NCO Stripes

[winterg]

Completely unrelated to anything important.  I was purchasing a few needed items on Vanguard (does anyone else not like the new format there?) and I happened across the new Senior Member NCO stripes for sale.  One of the things that has bugged me since the designs were released was the spindly looking props in the center and the "CAP" in the field above.  Wouldn't a bold CAP image have served us much better?  Not to mention keeping the basic outlines the same as Ma Blue.  Take this comment for the late night rant that it is.

[Майор Хаткевич]

BTDT, has the same ms paint designs.

[Storm Chaser]

I understand CAP was added to the chevrons in order to get rid of the CAP cutouts previously worn on the uniform by CAP NCOs. That said, I agree that the full color CAP triangle looks better and would've been more distinctive than the white propellers.

[ColonelJack]

I understand CAP was added to the chevrons in order to get rid of the CAP cutouts previously worn on the uniform by CAP NCOs. That said, I agree that the full color CAP triangle looks better and would've been more distinctive than the white propellers.

Does this mean that SMs who are NCOs wear the AF's U.S. in a circle on the service coat lapels now?

Jack

[SarDragon]

Yer killin' me, Jack. 

[Panache]

"Distinctive at a distance and/or in low light."

[Storm Chaser]

I understand CAP was added to the chevrons in order to get rid of the CAP cutouts previously worn on the uniform by CAP NCOs. That said, I agree that the full color CAP triangle looks better and would've been more distinctive than the white propellers.

Does this mean that SMs who are NCOs wear the AF's U.S. in a circle on the service coat lapels now?

Jack

Yes, but even better, they no longer have to wear CAP cutouts with the service uniform or BDU.

[supertigerCH]

sounds like a pretty good trade off. 


have to take my hat off (to CAP) on this one.

[ZigZag911]

Also, the design matches up with "CAP" on our officers' shoulder marks...they did good on this one.

[Shuman 14]

So instead of wearing a Circle C.A.P. lapel device, you now wear a Circle U.S. lapel device and have odd looking stripes with embroidered CAP on them.

How is that "good"? 

Would have been better to keep the Circle C.A.P. and use the red prop in white circle stripes... distinctive, low-light visible and professional looking.

[Storm Chaser]

So instead of wearing a Circle C.A.P. lapel device, you now wear a Circle U.S. lapel device and have odd looking stripes with embroidered CAP on them.

How is that "good"? 

Would have been better to keep the Circle C.A.P. and use the red prop in white circle stripes... distinctive, low-light visible and professional looking.

My dear Patron friend, CAP NCOs had to wear CAP cutouts not only on the service dress uniform, but on the service uniform and BDU shirts, something their Air Force counterpart don't have to do. The new insignias are more inline with CAP officers by adding the embroidered CAP to it (at least when worn on the service uniforms) and with Air Force NCOs by removing the insignia from their shirt collars.

And by the way, how these insignias look is a matter of opinion. Some don't like them, others do.

[Shuman 14]

Well if you're talking subdued on BDUs, then that makes much more sense, and I see the cost savings for sewing.

I also didn't know about the pins on the light blue shirt collars either.

Still, in full color, on the shirts, if the red prop/white circle chevrons had been adopted, that surely would have been enough to comply with the distinctive and low-light visible directive.

[Storm Chaser]

Well if you're talking subdued on BDUs, then that makes much more sense, and I see the cost savings for sewing.

I also didn't know about the pins on the light blue shirt collars either.

Still, in full color, on the shirts, if the red prop/white circle chevrons had been adopted, that surely would have been enough to comply with the distinctive and low-light visible directive.

Sure, but that design didn't get adopted. And as I said before, some people don't like the current design, but others do. It's really a matter of opinion.

[RogueLeader]

Well if you're talking subdued on BDUs, then that makes much more sense, and I see the cost savings for sewing.

I also didn't know about the pins on the light blue shirt collars either.

Still, in full color, on the shirts, if the red prop/white circle chevrons had been adopted, that surely would have been enough to comply with the distinctive and low-light visible directive.

Sure, but that design didn't get adopted. And as I said before, some people don't like the current design, but others do. It's really a matter of opinion.

