(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1422455_798205756872519_2147020251_n.jpg)
Apparently on Nov. 19th the The 43d Aeromedical Evacuation Squadron hosted a retreat ceremony at Pope Army Airfield N.C. and I noticed a uniform that caught my eye. And had to share it. And I am lost for words... What do you think?
That image looks fake from 10 different angles.
The podium, lighting, etc.
Go play somewhere else, and quit posting fake images to Facebook.
Not Faked. I wish it was here is the whole story.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=798205756872519&set=a.798203563539405.1073741882.200238090002625&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=798205756872519&set=a.798203563539405.1073741882.200238090002625&type=1&theater)
QuoteWe can Wear ABU's now
No, we can't. (How many ABU threads does this make?)
I just found it on Pope Air Base's FB page, too.
I still say it looks manipulated.. but, here's another:
(https://scontent-b-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1441526_798210326872062_1314148024_n.jpg)
That's just so weird looking, with the lighting effects going on.
As for the uniform wear, how many times was CMSgt Lou E. Walpus spotted wearing unapprov, er, modified stripes?
Things are "tried out" for public reception.
At least I hope that's what's going on here.
..though the Chaplain's supplement the Air Force needs..
ABUs are coming. We know that.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/43d-Airlift-Group/200238090002625 (https://www.facebook.com/pages/43d-Airlift-Group/200238090002625)
That's a bad photo-shop job or someone is in major violation of 39-1.
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 21, 2013, 02:28:32 AM
That's a bad photo-shop job or someone is in major violation of 39-1.
I know it is not Photoshop Im going with the Violation of 39-1 and you can't tell me there is a supplement for chaplains on this.
In 2009, Lt. Col Bobbey was NCWG Chaplain, can't tell if that is still current or not.
Quote from: wowcap on November 21, 2013, 02:33:25 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 21, 2013, 02:28:32 AM
That's a bad photo-shop job or someone is in major violation of 39-1.
I know it is not Photoshop Im going with the Violation of 39-1 and you can't tell me there is a supplement for chaplains on this.
It may not be Photoshop, but it smells...
fishy.
In any case.. one might say ..
(http://eatingacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/the-cat-out-the-bag.jpg)
Quote from: a2capt on November 21, 2013, 02:37:37 AM
In any case.. one might say ..
(http://eatingacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/the-cat-out-the-bag.jpg)
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: a2capt on November 21, 2013, 02:36:36 AM
In 2009, Lt. Col Bobbey was NCWG Chaplain, can't tell if that is still current or not.
He is and is Current.
Quote from: wowcap on November 21, 2013, 02:33:25 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 21, 2013, 02:28:32 AM
That's a bad photo-shop job or someone is in major violation of 39-1.
I know it is not Photoshop Im going with the Violation of 39-1 and you can't tell me there is a supplement for chaplains on this.
Sorry I am not blind and that looks like a bad shop job. I do not know what your experience is but it's completely fake or he is in direct violation of the regs in many regards.
1. The pics are not photoshopped
2. It's ugly
3. Including the puke green boots, that uniform cost him more than $200
4. If you're going to blow off the regs, why not go all the way
If its a shop-job, its a [darn]ed good one. The tapes/grade are curved with the uniform, and he certainly doesn't have a 1/8" blue around that cross. I have no doubt it's real. I'm also sure the answer would be something like "the AF saidI ccould when I augment" ::)
The actual CAP variant if the ABU looks much, much, much different than what this (hopefully former) member put together himself.
Has he been terminated yet?!?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 21, 2013, 03:14:05 AM
If its a shop-job, its a [darn]ed good one. The tapes/grade are curved with the uniform, and he certainly doesn't have a 1/8" blue around that cross. I have no doubt it's real. I'm also sure the answer would be something like "the AF saidI ccould when I augment" ::)
More likely that the excuse is "The AF said the UOD is ABU's."
Not that its right.
It would be better for him if it was shopped, because someone needs to show the good Lt Col how to properly
affix those insignia.
Frankly my G-A-S-F on this is below zero.
Quote from: RogueLeader on November 21, 2013, 03:17:06 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 21, 2013, 03:14:05 AM
If its a shop-job, its a [darn]ed good one. The tapes/grade are curved with the uniform, and he certainly doesn't have a 1/8" blue around that cross. I have no doubt it's real. I'm also sure the answer would be something like "the AF saidI ccould when I augment" ::)
More likely that the excuse is "The AF said the UOD is ABU's."
Not that its right.
With that logic I guess any invitees from other branches would have had to go buy ABUs.
Well, those images are in fact on the The 43d's Facebook gallery, so either someone is really skilled at the greatest practical joke, or a uniform "test" "experiment" "thing" just got photographed. If it's a practical joke, it's clever, and well slid-in.
In 1974-76, Chaplain Bobbey, then Capt. was with the 96th Ordnance Company in Herborn, Germany. Perhaps put in a full career with the Air Force and is now with CAP, no stranger to being around the Air Force, and is supplementing the Air Force Chaplain Corps, as there really is a shortage of chaplains.
Quote from: a2capt on November 21, 2013, 03:42:51 AMIn 1974-76, Chaplain Bobbey, then Capt. was with the 96th Ordnance Company in Herborn, Germany. Perhaps put in a full career with the Air Force and is now with CAP, no stranger to being around the Air Force, and is supplementing the Air Force Chaplain Corps, as there really is a shortage of chaplains.
Maybe there's a AFI or something on the USAF side that allows him to wear the ABUs when supplementing, same as Navy Corpsmen have the option to wear some of the the USMC uniforms when attached to a Marine unit.
Perhaps .. though with all the years of ABUs in service, and since BDUs have been past the sunset date for the Air Force, I bet we'd have seen that before this.
..and those ABU threads would be full of "well, the Chaplains can wear them..", bits.
Perhaps..
This is not the first time we have seen a CAP Chaplain augmenting wearing the service's uniform - that doesn't make it right, and
my guess is that this visibility will fix the situation one way or another.
If you not how worn and mis-matched the insignia are, I would guess they've been in use for quite a while.
As there have been no reports that the CAPTalk server have exploded yet, it's safe to assume that the new 39-1 hasn't been released.
So, no, you can't wear ABU's unless you go an enlist in the USAF. Not yet, at least.
That being said...
I tend to agree with Eclipse that it's a CAP Chaplain augmenting USAF. Considering what we've heard is that (1) we're keeping the black boots and (2) the background on our tapes and grade insignia will be going to a shade of navy blue, I'm willing to bet real money this isn't a uniform variant is anywhere in the new 39-1.
Black boots with ABUs? Disgusting!
Looks like it's polo shirt for me from now on if this goes through. Bad enough we're going to ABUs, but black boots? I've seen this before and it looks HORRIBLE. Worse than the maroon epaulets even.
