and black bow tie for senior members, semi-formal uniform for cadets or appropriate civilian attire.  Service Dress is also permitted for those who do not have one of these preferred uniforms.

[Capt Thompson]

Performing CAP duties and attending a CAP social activity are two separate things Colonel. She can't be part of the Color Guard in a gown, she needs to be in uniform, but once her duties are over she would be free to change. Remember she's not on duty during the dance.

[Ned]

Performing CAP duties and attending a CAP social activity are two separate things Colonel. She can't be part of the Color Guard in a gown, she needs to be in uniform, but once her duties are over she would be free to change. Remember she's not on duty during the dance.

I'm afraid I must non-concur.  The question isn't whether she is "on duty" or not, but whether she is at a CAP activity or meeting.  Which she clearly is.

Think of it this way, at a week-long activity like an NCSA or an encampment, there will be periods of time when the the cadets are "off-duty," but that doesn't mean they get to put on heavy metal t-shirts and cut-offs with their hats on backwards while chilling in the barracks.  When wear of the uniform is inappropriate, the commander may specify a "standard" off-duty attire like activity t-shirts and blue shorts or something.

But that is a dramatically different thing than requiring / encouraging gender-based discrimination meant to make only some of our cadets look "pretty".  Really, why would we spend so much time and effort developing leadership skills and then turn around and treat some of our cadets differently based solely on gender?  It's one thing if the guys get to come in suits, but the reality is that this sort of situation requires the males to be dressed professionally with their earned grade and decorations, but the women are relegated to wearing the cutest dress they can find.  I honestly think that no senior member that thinks it through would support this sort of pernicious gender discrimination.


To be fair, the "Cadets in Uniform" language and the supporting clarifications in the new 39-1 are both relatively new, and clearly not everyone has come up to speed.

That's yet another good reason for things like CAP-Talk.

I'm still confident that she is going to have a great time at the activity.  It sounds like fun.

[abdsp51]

Performing CAP duties and attending a CAP social activity are two separate things Colonel. She can't be part of the Color Guard in a gown, she needs to be in uniform, but once her duties are over she would be free to change. Remember she's not on duty during the dance.

I'm afraid I must non-concur.  The question isn't whether she is "on duty" or not, but whether she is at a CAP activity or meeting.  Which she clearly is.

Think of it this way, at a week-long activity like an NCSA or an encampment, there will be periods of time when the the cadets are "off-duty," but that doesn't mean they get to put on heavy metal t-shirts and cut-offs with their hats on backwards while chilling in the barracks.  When wear of the uniform is inappropriate, the commander may specify a "standard" off-duty attire like activity t-shirts and blue shorts or something.

But that is a dramatically different thing than requiring / encouraging gender-based discrimination meant to make only some of our cadets look "pretty".  Really, why would we spend so much time and effort developing leadership skills and then turn around and treat some of our cadets differently based solely on gender?  It's one thing if the guys get to come in suits, but the reality is that this sort of situation requires the males to be dressed professionally with their earned grade and decorations, but the women are relegated to wearing the cutest dress they can find.  I honestly think that no senior member that thinks it through would support this sort of pernicious gender discrimination.


To be fair, the "Cadets in Uniform" language and the supporting clarifications in the new 39-1 are both relatively new, and clearly not everyone has come up to speed.

That's yet another good reason for things like CAP-Talk.

I'm still confident that she is going to have a great time at the activity.  It sounds like fun.

So question for you then sir.  What action will be taken next year at CA Wg's Annual CPC that has a ball/dance (fill in the blank) when female cadets wear a gown or a dress? 

[Ned]

What action will be taken next year at CA Wg's Annual CPC that has a ball/dance (fill in the blank) when female cadets wear a gown or a dress?

I doubt it will be an issue.  The good folks at CAWG -- just like most wings -- follow the regulations. 

And although I haven't checked with the new DCP, Lt Col Ishikata, I'm confident that he will track the new language in the regulation and issue the appropriate guidance.  That's just what good leaders do.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I hate to be another wet blanket, but the first time I read this post, I thought Why is Xray posting for his daughter?