When I first saw the pictures of the new stripes, I did bot like them at all.  Now, after seeing them on an actual uniform (I have two NCO's in my unit, 1 SSgt and 1 CMSgt) they look strangely decent.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Can someone post a picture of a SM NCO stripes on a BDU?  I have been searching everywhere for a picture with no luck!

[kwe1009]

There aren't that many CAP NCOs so finding pictures might not be very easy.  I haven't seen one but if you are looking for a reference for where they are supposed to go, just look at the any picture of an Air Force enlisted person in ABUs.  They go in the same spot.  CAPM 39-1 paragraph 5.1.1.2.2 spells out the placement.  Hope that helps.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Thanks for the response.  I know the placement of them.  I just wanted to see how they looked on BDUs.  I feel like the Blue on BDU for stripes might look a little tacky but I haven't seen it for myself to make a real judgment

[LSThiker]

Thanks for the response.  I know the placement of them.  I just wanted to see how they looked on BDUs.  I feel like the Blue on BDU for stripes might look a little tacky but I haven't seen it for myself to make a real judgment

Unfortunately, the only NCO that I have seen wear the white/blue stripes on the woodland BDUs was SSgt Kern Kemp at National Blue Beret.  He was from Iowa or Nebraska Wing.  He is now a captain and of course that was before the new insignia, but it would give you an idea.  You can search their websites and see if they have any pictures of him.

[lordmonar]

I checked last night and I don't have any photo of me in my BDUs.  I will get one posted tonight.

[USAFRiggerGuy]

Thanks!!

[Slim]

Here you go. 

[lordmonar]

That one is kind of old....(CAP Cutouts, Flag, Wing Patch)

[Mitchell 1969]

That one is kind of old....(CAP Cutouts, Flag, Wing Patch)

They look a LOT better than I thought they would.

[THRAWN]

That one is kind of old....(CAP Cutouts, Flag, Wing Patch)

They look good. I'm sure they look really good on the BBDU.

That CAP in the middle though....I looked at it without glasses, and it sure looks like a first sergeant diamond....That splash of color with a red triprop would be a lot more distinctive.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Thrawn-

Shhhh!

NHQ may take notice!!!

[USAFRiggerGuy]

That one is kind of old....(CAP Cutouts, Flag, Wing Patch)

Looks good, thank you for taking the time to post!

[Storm Chaser]

The chevron insignias definitely look a lot better than many anticipated. If we could only change all our insignias to a dark blue background. I think most of us would gladly go through the expense of replacing our tapes and badges for something that would look much better on both BDUs and BBDUs.

[winterg]

The chevron insignias definitely look a lot better than many anticipated. If we could only change all our insignias to a dark blue background. I think most of us would gladly go through the expense of replacing our tapes and badges for something that would look much better on both BDUs and BBDUs.

In a heartbeat.

[Storm Chaser]

That CAP in the middle though....I looked at it without glasses, and it sure looks like a first sergeant diamond...

Speaking of, why not authorize the position of First Sergeant for the group and squadron levels? MSgt Harris stated that there was disagreement on what to call the primary NCO position at the unit level. I think that would solve the problem.

[lordmonar]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.
Issue 2.  The USAF had issues with CAP using the diamond and stars.....and by extension the title "First Sergeant".

As of the last meeting IIRC we are calling the squadron level position "Squadron NCO".
The group level position is the one one where there is still discussion......we wanted "Group Superintendent" there is push back from on high on that (I don't know if it was CAP-USAF or CAP that was pushing back).
Wing and Region....are the Wing and Region Command Chief
I don't remember what we decided to call the CAP NHQ level....I think it was National Command Chief....but I could be wrong.

[Storm Chaser]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.
Issue 2.  The USAF had issues with CAP using the diamond and stars.....and by extension the title "First Sergeant".

As of the last meeting IIRC we are calling the squadron level position "Squadron NCO".
The group level position is the one one where there is still discussion......we wanted "Group Superintendent" there is push back from on high on that (I don't know if it was CAP-USAF or CAP that was pushing back).
Wing and Region....are the Wing and Region Command Chief
I don't remember what we decided to call the CAP NHQ level....I think it was National Command Chief....but I could be wrong.

Squadron NCO is way too generic to be a position. We could have First Sergeants at the squadron level and Superintendents at the group level. We don't need the diamond to have the 1st Sgt position, just like we don't need the star to have the Command Chief position. Why would the Air Force be fine with Command Chief, but not with First Sergeant?

