I've heard the term Class A Blues used a lot in CAP, and I am just wondering what the heck that means? Does Class A Blues refer to the Air Force Style blues uniform? With short sleeves and the flight cap? Does it mean the Service Dress Uniform? What gives?
Can anyone help me out? What is Class A Blues REALLY referring to? I've researched this so much, but I can't find anything that says Class A Blues is a type of Civil Air Patrol authorized uniform. I'm assuming it is some type of slang used to refer to an actual uniform.
Could anyone provide me with the details of Class A Blues, specifically what it is really called and all the items that complete it. Thanks!
Quote from: williamsra12 on May 14, 2011, 08:18:23 PM
I've heard the term Class A Blues used a lot in CAP, and I am just wondering what the heck that means? Does Class A Blues refer to the Air Force Style blues uniform? With short sleeves and the flight cap? Does it mean the Service Dress Uniform? What gives?
Can anyone help me out? What is Class A Blues REALLY referring to? I've researched this so much, but I can't find anything that says Class A Blues is a type of Civil Air Patrol authorized uniform. I'm assuming it is some type of slang used to refer to an actual uniform.
Could anyone provide me with the details of Class A Blues, specifically what it is really called and all the items that complete it. Thanks!
Class A,B, etc do not exist in CAP. It's a hold over from much older days or people that are prior military. You'll hear it because people don't like to change. Class A usually means Service Dress(with jacket) class B usually means blues shirt only.
You are about to be bombarded by the incredulous. However, there is no official "uniform classes" in CAP or the USAF. It does mean, in unofficial parlance, service dress with the service coat.
My opinion on such issues...when all unofficial parlance is forbidden (including things like identifying CAP aircraft by the last two numbers...example calling N737YP..."Yankee Papa"...calling a unit citation the "Green Weenee" or calling a Wing Commander a "Wing King") then it is a non-issue.
Until those that hate people calling uniform classes verboten get rid of it all, then I can tolerate its use.
There are no "Class A, B, C, etc" uniforms in the AF or CAP, however, each uniform has a name.
Service dress
Service uniform
Battle Dress Uniform
Mess Dress Uniform
Semi-Formal Uniform
Flightsuit
CAP distinctive uniforms are:
Blazer
Aviator shirt
Field Uniform
Utility Uniform
Golf shirt
Blue flightsuit
Corporate service dress
Semi-Formal Blazer uniform
Quote from: williamsra12 on May 14, 2011, 08:18:23 PM
I've heard the term Class A Blues used a lot in CAP, and I am just wondering what the heck that means? Does Class A Blues refer to the Air Force Style blues uniform? With short sleeves and the flight cap? Does it mean the Service Dress Uniform? What gives?
Can anyone help me out? What is Class A Blues REALLY referring to? I've researched this so much, but I can't find anything that says Class A Blues is a type of Civil Air Patrol authorized uniform. I'm assuming it is some type of slang used to refer to an actual uniform.
Could anyone provide me with the details of Class A Blues, specifically what it is really called and all the items that complete it. Thanks!
Class A (and old term) would be considered the Service Dress Uniform, see CAPM 39-1, Chapter 2, page 17 for the pictures of it. Ref: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_chap_2.pdf
RM
Quote from: Major Carrales on May 14, 2011, 08:27:22 PM
You are about to be bombarded by the incredulous. However, there is no official "uniform classes" in CAP or the USAF. It does mean, in unofficial parlance, service dress with the service coat.
My opinion on such issues...when all unofficial parlance is forbidden (including things like identifying CAP aircraft by the last two numbers...example calling N737YP..."Yankee Papa"...calling a unit citation the "Green Weenee" or calling a Wing Commander a "Wing King") then it is a non-issue.
Until those that hate people calling uniform classes verboten get rid of it all, then I can tolerate its use.
:clap:
As it has been said. Class A is slang for the service dress uniform. Class B is short sleeve blues.
It is old style talk.
It is one of the pet peeves of some here on CT.
They are the Class A Nazis.
And since I have referenced nazis....we need to lock . :)
Quote from: lordmonar on May 14, 2011, 10:37:36 PM
As it has been said. Class A is slang for the service dress uniform. Class B is short sleeve blues.
It is old style talk.
It is one of the pet peeves of some here on CT.
They are the Class A Nazis.
And since I have referenced nazis....we need to lock . :)
It's not "old style talk", it's Army talk.
Thanks guys! This clears up a lot!
