Female cadets dressing for Group Ball

[xray328]

My daughter is going to be in the color guard for the group ball. I know females typically dress up in gowns etc though. Does she stay in her blues the whole time though since she's on the color guard? Or do females usually change out then back in?

[THRAWN]

Just out of curiosity, does your cadet actually have a commander or chain of command? Lots of your queztions can and should be answered by them if so....

[xray328]

Just thought folks on here might have seen or done more. There's a lot more experience on here than at most squadrons, they're certainly not all equal in that regard.  How many commanders have female cadets that have attended a formal ball as a color guard member? Not many I'm guessing.

I don't get it though. Why the "don't bother us" attitude? If you want to reply, please do.  If you don't then don't.  It's a forum with folks that generally like helping other folks out.  Sure I could of asked her commander, but that's based one persons limited experience. Why not come on here and ask the experts who have seen and done way more than most? Get a few opinions, that's the purpose of a discussion forum.

I mean no disrespect, I guess I'm just not sure why you replied like that.

[Airplane girl]

I don't know how things are in your particular group, so things might be different there. But as a female cadet who has been to a group military ball, not on a color guard, I wore Class As, since I don't really like wearing dresses. Also, I thought it was just easier to wear Class As, because that way I didn't have to worry about whether the dress I was wearing was too formal or not formal enough. Most of the other female cadets who weren't on the color guard were wearing gowns. The ones on the color guard were in Class Bs, so I wasn't the only one in blues. The female cadets on the color guard didn't change into gowns.

[xray328]

Thank you. Remember I was told it was ok for her to wear male blues pants too.

[PHall]

Just thought folks on here might have seen or done more. There's a lot more experience on here than at most squadrons, they're certainly not all equal in that regard.  How many commanders have female cadets that have attended a formal ball as a color guard member? Not many I'm guessing.

I don't get it though. Why the "don't bother us" attitude? If you want to reply, please do.  If you don't then don't.  It's a forum with folks that generally like helping other folks out.  Sure I could of asked her commander, but that's based one persons limited experience. Why not come on here and ask the experts who have seen and done way more than most? Get a few opinions, that's the purpose of a discussion forum.

I mean no disrespect, I guess I'm just not sure why you replied like that.

Because the answers you get here may not agree with what your local unit does.
It's always best to ask your unit first.

[abdsp51]

Plus a lot of your answers can be obtained by the asking the people in the know there and doing your homework rather than taking the easy way out. 

[xray328]

Again, I was led astray by them to begin with.  This isn't really the easy way out either guys, I worry every time I post a question on here.

[arajca]

Something that helps cutoff the flame throwers when asked a question that is normally a chain of command question is to state you've checked with them and a) they didn't know the answer, 2) their answers were confusing, III) their answers were against regs, or d) their answers contradicted each other.

[Capt Thompson]

I've been to formal balls, both in CAP and Army JROTC. In both cases, either Class A or a gown was appropriate for female Cadets. If she wants to get a gown and dress up after posting the colors, I'd say get her the gown if it's in the budget. If not, staying in Class A the entire night is absolutely fine.

[Ned]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but cadets are not authorized to wear civilian clothes when performing CAP duties, including conferences and balls.  And in particular, there are no gender-specific rules that apply only to female cadets.

Start by looking at CAPR 52-16, para 4-2(a), which talks about how cadets should be in uniform *unless* the duty uniform would be inappropriate (like laundry time, PT, etc.) AND the commander specifies a standardized casual attire like polos and khakis, PT uniform, etc. 

Then read that in conjunction with the 39-1 paras 1.2.3.2 and 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 and you'll see there is simply no "party dress exception" for military balls.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

There is an upside.  As the father of a female cadet, I saved a lot of money NOT buying party dresses. 

And in all seriousness, there are good reasons for this.  It helps ensure that all cadets both act - and are treated - professionally.  Our CP is a leadership development organization, and it is an unfortunate facet of human nature that young women who are required / encouraged to wear party dresses at an official CAP activity will be treated differently than their male colleagues who attend in their required CAP uniforms.  And our terrific female airmen, NCOs, and officers deserve equal treatment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Again, sorry to be the wet blanket here.  I hope your daughter has a great time!

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

[LSThiker]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but cadets are not authorized to wear civilian clothes when performing CAP duties, including conferences and balls.  And in particular, there are no gender-specific rules that apply only to female cadets.

Start by looking at CAPR 52-16, para 4-2(a), which talks about how cadets should be in uniform *unless* the duty uniform would be inappropriate (like laundry time, PT, etc.) AND the commander specifies a standardized casual attire like polos and khakis, PT uniform, etc. 

Then read that in conjunction with the 39-1 paras 1.2.3.2 and 1.2.4 & 1.2.5 and you'll see there is simply no "party dress exception" for military balls.  I'm sorry, but it's true.

There is an upside.  As the father of a female cadet, I saved a lot of money NOT buying party dresses. 

And in all seriousness, there are good reasons for this.  It helps ensure that all cadets both act - and are treated - professionally.  Our CP is a leadership development organization, and it is an unfortunate facet of human nature that young women who are required / encouraged to wear party dresses at an official CAP activity will be treated differently than their male colleagues who attend in their required CAP uniforms.  And our terrific female airmen, NCOs, and officers deserve equal treatment.

Wouldn't you agree?

Again, sorry to be the wet blanket here.  I hope your daughter has a great time!

