I must agree with you Bflynn, I have spent a good bit of time in theater, and spending enough time in actual combat, losing brothers. I also know of taking another life in combat, and the biggest thing to remember is that there really is no glory in war. You can earn medals, but it is still not glorious. These awards are tokens of appreciation for what you have done, but they are nothing when you really think of the grand scheme. They mean a lot to you, they mean a lot to your family, but they lose their meaning to you when you think about what you did to earn them. The glory really fades when you think about what you have done, taking a brother, son, husband, father from their family. And really when you think about half of the men you are fighting, people doing the same exact thing you would do in the same situation, half of them are Doug what they think is right. They think that all they are doing is trying to protect their homes family and neighborhood.

But at this same time, I cannot say in any manner that the reason and purpose for wearing the USAF style uniforms is void in any way nowadays. I look at it like this...

I wear the uniform not for myself, but for those who have worn it before me. I wear it as professionally as possible so that I may bring hen honor by continuing their traditions. I try to instill this same way of thinking in those around me, especially the cadets.

When you think about what the purpose is for a military uniform is, it gets much easier to support it, and to desire to wear it. The tradition, the pride, and honoring those who have worn it before you.

The military really is a necessary evil. And in order for there to be good, there must be evil. It is the same reasoning behind the thought of needing pain to feel pleasure. Without the full spectrum there cannot be one or the other. For there to be the peace that everyone loves and desires, there must be war. It is a sad truth, but one that must be embraced to bring yourself to terms with the world. I knew this from a rather young age, at about 12 I knew that I wanted to be in the military, when I was asked why when I was 13, is was replied to with just raised eyebrows, and an oh, and they walked away. My answer was because I know that in order for there to be pleasure there must be pain, and peace is pleasure, so war must be met to have peace and pleasure, and I was willing to go through the pain for others to have pleasure.

I think I got off topic and can't really remember where I was going with this, so it might be revised in another post later on, but I hope I wasn't too out of the ball park.

I wear the USAF uniform in CAP and take it as a great honour and privilege bestowed upon me by the USAF.  Hence, I always try to wear it as per regs.

I don't wear it because I see myself as some sort of "great warrior," because I'm not.  I'm a 46-year-old guy with grey/white/silver hair (what there is left of it)

I also wear it as a mark of distinction of being in the "Air Force Family," though the feeling of "family" has waned over the past decade or so.

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 05:28:18 PM

I also wear it as a mark of distinction of being in the "Air Force Family," though the feeling of "family" has waned over the past decade or so.

It really has, and it saddens me. I wonder how it would go over with the Air Force if we were to try to figure out a national commercial, bringing us back in the spotlight. Really try to drive ourselves back to where we were when we had those really neat recruiting posters. When we had a more recognizable image in the public. We need a better logo than what NHQ got recently. It is nice, but not fitting for the USAF Aux. we need something. That showed who we really are and what we do, more than looking like a flying club. I am willing to bet that were we to have a more public image and if we were more recognizable we would be able to do away with the stigma of these "massive uniform and etiquette issues".

We would probably have to tighten our look upon the regulations, and really enforce them strongly.

If your haircut isn't in reg, o home until it is, missing your nameplate cadet? Be in civvies until it is fixed.

And the one that scares people so much... Oh, you demanded a salute from an active duty airman? Get lost.

I don't see that one happening, in fact I havent seen it happen at all that I can think of. But it scares some people including USAF so muh that they have put us in grey uniforms and nameplates. No, that does not bother me, but it serves as a constant reminder that a few messed up in the past, and now we are all punished for it.

I don't know what should be done to try to motivate the ball to roll, should letters be sent to national, or should they be sent to CAP-USAF, or if there would be a better way to go about it.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 24, 2012, 06:06:35 PM
I don't know what should be done to try to motivate the ball to roll, should letters be sent to national, or should they be sent to CAP-USAF, or if there would be a better way to go about it.

The best way to affect change in any organization is to increase your level of involvement - contact your wing and see how you can get more involved in CAP-USAF relationship. The only recommendation I can make specific to CAP is don't bypass the chain of command.

Take my advice FWIW as a CAP newb tho - I am mainly speaking from experience in other organizations that I have belonged to

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 03:14:12 PM
To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure. 

Well, it depends on the type of augmenting you're doing on whether or not you have to go through the additional security check.  But, if you do, you don't end up with an actual security clearance unless the CG specifically says you need it for what you're going to do for them (fairly rare situation). 

Quote from: RiverAux on May 24, 2012, 11:37:55 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 03:14:12 PM
To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure. 

Well, it depends on the type of augmenting you're doing on whether or not you have to go through the additional security check.  But, if you do, you don't end up with an actual security clearance unless the CG specifically says you need it for what you're going to do for them (fairly rare situation).