Eh, I wouldn't worry too much Stonewall. Realize that "what we've heard" does not equal "what we know". It's just talk and rumors now.
Save your ire until the new 39-1 is released. ;)
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 05:01:35 AM
This is not the first time we have seen a CAP Chaplain augmenting wearing the service's uniform - that doesn't make it right, and
my guess is that this visibility will fix the situation one way or another.
If you not how worn and mis-matched the insignia are, I would guess they've been in use for quite a while.
I first saw it in 2008, when my encampment benefited from the services of a CAP chaplain from a neighboring wing, who was also augmenting as the chaplain for a guard combat comm. squadron on base at the same time. Right, wrong, or indifferent, when I asked him why he was wearing ABUs with CAP insignia, he told me that it was ok'd by NHQ only while serving as an augmentee. When he showed up to do anything with us-like teach a CD class, he was in a proper uniform.
Again, right or wrong, and without any way to verify his story, I got him and his questionable uniform out of the AO quick, fast and in a hurry. Seeing this, under very similar circumstances, tends to lend a bit of credence to that. But who really knows.
Hmm... well, then that would make me think that augmentation happens .. very little.
At least in this sense.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 21, 2013, 05:16:23 AM
Black boots with ABUs? Disgusting!
Looks like it's polo shirt for me from now on if this goes through. Bad enough we're going to ABUs, but black boots? I've seen this before and it looks HORRIBLE. Worse than the maroon epaulets even.
What I was told by someone who was on the committee, the reason for the black boots is to keep costs down for the cadets. With most of them going through growth spurts the feeling was why pay the high fee for the sage green boots just to grow out of them in a month?
Quote from: Angus on November 21, 2013, 01:57:09 PM
What I was told by someone who was on the committee, the reason for the black boots is to keep costs down for the cadets. With most of them going through growth spurts the feeling was why pay the high fee for the sage green boots just to grow out of them in a month?
I think, and I could be completely wrong, that black boots with ABUs will be like White T-shirts with BDUs was: an interim measure that is eventually found to be in need of adjustment.
Also, the local "Big Lots-style" store here as various boots & shoes from Wellco in various sizes and colors (black, jungle, desert & green) for $20-25 a pair.
;)
The costs will eventually come down.
Why not split the difference and wear the green jungle boots with the ABU >:D
Quote from: Al Sayre on November 21, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
Why not split the difference and wear the green jungle boots with the ABU >:D
(http://www.trendy-fashion-wear.de/Crocs/pics/Crocs_Baya_Kelly_Green_l.jpg)
Now that would be a crock of ..
Quote from: Al Sayre on November 21, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
Why not split the difference and wear the green jungle boots with the ABU >:D
Why not just stipulate (seems to be one of my favorite words now) that black and sage are authorized? As well as hot pink for female cadets and seniors, patent leather for those special formal events?
OK - so the last proposal maintains the NASCAR-esque quality of the field uniform, but you guys are concerned that the "boots don't look right?".
Black are cheap and easy to maintain - buy the correct ones and you don't even have to shine them, not to mention they can be worn with regular
clothes and no one will think you're trying to making a "statement".
Seriously, you guys prefer the UGGS to "real" boots?
(http://www.bootssouthafrica.org/images/AUGG/-short-olive-greenugg-classic-short-208_05.jpg)
BTW - you're welcome, because none you who have read this post will ever see those boots the same way again, and they will
forever be called "UGGS" in your mind's eye. Trying to not think about this will only make you think about it more!
Quote from: wowcap on November 21, 2013, 02:11:47 AM
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1422455_798205756872519_2147020251_n.jpg)
Apparently on Nov. 19th the The 43d Aeromedical Evacuation Squadron hosted a retreat ceremony at Pope Army Airfield N.C. and I noticed a uniform that caught my eye. And had to share it. And I am lost for words... What do you think?
One person not following the official CAP rules does not make it ok for the rest of us to follow suit. It is not yet authorized for the general membership and that is the end of it.
Quote from: NIN on November 21, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: Angus on November 21, 2013, 01:57:09 PM
What I was told by someone who was on the committee, the reason for the black boots is to keep costs down for the cadets. With most of them going through growth spurts the feeling was why pay the high fee for the sage green boots just to grow out of them in a month?
I think, and I could be completely wrong, that black boots with ABUs will be like White T-shirts with BDUs was: an interim measure that is eventually found to be in need of adjustment.
Also, the local "Big Lots-style" store here as various boots & shoes from Wellco in various sizes and colors (black, jungle, desert & green) for $20-25 a pair.
;)
The costs will eventually come down.
I know the AF has authorized certain groups to continue to wear the black boots because of the work they do. So I'm sure they could do the same for us. Or even give seniors the choice. Some of those Big-Lots like stores aren't in every market.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 07:13:52 PM
BTW - you're welcome, because none you who have read this post will ever see those boots the same way again, and they will
forever be called "UGGS" in your mind's eye. Trying to not think about this will only make you think about it more!
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/mind_blown.gif)
I post one anigif and the world explodes...
Why in the world would black boots look bad with this uniform?
It appears that some think because the ABU is light color the black boots are too, well... hold on to your seat, black!
I think it is more of a case where they used the combo for a long time and are unwilling to learn a new way of doing things...
Flyer
My next question is why the OP is trolling a USAF Facebook page for CAP uniform issues.
Quote from: RiverAux on November 21, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
Why in the world would black boots look bad with this uniform?
I don't know. I think I would rather wear tan boots, which the Air Force allowed with ABUs for a while and the other services have adopted for their combat uniforms.
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 21, 2013, 08:39:37 PM
It appears that some think because the ABU is light color the black boots are too, well... hold on to your seat, black!
I think it is more of a case where they used the combo for a long time and are unwilling to learn a new way of doing things...
Flyer
The only services still wearing black boots are those with dark colored uniforms (Navy Working Uniform, Coast Guard Operational Dress Uniform). Everyone else, except for the Air Force, wears tan boots with their combat/battle dress uniforms.
Tan UGGS are nice too, all the girls in my son's middle school wear them...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SIvkQ4rbeps/Sykz6MUPtcI/AAAAAAAAAbU/iRUQ70WvBWI/s400/ugg-classic-short-chestnut.jpg)
^ Those come in black too, you know. ;)
Reminding me of the UGGG boots is painful to me...
My girlfriend used to ask them as a Christmas or birthday gift...
Flyer
Yep, seen the Navy boys 'round here wearing them. Look comfy.
(http://www.prlog.org/10431122-5825-ugg-classic-short-black.jpg)
Just because the services use tan or sage green boots with their uniforms, do we need to use tan or sage green as well?