It seems he is dictating her what she should be wearing. Should not this be a female cadet's concern, as long as she does not seem to violate CAP regs?

[PHall]

I hate to be another wet blanket, but the first time I read this post, I thought Why is Xray posting for his daughter?

It seems he is dictating her what she should be wearing. Should not this be a female cadet's concern, as long as she does not seem to violate CAP regs?

Well, he is her father and last time I looked Dad's usually have a lot to say when it comes to what their daughter wears in public.

[MSG Mac]

Generally the conference ends at the close of business and various sessions. The Banquet is an add on after the close of that business and a separate event.

[xray328]

I hate to be another wet blanket, but the first time I read this post, I thought Why is Xray posting for his daughter?

It seems he is dictating her what she should be wearing. Should not this be a female cadet's concern, as long as she does not seem to violate CAP regs?

Well, he is her father and last time I looked Dad's usually have a lot to say when it comes to what their daughter wears in public.

Well yeah there's that (she's 12) and I'm in charge of the Color Guard detail. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

I had not heard of the father being that controlling, usually it's the mom's job.

However being in charge of the Color Guard, does have a lot...

What I have seen is some female cadets do change, others stay since they will retire the Colors after it is over. So it may not pay to present the Colors, change to a gown, then change back to retire the Colors.

Unless its your custom to retire the Colors before starting the dance...

[xray328]

It's not a control issue...at all. As the Assistant Deputy Commander for Cadets and OIC of the Color Guard I want to make sure my cadet (who just happens to also be my daughter) adheres to proper protocol.

And besides, I'm not telling her what to wear in an "overly protective" dad sort of way. I'm asking what female cadets normally do in this situation.

Sounds like she should just plan on staying in uniform though. Hopefully we can utilize the CG during awards, etc.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Xray, never explain or justify yourself as a parent. The fact that you are involved puts you to the head of the line in my book. I am another parent that is also the Deputy Commander for Cadets for a squadron. I understand the tightrope that we have to walk. My hat is off to you Sir :clap:.

[xray328]

Thank you.

[Tim Day]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but cadets are not authorized to wear civilian clothes when performing CAP duties, including conferences and balls.  And in particular, there are no gender-specific rules that apply only to female cadets.

Start by looking at CAPR 52-16, para 4-2(a), which talks about how cadets should be in uniform *unless* the duty uniform would be inappropriate (like laundry time, PT, etc.) AND the commander specifies a standardized casual attire like polos and khakis, PT uniform, etc. 

Then read that in conjunction with the 39-1 paras 1.2.3.2 and 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 and you'll see there is simply no "party dress exception" for military balls.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

There is an upside.  As the father of a female cadet, I saved a lot of money NOT buying party dresses. 

And in all seriousness, there are good reasons for this.  It helps ensure that all cadets both act - and are treated - professionally.  Our CP is a leadership development organization, and it is an unfortunate facet of human nature that young women who are required / encouraged to wear party dresses at an official CAP activity will be treated differently than their male colleagues who attend in their required CAP uniforms.  And our terrific female airmen, NCOs, and officers deserve equal treatment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Again, sorry to be the wet blanket here.  I hope your daughter has a great time!

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Col Lee, this is the first time I've heard that CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 52-16 were intended to communicate that a Wing Commander does not have the authority to allow the wearing of gowns at Wing Conference balls.

While I agree with cadets (males and females) wearing uniforms at this type of event, neither CAPR 52-16 or CAPM 39-1 are clear at all. CAPR 52-16 Para 4-3a is a note about how cadets behave better when they're in uniform, which is interesting but not prescriptive. CAPM 39-1 1.2.3.2 just notes that cadets will wear the uniform as part of their experience, but there's nothing about "at every activity". CAPM 39-1 1.2.4.2 states Region Commanders, Wing Commanders, and Activity Directors may stipulate appropriate civilian clothes ... at events where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes (which many might say includes a ball). Does this not include cadets? How do we know?

