Hey folks
I'm looking to join CAP in the near future, attempting to get in touch with a couple squadrons nearby. I figure its a way to "do my part", a great way to volunteer. I previously enlisted in the Marine Corps, but was sent home from Parris Island due to a small, insignificant medical issue (Got blown out of proportion, but with the downsizing happening, I understand it).
Anyway, I'm a former 4-year Navy JROTC cadet, and now I'm looking for a way to continue sort of volunteering, helping out, and I believe CAP will be able to be an excellent medium for that.
What uniform(s) would I have to acquire immediately, to participate in most activities? I was thinking it may be the short sleeve blue, maybe long sleeve with the tie. However, how often is it that senior members find themselves in the position wearing BDU's for example? The same could be said about the full Service Dress uniform with coat. We don't even need to discuss mess dress.
Thanks
The answer to that depends mostly on the unit selected, however:
Short sleeve blues is one choice of the "basic" uniform that you're required to have. BDU's are optional, though statistically may be worn more often.
The short sleeve service uniform (blue Air Force-style or white Aviator shirt with gray pants) is required by regulation as the basic CAP uniform, but many senior members get by with other corporate uniforms such as the CAP Golf shirt with gray pants combination. Woodland BDUs or corporate blue BDUs are used for field operations and training. Flight suits (green or blue) can be used for flying, but are not required.
Once you join, check with your unit. They may have a supply of used, but serviceable BDUs that may be issued. That said, senior members tend to purchase most uniforms they wear. Checking with your unit will also give you an idea of which uniforms they normally wear. A set of service uniform and BDUs should be enough for most circumstances.
Quote from: Xasmoth1650 on October 25, 2013, 04:08:24 AM
What uniform(s) would I have to acquire immediately, to participate in most activities? I was thinking it may be the short sleeve blue, maybe long sleeve with the tie. However, how often is it that senior members find themselves in the position wearing BDU's for example? The same could be said about the full Service Dress uniform with coat. We don't even need to discuss mess dress.
The answer will depend on the types of activities you want to participate in. By regulation, you must acquire a set of short sleeve blues, so start your list there.
If you're going to be involved in ground emergency services, a field uniform (BDUs or BBDUs) is a must.
If you're going to work with cadets, a field uniform is a good idea (says the guy with no usable field uniform in the closet) so you can dress like they do.
If you want to fly, get a flight suit.
The bottom line is to find the unit that works for you and then stock your closet to support the activities that interest you.
The vast majority of time, I wear the polo shirt-and-gray-pants combination. Occasionally I'll wear my BBDU's (Blue BDU's) at a meeting or during a field exercise.
I can count the number of times I've worn the "corporate" uniform (white aviator shirt and gray pants) on one hand.
Attend a couple of meetings with your local Squadron and ask the Squadron CC or Deputy Commander of Seniors what uniform will be expected of you. Each Squadron is different, really.
To join, it doesn't matter. A uniform is required if working with cadets or in a corporate vehicle. You'll learn a lot more about the uniforms as you go through the initial training and your unit will instruct you as to what they expect.
Money is often a consideration, so I have an order that has worked pretty well. I always suggest starting with the polo and gray slacks. This uniform is appropriate when the uniform of the day is BDUs or Blues (in other words, 90% of the time). From there, get the aviator shirt/blues uniform unless you plan on doing Emergency Services training right away, in which case push to get the field uniform. Keep in mind that your initial training will take at least three weeks unless they have a day workshop and you won't be able to begin ES training until that is completed.
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
What regulation would that be?
Quote from: NC Hokie on October 25, 2013, 04:30:06 AM
Quote from: Xasmoth1650 on October 25, 2013, 04:08:24 AM
What uniform(s) would I have to acquire immediately, to participate in most activities? I was thinking it may be the short sleeve blue, maybe long sleeve with the tie. However, how often is it that senior members find themselves in the position wearing BDU's for example? The same could be said about the full Service Dress uniform with coat. We don't even need to discuss mess dress.
The answer will depend on the types of activities you want to participate in. By regulation, you must acquire a set of short sleeve blues, so start your list there.
If you're going to be involved in ground emergency services, a field uniform (BDUs or BBDUs) is a must.
If you're going to work with cadets, a field uniform is a good idea (says the guy with no usable field uniform in the closet) so you can dress like they do.
If you want to fly, get a flight suit.
The bottom line is to find the unit that works for you and then stock your closet to support the activities that interest you.
What regulation requires the service uniform?
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
What regulation would that be?
The one quoted here hundreds of times, listing the minimum uniform.
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:42:26 PM
What regulation requires the service uniform?
Not to derail this thread too far, but this right here is the number one problem with uniforms in CAP.
Quote from: NC Hokie on October 25, 2013, 04:30:06 AM
Quote from: Xasmoth1650 on October 25, 2013, 04:08:24 AM
What uniform(s) would I have to acquire immediately, to participate in most activities? I was thinking it may be the short sleeve blue, maybe long sleeve with the tie. However, how often is it that senior members find themselves in the position wearing BDU's for example? The same could be said about the full Service Dress uniform with coat. We don't even need to discuss mess dress.
By regulation, you must acquire a set of short sleeve blues, so start your list there.
Or aviator white and greys.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
What regulation would that be?
The one quoted here hundreds of times, listing the minimum uniform.
Quote it again, just so I'm clear.
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
What regulation would that be?
The one quoted here hundreds of times, listing the minimum uniform.
Quote it again, just so I'm clear.
A Major assigned to a wing HQ? See first part of the post above yours.
CAP Major in your signature? And you have not read that the current
39-1 requires you to acquire the AF Blue service uniform or the Grey/White?
Quote
Section 1-5. Uniform Combinations.
Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below....
a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform.
Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks....
Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag....
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform
(senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks... Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks....
Flyer
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 02:01:45 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:50:27 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 01:41:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
What regulation would that be?
The one quoted here hundreds of times, listing the minimum uniform.
Quote it again, just so I'm clear.
A Major assigned to a wing HQ? See first part of the post above yours.
Thanks for the nonanswer.
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 02:04:57 PM
CAP Major in your signature? And you have not read that the current 39-1 requires you to acquire the AF Blue service uniform or the Grey/White?
Quote
Section 1-5. Uniform Combinations.
Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below....
a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform.
Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks....
Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag....
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform
(senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks... Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks....
Flyer
I asked a questions as to where it would be found, and ended up getting treated like I was asking for launch codes. Sue me, I don't have the book memorized chapter and verse.