The fact that CAP (or CAP-USAF) can't agree over titles used in the Air Force is ridiculous. We have no problems calling CAP officers "Commander", so why would we have a problem calling CAP SNCOs "First Sergeant" or "Superintendent"?

[THRAWN]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.
Issue 2.  The USAF had issues with CAP using the diamond and stars.....and by extension the title "First Sergeant".

As of the last meeting IIRC we are calling the squadron level position "Squadron NCO".
The group level position is the one one where there is still discussion......we wanted "Group Superintendent" there is push back from on high on that (I don't know if it was CAP-USAF or CAP that was pushing back).
Wing and Region....are the Wing and Region Command Chief
I don't remember what we decided to call the CAP NHQ level....I think it was National Command Chief....but I could be wrong.

So to be clear: CAP is performing this NCO experiment to be more like USAF......USAF does not want CAP to be like it. Making up official soundng titles is great. Putting people in those positions is great. Having some codified idea of just what those people are doing there would be even better. I realize its being worked on, but it truly is a perfect example of the proverbial cart before the proverbial donkey....

Probably a big part of the problem would be obtaining the training associated with the title. You dont just become a first sergeant overnight...

[ZigZag911]

We could follow the British army on this; they have "Company Sergeant Majors"... CAP could have Squadron/Group Sergeant Major positions...might aggravate US Army & USMC, but shouldn't bother USAF, they don't use the title!

[Mitchell 1969]

We could follow the British army on this; they have "Company Sergeant Majors"... CAP could have Squadron/Group Sergeant Major positions...might aggravate US Army & USMC, but shouldn't bother USAF, they don't use the title!

Noooooo.....come on now, you KNOW what would happen....


"You can't use those titles. They aren't Air Force enough for you. But you can't use our titles- they are too Air Force for us  to let you use them."

Stand by for "Squadron Stripe Wearer," "Group Chevron Bearer" and "Wing Chevron Striper."

[FW]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

[MHC5096]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.

Actually the Air Force does have First Sergeants at both the Group and Squadron levels.

[PHall]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.

Actually the Air Force does have First Sergeants at both the Group and Squadron levels.

Cite please on the First Sergeant assigned to a Group in the Air Force.  Did 31-1/2 years, never saw one.

[arajca]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

[PHall]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

Regular, air popped, carmel or kettle?

[THRAWN]

We could follow the British army on this; they have "Company Sergeant Majors"... CAP could have Squadron/Group Sergeant Major positions...might aggravate US Army & USMC, but shouldn't bother USAF, they don't use the title!

Keep it simple: squadron/group/wing/region Senior Enlisted Advisor.

[NCRblues]

I am sorry but, what?

So, let me get this accurate as I can in my mind.

We are attempting to expand our "badly needed/backbone of CAP/can not live without" NCO corps... and the AF is SO onboard with this grand idea, they went ahead and said "NO" to not only barring the use of the diamond (which is not TM'ed by the AF btw) but not even allowing the term "first sergeant" to be used?!

Sounds like everyone is onboard!! 

[arajca]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

Regular, air popped, carmel or kettle?

Yes.

[MHC5096]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.

Actually the Air Force does have First Sergeants at both the Group and Squadron levels.

Cite please on the First Sergeant assigned to a Group in the Air Force.  Did 31-1/2 years, never saw one.

AFI 36-2113.
10.2.    Organization  of  Assignment.    Every  Airman  should  have  an  assigned  first  sergeant  they can rely  on with clearly  defined areas of responsibility.

10.2.1.    Squadron  First  Sergeant.    First  sergeants  are  ordinarily  assigned  at  the  squadron level.    Based  on  manning,  mission  or  unique  circumstances,  first  sergeants  may  be  assigned at other levels based on  mission requirements.

10.2.2.    Group  First  Sergeant.  When  assigned  to  a  Group,  the  first  sergeant  must  work diligently  to  serve  all  commanders  and  Airmen  across  the  entire  Group,  and  only  experienced first  sergeants  should  be  considered  for  these  roles.    The  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the Group  commander,  but  must  build  a  relationship  of  trust  with  each  of  the  squadron commander’s  the  first  sergeant  advises.    Furthermore,  it  is  imperative  the  first  sergeant  works to engage  Airmen  across the diverse  spectrum they  serve.