It is not Army talk, I have heard it from more Air Force personnel than I can count.
Class A is the Service jacket, Class B is no Service Jacket. Class B has two other classifications that can be used, Summer Bs would be short sleeve, and Winter Bs would be long sleeve.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 15, 2011, 05:29:39 PM
It is not Army talk, I have heard it from more Air Force personnel than I can count.
Class A is the Service jacket, Class B is no Service Jacket. Class B has two other classifications that can be used, Summer Bs would be short sleeve, and Winter Bs would be long sleeve.
It
is Army talk, left over from the '40s. I would like you, or anyone else, to show me a single source that defines AF or CAP uniform combinations by that terminology. We can continue the discussion from there.
I know that it hasn't been official in CAP since at least 1968.
Quote from: PHall on May 14, 2011, 11:03:39 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 14, 2011, 10:37:36 PM
As it has been said. Class A is slang for the service dress uniform. Class B is short sleeve blues.
It is old style talk.
It is one of the pet peeves of some here on CT.
They are the Class A Nazis.
And since I have referenced nazis....we need to lock . :)
It's not "old style talk", it's Army talk.
My TI called them Class A's back in '86
At my tech school there was a big sign on the Training Office Wall that said "Uniform of the Day" Class B Short Sleeve No Tie.
Like I said.....it is SLANG. I don't see a regulation on SLANG anywhere. ;D
Quote from: SarDragon on May 15, 2011, 05:58:35 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 15, 2011, 05:29:39 PM
It is not Army talk, I have heard it from more Air Force personnel than I can count.
Class A is the Service jacket, Class B is no Service Jacket. Class B has two other classifications that can be used, Summer Bs would be short sleeve, and Winter Bs would be long sleeve.
It is Army talk, left over from the '40s. I would like you, or anyone else, to show me a single source that defines AF or CAP uniform combinations by that terminology. We can continue the discussion from there.
I know that it hasn't been official in CAP since at least 1968.
Get rid of all SLANG in CAP and I might support your contention. But, if you are gonna remain so incredulous about this issue...you shouldn't pick and choose.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 15, 2011, 06:05:53 PMAs it has been said. Class A is slang for the service dress uniform. Class B is short sleeve blues. My TI called them Class A's back in '86
At my tech school there was a big sign on the Training Office Wall that said "Uniform of the Day" Class B Short Sleeve No Tie.
The USAF used "Combination' 1 thru 4. Combination 3 no longer exists. What you describe above would have been 4.
The "combination" terminology ceased when we got the windbreakers and sweaters as now there were a half dozen variants of the uniform instead of dress coat or nothing. If you tried to use that system with the current 39-1 you would have "Class M" and "Combination 16" and such, and it wouldn't help.
Well, What ever you want to call it, I can't find one anywhere in Vanguard.
Paul
When we were in garrison at Schofield Barracks, we were required to be in "spits and starches". This meant spit shined boots and starched BDUs. We would have a Class A inspection about every 6 months and the only time I wore Class Bs was doing CQ on Christmas or Thanksgiving(It was Hawaii which meant it was usually about 82 on those days). It may be slang. It may be Army slang. As long as you know what they're talking about, who cares?
Quote from: ol'fido on May 23, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
As long as you know what they're talking about, who cares?
CAPTalkers. >:D
Quote from: ol'fido on May 23, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
When we were in garrison at Schofield Barracks, we were required to be in "spits and starches". This meant spit shined boots and starched BDUs. We would have a Class A inspection about every 6 months and the only time I wore Class Bs was doing CQ on Christmas or Thanksgiving(It was Hawaii which meant it was usually about 82 on those days). It may be slang. It may be Army slang. As long as you know what they're talking about, who cares?
A significant number of CAP members
haven't been exposed to this terribly outdated terminology, and
don't understand. It is, IMHO, a disservice to the members, and to CAP in general, to perpetuate this nonsense. This terminology hasn't been official in CAP for at least 43 years, so why are we still using it?
Quote from: SarDragon on May 24, 2011, 04:19:40 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on May 23, 2011, 09:23:03 PM
When we were in garrison at Schofield Barracks, we were required to be in "spits and starches". This meant spit shined boots and starched BDUs. We would have a Class A inspection about every 6 months and the only time I wore Class Bs was doing CQ on Christmas or Thanksgiving(It was Hawaii which meant it was usually about 82 on those days). It may be slang. It may be Army slang. As long as you know what they're talking about, who cares?