Interesting - beyond the FOUO classifications that we have does CAP ever work in the classified realm?

Quote from: bflynn on May 25, 2012, 01:58:23 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on May 24, 2012, 11:37:55 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2012, 03:14:12 PM
To directly support the USCG, you have to have an additional security clearance above-and-beyond what you already have to go through to join the CGAUX.  I think it's Secret level, but I am not sure. 

Well, it depends on the type of augmenting you're doing on whether or not you have to go through the additional security check.  But, if you do, you don't end up with an actual security clearance unless the CG specifically says you need it for what you're going to do for them (fairly rare situation).

Interesting - beyond the FOUO classifications that we have does CAP ever work in the classified realm?

Counter drug. But it is all off topic. 

Eservices has a module to track clearances but it hasn't been needed for even some of the semi-secret squirrel stuff that the PAOs aren't allowed to talk about it, but is fairly well-known within CAP.  If its done, it has got to be really rare, but thats getting a little off topic.

CD stuff isn't classified.

Quote from: bflynn on May 25, 2012, 01:58:23 AM
Interesting - beyond the FOUO classifications that we have does CAP ever work in the classified realm?

Yes - some HLS missions fall into that category, and many members maintain security clearances.

Quote from: krnlpanick on May 24, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
The best way to affect change in any organization is to increase your level of involvement - contact your wing and see how you can get more involved in CAP-USAF relationship.

I still think it would be difficult for those not living near an AF/ANG/AFRC installation.  And with the Guard and Reserve, how much help are they going to need except on drill weekends or assisting with mobilisation, and wouldn't that be stepping on SDF's toes (for those states who have an Air SDF)?

Helping out in a recruiter's office could be an option...if nothing else, a recruiter can set you straight on uniform protocols! :clap:

Also, given the drastic reduction in State Directors (I think all we're going to have is Region Directors), how would we make contact with the AF by going through channels (NOTE: I do NOT recommend NOT going through channels!!!)?

Captain Cyrus Borg tells his Squadron CC, Major Goldleaf, that he wants to help out with the AF.

Major Goldleaf tells Captain Borg that he hasn't the foggiest idea how to go about it, but he'll send it up the chain.  Major Goldleaf tells Group Commander Lieutenant Colonel Silverleaf the Captain's request.  Lt Col Silverleaf is just as perplexed, but he takes it to the Wing CC, Colonel Silverbird.  Col Silverbird doesn't know of any opportunities, but because he likes Captain Borg, he contacts Region Commander Colonel Eaglebird.  Colonel Eaglebird talks to the Region CAP-USAF liaison, who tells him that there really isn't much that the USAF could use an individual CAP member to do, and if so they would prefer to use cadets.

So what are the chances of Captain Borg's request getting lost somewhere along the line (due to human error) as opposed to the situation outlined above?

Quote from: CyBorg on May 25, 2012, 02:35:01 PMAlso, given the drastic reduction in State Directors (I think all we're going to have is Region Directors), how would we make contact with the AF by going through channels (NOTE: I do NOT recommend NOT going through channels!!!)?

Anyone can walk into a USAF office (assuming you have access), and offer to help as a citizen of this fine country, however any official involvement
of a CAP member with the military is supposed to have the approval and involvement of the SD's LRADOs.  They are just people, busier then before, but they all have phones and email.

There's nothing wrong with making the contacts and setting the framework in advance, but having them find out in a staff meeting that a member is doing something they are unaware of is a great way to see that you're told to knock it off.

And as you say, if the need existed, they'ed be asking.  The new structure is going to bring all sorts of new opportunities on the volunteer side of the house, but seriously, what is the average member going to assist the USAF with in a way which stays in CAP's lane?

I agree, if the need was there, the AF would be asking, but we have to take into consideration that there is a big chunk of the AF who doesn't know who we are, and I also believe that their request for assistance would be for older cadets, because (say) a recruiter might have heard the stories and rumours and SSgt Recruiter doesn't want to get into a "pulling rank" situation with Lieutenant Colonel Olderman, even though per regs no such dynamic exists.

Nonetheless, I believe that closer interaction with the Air Force would be beneficial, both for us and the Air Force.  Familiarity may breed contempt, but unfamiliarity breeds Bravo Sierra.  So many AF members only know of us through the stories and rumours of trolling for salutes, when that is an extremely small percentage of our membership pulling such idiocy.  If the Air Force would have some sort of CAP-Augment function where we truly worked together, they would most likely see that CAP in the main is made up of dedicated volunteers who really would jump at the chance of helping the Air Force.

About a decade or so back, I had a conversation with an ANG SMSgt (great guy) who was also in CAP.  The SDF did not have an air wing, and we got on the subject of how the SDF's would assume operation of armouries, but what about ANG facilities?  The SMSgt's reply:

"I thought that was one thing Civil Air Patrol would do."

