Marksmanship badge

[Pylon]

I see way too many people going ape over a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force providing "marksmanship training." (Which would be an easy jump to make logically.)
...

Simple and easy, and CAP isn't taking any responsibility, either real or implied, that we are providing such training. We don't need any negative stigma.

Except that cadet programs around the country regularly conduct marksmanship training, as allowed by CAPR 52-16.  I don't see the need to "hide something" from public view that we fully allow and do.  Either we should fully embrace something as a welcome part of our program and be fully comfortable with publicizing that, or not do it at all.

[C/2d Lt]

Junior National Rifle
Association
Marksmanship Badge
(Earned in accordance
with NRA program.)
(Cadets only)
Men: with the top edge centered on the left pocket
flap of the service coat or shirt when worn as an
outergarment. Women: in the same position as
specialty insignia (above the ribbons and beneath
the wings).


From uniform manual.

[SarDragon]

We know that. That passage has been quoted at least once in this thread, and innumerable times in others.

The qualification program that the NRA had when that badge was initially authorized went away. There is a new program now. It has a different name, and different procedures. The badge may only be worn if it was earned under the old program. That is, until the 39-1 is updated.

[C/2d Lt]

My swuadron just had a R&R weekend(Ropes and Rifles). We all got qualified and were sent the regulations on where to wear them and that is what is said. You are allowed to currently wear them on your blues within the regulations that I stated above.

[SarDragon]

You still don't get it. No matter how many times you quote the reg, the bottom line is still the same. That badge is not currently authorized.

The program changed long before you joined CAP. The reg has not been updated to reflect the change. There are people out there who have chosen to make a very loose interpretation of the reg, and allow the badge to be worn. A strict interpretation does not allow this.

Selective interpretation of regulations is a problem in CAP, and is not keeping with the core values.

[C/2d Lt]

My squadront allows us to wear them and I have only heard of one cadet that couldnt where it because his squadron commander wouldnt allow him not because of the regulations.

[C/2d Lt]

That is the only reason that I know of of why he is not allowed to wear them. (Squadron Commander)

[Pylon]

We can't blame the members in the field for mis-interpreting an extremely vague and short authorization for the badge, especially if they don't know the historical context that there used to be an exact program with that specific name.  It's rather a failure on the national side to keep these things updated.

[a2capt]

..and any NRA instruction that is using approve materials and current should well know that the Junior Rifle Marksmanship Program has not been offered for quite a few years now. The current program is a combination of the merging of the nearly 100 year old Junior Rifle Marksmanship Program and the Winchester Junior Rifle Corps, that was also run by the NRA since 1926 after they took it over. Around 2002 they decided to merge the two programs. The badge that CAP authorizes was the one originally awarded as part of the Junior Rifle Marksmanship Program. When the two were merged, the new program, which is vastly different curriculum wise, retained the Junior Rifle Marksmanship badge, but is now known as the Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program.

Put simply, you CAN NOT WEAR THE BADGE because you CAN NOT EARN IT anymore, as the program named in the regulation DOES NOT EXIST and therefore is IMPOSSIBLE to participate in.

The regulation needs to be REWRITTEN, AMENDED, or whatever, to recognize the new program. Since it's not the same, and it's way more than a name change.

If people are using the old stuff, ratted and tattered photocopies of stuff, oil stained workbooks, etc, then they are doing a disservice to everyone involved.

Since the program ended in 2005, there's probably about 3 more years max, that any cadet should be wearing the badges, unless they are around 18 and older right now.

Anyone younger, it's practically impossible for them to have rightfully earned it. Through no fault of their own, it's leaderships problem. But it's fairly well known now, and should not be continuing.

[Eclipse]

This from March 2010:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10023.msg182620
(Though the referenced KB response was not apparently posted publicly.)

And this follow up from The Honorable Ned Lee, National board member and at the time National Cadet Adviser:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10023.msg183201#msg183201

The badge is actually the same.

Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge (old)


Winchester / NRA Marksmanship Qualification program (current)

Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge

The current program is called: Winchester / NRA Marksmanship Qualification program
And it should be noted that this is now a commercially sponsored program.  Not necessarily a deal breaker, but
certainly something to be considered when and if the new program is approved by NHQ.  Several members
have suggested that the qualification be changed to a generic set of tasks that could be accomplished
anywhere firearms training is otherwise approved, not just with the NRA programs.

Bottom line, they are not the same programs, not the same badges, and not currently approved for wear by CAP members in
uniform.

[C/2d Lt]

Winchester / NRA Marksmanship Qualification program badge is allowed correct.

[NCRblues]

Winchester / NRA Marksmanship Qualification program badge is allowed correct.

NO!!!

once again in case you missed it...

NO!!!!!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

While Winchester is on the certificates for this program (I just awarded 140 certificates in June), it does not appear on the medals. So I think the commercial involvement mentioned below is not relevant. Winchester paid a cool half million to put their name on the program so I think it will remain the same for the foreseeable future.