10.2.3.    Multiple  first  sergeants  in  a  unit.    Units  with  large  numbers  of  assigned  personnel may  be  granted  more  than  one  first  sergeant  authorization  IAW  the  AFMS.    In  these instances,  the  commander  must  define  each  first  sergeant’s  area  of  responsibility  within  the unit.    Specifically,  each  first  sergeant  should  have  a  clear  definition  of  the  personnel  or flights/sections/areas  they  serve,  and  each  first  sergeant  will  have  the  same  roles  and responsibilities  with  respect  to  these  defined  audiences.    Each  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by the squadron commander.  (T-3).

10.2.4.    First  sergeants  for  multiple  squadrons.    Instances  where  a  squadron  does  not  have  a first  sergeant  assigned,  or  does  not  have  a  first  sergeant  authorization,  the  CCM  may  assign first  sergeant  duties  to  another  squadron  level  first  sergeant  after  coordination  with  both squadron  commanders.    When  this  occurs,  the  first  sergeant,  who  is  still  assigned  to  another squadron,  must  engage  the  other  squadron  much  like  a  Group  or  Wing  level  first  sergeant would.    However,  the  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the  assigned  squadron  commander,  and will  not assume a  different duty  title.

16 of my 22 years were in the Air Force. The only units that didn't have First Sergeants were Flights. The Group First Sergeant took care of them.

[THRAWN]

Issue 1.  USAF does not have First Sergeants at the Group levels.

Actually the Air Force does have First Sergeants at both the Group and Squadron levels.

Cite please on the First Sergeant assigned to a Group in the Air Force.  Did 31-1/2 years, never saw one.

AFI 36-2113.
10.2.    Organization  of  Assignment.    Every  Airman  should  have  an  assigned  first  sergeant  they can rely  on with clearly  defined areas of responsibility.

10.2.1.    Squadron  First  Sergeant.    First  sergeants  are  ordinarily  assigned  at  the  squadron level.    Based  on  manning,  mission  or  unique  circumstances,  first  sergeants  may  be  assigned at other levels based on  mission requirements.

10.2.2.    Group  First  Sergeant.  When  assigned  to  a  Group,  the  first  sergeant  must  work diligently  to  serve  all  commanders  and  Airmen  across  the  entire  Group,  and  only  experienced first  sergeants  should  be  considered  for  these  roles.    The  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the Group  commander,  but  must  build  a  relationship  of  trust  with  each  of  the  squadron commander's  the  first  sergeant  advises.    Furthermore,  it  is  imperative  the  first  sergeant  works to engage  Airmen  across the diverse  spectrum they  serve.

10.2.3.    Multiple  first  sergeants  in  a  unit.    Units  with  large  numbers  of  assigned  personnel may  be  granted  more  than  one  first  sergeant  authorization  IAW  the  AFMS.    In  these instances,  the  commander  must  define  each  first  sergeant's  area  of  responsibility  within  the unit.    Specifically,  each  first  sergeant  should  have  a  clear  definition  of  the  personnel  or flights/sections/areas  they  serve,  and  each  first  sergeant  will  have  the  same  roles  and responsibilities  with  respect  to  these  defined  audiences.    Each  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by the squadron commander.  (T-3).

10.2.4.    First  sergeants  for  multiple  squadrons.    Instances  where  a  squadron  does  not  have  a first  sergeant  assigned,  or  does  not  have  a  first  sergeant  authorization,  the  CCM  may  assign first  sergeant  duties  to  another  squadron  level  first  sergeant  after  coordination  with  both squadron  commanders.    When  this  occurs,  the  first  sergeant,  who  is  still  assigned  to  another squadron,  must  engage  the  other  squadron  much  like  a  Group  or  Wing  level  first  sergeant would.    However,  the  first  sergeant  will  be  rated  by  the  assigned  squadron  commander,  and will  not assume a  different duty  title.

16 of my 22 years were in the Air Force. The only units that didn't have First Sergeants were Flights. The Group First Sergeant took care of them.

You WILL NOT confuse the discussion with facts.

[THRAWN]

I am sorry but, what?

So, let me get this accurate as I can in my mind.