A significant number of CAP members haven't been exposed to this terribly outdated terminology, and don't understand. It is, IMHO, a disservice to the members, and to CAP in general, to perpetuate this nonsense. This terminology hasn't been official in CAP for at least 43 years, so why are we still using it?
I think, on the cadet side of the house at least, that the cadets hear one of our *older* members say it. The cadets then turn around and repeat it to other cadets and so forth and so on.
Everytime i hear it come out of a cadets mouth i stop them and inform them that the term is no correct. 90% of the time i get this response "oh, i thought that's what the AF call's them"......
So now, when i teach a class on uniforms in our SLS's, i make sure to point out that class A's and class B's are not real, and if we used that system, we would have class G's and class F's....
Thank you.
My Army vet dad called my blues the "bus driver" uniform.
The RAF and Commonwealth air forces call their service dress with full-size medals "blues, greys and gongs."
The Luftwaffe called its version of the Ike jacket the Fliegerbluse (flying blouse), even though a lot of airmen who wore it were not aircrew.
The Canadians call their respective army (dark green), naval (dark blue/black/white) and air uniforms "distinctive environmental uniforms."
The USAAF (and CAP) called its classic WWII uniforms "pinks and greens."
It's really not worth getting pedantic about...it's like calling a Navy enlisted uniform "crackerjacks" with a "Dixie cup" hat, or the anatomically descriptive name for the flight/overseas cap.
I would venture to guess that most of these terms are pretty much community wide.That is not the case, and the biggest part of the problem.
Some members pass 'Classes' down, from generation to generation, and others refuse to use them at all. There is a lot of unneeded confusion. What's the solution?
Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2011, 05:17:54 AM
The USAAF (and CAP) called its classic WWII uniforms "pinks and greens."
Only for officers. Enlisted wore olive drab wool for both jacket and trousers.
Human nature tends to seek and use simple understandable terms for simple understandable concepts.
Hence things like TPU (later CSU) , grey ghost, and Class A vs. Class B.
They work effectively to communicate clearly among people out there in the field doing their job on Tuesday nights.
Bureaucrats, however, prefer to use long and difficult to understand terms in lieu of simple words. It's a control thing.
"Class A" versus "Class B" simply works better to communicate the concept then having to state "Men's/Women's Service Dress Uniform" versus " Men's/Women's Long-sleeve Light Blue Blouse/shirt" or "Men's/Women's Short-sleeve Light Blue Blouse/Shirt".
It even works better than saying "blues" which is still ambiguous about sleeve length and service coats.
In terms of glass houses, given the integrity of our membership, I'm sure no one will ever criticise the use of Class A or B if they have ever said "BDU" instead of the official nomenclature "Battle Dress Uniform," "CSU" instead of Aviator Shirt with Epaulets", or ever addressed an NCO as "Sarge" or a lieutenant as "L-T".
But this is CAPTalk, and we love to show how much more integrity we have than the other anonymous posters.
Or something.
Ned Lee
BDU's? Ooooooh You mean; "Fatigues"! My only gripe about the mixed terminology ( Pardon me while I don my blouse, field scarf and low quarters) is that we pass our own widely divergent set of confusing nomenclature to new Cadets ( and new Seniors as well) but I am not sure how much of a real life problem that presents. Also, maybe creating an environment of ambiguity, uncertainty, and deeply held but incorrect beliefs is the best way to help them transition to the bleak and stark realities of adulthood. Its not a "bug" Its a "feature"!
Major Lord
There are times when exact and specific terminology is very important.....and there are times when short hand/slang/common terms are appropriate.
Class A's.......if Cadet X is at the Homer J. Simpson Composite squadron and they call it Class A/Class B then it works...communication happens. Telling them "there is no such thing as Class A's" is automatically a null message as they experience Class A's every day.
"Reeducating" them on the "proper" terms in this context actually creates barriers to communication.
Quote from: Ned on May 24, 2011, 04:27:35 PMIn terms of glass houses, given the integrity of our membership, I'm sure no one will ever criticise the use of Class A or B if they have ever said "BDU" instead of the official nomenclature "Battle Dress Uniform," "CSU" instead of Aviator Shirt with Epaulets"
Not a good analogy as "BDU" is an unambiguous abbreviation of the proper term for our service. "BBDU", however, isn't, as the Blue Field Uniform is not a
"battle dress", though "BBDU" make sense in our context.