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 02:13:36 PM
I asked a questions as to where it would be found, and ended up getting treated like I was asking for launch codes. Sue me, I don't have the book memorized chapter and verse.
Actually, you were being treated like someone who has never touched 39-1 despite holding the rank of Major and being in a HQ unit.
When you join an organization there are a few things you are expected to learn. If you work for a city government, don't you learn about the rules and regulations that govern it?
I work as a teacher for the New York City Dept of Ed. I do not know all their publications but I do know that I am a mandated reporter. I know I am required to have a lesson plan. I know where to find some other things.
If you are a Major, you should have learned by now there are several regulations on what to wear. On how to write letters and memos. And others.
I would have expected a senior member without Level I not knowing these basic items, not a Major.
Flyer
Quote from: THRAWN on October 25, 2013, 02:13:36 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 02:04:57 PM
CAP Major in your signature? And you have not read that the current 39-1 requires you to acquire the AF Blue service uniform or the Grey/White?
Quote
Section 1-5. Uniform Combinations.
Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below....
a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform.
Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks....
Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag....
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform
(senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks... Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks....
Flyer
I asked a questions as to where it would be found, and ended up getting treated like I was asking for launch codes. Sue me, I don't have the book memorized chapter and verse.
Is CAPM 39-1 Section 1-5 clear enough?
We don't expect anybody to have all the regs memorized, but really, not having the slightest clue about how the regs are numbered? ???
Is CAPM 39-1 Section 1-5 clear enough?
We don't expect anybody to have all the regs memorized, but really, not having the slightest clue about how the regs are numbered? ???
[/quote]
Yes, thank you. I never said I didn't know how the regs were numbered, or even how to read them. I asked 2 questions. The first was what reg required members to obtain the blue service short sleeve. Answer: it doesn't. It's either the short sleeve blue OR corp grays. The second was where it was a violation of the regs to suggest/recommend the polo. Got the answer to that too.
I've been inactive for a bit, and getting back into the swing of things, there are some things that I've forgotten. I could walk around spouting off bits of incorrect or erroneous info, but instead of doing that, I decided to ask where that info could be found. We are all leaders, we are all educator in one form or another, and instead of acting like all info is something that everyone should know, take into consideration that there may be circumstances that you're unaware of and use it as a teachable moment for all hands.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
Where in CAPM 39-1 does it say that you can't purchase the polo uniform FIRST?
"Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform."
I don't see the word FIRST in there anywhere.
Brand new senior member is given a polo at meeting #1 after joining and owns grey slacks. He wears it to meeeting #2 during which he discusses everything that is required for the minimum basic uniform. Over the next 3 weeks he waits for the order to be delivered, then an additional week for the tailoring to be completed.
By your interpretation of the regulation/manual he has been out of compliance with the regulations for more than a month.
Don't mean to split hairs here but I HAVE seen this very case more than once.
By the letter of CAPM 39-1 if the member shows a good faith effort then he is in compliance by equipping himself with the basic uniform even if it takes him some time to do so AND he owns a polo shirt that did not take any time to obtain.
How exactly is someone to be made to prove they have a "basic service uniform"?
Is the squadron commander going to get a search warrant and come to your house to see if it's in the closet?
If it is not in 39-1, it is not permitted. Plain and simple!
Instead of making your own regulations, follow what is written!
This is the number 1 problem.
I do not like the answer, I will do what I like.
If people do that, why the heck do we have laws?
I do not like how long that red light lasts, my interpretation is I will obey it for 10 seconds then I will treat it like a yellow light. Etc.
Flyer
Uniform wear varies greatly from squadron to squadron. In my short 5 years as CAP member, I've worn the "basic" uniform a grand total of 7 times in order to attend SLS and later on CLC and conferences, one time was when the squadron commander decided to have everybody dress up a bit and made the UOD "basic" and 90% showed up in the white and grey and two showed up in the USAF style. Our UOD is always the Golf shirt with the basic as an option.
Quote from: JeffDG on October 25, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
How exactly is someone to be made to prove they have a "basic service uniform"?
Have UOD once a month of that combo, and / or require it be worn before level I is approved.
The very fact that thousands of members are completely unaware of the MBU, or think it's the golf shirt, and
that a large percentage of units never publish a UOD or wear anything but the golf shirt, shows just how disconnected
we are as an organization, and how far we have to go before we'll even get to baseline in this regard.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 03:22:25 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
Polo should never be a starting uniform. It is against regulations. Also, members should never be encouraged to get a polo.
Where in CAPM 39-1 does it say that you can't purchase the polo uniform FIRST?
"Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform."
I don't see the word FIRST in there anywhere.
Brand new senior member is given a polo at meeting #1 after joining and owns grey slacks. He wears it to meeeting #2 during which he discusses everything that is required for the minimum basic uniform. Over the next 3 weeks he waits for the order to be delivered, then an additional week for the tailoring to be completed.
By your interpretation of the regulation/manual he has been out of compliance with the regulations for more than a month.
Don't mean to split hairs here but I HAVE seen this very case more than once.
By the letter of CAPM 39-1 if the member shows a good faith effort then he is in compliance by equipping himself with the basic uniform even if it takes him some time to do so AND he owns a polo shirt that did not take any time to obtain.
No one HAS to have a polo. They DO need blues or G/Ws. Thus, you're going to tell a member to buy TWO uniforms. If I need to get G/Ws, then why would I get a polo first? Get the aviator shirt, call it a day. If a member later wants a polo, fine. But treating the polo as the go to right off the bat is a disservice to the member.
What unit is "giving" a member a golf shirt at the first meeting?
And seriously, the issue isn't "I ordered it." This issue is "no one told me", or "told me the golf shirt was all I needed".
The golf shirt is an optional item, the MBU isn't.
Also, what kind of tailoring is happening on the MBU, especially if they already have gray slacks? Cuffing the pants?
That's a couple-day proposition.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 08:33:48 AM
To join, it doesn't matter. A uniform is required if working with cadets or in a corporate vehicle.
Corporate aircraft yes; vehicles, no.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 04:33:18 PM
What unit is "giving" a member a golf shirt at the first meeting?
And seriously, the issue isn't "I ordered it." This issue is "no one told me", or "told me the golf shirt was all I needed".
The golf shirt is an optional item, the MBU isn't.
Also, what kind of tailoring is happening on the MBU, especially if they already have gray slacks? Cuffing the pants?
That's a couple-day proposition.
My unit has had and given away polo shirts.