This reminds me of a phrase learned a long time ago... Monkey see, monkey do!
We, CAP, do not have to do everything like the services... ABU is correct, with our insignias and black boots!
Flyer
Quote from: RiverAux on November 21, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
Why in the world would black boots look bad with this uniform?
Because looks count.
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 21, 2013, 09:04:22 PM
Just because the services use tan or sage green boots with their uniforms, do we need to use tan or sage green as well?
This reminds me of a phrase learned a long time ago... Monkey see, monkey do!
We, CAP, do not have to do everything like the services... ABU is correct, with our insignias and black boots!
Flyer
The same argument can be said about the ABUs. If cost is a factor, then think about this. Our supplies of used/donated black boots will eventually be replaced with used/donated sage green/tan boots. If the argument to go to ABUs is that our supplies of BDUs are becoming limited, then it also makes economic sense to move to those as well. If the reason we want ABUs is to look more like our parent service, then it also make sense to drop the black boots.
Don't get me wrong. I like black boots and think they're easier to maintain (if you don't mind shining them, which I don't). But the arguments above are still valid.
Look like does not mean look exactly alike...
Flyer
Quote from: Stonewall on November 21, 2013, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 21, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
Why in the world would black boots look bad with this uniform?
Because looks count.
They do, but so does functionality and cost, which should be the #1 & 2 considerations for CAP uniforms, with functionality being the #1.
As I said, the uniforms already going to be "broken" with the incorrect tapes and full-color insignia. No one is going to see or notice the boots.
Same goes for blousing them - unnecessary and another affectation for CAP members (and really anyone who isn't actually in knee-deep brush).
90% of our missions and everything non-ES could be done in decent street shoes. Joking aside those UGGS would actually be more appropriate for CAP
the desert or sage combat boots you can't wear anywhere else.
Quote from: Angus link=topic=18201.msg329960#msg329960
I know the AF has authorized certain groups to continue to wear the black boots because of the work they do. So I'm sure they could do the same for us. Or even give seniors the choice. Some of those Big-Lots like stores aren't in every market.
Black boots are no longer authorized with ABU regardless or AFSC they haven't been since the sage leather has been availible.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 09:18:38 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on November 21, 2013, 09:04:31 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 21, 2013, 08:35:18 PM
Why in the world would black boots look bad with this uniform?
Because looks count.
They do, but so does functionality and cost, which should be the #1 & 2 considerations for CAP uniforms, with functionality being the #1.
As I said, the uniforms already going to be "broken" with the incorrect tapes and full-color insignia. No one is going to see or notice the boots.
Same goes for blousing them - unnecessary and another affectation for CAP members (and really anyone who isn't actually in knee-deep brush).
90% of our missions and everything non-ES could be done in decent street shoes. Joking aside those UGGS would actually be more appropriate for CAP
the desert or sage combat boots you can't wear anywhere else.
You make a good argument. But then, why go to ABUs at all? They're more expensive than our current BDUs and BBDUs and don't really meet or contribute to the functionality needed for our missions, mainly GSAR and DR.
Will we be able to distinguish leather mold in our sage green leather boots...?
:-\
Flyer
Somewhere, sometime in the future, the entire idea of us having ABUs and AF style uniforms will be trashed and we will go to the BBDU and corporate, as a complete and separate entity from the AF, but with oversight by USAF.
*opens envelope*
What is the craziest idea anyone has ever had floating in their head and had the temerity to bring up on CAPTalk?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 21, 2013, 09:28:29 PM
...why go to ABUs at all? They're more expensive than our current BDUs and BBDUs and don't really meet or contribute to the functionality needed for our missions, mainly GSAR and DR.
Because BDUs will eventually be more expensive, CAP has worn a modified variation of the parent services field uniform for nearly 70 years, it's a recruiting tool, there will eventually be surplus and my favorite reason: because the organization is known as the Air Force Auxiliary.
I must be confused. I thought the Air Force Uniform was ABU with tan or sage boots. Not Black.
Just like we wear black shoes with the service dress uniform, not white.
The cost issue only exists in the mind. Just like the BDU, as soon as ABU is authorized, everyone will go out and buy the proper uniform.
We do wear the Air Force uniform dont we?
Look, it costs money to participate in life. I have 2 kids. My daughters ice skates alone were $150 and they only lasted a year before she outgrew them-bang, another $150. Then add overpriced costumes, and then her lessons....it is expensive. Way more than $25 membership and maybe $100 in uniforms CAP asks.
My son's Karate.... Uniform $30, Sparring gear $125, and that needs replaced as he grows as well. Not to mention it costs more than an annual CAP membership *each month* to participate.
If you actually talk to parents, CAP is CHEAP! At a MINIMUM You get 5 Free airplane rides (check that cost at your nearest flight school), and babysitting at least 1 weekend per month (assuming they are active). For $25. Yes for $25. Dont tell me that they cant buy a pair of boots.
That dog just dont hunt.
There you go again, trying to move a uniform topic away from uniforms into something completely different!
>:D
Flyer
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 21, 2013, 09:28:29 PMYou make a good argument. But then, why go to ABUs at all? They're more expensive than our current BDUs and BBDUs and don't really meet or contribute to the functionality needed for our missions, mainly GSAR and DR.
You also make an excellent argument. They serve zero purpose except for service affinity, and even that is partially broken by the tapes and insignia
and applicable to probably 1/2 the membership even allowed to wear them.
As for GSAR, since the camo pattern is literally an attractant, especially in a forested area, fro that perspective they are probably unintentionally better suited then
woodland BDUs, but still silly.
Blue BDUs for all is the obvious, best answer for all members, which means its adoption would never happen.
Quote from: cnitas on November 21, 2013, 09:35:29 PMWe do wear the Air Force uniform dont we?
It depends who the "we" is in that sentence - arguably less then 1/2 the adult membership is allowed to wear those combos.
Quote from: Patterson on November 21, 2013, 09:35:14 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 21, 2013, 09:28:29 PM
...why go to ABUs at all? They're more expensive than our current BDUs and BBDUs and don't really meet or contribute to the functionality needed for our missions, mainly GSAR and DR.
Because BDUs will eventually be more expensive, CAP has worn a modified variation of the parent services field uniform for nearly 70 years, it's a recruiting tool, there will eventually be surplus and my favorite reason: because the organization is known as the Air Force Auxiliary.
And those are the same arguments I would use to drop the black boots in favor of the Air Force sage green boots or, as a more economical and readily available alternative, tan boots.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 09:40:55 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 21, 2013, 09:28:29 PMYou make a good argument. But then, why go to ABUs at all? They're more expensive than our current BDUs and BBDUs and don't really meet or contribute to the functionality needed for our missions, mainly GSAR and DR.