The "CSU", is not, however, the "Aviator Shirt with epaulets", in fact that is a different uniform altogether.
Many of you are assuming that all our cadets are bound for the USAF where this terminology is used. I could make the case that cadets going into the US ARMY or US MARINES would be harmed having a lexicon of CAP terms in their head. Even our best cadets will have to adjust. Imagine a SPAATZ cadet now in training referring to his Company Commander as a Squadron Commander. What might happen to that person?
We don't use the uniform class system in our unit, my correspondence to cadets in the official form is the use of standard terminology ("minimum basic service dress" and "light-weight blue jacket" instead of "blues" and "zipper jacket," however, in the parlance of squadron communication among cadets the latter are used because they say the most in the smallest amount of words.
Example:
Proper CAPSPEAK: "All participating cadets will arrive at 1200L hrs at Memorial Middle School, Poratbale ROOM 203, UNIFORM of the DAY will be minimum basic service dress."
FIELDSPEAK: "Meet at noon at CAP Station Kingsville in short sleeve blues."
CAPALTERNATESPEAK: "Show up at the hut at noon, CLASS B uniform"
Quote from: Major Carrales on May 24, 2011, 05:28:05 PM
Proper CAPSPEAK: "All participating cadets will arrive at 1200L hrs at Memorial Middle School, Poratbale ROOM 203, UNIFORM of the DAY will be minimum basic service dress uniform."
Fixed that for you. Service Dress is the coat and tie combo.
Quote from: MIKE on May 24, 2011, 05:38:16 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on May 24, 2011, 05:28:05 PM
Proper CAPSPEAK: "All participating cadets will arrive at 1200L hrs at Memorial Middle School, Poratbale ROOM 203, UNIFORM of the DAY will be minimum basic service dress uniform."
Fixed that for you. Service Dress is the coat and tie combo.
1-5. Uniform Combinations. (Page 8-CAPM 39-1 23 MARCH 2005)
Quotea. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.
To add to the correction, however, points out what Ned alluded to. Long unyieldly names for things cause issues. This is why I feel people use terminology like "CLASS A" and "CLASS B," to avoid paragraph sized names.
OK, let's add those names to the uni reg, so everyone knows them, and we'll all be happy. Then it will be universal. Isn't that the goal here?
Quote from: SarDragon on May 24, 2011, 06:41:29 PM
OK, let's add those names to the uni reg, so everyone knows them, and we'll all be happy. Then it will be universal. Isn't that the goal here?
I agree - another of those baseline issues of contention that could be solved with two paragraphs.
I don't understand why simple principles of management and business escape these situations.
The second time someone asks a question should be the time whomever has the authority sits down and writes the definitive answer.
That way he third time someone asks, the answer is readily available.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 24, 2011, 06:41:29 PM
OK, let's add those names to the uni reg, so everyone knows them, and we'll all be happy. Then it will be universal. Isn't that the goal here?
I don't know if that is really the goal....or is it just the need to be superior to others by using the "proper" term.
It is not like we are confused about what they are talking about. It is not like there are 100 different definitions of Class A's.
It is simply a differernt term. BBDU Vs Blue Field Uniform. 090 degrees vs East. Left to right vs Horizonatally.
They mean the same thing. Some are more appropriate is some situations.
But people are confused. New members frequently come on here, and CS, and ask, "What are Class A's?" It isn't universal, because there is a conscious effort in some units to not use outdated terminology.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on May 24, 2011, 05:53:25 AM
Only for officers. Enlisted wore olive drab wool for both jacket and trousers.
Noted...however, my dad was in the Army when they switched over from those uniforms to the green Class A's (which he hated; he liked the Ike jacket) and he told me that the officers' service coat was actually more of a chocolate brown. I have his old Ike jacket (complete with green then-new Specialist 4 insignia, which sticks out like a sore thumb) and it is indeed olive drab.
He said the khaki (pronounced "car-key" in other English-speaking countries) uniform was almost universally referred to as "suntans." I have his tan overseas cap with blue Infantry piping (though he was in the 4th Armored Division; go figure).
I don't know what the "proper" term for the Ike jacket was but I never heard him refer to it as anything but that.
The RAF/Commonwealth term for their "Ike" was "Suits, Aircrew," even though almost everyone ended up wearing it (some in khaki rather than blue), but I have never heard it referred to as anything but "battledress" or "BD."