I wouldn't have mentioned it if there wasn't an instance I knew of offhand.
And we are changing the issue here.
The statement was made that starting with the polo shirt combination was against regulations.
I challenge that it is not. While it is clearly stated that it is the members responsibility to equip themselves with the MBU there is no set time limit, no order of required purchase and nothing that says a member can't spend their first 6 months (should they want to) in a Polo Shirt combo..... even longer if they don't mind holding up their own first promotion.
I've always been told that a MBU is required to pass Level 1.
Honest question; Can someone point me to a regulatory source as a cite for that requirement?
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
Seriously?
If you walk the regs, the only thing a new member should be aware of is the MBU, anything else is injecting yourself in the process.
No time limit? Really?
This is why we're in such a mess, because people get themselves all wrapped around the axle trying to find 12 ways to avoid just
doing what they know they are supposed to.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
And units skipping this step is why so many SMs looks so jacked up in uniform.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 05:06:22 PM
Seriously?
If you walk the regs, the only thing a new member should be aware of is the MBU, anything else is injecting yourself in the process.
No time limit? Really?
This is why we're in such a mess, because people get themselves all wrapped around the axle trying to find 12 ways to avoid just
doing what they know they are supposed to.
Am I wrong?
If so, please provide proof.
Telling a member that they can not buy a polo shirt combo, an optional - approved uniform, BEFORE they complete either approved MBU is injecting yourself into the process.
This is why we are in such a mess, because people get themselves all wrapped around regulatory requirements that do NOT exist.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
And units skipping this step is why so many SMs looks so jacked up in uniform.
That section of my post was an honest question.
I'm looking for a completed basic uniform, in the regulations, as a requirement for completing level 1.
I believe it to be the case.... I truly do.
I just couldn't find it.
If it isn't then it should be and hopefully will be in upcoming reg revisions.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
And units skipping this step is why so many SMs looks so jacked up in uniform.
That section of my post was an honest question.
I'm looking for a completed basic uniform, in the regulations, as a requirement for completing level 1.
I believe it to be the case.... I truly do.
I just couldn't find it.
And I'm honestly wondering why that line alone isn't enough. It's going to be mighty hard to "wear the uniform properly" for their level 1 if they don't have it.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:22:07 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
And units skipping this step is why so many SMs looks so jacked up in uniform.
That section of my post was an honest question.
I'm looking for a completed basic uniform, in the regulations, as a requirement for completing level 1.
I believe it to be the case.... I truly do.
I just couldn't find it.
And I'm honestly wondering why that line alone isn't enough. It's going to be mighty hard to "wear the uniform properly" for their level 1 if they don't have it.
You do not have to own a uniform to describe it's correct wear.
Also... "Should Be" is an awfully wishy-washy way for a regulation to say "must"
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:22:07 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
And units skipping this step is why so many SMs looks so jacked up in uniform.
That section of my post was an honest question.
I'm looking for a completed basic uniform, in the regulations, as a requirement for completing level 1.
I believe it to be the case.... I truly do.
I just couldn't find it.
And I'm honestly wondering why that line alone isn't enough. It's going to be mighty hard to "wear the uniform properly" for their level 1 if they don't have it.
You do not have to own a uniform to describe it's correct wear.
Also... "Should Be" is an awfully wishy-washy way for a regulation to say "must"
It's not asking to describe uniform wear, it's asking for uniform wear.
As for should, I'm not a native born English speaker, but this is how I see this word in my day to day use:
should (sh(http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oobreve.gif)d)
aux.v. Past tense of shall
1. Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.
2. Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon.
3. Used to express conditionality or contingency: If she should fall, then so would I.
4. Used to moderate the directness or bluntness of a statement: I should think he would like to go.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:27:34 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:24:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:22:07 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:20:17 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 05:02:14 PM
I don't see anything more than "Should be able to wear the uniform properly" in the completion of Level 1 section of 50-17.
And units skipping this step is why so many SMs looks so jacked up in uniform.
That section of my post was an honest question.
I'm looking for a completed basic uniform, in the regulations, as a requirement for completing level 1.
I believe it to be the case.... I truly do.
I just couldn't find it.
And I'm honestly wondering why that line alone isn't enough. It's going to be mighty hard to "wear the uniform properly" for their level 1 if they don't have it.
You do not have to own a uniform to describe it's correct wear.
Also... "Should Be" is an awfully wishy-washy way for a regulation to say "must"
It's not asking to describe uniform wear, it's asking for uniform wear.
As for should, I'm not a native born English speaker, but this is how I see this word in my day to day use:
should (sh(http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oobreve.gif)d)aux.v. Past tense of shall
1. Used to express obligation or duty: You should send her a note.
2. Used to express probability or expectation: They should arrive at noon.
3. Used to express conditionality or contingency: If she should fall, then so would I.
4. Used to moderate the directness or bluntness of a statement: I should think he would like to go.
QuoteUsage Note: Like the rules governing the use of shall and will on which they are based, the traditional rules governing the use of should and would are largely ignored in modern American practice. Either should or would can now be used in the first person to express conditional futurity: If I had known that, I would (or somewhat more formally, should) have answered differently. But in the second and third persons only would is used: If he had known that, he would (not should) have answered differently. Would cannot always be substituted for should, however. Should is used in all three persons in a conditional clause: if I (or you or he) should decide to go. Should is also used in all three persons to express duty or obligation (the equivalent of ought to): I (or you or he) should go. On the other hand, would is used to express volition or promise: I agreed that I would do it. Either would or should is possible as an auxiliary with like, be inclined, be glad, prefer, and related verbs: I would (or should) like to call your attention to an oversight. Here would was acceptable on all levels to a large majority of the Usage Panel in an earlier survey and is more common in American usage than should. ยท Should have is sometimes incorrectly written should of by writers who have mistaken the source of the spoken contraction should've. See Usage Notes at if, rather, shall.
Read CAPR 50-17, Section 3-3, Item C for context.
Or just do what you know is intended and for the better of everyone and move on.
Mental gymnastics should be an NCC event for Seniors.
So...because you don't feel like they need the uniform, you skip this: "Should is also used in all three persons to express duty or obligation (the equivalent of ought to)", and go to wishy washy? But its not common sense, for a member to know how to wear an organizations uniforms, or to actually have it to demonstrate that knowledge. Much more fun to get wrapped up in whether Should should have been a Will. Should is past tense of Shall. Will is a lot like Shall. At least to this Eastern European mutt.