You also make an excellent argument. They serve zero purpose except for service affinity, and even that is partially broken by the tapes and insignia
and applicable to probably 1/2 the membership even allowed to wear them.
As for GSAR, since the camo pattern is literally an attractant, especially in a forested area, fro that perspective they are probably unintentionally better suited then
woodland BDUs, but still silly.
Blue BDUs for all is the obvious, best answer for all members, which means its adoption would never happen.
+1
If someone wants to argue that the AF wears them so we should, I'm fine with that. But, you're not going to convince me that they look bad.
Quote from: vento on November 21, 2013, 07:20:10 PM
Quote from: wowcap on November 21, 2013, 02:11:47 AM
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1422455_798205756872519_2147020251_n.jpg)
Apparently on Nov. 19th the The 43d Aeromedical Evacuation Squadron hosted a retreat ceremony at Pope Army Airfield N.C. and I noticed a uniform that caught my eye. And had to share it. And I am lost for words... What do you think?
One person not following the official CAP rules does not make it ok for the rest of us to follow suit. It is not yet authorized for the general membership and that is the end of it.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
How come this guy gets a free pass in regard to his HUGE uniform violation, yet when someone wears the wrong color t-shirt everyone here is outraged?
Furthermore, the Chaplain Corps guidelines are extremely specific when it comes to CAP Chaplains assisting any military service. In fact, the Air Force had the "CAP Chaplains will only wear Air Force style uniforms" wording added to the regulation adopted following this very same incident a few years back!
This is why we can't have nice things.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 21, 2013, 09:44:43 PM
Quote from: Patterson on November 21, 2013, 09:35:14 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 21, 2013, 09:28:29 PM
...why go to ABUs at all? They're more expensive than our current BDUs and BBDUs and don't really meet or contribute to the functionality needed for our missions, mainly GSAR and DR.
Because BDUs will eventually be more expensive, CAP has worn a modified variation of the parent services field uniform for nearly 70 years, it's a recruiting tool, there will eventually be surplus and my favorite reason: because the organization is known as the Air Force Auxiliary.
And those are the same arguments I would use to drop the black boots in favor of the Air Force sage green boots or, as a more economical and readily available alternative, tan boots.
They're not going to allow sage or tan boots for one simple reason: BBDUs.
Sage or tan boots look terribad with Blue BDUs, and there's no way the NHQ is going to say "Okay, you'll need two separate pairs of boots for your field uniforms now; sage (or tan) for your ABUs, and black for your BBDUs."
And this isn't even taking the blue "CAP-distinctive" jumpsuit and flight suit into consideration, which would also look atrocious with the green/tan boots.
Pft. You think they care what the fatties wear? Have you seen the G/W service coat equivalent?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 22, 2013, 04:35:51 AM
Pft. You think they care what the fatties wear? Have you seen the G/W service coat equivalent?
You mean this horrid thing (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-jacket-with-cap-seal-ultramarine-blue-p-7840.html)?
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/0000000CAP5100_MED.jpg)
(shudders)
I think he means the realtor looking garb.
On sage vs black boots as an a cost accommodation for the BBDU wearers-
One big appeal to BBDU is boots are not required- as with the smurfsuit of old, you can wear your velcro closure old guy shoes.
Quote from: Panache on November 22, 2013, 04:28:26 AM
....
They're not going to allow sage or tan boots for one simple reason: BBDUs.
Sage or tan boots look terribad with Blue BDUs, and there's no way the NHQ is going to say "Okay, you'll need two separate pairs of boots for your field uniforms now; sage (or tan) for your ABUs, and black for your BBDUs."
......
That makes almost no sense. I dont know of many people that have both uniforms. (or if they do can wear both, ie had BDU's dont meet HW/grooming, now have BBDU)
So if you have ABU's: green if you have BBDU's: black. (or sage flight suit green or black..... Blue flightsuit/jumpsuit black) Its not that complicated.
mk
So, I was trying to visualize what you guys are discussing. Nobody said the color of the T-Shirt that we will be asked to wear. My guess is that it could be Black. With some bad photoshop, I came back with the attached picture. Is this what everybody had in mind?
That poor unsuspecting Airman has had his uniform tore up so many different ways.
People have been editing that photo for CAP discussions since about 2006.
All the energy some of you guys use to discuss uniform issues, you could use it instead to have one or two more ES specialties under your belt... and you would get it / them in under two months!
Flyer
Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2013, 12:54:10 AM
That poor unsuspecting Airman has had his uniform tore up so many different ways.
People have been editing that photo for CAP discussions since about 2006.
IIRC he is a Captain, and you were one of the first to use him for a CAP mockup back in the day.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 23, 2013, 02:04:55 AM
IIRC he is a Captain, and you were one of the first to use him for a CAP mockup back in the day.
Touche'
Quote from: sarmed1 on November 23, 2013, 12:23:36 AM
Quote from: Panache on November 22, 2013, 04:28:26 AM
....
They're not going to allow sage or tan boots for one simple reason: BBDUs.
Sage or tan boots look terribad with Blue BDUs, and there's no way the NHQ is going to say "Okay, you'll need two separate pairs of boots for your field uniforms now; sage (or tan) for your ABUs, and black for your BBDUs."
......
That makes almost no sense. I dont know of many people that have both uniforms. (or if they do can wear both, ie had BDU's dont meet HW/grooming, now have BBDU)
It doesn't have to make sense. You have to think like a bureaucrat.
Quote from: a2capt on November 22, 2013, 05:03:39 AM
I think he means the realtor looking garb.
Yes.
However, one way to make it look better (as better as that uniform
can look, anyway)
could be to use something double-breasted (and I don't mean the bloody CSU). I've read 39-1's description and several KB articles. It says
nothing about it having to be single-breasted. It talks about the pocket types (which precludes any sort of single-breasted uniform coat) but not how many buttons, cut, precise colour (just a dark blue), etc.
(http://www.tarpytailors.com//images/rsgallery/original/IMG_0213-1.jpg)
This is a civilian pilot blazer. Get rid of the sleeve braid, put the proper insignia on it (but no horrid pocket protector) and Bob's your uncle!
OK, it
may look like the Navy/airline pilot/firefighter/Merchant Marine/Captain Stubing/whatever, but I'd rather have that than the Realtor® look (no offence to Realtors®, I worked with them for several years) anytime.
Honestly, black shirts and black boots does not look bad with ABU. And the AF should have kept those aspects or at least the coyote boots.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 23, 2013, 02:09:16 AM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 23, 2013, 02:04:55 AM
IIRC he is a Captain, and you were one of the first to use him for a CAP mockup back in the day.
Touche'
Found this in my graphics library dated March 2006.