We are attempting to expand our "badly needed/backbone of CAP/can not live without" NCO corps... and the AF is SO onboard with this grand idea, they went ahead and said "NO" to not only barring the use of the diamond (which is not TM'ed by the AF btw) but not even allowing the term "first sergeant" to be used?!

Sounds like everyone is onboard!!

Aye. Good summary. Even as an NCO I am amazed by the circular logic....

[lordmonar]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

[THRAWN]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

Ha! I see what you did there. I all honesty, I had never heard of a first shirt at the group level until I read the AFI....

[Shuman 14]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

Regular, air popped, carmel or kettle?

Yes.

[kwe1009]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

My very first duty assignment in 1987 was the 2046 Communications Group and we had a First Sergeant.  He was a Chief also.

[kwe1009]

What exactly would the duties of this squadron First Sergeant be?  The cadet First Sergeant's duties do not compare with an Air Force First Sergeant already and I don't see a Senor Member First Sergeant having similar duties as an Air Force First Sergeant either.  Unless CAP makes the entry point for most new members into the "enlisted" side, I don't see too many squadrons having more than 1 NCO so to have a First Sergeant who is also the only enlisted doesn't make much sense.

[abdsp51]

In my 16 years on AD I have never seen a group 1st Sgt.  I had an under/asst 1st Sgt at my last assignmen,  but never seen or heard of a group 1st Sgt. 

[lordmonar]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

My very first duty assignment in 1987 was the 2046 Communications Group and we had a First Sergeant.  He was a Chief also.

Yes.....I will admit it.....I was/am wrong.  Back in the day when we still had AFCC.....they did have stand alone comm groups (basically very large comm squadrons with maybe one or two smaller comm squadrons under them) that had a first sergeant assigned (technically assigned to the head quarters squadron of the comm group).   

I belonged to the 1956th Comm Group at Yokota.  We had a group commander and a Senior  NCO and then there was the Headquarters sections with a capt  as "squadron commander" and a First Sergeant.

But....when AFCC went away...and we converted to a squadron under the support group.....there was not a support group first sergeant.....just a senior enlisted advisory.

[MHC5096]

I was with both the 158th Fighter Wing and the 916th Air Refueling Wing. Between the two there were enough diamonds at the Group and Squadron levels roaming around to open a De Beers store.

[PHall]

I'm willing to bet that First Sergeants at the Group level are pretty much a ANG thing. The ANG has Groups in place of Wings and Flights in place of Squadrons in many places.
I was AD Air Force and Air Force Reserve and never saw a First Sergeant assigned to a Group. But the only Groups we had were part of a Wing.

[MHC5096]

The 916th ARW is an Air Force Reserve unit. The 4th FW which is co-located with the 916th ARW at SJAFB is an active duty unit both had First Sergeants assigned to each Group and Squadron. I retired in 2011, but I just spoke with one of the Squadron First Sergeants at the 916th. Nothing has changed.

[ZigZag911]

We could follow the British army on this; they have "Company Sergeant Majors"... CAP could have Squadron/Group Sergeant Major positions...might aggravate US Army & USMC, but shouldn't bother USAF, they don't use the title!

Keep it simple: squadron/group/wing/region Senior Enlisted Advisor.

Probably acceptable to USAF, but also a bit dull!

[ZigZag911]

Unless CAP makes the entry point for most new members into the "enlisted" side, I don't see too many squadrons having more than 1 NCO so to have a First Sergeant who is also the only enlisted doesn't make much sense.

I think you've hit on something here...all new senior members join as "Airman", and squadron 1st Sergeant has responsibility for getting them oriented and through initial training.

[Storm Chaser]

THRAWN that's an AFI not a fact.   
I too spent 22 years on AD and don't once recall a first shirt at the group level.   
I'll check with my Friend who is currently a shirt if there are shirts at the group level.

That's because only very large groups or groups with lots of small units with no First Sergeants have them. Most groups don't have a large enough staff or enlisted force to require a First Sergeant.

[Storm Chaser]

Positions are usually created to fill a need. My biggest issue with the NCO positions being created is that, other than meeting the new requirement for promotion, there's no real need identified. Basically, a position is being created first, then the duties and responsibilities defined later. The reason why the NCO Committee or CAP or CAP-USAF can't agree on a duty title seems to be because the title is not necessarily representative of a specific function being created. What are these Senior NCOs supposed to be doing? If they're only advisors, then I can see why they may not want to use the title 1st Sergeant or Superintendent.