(http://www.historicflyingclothing.com/myarchive/11.jpg)
And then we have all sorts of nicknames for our rank insignia: butterbars, railroad tracks, butterballs, chickens...
Point? It's good to
know the proper terminology but I believe it's more important to know what is being talked
about.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 24, 2011, 07:44:56 PM
And then we have all sorts of nicknames for our rank insignia: butterbars, railroad tracks, butterballs, chickens...
The pointy chevron that is a safety hazard to C/SNCOs....
Sorry, had to get that in here.
If i am correct i belive a Class A blue is worn by NCO, officers, and seinor members. They are a darkish blue with a service jacket. for information check out the cap reg book.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on July 31, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
If i am correct i belive a Class A blue is worn by NCO, officers, and seinor members. They are a darkish blue with a service jacket. for information check out the cap reg book.
. . you denecroed
. . a 14 month old
. . thread
. . for that?
All comments copyrighted eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium
Quote from: red_sox_fan on July 31, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
If i am correct i belive a Class A blue is worn by NCO, officers, and seinor members. They are a darkish blue with a service jacket. for information check out the cap reg book.
The
Service Dress can be worn by any CAP member - including Cadet Airmen.
Well, someone had to say it
When i was an amn we had combo 1, 2, 3 and 4!
Quote from: MSgt Van on August 01, 2012, 12:13:23 AM
When i was an amn we had combo 1, 2, 3 and 4!
what about combo #5? You know, that hit song from the early 200s...
Quote from: MSgt Van on August 01, 2012, 12:13:23 AM
When i was an amn we had combo 1, 2, 3 and 4!
Dating yourself? ;)
The advantage to dating yourself is that you only buy half as much popcorn.
Might've been a good idea to un-kill this thread. The Air Force has gone back to the "class A," "class B" terminology.
But CAP, as of right now, hasn't. Making this guess is no different than the ABU guess.
I don't know what the AF uniform history is, but CAP has not officially used that nomenclature since before I joined in 1964. I have copies of the uni regs to substantiate that.
Yes, but can I get Class C Digitals?
Maybe.
Do you know the secret handshake, and have the code word tattooed on your butt? >:D
Quote from: SarDragon on August 01, 2012, 08:20:48 PM
Maybe.
Do you know the secret handshake, and have the code word tattooed on your butt? >:D
yes. its <blatant opsec violation> and here is the tattoo:<censored>
Quote from: krnlpanick on August 01, 2012, 07:29:28 PM
Yes, but can I get Class C A Digitals?
(http://ph.cdn.photos.upi.com/topic_photo/Stephen_Colbert/a99a72c4284c68149caf617f0e5ccfb8/)
Here you go!
Holy crap... that is all.. :clap:
Well looks like i have been lyed to by my commander i was always told that only NCO can wear it i guss ill check the regs again.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 02, 2012, 05:14:58 PM
Well looks like i have been lyed to by my commander i was always told that only NCO can wear it i guss ill check the regs again.
Only an NCO can wear what?
Also using the word "lie" in the same sentences as "my commander" is not a good idea on the internet. Being incorrect isn't the same
as lying.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 02, 2012, 05:23:24 PM
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 02, 2012, 05:14:58 PM
Well looks like i have been lyed to by my commander i was always told that only NCO can wear it i guss ill check the regs again.
Only an NCO can wear what?
Also using the word "lie" in the same sentences as "my commander" is not a good idea on the internet. Being incorrect isn't the same as lying.
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above. Don't know how much truth there is to that though..
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above. Don't know how much truth there is to that though..
I've seen that too. Commander's discretion I guess, hopefully properly documented in a unit OI, but not a "lie".
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Or perhaps an issue with supply. If there's not enough to go around, it is well within the CC's right to say that. Or he could say if there's not enough, then no one gets to wear it.
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 02, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Or perhaps an issue with supply. If there's not enough to go around, it is well within the CC's right to say that. Or he could say if there's not enough, then no one gets to wear it.
They can try to justify it however they want - it's idiotic.
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 02, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Or perhaps an issue with supply. If there's not enough to go around, it is well within the CC's right to say that. Or he could say if there's not enough, then no one gets to wear it.
They can try to justify it however they want - it's idiotic.
Can you name me a procedure in CAP that ISN'T? ;D
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Really? I can think of any number of reasons why to do it that way.
a) Status symbol for NCO's and above.....just like the service hat is restricted to Officers.
b) Limited supply train of the service coats....so they limit them to those who have acheived/show commitment to the CAP program.
c) Uniformity (sort of).....you don't want C/AB Newguy thinking he has to go buy a $100 service coat....and being the only Airman in a service coat.