(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8577/dun3.jpg)
***COUGH*** (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0)
^^^ I like your suggestion. I'm also one of those "less is more" type. I also would like to see just one uniform for everybody.
OMG!!!!
And one wonders why the SECAF Air Force does not agree with "our" desire to wear them... :o
Why can't we go back to discussing NCOs in CAP. >:D >:D
I think it's time we take a moment and review this awesome article You're only as sharp as your creases (http://www.cadetstuff.org/you-are-only-as-sharp-as-your-creases/) to remember the "how", "why", and to help us understand what truly is important when it comes to wearing uniforms in CAP.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 24, 2013, 12:32:01 PM
I think it's time we take a moment and review this awesome article You're only as sharp as your creases (http://www.cadetstuff.org/you-are-only-as-sharp-as-your-creases/) to remember the "how", "why", and to help us understand what truly is important when it comes to wearing uniforms in CAP.
+1 I sent this article to my flight leadership, they all liked it too. This is an amazingly well written article and has a plethora of good knowledge/advice.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 24, 2013, 01:52:41 AM
***COUGH*** (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3896.0)
Can I offer you a Ricola? ;D
Seriously, I like it. I'm all for one Corporate uniform for all CAP members.
Quote from: FW on November 24, 2013, 03:43:51 AM
OMG!!!!
And one wonders why the SECAF Air Force does not agree with "our" desire to wear them... :o
Why can't we go back to discussing NCOs in CAP. >:D >:D
We could just go back to discussing the Polo uniform...
Quote from: Stonewall on November 24, 2013, 12:32:01 PM
I think it's time we take a moment and review this awesome article You're only as sharp as your creases (http://www.cadetstuff.org/you-are-only-as-sharp-as-your-creases/) to remember the "how", "why", and to help us understand what truly is important when it comes to wearing uniforms in CAP.
:clap:
Outstanding article!
Quote from: FW on November 24, 2013, 03:43:51 AM
OMG!!!!
And one wonders why the SECAF Air Force does not agree with "our" desire to wear them... :o
Why can't we go back to discussing NCOs in CAP. >:D >:D
Cite?
It is my understanding that the AF has no issue with us in ABU, but that the 2008 DoD memorandum on who is authorized uniforms with "IFF technologies" is the sticking point.
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 03:48:20 PM
Seriously, I like it. I'm all for one Corporate uniform for all CAP members.
I'm all for security personnel wearing magenta ripstop short-sleeve uniforms. Granted, I have absolutely no standing to pontificate on the subject, but I am all for it nonetheless.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2013, 09:00:51 PM
Yep, seen the Navy boys 'round here wearing them. Look comfy.
(http://www.prlog.org/10431122-5825-ugg-classic-short-black.jpg)
http://www.nomorerack.com/daily_deals/view/703282-USA_Dawgs_9%22_Cozy_Winter_Boots_-_Assorted_Colors (http://www.nomorerack.com/daily_deals/view/703282-USA_Dawgs_9%22_Cozy_Winter_Boots_-_Assorted_Colors)
You can get them off-brand for just $19! :)
If and when the ABU replaces the BDU, I hope they give us a "phase in" period, because I probably won't be able to get them right away. I also hope that they give us a warning because it would be confusing and embarrassing to walk into a squadron meeting and be the only Cadet to be wearing the BDU.
Historically uniform changes have had a 2+ yer phase in.
With that said, I still see wing patches on blues, the wrong majcom, and other long-since disavowed "stuff".
Quote from: nmkaufman0 on November 24, 2013, 05:19:25 PM
If and when the ABU replaces the BDU, I hope they give us a "phase in" period, because I probably won't be able to get them right away. I also hope that they give us a warning because it would be confusing and embarrassing to walk into a squadron meeting and be the only Cadet to be wearing the BDU.
There is usually a phase-in on major uniform changes of at least a couple of years.
Your squadron staff should keep you up-to-date on that.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 24, 2013, 05:24:34 PM
With that said, I still see wing patches on blues
Seriously? I don't recall wing patches ever being authorised for wear on the current-style blues uniform and I haven't seen a wing patch on cadets wearing the "old" blues for probably 10 years.
However, I know of one 1st Lt who still has the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape on his BDU's. I've also seen one at Group level with the MAJCOM patch with the "U.S." initalling.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 24, 2013, 05:28:05 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 24, 2013, 05:24:34 PM
With that said, I still see wing patches on blues
Seriously? I don't recall wing patches ever being authorised for wear on the current-style blues uniform and I haven't seen a wing patch on cadets wearing the "old" blues for probably 10 years.
Are you referring to the services dress coat? Because other than the coat, the blue service uniform has been unchanged for several decades, with the exception to changes in material.
Yes.
Old - four pocket "Tony Nelson"
New - current style
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 24, 2013, 04:42:59 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 03:48:20 PM
Seriously, I like it. I'm all for one Corporate uniform for all CAP members.
I'm all for security personnel wearing magenta ripstop short-sleeve uniforms. Granted, I have absolutely no standing to pontificate on the subject, but I am all for it nonetheless.
Well perhaps you should go to: https://cso.asisonline.org/Pages/default.aspx (https://cso.asisonline.org/Pages/default.aspx).
It's a forum for law enforcement and security professionals.
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
Take a look at the -current- 39-1, you will see wing patches on Blues. When that was published in 2005, everything in it was correct as stated. By the dawn of 2007, the patch was past it's sunset date. An ICL was in place.
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
No one's forcing you to be here...
Or did they already show you the door? :o
He is like a fly.
We have tried to shoo him away but he does not take the hint!
But no administrator, as far as I have seen, have told him to stay out. That is only some of the rest of us...
;)
Flyer
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
I don't think the problem is that you're not welcome here; you certainly are. The problem is that you have lots of opinions and "solutions" about things you know very little about. I'm sure you have plenty of experience in the areas that you're involved with, but not so much in CAP, yet you speak like an expert who knows exactly what's "wrong" and what we need to do to "fix" it. That, obviously, may rub off some the wrong way.
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 24, 2013, 06:33:38 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
I don't think the problem is that you're not welcome here; you certainly are. The problem is that you have lots of opinions and "solutions" about things you know very little about. I'm sure you have plenty of experience in the areas that you're involved with, but not so much in CAP, yet you speak like an expert who knows exactly what's "wrong" and what we need to do to "fix" it. That, obviously, may rub off some the wrong way.
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
Well stated.
I guess the point I was trying to make was the same point that Theodore Roosevelt made in a speech in Paris over 103 years ago when he said in pertinent part:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. I think most of us would welcome you to step into the arena with us and help us push to improve the program rather than watch from the outside and post opinions as a pastime from the drudgery of your work day.
Don't judge an organization until you've walked a mile or two in its' shoes.