As much as I want to support this NCO program, I can't help to feel that the implementation has been done backwards. First, allow the promotions, which require positions that don't exist yet, then create the positions. Once the positions are created, then figure out what they're going to be doing. NCO-specific PD? It'll be figured out later.

NCOs supervise Airmen. Since we don't have Airmen in CAP, then the closest thing would be cadets. Yet, no attempt has been made, that I'm aware of, of making the NCO positions Cadet Programs positions. As a commander, I don't need an NCO Advisor if I don't have NCO matters requiring advice. Why not ask the commanders in the field what they would like these NCOs to be doing? After all, the SNCO in a unit would be working for the commander.

[lordmonar]

Yes....to an extend there is some horse before the cart going on here.

But anytime you are building something from more or less scratch....there is going to be a little of that.

NCO supervise Airman.....one day....we may have airman.   So we are building the NCOs to lead them.

Step by step.....piece by piece.  Sometimes out of sequence....but there is a reason behind it.

[kwe1009]

Not to sound like a broken record but can some explain to me what the exact purpose of having a CAP NCO corp is?  I didn't understand the purpose of the previous system (except there were a very small number of military NCOs that wanted to continue wearing their rank) and I don't understand the purpose of this new system.  Until a definite purpose is defined I do not see too many people wanting to be a CAP NCO.  As for these "adviser to the commander" type roles, what exactly is a CAP NCO going to advise the commander on that a CAP officer doesn't do today?

I understand that this is a new system and there are bugs to be worked out but usually when you build something you have a goal you are trying to reach.  You don't just build a building and then try to come up with a use for it.  You define the need for the building, create plans for a building to meet the stated need, and then build the building.

It seems for the CAP NCO Corps, the building is built and now we are trying to figure out if there is even a need for the building.

[lordmonar]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19795.0

Bottom line.

Several goals with the current system.

1.  To make the old system better by allowing promotion.
2.  To be able to better capture the leadership of former military NCOs.
3.  To position CAP to make changes to the officer corps.

That's it in a nut shell.

[Storm Chaser]

Are these new NCO positions going to be mandatory? If not, then what happens when a commander decides not to fill the position, thus impeding the next NCO promotion. If so, then what happens when a commander can't fill the position due to lack of qualified or suitable NCOs?

Are these positions going to have term limits? If not, then what prevents someone from being assigned to that position indefinitely, thus blocking the promotion of other NCOs? Why only one SNCO position per echelon? We can promote multiple Lt Cols in the squadron, but not multiple MSgts? I think this whole promotion system needs to be rethought.

[kwe1009]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19795.0

Bottom line.

Several goals with the current system.

1.  To make the old system better by allowing promotion.
2.  To be able to better capture the leadership of former military NCOs.
3.  To position CAP to make changes to the officer corps.

That's it in a nut shell.

Thanks for boiling it down.  I don't see where #1 is anything that betters CAP.  Concerning #2, I'm a current military NCO and I don't see how me being a CAP NCO would "better capture the leadership of former military NCOs."  If the thought is that more former NCOs would join CAP if they had the ability to get promoted within CAP I really don't see that happening.  I personally have not seen a CAP NCO in the wild in my 3 years in the program but I know a large number of former NCOs who are now CAP officers.

#3 I can see but a road map to those changes would be very beneficial and quite possibly reduce the talk and confusion that is occurring today.

Are these new NCO positions going to be mandatory? If not, then what happens when a commander decides not to fill the position, thus impeding the next NCO promotion. If so, then what happens when a commander can't fill the position due to lack of qualified or suitable NCOs?

Are these positions going to have term limits? If not, then what prevents someone from being assigned to that position indefinitely, thus blocking the promotion of other NCOs? Why only one SNCO position per echelon? We can promote multiple Lt Cols in the squadron, but not multiple MSgts? I think this whole promotion system needs to be rethought.

It could be a sign of things to come on the officer side where there will be a time when there are not tons of Lt Cols in squadrons and promotions will be based on duty position.

[supertigerCH]

Storm Chaser,


I'm one of the many who agree with you... about the dark blue background for the other sew-on badges, name tags, etc.

When CAP thought they were probably going to adopt the ABU, dark/navy bllue background was on the verge of being approved for sew-on rank. (and was it also maybe for name tags as well?)