If the intent was to restrict Commanders from the prerogative to allow civilian clothes for cadets at any activity, then why not just say so? For example:

CAPR 52-16 4-3a. Cadets in Uniform. Discipline tends to remain high and horseplay is minimized if cadets remain in uniform during activities. Cadets will wear a CAP uniform during all CAP activities. When BDUs or blues are not appropriate, such as during fitness activities, laundry time, downtime, etc., unit commanders and activity directors may designate a standardized casual "uniform," such as khakis and a special tee shirt, versus non-standardized civilian attire of the cadets' choosing.

and

CAPM 39-1 1.2.4.2 ... add (not applicable to cadets) or delete the whole phrase regarding events where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes.

[TheSkyHornet]

Just out of curiosity, does your cadet actually have a commander or chain of command? Lots of your queztions can and should be answered by them if so....

It's not uncommon for people above you or below you in your squadron to have no answer or a really bad answer on those "non-standard" questions

Asking the C/CC often results in "I don't know" with a bunch of people chiming in with different answers. Asking the CC or Dep. CC for Seniors often results in an answer that is completely outside of what regs actually state.

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but cadets are not authorized to wear civilian clothes when performing CAP duties, including conferences and balls.  And in particular, there are no gender-specific rules that apply only to female cadets.

Start by looking at CAPR 52-16, para 4-2(a), which talks about how cadets should be in uniform *unless* the duty uniform would be inappropriate (like laundry time, PT, etc.) AND the commander specifies a standardized casual attire like polos and khakis, PT uniform, etc. 

Then read that in conjunction with the 39-1 paras 1.2.3.2 and 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 and you'll see there is simply no "party dress exception" for military balls.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

There is an upside.  As the father of a female cadet, I saved a lot of money NOT buying party dresses. 

And in all seriousness, there are good reasons for this.  It helps ensure that all cadets both act - and are treated - professionally.  Our CP is a leadership development organization, and it is an unfortunate facet of human nature that young women who are required / encouraged to wear party dresses at an official CAP activity will be treated differently than their male colleagues who attend in their required CAP uniforms.  And our terrific female airmen, NCOs, and officers deserve equal treatment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Again, sorry to be the wet blanket here.  I hope your daughter has a great time!

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Col Lee, this is the first time I've heard that CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 52-16 were intended to communicate that a Wing Commander does not have the authority to allow the wearing of gowns at Wing Conference balls.

While I agree with cadets (males and females) wearing uniforms at this type of event, neither CAPR 52-16 or CAPM 39-1 are clear at all. CAPR 52-16 Para 4-3a is a note about how cadets behave better when they're in uniform, which is interesting but not prescriptive. CAPM 39-1 1.2.3.2 just notes that cadets will wear the uniform as part of their experience, but there's nothing about "at every activity". CAPM 39-1 1.2.4.2 states Region Commanders, Wing Commanders, and Activity Directors may stipulate appropriate civilian clothes ... at events where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes (which many might say includes a ball). Does this not include cadets? How do we know?

If the intent was to restrict Commanders from the prerogative to allow civilian clothes for cadets at any activity, then why not just say so? For example:

CAPR 52-16 4-3a. Cadets in Uniform. Discipline tends to remain high and horseplay is minimized if cadets remain in uniform during activities. Cadets will wear a CAP uniform during all CAP activities. When BDUs or blues are not appropriate, such as during fitness activities, laundry time, downtime, etc., unit commanders and activity directors may designate a standardized casual "uniform," such as khakis and a special tee shirt, versus non-standardized civilian attire of the cadets' choosing.

and

CAPM 39-1 1.2.4.2 ... add (not applicable to cadets) or delete the whole phrase regarding events where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes.

Intent doesn't really matter in a published document. People can't read your intention, no matter how well thought out they may be. People can only read what it written, so it better be written to reflect intent and leave out assumptions.