Quote from: PHall on November 24, 2013, 06:08:40 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
No one's forcing you to be here...
Or did they already show you the door? :o
I have not violated any rule or terms of service of CAPTalk, so I have done nothing to get myself banned or suspended from the forum.
Just because you (and others) don't like my posts and/or suggestions doesn't mean you just get to kick me out. ;)
I will continue to voice my opinions in a respectful manner, feel free to continue to ignoring them if you like. ;D
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 24, 2013, 06:17:58 PM
He is like a fly.
We have tried to shoo him away but he does not take the hint!
But no administrator, as far as I have seen, have told him to stay out. That is only some of the rest of us...
;)
Flyer
And good day to you as well. :-*
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 24, 2013, 06:33:38 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
I don't think the problem is that you're not welcome here; you certainly are. The problem is that you have lots of opinions and "solutions" about things you know very little about. I'm sure you have plenty of experience in the areas that you're involved with, but not so much in CAP, yet you speak like an expert who knows exactly what's "wrong" and what we need to do to "fix" it. That, obviously, may rub off some the wrong way.
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
Well sometimes being outside, looking in is a good thing; being "inside" sometimes means being too close to a problem.
Most of my posts are about uniforms as oppose to say ESO, Cadet safety or Aerospace Education (which I really know nothing about) because I wear a uniform and have for over 20 plus years wearing one.
So while I have never worn a CAP or USAF uniform I can make some general observations about them and I can read the various posts here and get a general feel of what CAP members are thinking about their own uniforms.
I then offer some recommendations for discussion.
Not saying I'm right... just offering discussion.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 24, 2013, 06:33:38 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
I don't think the problem is that you're not welcome here; you certainly are. The problem is that you have lots of opinions and "solutions" about things you know very little about. I'm sure you have plenty of experience in the areas that you're involved with, but not so much in CAP, yet you speak like an expert who knows exactly what's "wrong" and what we need to do to "fix" it. That, obviously, may rub off some the wrong way.
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
This is what I and others have been saying for awhile.
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on November 24, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 24, 2013, 06:33:38 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
I don't think the problem is that you're not welcome here; you certainly are. The problem is that you have lots of opinions and "solutions" about things you know very little about. I'm sure you have plenty of experience in the areas that you're involved with, but not so much in CAP, yet you speak like an expert who knows exactly what's "wrong" and what we need to do to "fix" it. That, obviously, may rub off some the wrong way.
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
Well stated.
I guess the point I was trying to make was the same point that Theodore Roosevelt made in a speech in Paris over 103 years ago when he said in pertinent part:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
I think most of us would welcome you to step into the arena with us and help us push to improve the program rather than watch from the outside and post opinions as a pastime from the drudgery of your work day.
And when I have a little more freedom in my schedule, I most likely will.
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 24, 2013, 08:10:14 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 24, 2013, 06:33:38 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
They welcome outside viewpoints and ideas. Unlike some forums I visit. ;)
I don't think the problem is that you're not welcome here; you certainly are. The problem is that you have lots of opinions and "solutions" about things you know very little about. I'm sure you have plenty of experience in the areas that you're involved with, but not so much in CAP, yet you speak like an expert who knows exactly what's "wrong" and what we need to do to "fix" it. That, obviously, may rub off some the wrong way.
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
This is what I and others have been saying for awhile.
If I rubbed you (or anyone else for that matter) the wrong way, that was not my intent. If I did, I apologize.
Take it somewhere else. Create a new thread for it.
Quote from: shuman14 on November 24, 2013, 08:09:27 PM
Most of my posts are about uniforms as oppose to say ESO, Cadet safety or Aerospace Education (which I really know nothing about) because I wear a uniform and have for over 20 plus years wearing one.
So while I have never worn a CAP or USAF uniform I can make some general observations about them and I can read the various posts here and get a general feel of what CAP members are thinking about their own uniforms.
I then offer some recommendations for discussion.
Not saying I'm right... just offering discussion.
It's not that we don't appreciate your opinions or service, but I'm sure you know that each uniformed service have different views, history, culture and implementation when it comes to the uniform. For example, the Army service dress uniform is "adorned" with insignias in a way you will never see an Air Force uniform. Is the Army wrong? Is the Air Force? Neither is; they're just different and you can't expect to apply the traditions of one to the other.
As someone who has been wearing a CAP and/or USAF uniform for over 26 years, I can tell you that one of the possible reasons we have many more insignias (colors aside) on the CAP uniform than the USAF uniform is probably because of the influence of CAP members from other services. Just look at the reverse American flag on our BDUs (clearly based on the Army uniform, not the Air Force's). Regardless, CAP has a long history of why its uniform is the way it is. Without that history and background, it would very difficult to understand the constant debates about our uniform. Sorry, but the fact that you've worn the Marine Corps, Army or Coast Guard uniforms is irrelevant in CAP and to our discussions.
Perhaps you should spend more time asking questions and learning about CAP so that if you ever decide to change to an active status, you can "hit the ground running" and be a true contributor to our organization. We have plenty of opinions about uniforms from our active members. While you're entitled to your own uniform opinions, they're just not adding anything of value to our discussions.
(
edited for grammar)
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 24, 2013, 06:33:38 PM
We may have differences of opinion here and our debates can sometimes be intense, but in the end we know that everyone here is an active CAP member, working hard to make things better for CAP. And that's the bottom line; we need people that are willing to work, not just pay a check once a year. That's the challenge, isn't it?
Except that I must be truthful and say that I, due to some intense family/personal issues going on, am kind of in "limbo" regarding my membership right now.
God willing, after the first of the year, I will be able to be active again, maybe in a different unit, but right now I just have too much on my plate.
As usual I see the welcoming attitudes , the warm regards and the gentle encouragements of some and the childish boys club attitudes in others. If these attitudes are what cadets are exposed to then the program is in more trouble that some have pointed out. Sme folks need to get over themselves and they know who they are.
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 12:20:55 AM
As usual I see the welcoming attitudes , the warm regards and the gentle encouragements of some and the childish boys club attitudes in others. If these attitudes are what cadets are exposed to then the program is in more trouble that some have pointed out. Sme folks need to get over themselves and they know who they are.
No one has been childish. If fact present pain, the internet is not somewhere to spend time.
The light of day and straight talk is what cadets should be hearing more in this day of bubble-wrapped kids and PC-laden speech.
Uninformed opinions from people with no skin in the game are not welcome.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2013, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 12:20:55 AM
As usual I see the welcoming attitudes , the warm regards and the gentle encouragements of some and the childish boys club attitudes in others. If these attitudes are what cadets are exposed to then the program is in more trouble that some have pointed out. Sme folks need to get over themselves and they know who they are.