Not idiotic at all.
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 02, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Or perhaps an issue with supply. If there's not enough to go around, it is well within the CC's right to say that. Or he could say if there's not enough, then no one gets to wear it.
They can try to justify it however they want - it's idiotic.
About as idiotic as any one of our stupid uniform/CP/ES rules. Why can only officers wear service caps? Why can't we wear boonie caps in the filed? Why do we wear color on camoflage?
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
The commander was replaced due to her lack of knowledge of CAP. For people bad mouthing me let me tell you something are squad would later find out that she wasnt allowing us to because she dint think it looked good for people without alot of ribbions to be wearing class A blues. again she told us that airmen werent allowed to wear class A under regulations. Actually the bigger reason she was replaced was because people who dint have who "inspired" them to join. She filled it in with her name so she got the recuriter ribbion by not showing core values. My point of that is she dint have much trust to begin with.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 08:37:02 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on August 02, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Or perhaps an issue with supply. If there's not enough to go around, it is well within the CC's right to say that. Or he could say if there's not enough, then no one gets to wear it.
They can try to justify it however they want - it's idiotic.
About as idiotic as any one of our stupid uniform/CP/ES rules. Why can only officers wear service caps? Why can't we wear boonie caps in the filed? Why do we wear color on camoflage?
1. No idea.
2. USAF said NO!!!
3. Good question - distinctive?
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 02, 2012, 09:19:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
The commander was replaced due to her lack of knowledge of CAP. For people bad mouthing me let me tell you something are squad would later find out that she wasnt allowing us to because she dint think it looked good for people without alot of ribbions to be wearing class A blues. again she told us that airmen werent allowed to wear class A under regulations. Actually the bigger reason she was replaced was because people who dint have who "inspired" them to join. She filled it in with her name so she got the recuriter ribbion by not showing core values. My point of that is she dint have much trust to begin with.
Your CC was replaced because she was incompetent? Is that what I'm seeing? Also, the idea that a cadet can't wear a class-A uniform because it "didn't look good for people without a lot of ribbons" is a load of horse squeeze.
Pretty much anyone graduating from basic training either has no ribbons, or one, or two, depending on how they do during training. They also get marksman badges in the Army if they qualify. Does it look bad? No. You get a ribbon for achievements and awards. I'm not arguing the point, just the stupidity behind her dicta.
The thing about the commander filling out their name under who recruited them is an old story. Glad she was removed. If she is still in perhaps she can learn something about CAP in the meantime that she should have learned during Level 1.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 08:34:07 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
Really? I can think of any number of reasons why to do it that way.
a) Status symbol for NCO's and above.....just like the service hat is restricted to Officers.
b) Limited supply train of the service coats....so they limit them to those who have acheived/show commitment to the CAP program.
c) Uniformity (sort of).....you don't want C/AB Newguy thinking he has to go buy a $100 service coat....and being the only Airman in a service coat.
Not idiotic at all.
a) They have rank for that and there is no justification to further restrict wear. 39-1 doesn't restrict the wear of the service coat in any manner similar to that of the service cap (ie. by rank).
b) Perhaps....but squadrons can, and should, always attempt to recover uniforms from cadets that do not make it year. If availability is that much of a problem, I suspect that even some NCOs do not have service coats, which, of course, makes your 'uniform' argument moot.
c) If they have a service coat and are attending a more formal event, say a Wing Conference dinner or a squadron awards banquet, they should be in a coat whenever possible. Further, unless the squadron in question has perfect inspection scores (highly unlikely), I'd say their efforts should be focused on more important details other than who should or shouldn't be wearing a service coat. If the argument really is uniformity, then I'd argue no cadet should wear the service coat.
No one is suggesting they need to go out and buy anything. However, prohibiting a cadet from wearing an authorized uniform, especially something as basic as a service coat, is indeed idiotic.
Okay....
I disagree.
So....when my 18 year old cadets all decide that they want to wear flight suits to the meeting.....that's okay or they decide to wear BDUs on Blues night......those are all authorised uniforms.....it's okay to for them to do what ever they want to?
The unit command has the right and duty to set his squadron's uniform policy. Simple end of story.