What I don't understand is why someone would feel that you would have a different behavior by someone in uniform versus out of uniform in the cadet program? They know the protocols, just like every service member at a military ball. I highly doubt a 15-year-old girl who acts professionally and responsibly when wearing her blues at a PD weekend will act like trash wearing a cocktail dress or evening gown at a formal ball. Likewise, anybody that makes some snarky comment or inappropriate gesture, should that occur, should be smacked upside the head. I'll even turn my back for a few moments while I straighten my tie and let the events play out if the young lady so decides to do so.

In ROTC, the women all wore formal dresses (even though they were allowed to wear Class As, and their dates wore suits. The men wore Class As, and their dates wore dresses. Nobody started slinging mud. Nobody talked about anybody's chest or legs. If anyone did, Master Sergeant would have had a field day with you after in front of the entire battalion.

That being said, the regs are the regs, and we don't go around them just because "this is stupid." We follow them and standby for amendments to the regs, and until then, we deal with it.

[Ned]

Colonel Day,

Thank you for your thoughtful response.  Let me see if I can address some of your concerns,

neither CAPR 52-16 or CAPM 39-1 are clear at all.[. . .]

While I can only agree that almost any regulation could be written more clearly, I honestly don't think there is much wiggle room on this subject when the regulations are read together.  But I've taken your notes, and will add your suggested clarifications to the "next time we revise the regulation" file we keep for the 52-16.

As you know, regulation writing is a bit of a committee exercise.  And committees sometimes do not write as clearly as they should.

If the intent was to restrict Commanders from the prerogative to allow civilian clothes for cadets at any activity, then why not just say so?

There are certainly times when civilian clothes are appropriate.  As indicated in the regulation, those times tend to be things like PT activities, laundry time at encampment, etc.  But the reg is fairly clear, that in those circumstances, the commander shall specify a "standardized casual 'uniform'".  I don't think it is a reasonable interpretation that ball gowns are a standardized casual uniform.  Especially if they are different ball gowns worn by a lot of different cadets.

But again, I can only agree that we could and should make that a bit clearer.  And we will in the next revision.

But perhaps more importantly than merely interpreting regulations, it appears as if we agree that cadets belong in uniform at CAP activities, and that it is simply improper to engage in discrimination based solely on gender when it comes to uniforms at CAP activities.

Thank you for your work with our cadets.  You are making a difference.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[almostspaatz]

Likewise, anybody that makes some snarky comment or inappropriate gesture, should that occur, should be smacked upside the head. I'll even turn my back for a few moments while I straighten my tie and let the events play out if the young lady so decides to do so.

:clap: 

That being said, the regs are the regs, and we don't go around them just because "this is stupid." We follow them and standby for amendments to the regs, and until then, we deal with it.

:clap:

CAPM 39-1 1.2.4.2 states Region Commanders, Wing Commanders, and Activity Directors may stipulate appropriate civilian clothes ... at events where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes (which many might say includes a ball). Does this not include cadets? How do we know?

Spirit of the law vs letter of the law? 
It doesn't' seem like regs are very clear on this issue...(but I could be missing something...)

[SarDragon]

Generally the conference ends at the close of business and various sessions. The Banquet is an add on after the close of that business and a separate event.

That depends on how the wing does their conference schedule. Our banquet is Saturday night, and there's still a Sunday morning session to finish the schedule.

[LSThiker]

What I don't understand is why someone would feel that you would have a different behavior by someone in uniform versus out of uniform in the cadet program?

I.A.C.E. (especially when you get some very liberal host families and a few 18 year old college cadets).

In ROTC, the women all wore formal dresses (even though they were allowed to wear Class As, and their dates wore suits. The men wore Class As, and their dates wore dresses. Nobody started slinging mud. Nobody talked about anybody's chest or legs. If anyone did, Master Sergeant would have had a field day with you after in front of the entire battalion.

Not necessarily saying that CAP cadets would necessarily behave this way, but I know it has happened a few times in CAP.

Nevertheless, this is exactly Ned's point.  Why should male cadets be required to wear their uniforms while female cadets are allowed the wear of a ball gown?  Or conversely, why should female cadets not be allowed to wear their dress uniforms and display their achievements as male cadets are allowed? 