No one has been childish. If fact present pain, the internet is not somewhere to spend time.
The light of day and straight talk is what cadets should be hearing more in this day of bubble-wrapped kids and PC-laden speech.
Uninformed opinions from people with no skin in the game are not welcome.
I think you are both right. Some people need to develop a thicker skin, and sometimes people tend to dogpile on others. Just my two cents.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2013, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 12:20:55 AM
As usual I see the welcoming attitudes , the warm regards and the gentle encouragements of some and the childish boys club attitudes in others. If these attitudes are what cadets are exposed to then the program is in more trouble that some have pointed out. Sme folks need to get over themselves and they know who they are.
No one has been childish. If fact present pain, the internet is not somewhere to spend time.
The light of day and straight talk is what cadets should be hearing more in this day of bubble-wrapped kids and PC-laden speech.
Uninformed opinions from people with no skin in the game are not welcome.
And my point is proven, thank you.
Quote from: TexasCadet on November 25, 2013, 01:10:00 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2013, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 12:20:55 AM
As usual I see the welcoming attitudes , the warm regards and the gentle encouragements of some and the childish boys club attitudes in others. If these attitudes are what cadets are exposed to then the program is in more trouble that some have pointed out. Sme folks need to get over themselves and they know who they are.
No one has been childish. If fact present pain, the internet is not somewhere to spend time.
The light of day and straight talk is what cadets should be hearing more in this day of bubble-wrapped kids and PC-laden speech.
Uninformed opinions from people with no skin in the game are not welcome.
I think you are both right. Some people need to develop a thicker skin, and sometimes people tend to dogpile on others. Just my two cents.
Having a thick skin serves many folks well, the dogpile disease is prevalent on many web sites when you get a number of members that have been contributing for a long time. The problem with the those that know it all is that they alienate new members, discourage new ideas regardless if they are not new to everyone else and some seem to point out why any new idea won't work based upon previous failures.
That old saying that their are no stupid questions has some basis in fact when you have a wide audience. Those that have lost their prospective tend to attack others just because new folks bring up ideas and suggestions even though they have been discussed to death by earlier members. When as sight reaches that stage it doesn't really serve its original purpose which is to have open discussions, share knowleged and guid other new members down the path hopefully avoiding some of the mistakes that we all make.
As for me I'd don't get butt hurt or hurt feelings, I only have one feeling left and I can't remember where I left it, I blame old age and prior service brainwashing.
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 01:31:10 AM
Quote from: TexasCadet on November 25, 2013, 01:10:00 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2013, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 12:20:55 AM
As usual I see the welcoming attitudes , the warm regards and the gentle encouragements of some and the childish boys club attitudes in others. If these attitudes are what cadets are exposed to then the program is in more trouble that some have pointed out. Sme folks need to get over themselves and they know who they are.
No one has been childish. If fact present pain, the internet is not somewhere to spend time.
The light of day and straight talk is what cadets should be hearing more in this day of bubble-wrapped kids and PC-laden speech.
Uninformed opinions from people with no skin in the game are not welcome.
I think you are both right. Some people need to develop a thicker skin, and sometimes people tend to dogpile on others. Just my two cents.
Having a thick skin serves many folks well, the dogpile disease is prevalent on many web sites when you get a number of members that have been contributing for a long time. The problem with the those that know it all is that they alienate new members, discourage new ideas regardless if they are not new to everyone else and some seem to point out why any new idea won't work based upon previous failures.
That old saying that their are no stupid questions has some basis in fact when you have a wide audience. Those that have lost their prospective tend to attack others just because new folks bring up ideas and suggestions even though they have been discussed to death by earlier members. When as sight reaches that stage it doesn't really serve its original purpose which is to have open discussions, share knowleged and guid other new members down the path hopefully avoiding some of the mistakes that we all make.
As for me I'd don't get butt hurt or hurt feelings, I only have one feeling left and I can't remember where I left it, I blame old age and prior service brainwashing.
+0.5
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 01:31:10 AM
Having a thick skin serves many folks well, the dogpile disease is prevalent on many web sites when you get a number of members that have been contributing for a long time. The problem with the those that know it all is that they alienate new members, discourage new ideas regardless if they are not new to everyone else and some seem to point out why any new idea won't work based upon previous failures.
That old saying that their are no stupid questions has some basis in fact when you have a wide audience. Those that have lost their prospective tend to attack others just because new folks bring up ideas and suggestions even though they have been discussed to death by earlier members. When as sight reaches that stage it doesn't really serve its original purpose which is to have open discussions, share knowleged and guid other new members down the path hopefully avoiding some of the mistakes that we all make.
As for me I'd don't get butt hurt or hurt feelings, I only have one feeling left and I can't remember where I left it, I blame old age and prior service brainwashing.
I will have to disagree on some aspects. Unfortunately real life is blunt, to the point, not sugar coated and just down right mean. Kids need a thick skin and unfortunately this social view of everyone is a winner and gets a trophy is counterproductive.
There is discouraging new ideas and it does happen, but that is life. New members being alienated, shunned or leaving especially on this board from what I have seen has been based on how that new member has acted and the whole sense of self entitlement. That and the view of my opinion matters irregardless if I have a dog in the fight or not is what stirs the reactions seen.
I debated with another member on AKO when they had their blogs about allowing soldiers to carry to protect themselves and others in the aftermath of the Ft Hood shooting in 2009. This party knew nothing of the law, use of force, and had never been in a position to take another's life.
New ideas from new members and those in their lane are readily respected and looked into in all walks of life. It's when you get those who know nothing about an organization or process and doesn't stay in their is when issues arrive. And unfortunately sometimes it takes many people saying the same thing for it to sink in.
There is dog-piling and then there is people saying the same-thing to the same person who just doesn't/didn't get it. Its like mentor-ship you can only try so long before they get it, accept it, or move on.
Quote from: Panache on November 25, 2013, 02:03:59 AM
Quote from: TexasCadet on November 25, 2013, 01:35:01 AM
+0.5
Only .5?
Man, this is a tough crowd.
I agreed with part of what he said. (To be more accurate, I should have put down 0.5631794269963157854468545678995367532. ;D)
Quote from: TexasCadet on November 25, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
I agreed with part of what he said. (To be more accurate, I should have put down 0.5631794269963157854468545678995367532. ;D)
Wouldn't that be 0.6 then?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 25, 2013, 02:14:44 AM
Quote from: TexasCadet on November 25, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
I agreed with part of what he said. (To be more accurate, I should have put down 0.5631794269963157854468545678995367532. ;D)
Wouldn't that be 0.6 then?
Like I said: tough crowd.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on November 25, 2013, 02:14:44 AM
Quote from: TexasCadet on November 25, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
I agreed with part of what he said. (To be more accurate, I should have put down 0.5631794269963157854468545678995367532. ;D)
Wouldn't that be 0.6 then?