Well, this degenerated into a regulation-quote skirmish soon enough.
I might as well muddy the waters (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R050_017_AAC4BB3089BE0.pdf) a bit:
QuoteCAPR 50-17 19 AUGUST 2013
3-1. Participation. CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.
As such, according to regs, they're not even allowed to wear Blues until completing Level I.
Quote from: Panache on October 25, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
Well, this degenerated into a regulation-quote skirmish soon enough.
I might as well muddy the waters a bit:
QuoteCAPR 50-17
3-1. Participation.
CAP requires senior members to complete Level I training prior to receiving any assigned duty position in the unit, directly supervising cadets on their own, being allowed to wear the Air Force-style CAP uniform, becoming eligible for promotion, or enrolling in AU A4/6 courses.
As such, according to regs, they're not even allowed to wear Blues until completing Level I.
Right. Demonstrate that you know the name plate doesn't go on the pocket Army style, and wraps up that level 1 all in one night!
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:57:28 PM
Right. Demonstrate that you know the name plate doesn't go on the pocket Army style, and wraps up that level 1 all in one night!
The new "expanded" Level I (effective as of September 2013) is taking our squadron about 3-4 weeks to run through with new members. But that's besides the point. Yet again, we have two sets of regs directly contradicting each other.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 05:48:08 PM
So...because you don't feel like they need the uniform, you skip this: "Should is also used in all three persons to express duty or obligation (the equivalent of ought to)", and go to wishy washy? But its not common sense, for a member to know how to wear an organizations uniforms, or to actually have it to demonstrate that knowledge. Much more fun to get wrapped up in whether Should should have been a Will. Should is past tense of Shall. Will is a lot like Shall. At least to this Eastern European mutt.
I NEVER said I don't feel like they need a uniform.
You said they couldn't have a polo first by regulation.
I argued that this is incorrect.
Talk about mental gymnastics!
the level 1 stuff I merely asked about and pointed out the only stuff I could find.
I still want to know; Can anyone find the regulatory requirement to posess a MBU prior to Level 1 completion?
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
Meanwhile, I hope that the OP got his question answered.... :-[
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
Cite please.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
If I as an activity director say the UoD is Blues or G/W and someone shows up in a polo I can tell them they are wrong and send them packing. You can argue equivalant or not but if the UoD is listed as a specific uniform and you dont show up in it you are wrong.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 25, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
If I as an activity director say the UoD is Blues or G/W and someone shows up in a polo I can tell them they are wrong and send them packing. You can argue equivalant or not but if the UoD is listed as a specific uniform and you dont show up in it you are wrong.
+1 - and the regs explicitly allow CC's to set UOD for seniors.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 06:46:36 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 25, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
If I as an activity director say the UoD is Blues or G/W and someone shows up in a polo I can tell them they are wrong and send them packing. You can argue equivalant or not but if the UoD is listed as a specific uniform and you dont show up in it you are wrong.
+1 - and the regs explicitly allow CC's to set UOD for seniors.
Forget all that. I want to see how a polo is equivalent to Blues or G/Ws.
The equivalency charts make that ridiculous assertion, so it's in there.
Common sense says "seriously"?
"You can't, I won't, you can't make me." Say "Loophole!"
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 25, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
If I as an activity director say the UoD is Blues or G/W and someone shows up in a polo I can tell them they are wrong and send them packing. You can argue equivalant or not but if the UoD is listed as a specific uniform and you dont show up in it you are wrong.
So, if you specify the UOD is AF blues and I show up in the aviator shirt, do I get sent home? After all, I'm not wearing the UOD.
Should not, because if the UOD is Blues, regulations state "or." So by regulations, the AF Blues and G/W are equivalent.
The polo is not mentioned, has not been made equivalent by any ICL, so the person coming in polo is out of uniform.
Flyer
^ Exactly.
You know, there's always one kid in the school chorus wearing a green shirt even though the note sent home
said "white shirt / black pants", because mom decided "this is better".
Most people strive to not be that kid, but there's always a few who think everything in life needs to be a protest against the man.
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 07:02:56 PM
Should not, because if the UOD is Blues, regulations state "or." So by regulations, the AF Blues and G/W are equivalent.
The polo is not mentioned, has not been made equivalent by any ICL, so the person coming in polo is out of uniform.
Flyer
Actually in CAPM 39-1, Table 4-8 lists it as the 'Knit Shirt' and equates it to the short sleve blues AF uniform.
It DOES, however state "Unless Otherwise Specified".
I would take that to mean that a commander may say, "UoD is blues or g&w... NO POLO (knit shirts)"
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 07:02:56 PM
Should not, because if the UOD is Blues, regulations state "or." So by regulations, the AF Blues and G/W are equivalent.
The polo is not mentioned, has not been made equivalent by any ICL, so the person coming in polo is out of uniform.
Flyer
Actually in CAPM 39-1, Table 4-8 lists it as the 'Knit Shirt' and equates it to the short sleve blues AF uniform.
It DOES, however state "Unless Otherwise Specified".
I would take that to mean that a commander may say, "UoD is blues or g&w... NO POLO (knit shirts)"
Correct. Usually done for meetings or when the polo would just be inappropriate (i.e. high level visitors, photos being taken, etc...).
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
Cite please.
CAPR 39-1, Chap 4, Table 4-8
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 06:57:12 PM
The equivalency charts make that ridiculous assertion, so it's in there.
Common sense says "seriously"?
"You can't, I won't, you can't make me." Say "Loophole!"
So it's fine to ignore things in regulations when you personally don't like them. Gotcha.
How about this for an idea: do what's best for the mission! If you're willing to send somebody who's willing to work packing because they wear an approved uniform that you don't like, I would question your motivations and commitment to our Core Values and EO policies.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:13:11 PMHow about this for an idea: do what's best for the mission! If you're willing to send somebody who's willing to work packing because they wear an approved uniform that you don't like, I would question your motivations and commitment to our Core Values and EO policies.
EO? Are you serious?
As indicated "unless otherwise specified".
A member's intent and willingness to work are literally irrelevant to this conversation.
The regs say "possess MBU", they say nothing else in this regard, nor do they suggest "golf shirt is fine until you feel like complying".
If yo want to play the reg game, yo can't simply ignore, extend or enhance the existing text for convenience.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
Cite please.
CAPR 39-1, Chap 4, Table 4-8
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 06:57:12 PM
The equivalency charts make that ridiculous assertion, so it's in there.
Common sense says "seriously"?