That said, I would change the regulation to allow the wear of the highest rating earned in the "new" program. I'd also specify that if wearing the sharpshooter medal only the highest bar rating may be attached. (The closer to 9 the more it looks like a banana republic medal). As the program no longer distinguishes between adult and junior shooters, I could live with senior members wearing it. Not sure if I'd wear it.

[Hawk200]

Except that cadet programs around the country regularly conduct marksmanship training, as allowed by CAPR 52-16.  I don't see the need to "hide something" from public view that we fully allow and do.  Either we should fully embrace something as a welcome part of our program and be fully comfortable with publicizing that, or not do it at all.

Those programs do, but we do not. We should not create a program that presents the appearance that we do. It's one thing to allow another program's award to be worn, it's another thing to create your own that implies that you have the same training. We don't have a marksmanship program, therefore any awards we create to recognize one misrepresent us.

Besides, what is so bad about letting someone wear an award from another program? Is CAP (or are we as members) so arrogant as an organization that something isn't valid unless we have our own award for it?

There's also the simple fact that the other program awards are recognized more widely. Why create something new that isn't? Why go through all the administrative hassle? In this case, allowing the NRA badges would be an added line in a publication, easily taken care of with a single supplement to the pub. Our own program would require it's own pub on marksmanship training (you can't to that with a policy letter), and all the other administrative costs.

And finally, simply approving other program awards to be worn doesn't require us to go through our "official insignia provider" to have something designed, produced, and ultimately adding additional cost to those members that would purchase it when they already have a badge/ribbon/decoration/award/etc.

I think that many of our members need to keep the K.I.S.S principle in mind.

[Pylon]

Those programs do, but we do not. We should not create a program that presents the appearance that we do.

Actually, we do.  Cadets can and do participate in marksmanship activities that are not the NRA program or through the NRA.

It's one thing to allow another program's award to be worn, it's another thing to create your own that implies that you have the same training. We don't have a marksmanship program, therefore any awards we create to recognize one misrepresent us.

It doesn't misrepresent anything, nor does it create a "CAP Marksmanship Program" simply by virtue of creating one internal award (which fits better into our awards schema) that recognizes an outside achievement.


We don't have a "Community Service Program" and cadets & seniors don't even perform (award-qualifying) community service on CAP time, yet we have an award and ribbon for that.  It doesn't misrepresent that CAP is an organization that goes out and works in soup kitchens and blood banks.

Besides, what is so bad about letting someone wear an award from another program? Is CAP (or are we as members) so arrogant as an organization that something isn't valid unless we have our own award for it?

It's not arrogance, it's simplicity and accessibility.  There is a whole handful of NRA (and other) marksmanship badges out there, for one.  There are also plenty of other marksmanship programs and activities allowable under CAPR 52-16 for which cadets don't get anything.  If a unit is in a location where there is no NRA programs, but/or they have other resources more readily available to them why shouldn't they be equally recognized?  A central CAP award that recognized a certain level of participation in any number of programs, including the NRA's programs, levels the playing field and makes more external options available -- all without, as you suggest, creating some sort of complicated "CAP Marksmanship Program"

There's also the simple fact that the other program awards are recognized more widely. Why create something new that isn't?

We generally don't base our awards on what's widely recognized.  People don't widely recognize our Lifesaving Ribbon, but we still award it rather than looking to external agencies like the Coast Guard Silver Lifesaving Medal.

Why go through all the administrative hassle?

It's actually potentially more administrative hassle to keep updating our publications around NRA's program evolutions and changes, rather than create a standard award for external marksmanship programs that's more of a "catch-all".  So when NRA changes their badges again, or changes the structure of the program, we aren't in the same pickle we are now for 5+ years where we have a defunct badge still on the books for a defunct program that no longer exists.

In this case, allowing the NRA badges would be an added line in a publication, easily taken care of with a single supplement to the pub. Our own program would require it's own pub on marksmanship training (you can't to that with a policy letter), and all the other administrative costs.

This change would simply be adding a paragraph to CAPR 39-3 and inserting a ribbon into the cadet order of precedence.  No more or less a hassle than updating the wording and badge listings for the NRAs.  Except that our publication may not have to be changed again 5 years if NRA changes something or adds or deletes a badge

And finally, simply approving other program awards to be worn doesn't require us to go through our "official insignia provider" to have something designed, produced, and ultimately adding additional cost to those members that would purchase it when they already have a badge/ribbon/decoration/award/etc.

The NRA badges aren't free either.

I think that many of our members need to keep the K.I.S.S principle in mind.

The idea behind streamlining it is to keep it simple, if we're looking at the long game.

[Eclipse]

Those programs do, but we do not. We should not create a program that presents the appearance that we do. It's one thing to allow another program's award to be worn, it's another thing to create your own that implies that you have the same training. We don't have a marksmanship program, therefore any awards we create to recognize one misrepresent us.