If a cadet is going to an outside event not controlled by the unit commander....the leader of that event sets the policy....for example at encampment they may all have to wear an encampment hat that is not allowed by the unit commander.
It may not be what you do. I not make any sense to you.....but the basic authority is there for the commander to set policy...within the confines of the regulations.
It certainly is not cause for removing a commander.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 10:44:23 PM
Okay....
I disagree.
So....when my 18 year old cadets all decide that they want to wear flight suits to the meeting.....that's okay or they decide to wear BDUs on Blues night......those are all authorised uniforms.....it's okay to for them to do what ever they want to?
The unit command has the right and duty to set his squadron's uniform policy. Simple end of story.
If a cadet is going to an outside event not controlled by the unit commander....the leader of that event sets the policy....for example at encampment they may all have to wear an encampment hat that is not allowed by the unit commander.
It may not be what you do. I not make any sense to you.....but the basic authority is there for the commander to set policy...within the confines of the regulations.
It certainly is not cause for removing a commander.
Don't think that was the reason for removal. I think it was incompetence or a vote of no confidence. I had to wade through a veritable sea of grammatical errors to get his point.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 02, 2012, 09:19:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
The commander was replaced due to her lack of knowledge of CAP. For people bad mouthing me let me tell you something are squad would later find out that she wasnt allowing us to because she dint think it looked good for people without alot of ribbions to be wearing class A blues. again she told us that airmen werent allowed to wear class A under regulations. Actually the bigger reason she was replaced was because people who dint have who "inspired" them to join. She filled it in with her name so she got the recuriter ribbion by not showing core values. My point of that is she dint have much trust to begin with.
Please at least try to spell check your posts before hitting the Post button. This post is nearly unreadable.
As for the topic of your post, the regulations are available to
everyone. If someone tells you that regulations state so-and-so, your automatic reaction should be to research and verify yourself. If that person is incorrect, politely inform them that they are and continue on with life.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 10:44:23 PM
The unit command has the right and duty to set his squadron's uniform policy. Simple end of story.
If a cadet is going to an outside event not controlled by the unit commander....the leader of that event sets the policy....for example at encampment they may all have to wear an encampment hat that is not allowed by the unit commander.
100% on the money...
Just my $0.02
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 10:44:23 PM
The unit command has the right and duty to set his squadron's uniform policy. Simple end of story.
If a cadet is going to an outside event not controlled by the unit commander....the leader of that event sets the policy....for example at encampment they may all have to wear an encampment hat that is not allowed by the unit commander.
Concur.
That said, I view setting uniform of the day differently than excluding the wear of an authorized uniform; thats what's being discussed. Furthermore, I'm more interested in removing roadblocks than I am in adding new ones. As someone else pointed out earlier, we have more than enough b.s. regulation as it is.
I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.
BITD, uniform policy was set by pure chance and economics. We mostly wore blues to meetings and fatigues to missions and bivouacs. My first blues uniform was purchased at Wal-mart. It was black dress shoes, some navy blue pants, and a light blue dress shirt that had no pockets. Nobody said anything nasty to me or chewed me out because I wasn't wearing an actual uniform. Uniform Program? No such animal at that time.
Service coats were worn by those lucky enough to have them. Every once in a great while someone would find one at a surplus store or we would get a few from the squadron at Scott AFB. Mostly whoever fit into what we got would wear them when appropriate. It wasn't that we were trying to "not" wear a correct uniform, it's just that we didn't have them to wear.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 02, 2012, 10:44:23 PM
Okay....
I disagree.
So....when my 18 year old cadets all decide that they want to wear flight suits to the meeting.....that's okay or they decide to wear BDUs on Blues night......those are all authorised uniforms.....it's okay to for them to do what ever they want to?
The unit command has the right and duty to set his squadron's uniform policy. Simple end of story.
If a cadet is going to an outside event not controlled by the unit commander....the leader of that event sets the policy....for example at encampment they may all have to wear an encampment hat that is not allowed by the unit commander.
It may not be what you do. I not make any sense to you.....but the basic authority is there for the commander to set policy...within the confines of the regulations.
It certainly is not cause for removing a commander.
I concur.
I am thinking you have 30 Cadets and only two have a service coat it will look silly in pictures. But I guess not so much as Cadets wearing a flannel jacket with BDUs. Now I have seen really petite 13 year olds wearing their brother's service coat and they really need to cut the bottom third off.