"You can't, I won't, you can't make me." Say "Loophole!"
So it's fine to ignore things in regulations when you personally don't like them. Gotcha.
How about this for an idea: do what's best for the mission! If you're willing to send somebody who's willing to work packing because they wear an approved uniform that you don't like, I would question your motivations and commitment to our Core Values and EO policies.
In this instance you do have to remember;
The polo shirt is ONLY equivalent when the commander doesn't say that it isn't.
Of the three it is the only one that the commander can tell you not to wear when blues is prescribed.
So it may be equal.... but the second a commander says, "our members may never wear a polo to our meetings" it no longer is.
Would most? Probably not. But they can.
Johnny, you are nit-picking (excuse the pun). When you do that you lose sight of the forest.
When the commander says "UOD is AF Blues," he has specified. Plain and simple.
Flyer
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 07:18:16 PM
In this instance you do have to remember;
The polo shirt is ONLY equivalent when the commander doesn't say that it isn't.
Of the three it is the only one that the commander can tell you not to wear when blues is prescribed.
So it may be equal.... but the second a commander says, "our members may never wear a polo to our meetings" it no longer is.
Would most? Probably not. But they can.
I guess this goes to the discussion that some people shouldn't be commanders. A leader that would ostracize productive members shouldn't expect much sympathy from upper echelons when things don't get done.
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 07:22:25 PM
Johnny, you are nit-picking (excuse the pun). When you do that you lose sight of the forest.
When the commander says "UOD is AF Blues," he has specified. Plain and simple.
Flyer
I don't actually have a horse in this particular race... so no big deal here to me.
But I disagree.
The table previously cited refers to the knit shirt as an equivalent to AF Blues.
If the commander doesn't want it, he or she has to specifically state it.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:28:24 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 07:18:16 PM
In this instance you do have to remember;
The polo shirt is ONLY equivalent when the commander doesn't say that it isn't.
Of the three it is the only one that the commander can tell you not to wear when blues is prescribed.
So it may be equal.... but the second a commander says, "our members may never wear a polo to our meetings" it no longer is.
Would most? Probably not. But they can.
I guess this goes to the discussion that some people shouldn't be commanders. A leader that would ostracize productive members shouldn't expect much sympathy from upper echelons when things don't get done.
They aren't ostracized if there is a uniform that is always equivalent to the AF blues uniform that everyone can always wear.
That would be the aviator combo.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:28:24 PMI guess this goes to the discussion that some people shouldn't be commanders. A leader that would ostracize productive members shouldn't expect much sympathy from upper echelons when things don't get done.
George Patton disagreed somewhat strongly.
Also, who said anything about "ostracized", that's a pretty big leap. How many times do you let a cadet wearing his school gym uniform on
blues night show up before he's told to wear the UOD?
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 07:37:53 PM
Also, who said anything about "ostracized", that's a pretty big leap. How many times do you let a cadet wearing his school gym uniform on
blues night show up before he's told to wear the UOD?
Talk about a big leap!! Show me where a school gym uniform is considered a valid equivalent to Blues. The polo is. It's not an issue unless the commander decides to make it an issue, thus it is his responsibility for any repercussions. If you have people lining up to fill all of your staff positions and assistants, good for you but you do not represent the majority of CAP. If a commander is going to be a dick about the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about other things as well.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
If a commander is going to be a dick about wants to enforce the rules in regard to the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about enforcing the rules in regard to other things as well.
FTFY
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
If a commander is going to be a dick about wants to enforce the rules in regard to the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about enforcing the rules in regard to other things as well.
FTFY
Rules allow the polo. If he doesn't, it's
his decision, not the rules.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:13:11 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 06:40:12 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 06:33:34 PM
The polo is a cheap equivalent to the AF short-sleeved blues. For $24 you can have the member show up in uniform while they put together the other combinations. Some on this board evidently have no issues finding large numbers of financially well-off people swelling their membership.
If you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
Cite please.
CAPR 39-1, Chap 4, Table 4-8
I should have been more clear.
QuoteIf you are telling people in the polo combination they are not in uniform when the UOD is blues, you are wrong.
Cite this one.
Here are my two examples. I go to SLS. UOD is Blues or G/Ws. ONE goober is in a polo. No one says a [stupid] word. The next day THREE people are in Polos. The exact same thing happened at a TLC. You know, a class for SMs who need to know how to wear uniforms right and should be wearing them as they work with cadets.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PMShow me where a school gym uniform is considered a valid equivalent to Blues. The polo is. It's not an issue unless the commander decides to make it an issue, thus it is his responsibility for any repercussions. If you have people lining up to fill all of your staff positions and assistants, good for you but you do not represent the majority of CAP. If a commander is going to be a dick about the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about other things as well.
Commanders are expected and duty-bound to enforce the regulations and insure discipline and good order.
Setting and enforcing a UOD is one of those things that does that.
If the only discussion point a commander is having is regarding the uniform, something is wrong.
However a confident commander running a full program will set the UOD as a matter of course and move
on because everyone has real work to do. He will set the example by insuring the rules apply to him first
above all, and at all times his uniform will be exemplary and correct.
Members who don't comply with the UOD are not "ostracized", but after a few times, a professional, discreet
discussion is had, and barring some legitimate reason for non-compliance, it wil be up to the commander how to
proceed. Any member who chooses not to be on the same train as everyone else in the room isn't likely
to be interested in the direction that train is going and may do better finding a different unit, echelon,
or organization.
Otherwise, you have the situation many CAP units have today - undermanned units on the verge of
being shutdown if "Jimmy quits.", and "Jimmy doesn't like ties". So Jimmy always looks different and
no one has the fortitude to address it directly.
Obviously this is not "I worked late, the cleaners ate my last shirt, or I misread the UOD." People make mistakes.
There's a difference between that and "Loophole!"
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:57:30 PM
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
If a commander is going to be a dick about wants to enforce the rules in regard to the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about enforcing the rules in regard to other things as well.
FTFY
Rules allow the polo. If he doesn't, it's his decision, command prerogative not the rules.
FTFY x 2
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
If a commander is going to be a dick about wants to enforce the rules in regard to the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about enforcing the rules in regard to other things as well.
FTFY
Let me be even more clear. If a commander tells people not to participate because he doesn't like a uniform approved by NHQ for wear, then he is probably going to make other equally subjective decisions to discourage participation.