When worn by cadets, marksmanship does not misrepresent CAP, since career exploration, including military service, is a cornerstone of the cadet program.  So is being a good citizen, and a large number of Americans still believe that training to use firearms properly and responsibly is a mark of
a responsible, prepared citizen.

Besides, what is so bad about letting someone wear an award from another program? Is CAP (or are we as members) so arrogant as an organization that something isn't valid unless we have our own award for it?

What is worn on our uniforms is, for the most part, dictated by the USAF, and they are pretty finicky with what they let their own people and CAP members wear, regardless of the service.

Now, more towards the NRA program itself, I learned something today which has turned me off the idea.  The badges may be "awarded" based on the "honor system", which means no one from the NRA has to actually certify that the wearer has completed the steps.  What else do we allow our cadets to wear that is not vetted by some authority in CAP? 

I would much rather see cadets wearing a CAP marksmanship badge that required that a CAP member or military rangemaster certify the accomplishment.  Many encampments include live-fire or simunition ranges and earning that badge would be a big draw for cadets.

Otherwise we might as well start allowing members to wear the PVSA as well.

[lordmonar]

Now, more towards the NRA program itself, I learned something today which has turned me off the idea.  The badges may be "awarded" based on the "honor system", which means no one from the NRA has to actually certify that the wearer has completed the steps.  What else do we allow our cadets to wear that is not vetted by some authority in CAP? 

I would much rather see cadets wearing a CAP marksmanship badge that required that a CAP member or military rangemaster certify the accomplishment.  Many encampments include live-fire or simunition ranges and earning that badge would be a big draw for cadets.

Otherwise we might as well start allowing members to wear the PVSA as well.

Well not quite true.  While the NRA will let anyone order the badges......you are supposed to present your targets to an NRA instructor.  It is true that for the most part you don't have to by observed by that instructor. 

On that there are plenty of safe guards that CAP can put in place to stop any one trying to game the system.....i.e. a written certification from and NRA instructor that he in fact did see the requuired targets.  Kind of like how we certify community services hours. 

So Joe Cadet shows up one day with the NRA Pro-Marksman Rifle badge, saying "Hey I shot 200 yestereday".....all you got to say is....I need to see a letter from an NRA instructor saying he verified your targets.

[Eclipse]

Now, more towards the NRA program itself, I learned something today which has turned me off the idea.  The badges may be "awarded" based on the "honor system", which means no one from the NRA has to actually certify that the wearer has completed the steps.  What else do we allow our cadets to wear that is not vetted by some authority in CAP? 

I would much rather see cadets wearing a CAP marksmanship badge that required that a CAP member or military rangemaster certify the accomplishment.  Many encampments include live-fire or simunition ranges and earning that badge would be a big draw for cadets.

Otherwise we might as well start allowing members to wear the PVSA as well.

Well not quite true.  While the NRA will let anyone order the badges......you are supposed to present your targets to an NRA instructor.  It is true that for the most part you don't have to by observed by that instructor. 

On that there are plenty of safe guards that CAP can put in place to stop any one trying to game the system.....i.e. a written certification from and NRA instructor that he in fact did see the requuired targets.  Kind of like how we certify community services hours. 

So Joe Cadet shows up one day with the NRA Pro-Marksman Rifle badge, saying "Hey I shot 200 yestereday".....all you got to say is....I need to see a letter from an NRA instructor saying he verified your targets.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp

Qualification shooting is an informal, year-round recreational shooting activity that provides incentive awards for developing and improving marksmanship skills. It's a drill. We set the standards; you meet the challenge! Progression is self-paced and scores are challenging but attainable. Performance is measured against established par scores and any shooter who meets or exceeds those scores is entitled to the corresponding recognition awards for that rating. It's an honor system!

Administration
Qualification shooting can be a self-administered activity on the honor system, or it can be administered by parents, club leaders, coaches, or instructors as part of a family, club, or group program.

Ratings
Ratings in the qualification program must be earned in sequence from the beginning. While beginning ratings may be relatively easy for some shooters to obtain, these ratings and the recognition the shooters receive, keep interest high and help sustain shooters when ratings become much more difficult to obtain. NRA does not track earned ratings.

It does not appear that you need any NRA certification until you are looking to attain "Distinguished Expert".

[lordmonar]

And?

So we make are cadets go a little farther then little johnny and the othe kids at the range.

[Eclipse]

So we make are cadets go a little farther then little johnny and the othe kids at the range.

How? And under what authority?

CAP isn't the sanctioning body and if it accepts the NRA's program, has no grounds to question the how's and why's
of where the certificate came from.

Cadet Johnny brings in his cert and that's that, the same as when he brings in his ARC First Aid card.
CAP has decided to accept some other organizations certification, so it has to accept their methods of qualification.
And in this case, it's just Johnny telling the NRA how awesome his 'shootin' skills is'. 

That's why, from a credibility standpoint, if they are going to fix the reg, they should go with an objective standard
set by CAP, and award the badge only when the shooting is done in a CAP activity.