I hate rounding.
Geesh.. I step away for two years and it's like it was yesterday...
:D
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 25, 2013, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 01:31:10 AM
Having a thick skin serves many folks well, the dogpile disease is prevalent on many web sites when you get a number of members that have been contributing for a long time. The problem with the those that know it all is that they alienate new members, discourage new ideas regardless if they are not new to everyone else and some seem to point out why any new idea won't work based upon previous failures.
That old saying that their are no stupid questions has some basis in fact when you have a wide audience. Those that have lost their prospective tend to attack others just because new folks bring up ideas and suggestions even though they have been discussed to death by earlier members. When as sight reaches that stage it doesn't really serve its original purpose which is to have open discussions, share knowleged and guid other new members down the path hopefully avoiding some of the mistakes that we all make.
As for me I'd don't get butt hurt or hurt feelings, I only have one feeling left and I can't remember where I left it, I blame old age and prior service brainwashing.
I will have to disagree on some aspects. Unfortunately real life is blunt, to the point, not sugar coated and just down right mean. Kids need a thick skin and unfortunately this social view of everyone is a winner and gets a trophy is counterproductive.
There is discouraging new ideas and it does happen, but that is life. New members being alienated, shunned or leaving especially on this board from what I have seen has been based on how that new member has acted and the whole sense of self entitlement. That and the view of my opinion matters irregardless if I have a dog in the fight or not is what stirs the reactions seen.
I debated with another member on AKO when they had their blogs about allowing soldiers to carry to protect themselves and others in the aftermath of the Ft Hood shooting in 2009. This party knew nothing of the law, use of force, and had never been in a position to take another's life.
New ideas from new members and those in their lane are readily respected and looked into in all walks of life. It's when you get those who know nothing about an organization or process and doesn't stay in their is when issues arrive. And unfortunately sometimes it takes many people saying the same thing for it to sink in.
There is dog-piling and then there is people saying the same-thing to the same person who just doesn't/didn't get it. Its like mentor-ship you can only try so long before they get it, accept it, or move on.
While yes real life is blunt, it's more productive to have a crawl, walk and run to get maximum return on investment. The dog in the fight, skin in the game mindset disregards actual helpfully information which may not be totally in sink with CAP but you can get a few nuggets of usefull info either way.
I won't get into that mess that is AKO let alone that waste of bandwidth know as the AKO forum. As for the dog piling is seems in. Opinion right or wrong that it's the usual suspects with the snarky, smug and self righteous mindset. Mentor ship requires actually giving a rats a$$ about mentoring and producing a quality recruit.
While I am what we used to call a Cherry as far as CAP is concerned I am open to learning and always seek new knowledge I also have decades of experience in a few skills that are applicable in CAP. I can also spot BS artist from a mile away.
Quote from: Patterson on November 21, 2013, 09:35:14 PM
... and my favorite reason: because the organization is known as the Air Force Auxiliary.
We're now "an" auxiliary,
on occasion. Most of the time, we are not.
Quote from: Mustang on November 25, 2013, 05:18:14 AM
Quote from: Patterson on November 21, 2013, 09:35:14 PM
... and my favorite reason: because the organization is known as the Air Force Auxiliary.
We're now "an" auxiliary, on occasion. Most of the time, we are not.
NO..NO...NO....NO......we are ALWAYS the Offical Auxillary of the USAF. We are only sometimes an instrument of the government and covered by Federal Tort Protection and Federal Workers Compensations on occasion.
Let's not continue that myth.
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/clock1.gif)
QuoteWhile yes real life is blunt, it's more productive to have a crawl, walk and run to get maximum return on investment.
Following the posts in questions there hasnt been a crawl, walk run; thats the point of butt hurt apparently going on. In this instance an accurate analogy would be listen/learn, question, suggest. No matter what the organization, I have seen
0 (paid or volunteer) that gracefully and happily accept the blunt criticism and suggestions of change from the new guy.... it doesnt matter if that new guy is the peon or the CEO (or anywhere in between), even if the assessment is accurate. CAP in generally (and especially this forum) is no different.
my 2 cents
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on November 25, 2013, 01:43:48 PM
QuoteWhile yes real life is blunt, it's more productive to have a crawl, walk and run to get maximum return on investment.
Following the posts in questions there hasnt been a crawl, walk run; thats the point of butt hurt apparently going on. In this instance an accurate analogy would be listen/learn, question, suggest. No matter what the organization, I have seen 0 (paid or volunteer) that gracefully and happily accept the blunt criticism and suggestions of change from the new guy.... it doesnt matter if that new guy is the peon or the CEO (or anywhere in between), even if the assessment is accurate. CAP in generally (and especially this forum) is no different.
my 2 cents
mk
That why I can't understand a vollunteer organization going out of its way to alienate folks for daring to challenge the status quo. While I do believe many of the issue can be traced to that saying " a solution looking for a problem " change will come both good and bad and you either adjust or get run over.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 24, 2013, 05:28:05 PMHowever, I know of one 1st Lt who still has the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tape on his BDU's. I've also seen one at Group level with the MAJCOM patch with the "U.S." initalling.
I still see numerous flight suits that still have the round seal on them. In most of these cases the uniform complied with regulations at the time it was assembled and then never updated.
Tick tock... can't stop the lock clock! ;D
Quote from: DennisH on November 25, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
Quote from: sarmed1 on November 25, 2013, 01:43:48 PM
QuoteWhile yes real life is blunt, it's more productive to have a crawl, walk and run to get maximum return on investment.
Following the posts in questions there hasnt been a crawl, walk run; thats the point of butt hurt apparently going on. In this instance an accurate analogy would be listen/learn, question, suggest. No matter what the organization, I have seen 0 (paid or volunteer) that gracefully and happily accept the blunt criticism and suggestions of change from the new guy.... it doesnt matter if that new guy is the peon or the CEO (or anywhere in between), even if the assessment is accurate. CAP in generally (and especially this forum) is no different.
my 2 cents
mk
That why I can't understand a vollunteer organization going out of its way to alienate folks for daring to challenge the status quo. While I do believe many of the issue can be traced to that saying " a solution looking for a problem " change will come both good and bad and you either adjust or get run over.
I'm sure the majority of us here in CAP Talk and CAP in general do not wish to alienate anyone. For that reason, I'm trying to make sense of your last few posts.
Can you please provide a specific example from this tread to what you're referring to as "the status quo" in CAP? Can you also give a specific example in which someone was "alienated" for challenging this status quo you refer to? Finally, can you clarify what was the "challenge" made that caused this individual to allegedly being alienated?
Thank you.