Quote from: red_sox_fan on August 02, 2012, 09:19:08 PM
Quote from: A.Member on August 02, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 02, 2012, 06:20:51 PM
Yup. But I have heard of some units not allowing cadets to wear a service coat unless they were staff or a C/NCO and above...
If true, that's completely idioitic and a change of command is needed.
The commander was replaced due to her lack of knowledge of CAP.
All that tells me is that your whole Squadron likely has no clue of CAP. Not to be offensive, but ..
1) Because that was the best choice you had for Commander?
2) Remote Squadrons like Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron which is 100 miles from the next nearest Squadron may have no clue of what is going on and is running the program blindly. For example at Encampment you have a C/CMSgt that is extremely weak in knowledge but shucks, they are from Petticoat Junction and they only get a Cadet to Encampment once every three or four years.
*** Why do we wear color on camoflage? ***
If you look at the Air Force uniform from the Viet Nam Era you will see they wore the blue tapes with white lettering before transitioning to subdued look. CAP just never switched over whether that was to maintain a 'distictive look' or for other reasons.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on August 05, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
If you look at the Air Force uniform from the Viet Nam Era you will see they wore the blue tapes with white lettering
BTW I always liked that.
It wasn't just the USAF. The Army had gold on black and full color patches/stripes on their ODs. The military has been gradually moving more and more to the 'Maybe we don't want to be quite as visible' mentality since they ditched the blue uniforms in the Army.
Basically, once you no longer needed to see through the smoke of black powder to coordinate military actions, the desire to be harder to see has been increasing in strength. This includes making it harder to see who is an officer, NCO, or whatever.
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on August 05, 2012, 08:09:03 PM
It wasn't just the USAF. The Army had gold on black and full color patches/stripes on their ODs. The military has been gradually moving more and more to the 'Maybe we don't want to be quite as visible' mentality since they ditched the blue uniforms in the Army.
Basically, once you no longer needed to see through the smoke of black powder to coordinate military actions, the desire to be harder to see has been increasing in strength. This includes making it harder to see who is an officer, NCO, or whatever.
Yup now if key indicators were removed it would make things all the better.
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 05, 2012, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on August 05, 2012, 08:09:03 PM
It wasn't just the USAF. The Army had gold on black and full color patches/stripes on their ODs. The military has been gradually moving more and more to the 'Maybe we don't want to be quite as visible' mentality since they ditched the blue uniforms in the Army.
Basically, once you no longer needed to see through the smoke of black powder to coordinate military actions, the desire to be harder to see has been increasing in strength. This includes making it harder to see who is an officer, NCO, or whatever.
Yup now if key indicators were removed it would make things all the better.
We already had that in the Air Force when we had the Aircrew Style Name Patch. Which met it's demise because some Officers weren't saluted.
Here I thought it met its demise because it just looked ugly and strange. (My opinion perhaps...but still. I see that in pictures and just go...weird)
Quote from: PHall on August 05, 2012, 09:43:43 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on August 05, 2012, 08:43:29 PM
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on August 05, 2012, 08:09:03 PM
It wasn't just the USAF. The Army had gold on black and full color patches/stripes on their ODs. The military has been gradually moving more and more to the 'Maybe we don't want to be quite as visible' mentality since they ditched the blue uniforms in the Army.
Basically, once you no longer needed to see through the smoke of black powder to coordinate military actions, the desire to be harder to see has been increasing in strength. This includes making it harder to see who is an officer, NCO, or whatever.
Yup now if key indicators were removed it would make things all the better.
We already had that in the Air Force when we had the Aircrew Style Name Patch. Which met it's demise because some Officers weren't saluted.
I was told it was the Chief Mafia that shot that down....or at least they were the ones who got our stripes put back on (ACSNP & Stripes).
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on August 05, 2012, 10:04:35 PM
Here I thought it met its demise because it just looked ugly and strange. (My opinion perhaps...but still. I see that in pictures and just go...weird)
Actually, it looked alright, because everybody was wearing it. And the end to sewing all that crap on was welcomed by the masses.
But the zealots in AETC didn't like it because you couldn't tell somebody's grade until you were within "reading range". And people weren't being saluted...
But the folks in the field, especially those in sandy areas, liked them.
Quote from: Private Investigator on August 05, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on August 05, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
If you look at the Air Force uniform from the Viet Nam Era you will see they wore the blue tapes with white lettering
BTW I always liked that.
Ya, I wore those too! Just missed the tans tho. Loved the dark blue shirt combo...that may have been combo 5!