This isn't the military, uniforms aren't issued. People help because they want to. If what they have available is a polo and that isn't good enough for you, you have to ask why you're putting your personal bias ahead of the mission.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 08:04:02 PM
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
If a commander is going to be a dick about wants to enforce the rules in regard to the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about enforcing the rules in regard to other things as well.
FTFY
Let me be even more clear. If a commander tells people not to participate because he doesn't like a uniform approved by NHQ for wear, then he is probably going to make other equally subjective decisions to discourage participation.
This isn't the military, uniforms aren't issued. People help because they want to. If what they have available is a polo and that isn't good enough for you, you have to ask why you're putting your personal bias ahead of the mission.
Lets see. Formal events. Promotion ceremonies. Special Events. Maybe the fact that you need to have one, and if a UOD says Blues or G/Ws it means don't look like a goober in the room?
...but they would not have the Polo had they read the rules, had the appropriate discussion with the Commander in the first place. Where the commander would have said "required uniforms are the AF Blues or the Aviator shirt combo. No Polo."
Flyer
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 08:04:02 PM
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2013, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 07:44:31 PM
If a commander is going to be a dick about wants to enforce the rules in regard to the polo shirt, they're probably being a dick about enforcing the rules in regard to other things as well.
FTFY
Let me be even more clear. If a commander tells people not to participate because he doesn't like a uniform approved by NHQ for wear, then he is probably going to make other equally subjective decisions to discourage participation.
This isn't the military, uniforms aren't issued. People help because they want to. If what they have available is a polo and that isn't good enough for you, you have to ask why you're putting your personal bias ahead of the mission.
It's not personal bias, it's discipline and good order. When you joined CAP you agreed to follow the rules and regulations and the orders of the officers over you. If the CC says no polo, as he is allowed to, then it is you putting personal bias ahead of the mission by either a) saying, "no I won't, you can't make me," or b) saying, "I'm taking my toys and going home."
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 08:12:32 PM
...but they would not have the Polo had they read the rules, had the appropriate discussion with the Commander in the first place. Where the commander would have said "required uniforms are the AF Blues or the Aviator shirt combo."
Flyer
+1
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 07:58:40 PM
Otherwise, you have the situation many CAP units have today - undermanned units on the verge of
being shutdown if "Jimmy quits.", and "Jimmy doesn't like ties". So Jimmy always looks different and
no one has the fortitude to address it directly.
If the issue is fixed by a uniform that is already approved by NHQ as an equivalent, then sending "Jimmy" packing is rather irresponsible. It would be different if "Jimmy" refused to wear
any uniform, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a commander that refuses to allow an authorized uniform just because he can.
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 08:12:32 PM
...but they would not have the Polo had they read the rules, had the appropriate discussion with the Commander in the first place. Where the commander would have said "required uniforms are the AF Blues or the Aviator shirt combo. No Polo."
Flyer
They would just not have come. For me, that would have been six months. Fortunately my commander at the time valued my time and effort rather than pursuing a misguided crusade against an approved uniform.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 08:14:06 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2013, 07:58:40 PM
Otherwise, you have the situation many CAP units have today - undermanned units on the verge of
being shutdown if "Jimmy quits.", and "Jimmy doesn't like ties". So Jimmy always looks different and
no one has the fortitude to address it directly.
If the issue is fixed by a uniform that is already approved by NHQ as an equivalent, then sending "Jimmy" packing is rather irresponsible. It would be different if "Jimmy" refused to wear any uniform, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a commander that refuses to allow an authorized uniform just because he can.
So...if you had a Black Tie wedding, and I showed up in my work cargo pants with oil stains on them, that's all good with you?
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 08:14:06 PMIf the issue is fixed by a uniform that is already approved by NHQ as an equivalent, then sending "Jimmy" packing is rather irresponsible. It would be different if "Jimmy" refused to wear any uniform, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a commander that refuses to allow an authorized uniform just because he can.
No, we're not. Until you understand the difference, there's not much here to discuss.
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/warning.png)
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:24:10 PM
So...if you had a Black Tie wedding, and I showed up in my work cargo pants with oil stains on them, that's all good with you?
If I had a black tie wedding, wanted you there, and knew that you didn't have appropriate clothes I would have three options: Make the dress code something you have, get you the clothes, or tell you you're not worth either of these options.
InB4Lock
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:24:10 PM
So...if you had a Black Tie wedding, and I showed up in my work cargo pants with oil stains on them, that's all good with you?
If I had a black tie wedding, wanted you there, and knew that you didn't have appropriate clothes I would have three options: Make the dress code something you have, get you the clothes, or tell you you're not worth either of these options.
But you told me up front that I need Black tie to make it.
Tick, tock... can't stop the lock! ;D
A member that wears a polo when the commander says he wants otherwise points to a loose cannon, one that will always do what he wants no matter the instructions.
Once I was at a bivouac in a semi-rural area. Westchester County College, New York. Wooded area with some trails. A new member was told to move to a spot in a trail as he was to be a "victim" we were going to search for. He knew that most of us were in training and the commander said specifically "not to make it difficult."
The guy decided to climb a 20-foot promontory, button his BDU shirt all the way up, put on his cap, and face the hill away from the trail. Took us two hours beyond the lunch time. Four hours total. And we never found him. In the afternoon after lunch again same guy was told to set a distress beacon near a trail. So again he knew better. Most of us had never done an ELT search either. We never found that beacon. Because we were told to stay near the trail by the commander.
The mission "was done." He should have been sent packing the first instance. He was not. The mission "was done" and followed by a lot of frustration, angry sentiments, and complaints from hungry cadets and senior members. The UOD issue is one way the commander can decide if those guys pay attention and will not do "their own thing."
Flyer
Approved and equivalent or not if the CC/Director states a UofD and someone shows up without it they can be sent home. When I planned activities I stated specifically the UofD and emphasized no deviations would be allowed. I do not want or need someone coming to an activity who can/will not follow the instructions put out. If I specify Blues or G/W then that is the UoD not the polo and if someone shows up wearing one and I send them home that's on them not me.
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 08:26:58 PM
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/warning.png)
This needs to be posted as the first response to every uniform thread. ;D
Quote from: flyer333555 on October 25, 2013, 08:33:05 PM
A member that wears a polo when the commander says he wants otherwise points to a loose cannon, one that will always do what he wants no matter the instructions.
Once I was at a bivouac in a semi-rural area. Westchester County College, New York. Wooded area with some trails. A new member was told to move to a spot in a trail as he was to be a "victim" we were going to search for. He knew that most of us were in training and the commander said specifically "not to make it difficult."