Ned Lee
Colonel, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

Ned, I agree with your logic and reasoning as it is supported by the regulations.  However, I must ask, since you are on National Staff, why did National authorize cadets to wear civilian attire for the 2015 (and previous year) National Conference(s):

Banquet
Mess dress or CAP blazer combination with plain white shirt and black bow tie for senior members, semi-formal uniform for cadets or appropriate civilian attire.  Service Dress is also permitted for those who do not have one of these preferred uniforms.

[Capt Thompson]

Performing CAP duties and attending a CAP social activity are two separate things Colonel. She can't be part of the Color Guard in a gown, she needs to be in uniform, but once her duties are over she would be free to change. Remember she's not on duty during the dance.

[Ned]

Performing CAP duties and attending a CAP social activity are two separate things Colonel. She can't be part of the Color Guard in a gown, she needs to be in uniform, but once her duties are over she would be free to change. Remember she's not on duty during the dance.

I'm afraid I must non-concur.  The question isn't whether she is "on duty" or not, but whether she is at a CAP activity or meeting.  Which she clearly is.

Think of it this way, at a week-long activity like an NCSA or an encampment, there will be periods of time when the the cadets are "off-duty," but that doesn't mean they get to put on heavy metal t-shirts and cut-offs with their hats on backwards while chilling in the barracks.  When wear of the uniform is inappropriate, the commander may specify a "standard" off-duty attire like activity t-shirts and blue shorts or something.

But that is a dramatically different thing than requiring / encouraging gender-based discrimination meant to make only some of our cadets look "pretty".  Really, why would we spend so much time and effort developing leadership skills and then turn around and treat some of our cadets differently based solely on gender?  It's one thing if the guys get to come in suits, but the reality is that this sort of situation requires the males to be dressed professionally with their earned grade and decorations, but the women are relegated to wearing the cutest dress they can find.  I honestly think that no senior member that thinks it through would support this sort of pernicious gender discrimination.


To be fair, the "Cadets in Uniform" language and the supporting clarifications in the new 39-1 are both relatively new, and clearly not everyone has come up to speed.

That's yet another good reason for things like CAP-Talk.

I'm still confident that she is going to have a great time at the activity.  It sounds like fun.

[abdsp51]

Performing CAP duties and attending a CAP social activity are two separate things Colonel. She can't be part of the Color Guard in a gown, she needs to be in uniform, but once her duties are over she would be free to change. Remember she's not on duty during the dance.

I'm afraid I must non-concur.  The question isn't whether she is "on duty" or not, but whether she is at a CAP activity or meeting.  Which she clearly is.

Think of it this way, at a week-long activity like an NCSA or an encampment, there will be periods of time when the the cadets are "off-duty," but that doesn't mean they get to put on heavy metal t-shirts and cut-offs with their hats on backwards while chilling in the barracks.  When wear of the uniform is inappropriate, the commander may specify a "standard" off-duty attire like activity t-shirts and blue shorts or something.

But that is a dramatically different thing than requiring / encouraging gender-based discrimination meant to make only some of our cadets look "pretty".  Really, why would we spend so much time and effort developing leadership skills and then turn around and treat some of our cadets differently based solely on gender?  It's one thing if the guys get to come in suits, but the reality is that this sort of situation requires the males to be dressed professionally with their earned grade and decorations, but the women are relegated to wearing the cutest dress they can find.  I honestly think that no senior member that thinks it through would support this sort of pernicious gender discrimination.


To be fair, the "Cadets in Uniform" language and the supporting clarifications in the new 39-1 are both relatively new, and clearly not everyone has come up to speed.

That's yet another good reason for things like CAP-Talk.

I'm still confident that she is going to have a great time at the activity.  It sounds like fun.

So question for you then sir.  What action will be taken next year at CA Wg's Annual CPC that has a ball/dance (fill in the blank) when female cadets wear a gown or a dress? 

[Ned]

What action will be taken next year at CA Wg's Annual CPC that has a ball/dance (fill in the blank) when female cadets wear a gown or a dress?

I doubt it will be an issue.  The good folks at CAWG -- just like most wings -- follow the regulations. 

And although I haven't checked with the new DCP, Lt Col Ishikata, I'm confident that he will track the new language in the regulation and issue the appropriate guidance.  That's just what good leaders do.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I hate to be another wet blanket, but the first time I read this post, I thought Why is Xray posting for his daughter?

It seems he is dictating her what she should be wearing. Should not this be a female cadet's concern, as long as she does not seem to violate CAP regs?

[PHall]

I hate to be another wet blanket, but the first time I read this post, I thought Why is Xray posting for his daughter?

It seems he is dictating her what she should be wearing. Should not this be a female cadet's concern, as long as she does not seem to violate CAP regs?

Well, he is her father and last time I looked Dad's usually have a lot to say when it comes to what their daughter wears in public.

[MSG Mac]

Generally the conference ends at the close of business and various sessions. The Banquet is an add on after the close of that business and a separate event.

[xray328]

I hate to be another wet blanket, but the first time I read this post, I thought Why is Xray posting for his daughter?

It seems he is dictating her what she should be wearing. Should not this be a female cadet's concern, as long as she does not seem to violate CAP regs?

Well, he is her father and last time I looked Dad's usually have a lot to say when it comes to what their daughter wears in public.

Well yeah there's that (she's 12) and I'm in charge of the Color Guard detail.