Anyway, for starters, ROTCs are vastly different between universities.  For example, at my university, all female Soldiers and contracted cadets wore military uniforms.  In most real Battalion and Brigade balls I have attended, female Soldiers wore their dress uniforms.  For those commanders that allowed female Soldiers to wear dresses, I have seen some colorful (read questionable) dresses where I could not tell if they thought a military ball was like going clubbing.  Then you throw in the dates of some of those young Soldiers, I thought some were going to need a seamstress half way through the event.  Heck, even one of our E-8s brought a vary attractive 20-year "date" (use that term quite loosely) to our Battalion ball. 

In fact, at some CAP Wing and Region Banquets, I have seen some dates of cadets, and female cadets, that had some pretty high slits and low V lines.  Again, I know the vast majority of cadets this is not applicable to, but nevertheless, it does happen, albeit in a small percentage.  And truthfully, I think in this case, it is better safe than sorry.  Granted, it is always better to target the violators, but in some cases, blanket policies are best practice.

As far as comments, yeah, some comments at military balls were beyond inappropriate.  Especially, when you get some of the dates gossiping.  Remember, not all 18-year boys and girls, oops I mean Cadets, behave the same way, especially when they are around other cadets.  I cannot say that all of my conversations with other CAP cadets at that age were "pure" (which of course I do not condone).

[TheSkyHornet]

What I don't understand is why someone would feel that you would have a different behavior by someone in uniform versus out of uniform in the cadet program?

I.A.C.E. (especially when you get some very liberal host families and a few 18 year old college cadets).

In ROTC, the women all wore formal dresses (even though they were allowed to wear Class As, and their dates wore suits. The men wore Class As, and their dates wore dresses. Nobody started slinging mud. Nobody talked about anybody's chest or legs. If anyone did, Master Sergeant would have had a field day with you after in front of the entire battalion.

Not necessarily saying that CAP cadets would necessarily behave this way, but I know it has happened a few times in CAP.

Nevertheless, this is exactly Ned's point.  Why should male cadets be required to wear their uniforms while female cadets are allowed the wear of a ball gown?  Or conversely, why should female cadets not be allowed to wear their dress uniforms and display their achievements as male cadets are allowed? 

Anyway, for starters, ROTCs are vastly different between universities.  For example, at my university, all female Soldiers and contracted cadets wore military uniforms.  In most real Battalion and Brigade balls I have attended, female Soldiers wore their dress uniforms.  For those commanders that allowed female Soldiers to wear dresses, I have seen some colorful (read questionable) dresses where I could not tell if they thought a military ball was like going clubbing.  Then you throw in the dates of some of those young Soldiers, I thought some were going to need a seamstress half way through the event.  Heck, even one of our E-8s brought a vary attractive 20-year "date" (use that term quite loosely) to our Battalion ball. 

In fact, at some CAP Wing and Region Banquets, I have seen some dates of cadets, and female cadets, that had some pretty high slits and low V lines.  Again, I know the vast majority of cadets this is not applicable to, but nevertheless, it does happen, albeit in a small percentage.  And truthfully, I think in this case, it is better safe than sorry.  Granted, it is always better to target the violators, but in some cases, blanket policies are best practice.

As far as comments, yeah, some comments at military balls were beyond inappropriate.  Especially, when you get some of the dates gossiping.  Remember, not all 18-year boys and girls, oops I mean Cadets, behave the same way, especially when they are around other cadets.  I cannot say that all of my conversations with other CAP cadets at that age were "pure" (which of course I do not condone).

Fair and valid points that make for a good argument.

I'm not saying I completely agree or disagree with the intentions behind the regs, but I may have some varying opinions in some areas. Still, the regs are the regs, and if that's the way they were published, we need to stick to them. That's how the game works. We don't start wearing what we feel like just because "it doesn't make sense." To whoever wrote the reg and whoever approved if, it does make sense.

"You've got two choice: Move out or ring out. That's it. End of file."