NCO Stripes

[NCRblues]

I am sorry but, what?

So, let me get this accurate as I can in my mind.

We are attempting to expand our "badly needed/backbone of CAP/can not live without" NCO corps... and the AF is SO onboard with this grand idea, they went ahead and said "NO" to not only barring the use of the diamond (which is not TM'ed by the AF btw) but not even allowing the term "first sergeant" to be used?!

Sounds like everyone is onboard!! 

[arajca]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

Regular, air popped, carmel or kettle?

Yes.

[MHC5096]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.

Actually the Air Force does have First Sergeants at both the Group and Squadron levels.

Cite please on the First Sergeant assigned to a Group in the Air Force.  Did 31-1/2 years, never saw one.

AFI 36-2113.
10.2.    Organization  of  Assignment.    Every  Airman  should  have  an  assigned  first  sergeant  they can rely  on with clearly  defined areas of responsibility.

10.2.1.    Squadron  First  Sergeant.    First  sergeants  are  ordinarily  assigned  at  the  squadron level.    Based  on  manning,  mission  or  unique  circumstances,  first  sergeants  may  be  assigned at other levels based on  mission requirements.

10.2.2.    Group  First  Sergeant.  When  assigned  to  a  Group,  the  first  sergeant  must  work diligently  to  serve  all  commanders  and  Airmen  across  the  entire  Group,  and  only  experienced first  sergeants  should  be  considered  for  these  roles.    The  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the Group  commander,  but  must  build  a  relationship  of  trust  with  each  of  the  squadron commander’s  the  first  sergeant  advises.    Furthermore,  it  is  imperative  the  first  sergeant  works to engage  Airmen  across the diverse  spectrum they  serve.

10.2.3.    Multiple  first  sergeants  in  a  unit.    Units  with  large  numbers  of  assigned  personnel may  be  granted  more  than  one  first  sergeant  authorization  IAW  the  AFMS.    In  these instances,  the  commander  must  define  each  first  sergeant’s  area  of  responsibility  within  the unit.    Specifically,  each  first  sergeant  should  have  a  clear  definition  of  the  personnel  or flights/sections/areas  they  serve,  and  each  first  sergeant  will  have  the  same  roles  and responsibilities  with  respect  to  these  defined  audiences.    Each  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by the squadron commander.  (T-3).

10.2.4.    First  sergeants  for  multiple  squadrons.    Instances  where  a  squadron  does  not  have  a first  sergeant  assigned,  or  does  not  have  a  first  sergeant  authorization,  the  CCM  may  assign first  sergeant  duties  to  another  squadron  level  first  sergeant  after  coordination  with  both squadron  commanders.    When  this  occurs,  the  first  sergeant,  who  is  still  assigned  to  another squadron,  must  engage  the  other  squadron  much  like  a  Group  or  Wing  level  first  sergeant would.    However,  the  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the  assigned  squadron  commander,  and will  not assume a  different duty  title.

16 of my 22 years were in the Air Force. The only units that didn't have First Sergeants were Flights. The Group First Sergeant took care of them.

[THRAWN]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.

Actually the Air Force does have First Sergeants at both the Group and Squadron levels.

Cite please on the First Sergeant assigned to a Group in the Air Force.  Did 31-1/2 years, never saw one.

AFI 36-2113.
10.2.    Organization  of  Assignment.    Every  Airman  should  have  an  assigned  first  sergeant  they can rely  on with clearly  defined areas of responsibility.

10.2.1.    Squadron  First  Sergeant.    First  sergeants  are  ordinarily  assigned  at  the  squadron level.    Based  on  manning,  mission  or  unique  circumstances,  first  sergeants  may  be  assigned at other levels based on  mission requirements.

10.2.2.    Group  First  Sergeant.  When  assigned  to  a  Group,  the  first  sergeant  must  work diligently  to  serve  all  commanders  and  Airmen  across  the  entire  Group,  and  only  experienced first  sergeants  should  be  considered  for  these  roles.    The  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the Group  commander,  but  must  build  a  relationship  of  trust  with  each  of  the  squadron commander's  the  first  sergeant  advises.    Furthermore,  it  is  imperative  the  first  sergeant  works to engage  Airmen  across the diverse  spectrum they  serve.

10.2.3.    Multiple  first  sergeants  in  a  unit.    Units  with  large  numbers  of  assigned  personnel may  be  granted  more  than  one  first  sergeant  authorization  IAW  the  AFMS.    In  these instances,  the  commander  must  define  each  first  sergeant's  area  of  responsibility  within  the unit.    Specifically,  each  first  sergeant  should  have  a  clear  definition  of  the  personnel  or flights/sections/areas  they  serve,  and  each  first  sergeant  will  have  the  same  roles  and responsibilities  with  respect  to  these  defined  audiences.    Each  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by the squadron commander.  (T-3).

10.2.4.    First  sergeants  for  multiple  squadrons.    Instances  where  a  squadron  does  not  have  a first  sergeant  assigned,  or  does  not  have  a  first  sergeant  authorization,  the  CCM  may  assign first  sergeant  duties  to  another  squadron  level  first  sergeant  after  coordination  with  both squadron  commanders.    When  this  occurs,  the  first  sergeant,  who  is  still  assigned  to  another squadron,  must  engage  the  other  squadron  much  like  a  Group  or  Wing  level  first  sergeant would.    However,  the  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the  assigned  squadron  commander,  and will  not assume a  different duty  title.