The guy decided to climb a 20-foot promontory, button his BDU shirt all the way up, put on his cap, and face the hill away from the trail. Took us two hours beyond the lunch time. Four hours total. And we never found him. In the afternoon after lunch again same guy was told to set a distress beacon near a trail. So again he knew better. Most of us had never done an ELT search either. We never found that beacon. Because we were told to stay near the trail by the commander.
The mission "was done." He should have been sent packing the first instance. He was not. The mission "was done" and followed by a lot of frustration, angry sentiments, and complaints from hungry cadets and senior members. The UOD issue is one way the commander can decide if those guys pay attention and will not do "their own thing."
Flyer
So wearing something that NHQ says is fine is equivalent to intentionally derailing the mission. Gotcha.
I think sending someone home for wearing an NHQ equivalent uniform is more like telling a short person to get something off a high shelf, and sending them home when they can't.
If the short person is not smart enough to get a ladder, a box, or ask another person to cup his/her hands to reach the higher shelf, he needs to go home as he does not have the brains to do the mission!
And NHQ is not present at the local place to see why there is a need for the UOD not including the polo...
Flyer
Back to the OP's question - it depends on the unit.
For example, at some senior squadrons the UOD is "Clothes". You'll usually see the commander and a couple staff members in uniform and maybe some others in flight suits if they finished flying just before the meeting. While at many cadet and composite squadrons, the BDU/BBDU is most often worn with the blues/aviator worn once a month, and some alternate between the service and BDU/BBDU for meetings.
At exercises/missions, it depends on what you're doing. Most aircrew wear flightsuits. Ground teams wear BDU/BBDUs. UDF are a split between BDU/BBDU and golf shirt. Mission staff are migrating toward the golf shirt for seniors and bdus for cadets.
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent are required. Polos are not.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent or G&W are required. Polos, which are only equivalent when allowed by the commander are not.
FTFY
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent are required. Polos are not.
Per 39-1 polo is equivalent.
Some of the responses in this discussion (and others) cause me to question why I should continue in CAP. Then I remember the dedicated men and women I actually work with and the good we actually accomplish. Still, it's not a good thing when I'm thankful I don't have to deal with people that belong to the same organization in real life.
Well, time to put on my polo shirt and get ready to teach a weekend ES class.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent or G&W (he had it right) are required. Polos, which are only equivalent when allowed unless specifically disallowed by the commander are not.
FTFY
FTFY
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:04:15 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent or G&W (he had it right) are required. Polos, which are only equivalent when allowed unless specifically disallowed by the commander are not.
FTFY
FTFY
Negative.
Members are required to own (at somepoint in their CAP career as I have yet been unable to precisely determine) the MBU.
The Minimum Basic Uniform.
This is either the Aviator shirt and grey slacks combo OR
The blues uniform.
That is clearly spelled out at the beginning of CAPM 39-1.
The polo is an optional uniform and completely defined as such in the same section; equivalent only when not disallowed.
It's there in black and white.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent or G&W are required. Polos, which are only equivalent when allowed by the commander are not.
FTFY
There's my bias. Got tired of typing G/Ws on a cell phone. In no possible scenario is a polo equivalent for anything you would wear blues/whites to look professional.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:04:15 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent or G&W (he had it right) are required. Polos, which are only equivalent when allowed unless specifically disallowed by the commander are not.
FTFY
FTFY
Tie yourself in knots all you want. Enjoy being the goober at a wing conference, promotion ceremony, banquet, etc.
I bet you don't work in the corporate world. Or maybe you did? Until you showed up to a business meeting in the company polo and khakis instead of a business suit?
QuoteThere's my bias. Got tired of typing G/Ws on a cell phone. In no possible scenario is a polo equivalent for anything you would wear blues/whites to look professional.
Your bias does not equal regulation.
The Polo being in the table of equivalencies kind of does.... but again... only when not disallowed. :)
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 09:07:35 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:04:15 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 08:53:37 PM
Actually, its more akin to the short person going across the street and getting something from a different shelf. Blues and Equivalent or G&W (he had it right) are required. Polos, which are only equivalent when allowed unless specifically disallowed by the commander are not.
FTFY
FTFY
Negative.
Members are required to own (at somepoint in their CAP career as I have yet been unable to precisely determine) the MBU.
The Minimum Basic Uniform.
This is either the Aviator shirt and grey slacks combo OR
The blues uniform.
That is clearly spelled out at the beginning of CAPM 39-1.
The polo is an optional uniform and completely defined as such in the same section; equivalent only when not disallowed.
It's there in black and white.
I think we're saying the same thing on that.
There is no practical reason to disallow it. To disallow a NHQ approved uniform serves no mission purpose except under very rare occurrences. To dismiss it as a matter of course is irresponsible.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:22:02 PM
There is no practical reason to disallow it. To disallow a NHQ approved uniform serves no mission purpose except under very rare occurrences. To dismiss it as a matter of course is irresponsible.
All hands meetings, promotion ceremonies, banquets, professional PD courses, conferences. Plenty of reason to not allow polos in certain instances.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 09:26:56 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:22:02 PM
There is no practical reason to disallow it. To disallow a NHQ approved uniform serves no mission purpose except under very rare occurrences. To dismiss it as a matter of course is irresponsible.
All hands meetings, promotion ceremonies, banquets, professional PD courses, conferences. Plenty of reason to not allow polos in certain instances.
FTFY
Ceremonies and banquets are rare, and you might not even need to restrict them then.
Please explain how being in a polo makes someone unable to listen to a presentation, engage in a discussion, or file paperwork.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Ceremonies and banquets are rare, and you might not even need to restrict them then.
::) Got it.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Please explain how being in a polo makes someone unable to listen to a presentation, engage in a discussion, or file paperwork.
Just based on the above, I can see this is something that will probably make no sense to you, ever. No point in wasting more breath on the subject.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Ceremonies and banquets are rare, and you might not even need to restrict them then.
::) Got it.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Please explain how being in a polo makes someone unable to listen to a presentation, engage in a discussion, or file paperwork.
Just based on the above, I can see this is something that will probably make no sense to you, ever. No point in wasting more breath on the subject.
Considering the NHQ approved the uniform, I guess they don't get it either.
Hey, folks, are we adults here, or fussy four-year-olds?
Mr. Dean, have you ever served in the military? If so, then you don't "get it". If you haven't, then your perspective is flawed.