Of course... right at the last minute this change was stopped, and in the new (2014) M39-1 you can still see some drawings of uniforms that left in the images of the ones with dark blue background.

Seeing how good these NCO stripes look on the BDU (and probably BBDU)... it would probably still be a good change to finish carrying through with in the future.  Even though its not for the ABU anymore... it appears to look very good and professional on the current BDU-type uniforms as well (and still allows us to look distinct from the Air Force... which is what they want).

The new CAP NCO stripes have turned out to look good.  This is a development I think that CAP can call a success.

[lordmonar]

This is What they look like on BBDUs

[MIKE]

IMO the CAP cutouts should have stayed on the collar and off the stripes themselves.  I get it... you didn't want both...  The fade marks are particularly noticeable in MSgt Harris' pics.

[lordmonar]

IMO the CAP cutouts should have stayed on the collar and off the stripes themselves.  I get it... you didn't want both...  The fade marks are particularly noticeable in MSgt Harris' pics.

That's why this uniform is my spare spare uniform that sits in the bottom of my ES go bag.

My BDUs have a lot fade marks and glue from the old patches I took off too.  I just replaced my BDUs with a new set.

[Storm Chaser]

IMO the CAP cutouts should have stayed on the collar and off the stripes themselves.  I get it... you didn't want both...  The fade marks are particularly noticeable in MSgt Harris' pics.

If I was an NCO, I would welcome not having to put metal CAP cutouts on the collar of my Blues every time I wore them and the savings of not having to saw them on every BDU I own.

[Holding Pattern]

IMO the CAP cutouts should have stayed on the collar and off the stripes themselves.  I get it... you didn't want both...  The fade marks are particularly noticeable in MSgt Harris' pics.

If I was an NCO, I would welcome not having to put metal CAP cutouts on the collar of my Blues every time I wore them and the savings of not having to saw them on every BDU I own.

I for one would like to learn this sawing technique.

[SarDragon]

IMO the CAP cutouts should have stayed on the collar and off the stripes themselves.  I get it... you didn't want both...  The fade marks are particularly noticeable in MSgt Harris' pics.

If I was an NCO, I would welcome not having to put metal CAP cutouts on the collar of my Blues every time I wore them and the savings of not having to saw them on every BDU I own.

I for one would like to learn this sawing technique.

Well, that depends on whether you use a hack saw, a rip saw, a crosscut saw, or a two-person buck saw.  I prefer souped up chain saws myself.

[FW]

I think I just SAW enough of this topic.....

[Storm Chaser]

Not everyone can do it. I requires special skills.

[winterg]

Some the rank I've seen on SM, they may have used a saw. Maybe a block in Level 1 should be how to use a sewing machine. 

[Airplane girl]

Yeah, cadets should learn how to sew too. I have seen some name tapes that look like they were sawed on. I wanted to be a fashion designer before I wanted to be a pilot, so I know how to sew. But sometimes when thread gets caught in my sewing machine I want to saw it in half.

[Panache]

We could follow the British army on this; they have "Company Sergeant Majors"... CAP could have Squadron/Group Sergeant Major positions...might aggravate US Army & USMC, but shouldn't bother USAF, they don't use the title!

Noooooo.....come on now, you KNOW what would happen....


"You can't use those titles. They aren't Air Force enough for you. But you can't use our titles- they are too Air Force for us  to let you use them."

Stand by for "Squadron Stripe Wearer," "Group Chevron Bearer" and "Wing Chevron Striper."

"Senior Member NCO Supervisor"

[Tim Day]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19795.0
2.  To be able to better capture the leadership of former military NCOs.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the differences in our ability to capture the leadership of MSgt X, USAF if he becomes MSgt X, CAP instead of 2d Lt X, CAP.

[Nuke52]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19795.0
2.  To be able to better capture the leadership of former military NCOs.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the differences in our ability to capture the leadership of MSgt X, USAF if he becomes MSgt X, CAP instead of 2d Lt X, CAP.

  Oh, come on...  Isn't it obvious?!?   

[kwe1009]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19795.0
2.  To be able to better capture the leadership of former military NCOs.

I'd be interested in hearing what you think the differences in our ability to capture the leadership of MSgt X, USAF if he becomes MSgt X, CAP instead of 2d Lt X, CAP.