16 of my 22 years were in the Air Force. The only units that didn't have First Sergeants were Flights. The Group First Sergeant took care of them.

You WILL NOT confuse the discussion with facts.

[THRAWN]

I am sorry but, what?

So, let me get this accurate as I can in my mind.

We are attempting to expand our "badly needed/backbone of CAP/can not live without" NCO corps... and the AF is SO onboard with this grand idea, they went ahead and said "NO" to not only barring the use of the diamond (which is not TM'ed by the AF btw) but not even allowing the term "first sergeant" to be used?!

Sounds like everyone is onboard!!

Aye. Good summary. Even as an NCO I am amazed by the circular logic....

[lordmonar]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

[THRAWN]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

Ha! I see what you did there. I all honesty, I had never heard of a first shirt at the group level until I read the AFI....

[Shuman 14]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

Regular, air popped, carmel or kettle?

Yes.

[kwe1009]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

My very first duty assignment in 1987 was the 2046 Communications Group and we had a First Sergeant.  He was a Chief also.

[kwe1009]

What exactly would the duties of this squadron First Sergeant be?  The cadet First Sergeant's duties do not compare with an Air Force First Sergeant already and I don't see a Senor Member First Sergeant having similar duties as an Air Force First Sergeant either.  Unless CAP makes the entry point for most new members into the "enlisted" side, I don't see too many squadrons having more than 1 NCO so to have a First Sergeant who is also the only enlisted doesn't make much sense.

[abdsp51]

In my 16 years on AD I have never seen a group 1st Sgt.  I had an under/asst 1st Sgt at my last assignmen,  but never seen or heard of a group 1st Sgt. 

[lordmonar]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

My very first duty assignment in 1987 was the 2046 Communications Group and we had a First Sergeant.  He was a Chief also.

Yes.....I will admit it.....I was/am wrong.  Back in the day when we still had AFCC.....they did have stand alone comm groups (basically very large comm squadrons with maybe one or two smaller comm squadrons under them) that had a first sergeant assigned (technically assigned to the head quarters squadron of the comm group).   

I belonged to the 1956th Comm Group at Yokota.  We had a group commander and a Senior  NCO and then there was the Headquarters sections with a capt  as "squadron commander" and a First Sergeant.

But....when AFCC went away...and we converted to a squadron under the support group.....there was not a support group first sergeant.....just a senior enlisted advisory.

[MHC5096]

I was with both the 158th Fighter Wing and the 916th Air Refueling Wing. Between the two there were enough diamonds at the Group and Squadron levels roaming around to open a De Beers store.

[PHall]

I'm willing to bet that First Sergeants at the Group level are pretty much a ANG thing. The ANG has Groups in place of Wings and Flights in place of Squadrons in many places.
I was AD Air Force and Air Force Reserve and never saw a First Sergeant assigned to a Group. But the only Groups we had were part of a Wing.

[MHC5096]

The 916th ARW is an Air Force Reserve unit. The 4th FW which is co-located with the 916th ARW at SJAFB is an active duty unit both had First Sergeants assigned to each Group and Squadron. I retired in 2011, but I just spoke with one of the Squadron First Sergeants at the 916th. Nothing has changed.

[ZigZag911]

We could follow the British army on this; they have "Company Sergeant Majors"... CAP could have Squadron/Group Sergeant Major positions...might aggravate US Army & USMC, but shouldn't bother USAF, they don't use the title!

Keep it simple: squadron/group/wing/region Senior Enlisted Advisor.

Probably acceptable to USAF, but also a bit dull!

[ZigZag911]

Unless CAP makes the entry point for most new members into the "enlisted" side, I don't see too many squadrons having more than 1 NCO so to have a First Sergeant who is also the only enlisted doesn't make much sense.

I think you've hit on something here...all new senior members join as "Airman", and squadron 1st Sergeant has responsibility for getting them oriented and through initial training.

[Storm Chaser]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

That's because only very large groups or groups with lots of small units with no First Sergeants have them. Most groups don't have a large enough staff or enlisted force to require a First Sergeant.

[Storm Chaser]

Positions are usually created to fill a need. My biggest issue with the NCO positions being created is that, other than meeting the new requirement for promotion, there's no real need identified. Basically, a position is being created first, then the duties and responsibilities defined later. The reason why the NCO Committee or CAP or CAP-USAF can't agree on a duty title seems to be because the title is not necessarily representative of a specific function being created. What are these Senior NCOs supposed to be doing? If they're only advisors, then I can see why they may not want to use the title 1st Sergeant or Superintendent.

As much as I want to support this NCO program, I can't help to feel that the implementation has been done backwards. First, allow the promotions, which require positions that don't exist yet, then create the positions. Once the positions are created, then figure out what they're going to be doing. NCO-specific PD? It'll be figured out later.

NCOs supervise Airmen. Since we don't have Airmen in CAP, then the closest thing would be cadets. Yet, no attempt has been made, that I'm aware of, of making the NCO positions Cadet Programs positions. As a commander, I don't need an NCO Advisor if I don't have NCO matters requiring advice. Why not ask the commanders in the field what they would like these NCOs to be doing? After all, the SNCO in a unit would be working for the commander.

[lordmonar]

Yes....to an extend there is some horse before the cart going on here.

But anytime you are building something from more or less scratch....there is going to be a little of that.

NCO supervise Airman.....one day....we may have airman.   So we are building the NCOs to lead them.

Step by step.....piece by piece.  Sometimes out of sequence....but there is a reason behind it.