To the best of my knowledge, the only states with active Air SDF's are Texas, California and Oregon (not sure about the last one).  There is absolutely no reason why we could not be employed in a similar way with the Air Force, ANG (federal status) and AFRC.

On the subject of uniforms, we could certainly learn a lot from (for example) a recruiter, since they have to look spit-and-polish all the time.

In terms of flying SDF air wings you're only looking at Alaska, Virginia, and possibly Vermont.  Texas and California are probably the only ones that are significantly involved in providing support to their Air NG.

Sort of way off topic though.

Quote from: CyBorg on May 25, 2012, 08:38:27 PMIf the Air Force would have some sort of CAP-Augment function where we truly worked together, they would most likely see that CAP in the main is made up of dedicated volunteers who really would jump at the chance of helping the Air Force.

That's the key, "working together", in the same way the USAF would work with any other service organization or even contractors.  The VSAF program really had nothing to do with CAP, other than being the potential labor pool, and I would say that on the CAP side, that was a big factor in the resounding crickets.

And seriously, if, by the random chance, a CAP Major were to get assigned to work with a USAF Capt or NCO, is it the end of the world if, as a "thank you" for the free labor and service, the USAF people said "Sir" or saluted at whatever frequency was customary for the others in that duty situation?  Will good order and discipline break down immediately and chaos reign?

There's plenty of goobers to go around, but scaling your program to try and circumvent the "Goober Factor" defeats you before you start. 

I've had more than my CAP-Share in dealing with the military, and have never been treated with anything but respect and professionalism, in
fact, I don't know anyone personally who has ever had a negative experience with military personnel, and my wing has two Major Command bases
with a lot of CAP activity, but to hear some tell it, some military personnel treat CAP worse then they would treat the soda delivery guy, certainly
unacceptable on any level if these situations are true.

you know all this talk about working together.....has anyone ever thought about how the air force "works together" interally?

Even on the same base various squadrons and workcenters within the same squadron have very little idea what the other really does.

In-fact when different squadrons have to work together creates some of the most spectatular head butting known to man.

Just look at the "rivalry" between flying squadrons and maintenance squadorns.  Both ops and maintainers are always complaining that the other side does not understand their jobs...and that they are working at cross purposes.

So....while I think it would be good to find way CAP can help the USAF more directly....the idea that we would improve our relationship by it....I think is a little idealistic.

YMMV.

Idealism is better than cynisism, and definitely better than pessimism.

If you want to go ahead and throw the idea of being more inline with and closer to USAF out the window, then oh we'll. But I know there are plenty of us who believe its possible, and only takes work. And I'm pretty sure that given time and effort it will get better. The only thing that will kill us is all of the naysayers and whiners and cynics. Not to mention those who for some reason who want us as far from USAF as possible... And you know how I feel about that.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
That's the key, "working together", in the same way the USAF would work with any other service organization or even contractors.  The VSAF program really had nothing to do with CAP, other than being the potential labor pool, and I would say that on the CAP side, that was a big factor in the resounding crickets.

The VSAF was certainly not an invite for CAP to participate, at least not specifically.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
And seriously, if, by the random chance, a CAP Major were to get assigned to work with a USAF Capt or NCO, is it the end of the world if, as a "thank you" for the free labor and service, the USAF people said "Sir" or saluted at whatever frequency was customary for the others in that duty situation?  Will good order and discipline break down immediately and chaos reign?

It absolutely would not be the end of the world.  I would take it as a great honour.  I suppose a lot of my cautiousness regarding that issue has to do with the time I joined CAP (right after the Harwell self-promotion/incidents of CAP officers trolling for salutes/berry boards).  Much of my Level I was having it drilled into me again and again that we, CAP, are only allowed to wear the USAF uniform by the good graces of the USAF, that those good graces were recently abused terribly, and now we are being punished for it...to avoid that happening again (or worse), tread lightly whenever you are around Air Force personnel...and our CAP ranks account for little to nothing of them.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
There's plenty of goobers to go around, but scaling your program to try and circumvent the "Goober Factor" defeats you before you start. 

Or "wannabe factor."   I think I know what you're getting at.

As I've said, when I'm on an Air Force installation in the USAF style uniform, I often feel the need to apologise for all the "goobers" in CAP who have sullied the waters between us and the AF in the past by doing stupid things.

Quote from: Eclipse on May 25, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
I've had more than my CAP-Share in dealing with the military, and have never been treated with anything but respect and professionalism, in
fact, I don't know anyone personally who has ever had a negative experience with military personnel, and my wing has two Major Command bases
with a lot of CAP activity, but to hear some tell it, some military personnel treat CAP worse then they would treat the soda delivery guy, certainly
unacceptable on any level if these situations are true.