I haven't seen much difference in my leadership abilities when I take off the SMSgt uniform and put on the CAP captain uniform.  I really don't think we will get a wave of former NCOs to join CAP now that there is the ability to get promoted within the NCO ranks.  The promotion issue did not factor at all in my decision to go the officer route.

[Hawk200]

Well if you're talking subdued on BDUs, then that makes much more sense, and I see the cost savings for sewing.

I also didn't know about the pins on the light blue shirt collars either.

Still, in full color, on the shirts, if the red prop/white circle chevrons had been adopted, that surely would have been enough to comply with the distinctive and low-light visible directive.

Sure, but that design didn't get adopted. And as I said before, some people don't like the current design, but others do. It's really a matter of opinion.

When I first saw the pictures of the new stripes, I did bot like them at all.  Now, after seeing them on an actual uniform (I have two NCO's in my unit, 1 SSgt and 1 CMSgt) they look strangely decent.

Anyone have an actual picture?

[Hawk200]

I keep running out of popcorn.  Should I make more?   

Yes please. One or two truck loads should be enough. 

Regular, air popped, carmel or kettle?

Caramel.

[THRAWN]

Well if you're talking subdued on BDUs, then that makes much more sense, and I see the cost savings for sewing.

I also didn't know about the pins on the light blue shirt collars either.

Still, in full color, on the shirts, if the red prop/white circle chevrons had been adopted, that surely would have been enough to comply with the distinctive and low-light visible directive.

Sure, but that design didn't get adopted. And as I said before, some people don't like the current design, but others do. It's really a matter of opinion.

When I first saw the pictures of the new stripes, I did bot like them at all.  Now, after seeing them on an actual uniform (I have two NCO's in my unit, 1 SSgt and 1 CMSgt) they look strangely decent.

Anyone have an actual picture?

Scroll up.

[Hawk200]

Well if you're talking subdued on BDUs, then that makes much more sense, and I see the cost savings for sewing.

I also didn't know about the pins on the light blue shirt collars either.

Still, in full color, on the shirts, if the red prop/white circle chevrons had been adopted, that surely would have been enough to comply with the distinctive and low-light visible directive.

Sure, but that design didn't get adopted. And as I said before, some people don't like the current design, but others do. It's really a matter of opinion.

When I first saw the pictures of the new stripes, I did bot like them at all.  Now, after seeing them on an actual uniform (I have two NCO's in my unit, 1 SSgt and 1 CMSgt) they look strangely decent.

Anyone have an actual picture?

Scroll up.

Saw it, thanks. Posted from Tapatalk before I got to the rest of the thread.

However, anyone got pics of a Staff or Tech Sergeant wearing said stripes? The senior NCO stripes don't look Too bad, but I'm curious about the junior NCO stripes.

[RogueLeader]

Saw it, thanks. Posted from Tapatalk before I got to the rest of the thread.

However, anyone got pics of a Staff or Tech Sergeant wearing said stripes? The senior NCO stripes don't look Too bad, but I'm curious about the junior NCO stripes.

I'll take pic as soon as able.

[Hawk200]

Saw it, thanks. Posted from Tapatalk before I got to the rest of the thread.

However, anyone got pics of a Staff or Tech Sergeant wearing said stripes? The senior NCO stripes don't look Too bad, but I'm curious about the junior NCO stripes.

I'll take pic as soon as able.

Do appreciate it. Really curious.

[Hawk200]

Saw it, thanks. Posted from Tapatalk before I got to the rest of the thread.

However, anyone got pics of a Staff or Tech Sergeant wearing said stripes? The senior NCO stripes don't look Too bad, but I'm curious about the junior NCO stripes.

I'll take pic as soon as able.

Anything yet? Sorry to seem pushy, just really curious.

[RogueLeader]

Saw it, thanks. Posted from Tapatalk before I got to the rest of the thread.

However, anyone got pics of a Staff or Tech Sergeant wearing said stripes? The senior NCO stripes don't look Too bad, but I'm curious about the junior NCO stripes.

I'll take pic as soon as able.

Anything yet? Sorry to seem pushy, just really curious.

Nope

[MisterCD]

Via facebook at Andrews Composite Squadron:

[Shuman 14]

Those actually don't look that bad, once you see them on a real person.