We operate under a specific set of rules. The ones in question are pretty clear. The "guy in charge" has the option of establishing a specific UoD. Failure to comply can mean getting sent home. It's not rocket surgery.
Another part of the rules specifies a minimum basic uniform. That's not brain science, either.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:38:48 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 09:34:38 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Ceremonies and banquets are rare, and you might not even need to restrict them then.
::) Got it.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Please explain how being in a polo makes someone unable to listen to a presentation, engage in a discussion, or file paperwork.
Just based on the above, I can see this is something that will probably make no sense to you, ever. No point in wasting more breath on the subject.
Considering the NHQ approved the uniform, I guess they don't get it either.
Do remember that the same NHQ also put in the "unless otherwise specified" clause.
Meaning they understood that there were times and places where a polo probably wouldn't cut it.
Of course they also assume that at some point you would own a second, WHITE shirt with at least 3 pieces of flair on it that can be worn for those more formal occasions.
Because nothing says "I'm here for a banquet, lets be formal!" like looking like an airline pilot... without the cool hat. ;D
( I wear that uniform... so I can make jokes. That's the rules)
Quote from: johnnyb47 on October 25, 2013, 09:44:17 PM
Do remember that the same NHQ also put in the "unless otherwise specified" clause.
Meaning they understood that there were times and places where a polo probably wouldn't cut it.
Of course they also assume that at some point you would own a second, WHITE shirt with at least 3 pieces of flair on it that can be worn for those more formal occasions.
Because nothing says "I'm here for a banquet, lets be formal!" like looking like an airline pilot... without the cool hat. ;D
( I wear that uniform... so I can make jokes. That's the rules)
I agree with this completely. I would expect people to eventually collect a full set of BDUs (or DFU) as well as the Blues/Aviator combo. I also get that the latter is required (eventually by some point we haven't yet determined). I would also expect someone getting involved in flight operations to get a flight suit.
My biggest issue is with those that have said seniors should never buy the polo, much less wear it, that it is never appropriate, and those that have it shouldn't be allowed to participate at all unless they get the other uniforms together first. I can see no mission need for the admin officer to wear the aviator shirt while filing that wouldn't be accomplished with the polo shirt. There is no reason that wearing a polo shirt during a presentation is going to prevent learning the material. It is the cheapest and easiest uniform to put together.
If someone gets the polo shirt and never even attempts to put together the other uniforms, I see that as a problem. But to prevent people from participating in mundane tasks if that's what they have seems ridiculous.
It shouldn't be "what they have". It should be one of the things they have, if at all.
By the way, here is a timeline of how long it took to get my uniforms...
Polo Shirt - 2 weeks
Aviator - 5 months
DFU - 11 months
Aviator that fit right - 15 months
Blazer - 2 years
I accomplished quite a bit in those first five months. I have accomplished much more since. If I had been told not to come back until I got the aviator shirt, I probably wouldn't have come back and would likely have joined another organization.
Turnaround on an Aviator uniform is 1 week. Just because you chose to drag it out, that's on you. In fact, turnaround time on my G/Ws was 36 hours.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 10:14:25 PM
Turnaround on an Aviator uniform is 1 week. Just because you chose to drag it out, that's on you.
And it's more expensive, and a plain shirt is not an acceptable uniform - you need to buy other things with it. Funds were an issue, and most of those were spent on the two cadets I had in the program.
I guess we can all just be glad that you weren't my commander.
Probably. If I let members slip on minor things like the base uniform, what else would I slide on?
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
Cheapest polo on VG: $24.00
Aviator: $25.25
Gray name rag: $3.50
So your commanders integrity and a grande pays for compliance. But I get the point, its more expensive.
Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2013, 08:26:58 PM
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/warning.png)
Really?, I just finished my second bucket of pop corns.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
So far, nobody's been able to find any such place anywhere within a couple hundred miles.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 10:29:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
Cheapest polo on VG: $24.00
Aviator: $25.25
Gray name rag: $3.50
So your commanders integrity and a grande pays for compliance. But I get the point, its more expensive.
Plus the shoulder boards. If you want to buy them for your officers, that's your prerogative as well. The fact that I did more work than almost the rest of the squadron at the time may have been part of it. But I guess the mission is secondary to allowing an approved uniform that some officer in another wing finds offensive.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
So far, nobody's been able to find any such place anywhere within a couple hundred miles.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 25, 2013, 10:29:30 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
Cheapest polo on VG: $24.00
Aviator: $25.25
Gray name rag: $3.50
So your commanders integrity and a grande pays for compliance. But I get the point, its more expensive.
Plus the shoulder boards. If you want to buy them for your officers, that's your prerogative as well. The fact that I did more work than almost the rest of the squadron at the time may have been part of it. But I guess the mission is secondary to allowing an approved uniform that some officer in another wing finds offensive.
SMWOG don't wear grade sleeves. What else ya got?
Just for giggles. In the 6 months you could skip another two grandes to get the grade slides.
So uniformity is not important? Doing the bare minimum is acceptable? I own the polo and don't care for it, I wear it when I'm told to or out of neccesity. I guess that being the CDC that means I shouldn't set a uniform for cadets or those working around them.
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
So far, nobody's been able to find any such place anywhere within a couple hundred miles.
I'd be willing to bet there's something at Olympia Muni. If not there, then Sea-Tac. The next time you're at Sea-Tac, as a pilot where he got his shirt.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 11:07:57 PM
Quote from: Elioron on October 25, 2013, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 25, 2013, 10:26:23 PM
Do you live close to any kind of an airport with an FBO? There's usually some sort of pilot shop at airports. Go inside, ask to see the pilot shirts, and get one each Van Heusen Aviator flavor shirt. Done. No mail order. No shipping cost. Immediate gratification.
So far, nobody's been able to find any such place anywhere within a couple hundred miles.
I'd be willing to bet there's something at Olympia Muni. If not there, then Sea-Tac. The next time you're at Sea-Tac, as a pilot where he got his shirt.
But that wouldn't work with the narrative he's slowly building up.
I was new
I was broke
I was doing all this work
I'm special
Let's really put this into lock mode! I say we ban all polo version of the uniforms and never approve the ABU.
I didn't realize that uniform requirements were based on work completed.
Quote from: TarRiverRat on October 26, 2013, 12:22:59 AM
Let's really put this into lock mode! I say we ban all polo version of the uniforms and never approve the ABU.
Where's Colgan when we need him? ;)
Y'all done screwed the pooch now. :clap:
Please do not light the threads on fire.
Lock.
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/img/fire.jpg)