I've had plenty of much-appreciated respect from military personnel...the majority of it coming from Army (especially National Guard), Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard personnel.  I've had a few "warm fuzzies" from AF personnel but most of my experience has been indifference, except in the early days of my CAP membership.  I do remember sitting in a base Burger King with a few other CAP members and overhearing some Airmen say "why do those 'CAPpies' get to use our facilities?"  I wasn't the only one that overheard it.

I'm not saying that AF maltreatment of CAP personnel is widespread, or that it even exists outside of a cluster of some antisocial types who probably don't even like themselves anyway.  As I've said, my experience with AF personnel has generally been indifference.

But who is to make the determination that it is "unacceptable on any level" (I agree with that statement, incidentally)?  After all, if we are partners with the AF, we are most definitely the junior partner.

RiverAux: To me this ties in with uniforms because uniforms have been such a contentious issue, especially between CAP and the AF.

Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2012, 09:39:43 PM
So....while I think it would be good to find way CAP can help the USAF more directly....the idea that we would improve our relationship by it....I think is a little idealistic.

Sir, you misunderstand me if you are saying I am an idealist!   I am one of the most hardbitten cynics you would ever meet.

Yes, having been ANG, I do know a bit about how different units on the same base work (or not) together, though maybe the Guard isn't the best example because people tend to be in the same Guard unit a lot longer than AD AF personnel are in their units, especially if they're AGR types.

So, I would turn the question back: How do you think the relationship could be improved, or do you think it cannot, and we would do better to just accept things (including the distance between us and our parent service) as they are?

Quote from: CyBorg on May 25, 2012, 09:52:28 PMBut who is to make the determination that it is "unacceptable on any level" (I agree with that statement, incidentally)?  After all, if we are partners with the AF, we are most definitely the junior partner.

I don't see myself, or CAP, as "junior anything", at the level we're discussing.  There are chains of command and authority, and everyone needs to abide by those, and like everything else, the "who gets what toys" decisions are generally made well above the rank and file on either side.

By Goober Factor I was also also referring to those on the military side who choose to make themselves feel better by belittling someone else, whether its CAP, a contractor, or someone from another service.  Carrying a CAC card does not automatically give your opinion any more weight or authority then anyone else in line at the Subway, but many in CAP are so unsure of their own place, that they automatically give more deference then necessary or appropriate to the opinions of those in uniform, simply and only because of the uniform.

Tangential to Lord's point about difficulties with intra-service cooperation, there's always been good-natured (and sometimes otherwise) rivalries between the services as well.  The "fix" for that is being confident enough to know that you, as a member, are in the proper place, acting as you should, and serving your country.

As a mature adult, with silver oaks on my shoulders, and plenty of BTDT bling on my wall, I'm not inclined to be too concerned about what a random NCO who has no authority over me, or even a need to interact, thinks, or doesn't think, about where I'm eating lunch, or whether I get saluted, or any greeting at all.  Negative comments, or worse, of course, are not acceptable on the basic respect and integrity level, but beyond that, some people simply do not work and play well with others, and it's not likely anything to do with CAP, anyway.

If it impacts something I'm involved with negatively, then I'll address as necessary, otherwise, we, as members, need to be confident in our place in the universe and try not to be so thin-skinned.

Now, if you go around trolling salutes, or trying to do anything else outside your lane, then you deserve the whole load of bricks on your head, but
these situations should be handled on a per-Goober basis, just as they are in the military, not a blanket indictment of everyone, on either side of the
discussion.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 25, 2012, 09:49:57 PM
Idealism is better than cynisism, and definitely better than pessimism.

If you want to go ahead and throw the idea of being more inline with and closer to USAF out the window, then oh we'll. But I know there are plenty of us who believe its possible, and only takes work. And I'm pretty sure that given time and effort it will get better. The only thing that will kill us is all of the naysayers and whiners and cynics. Not to mention those who for some reason who want us as far from USAF as possible... And you know how I feel about that.

The problem is...I don't think that we are out of line or not close to the USAF.

I think that we are just like any other squadron on base.  We do our job...seperate from the guys at the CE squadron, Comm Squadorn, Secruity Forces Squadorn, Med Group, MPF, Logistics Squadron, Flying squadrons.

When we do work together......in my experince.....the AD/RES/NG USAF is usually impressed with what we can do, how well we do it, and are totally faberglasted that we PAY for the privilage to do it.

YMMV

Quote from: lordmonar on May 25, 2012, 10:22:17 PM
When we do work together......in my experince.....the AD/RES/NG USAF is usually impressed with what we can do, how well we do it, and are totally faberglasted that we PAY for the privilage to do it.

This has been my experience as well.