AF vehicles for CAP

[RiverAux]

Although it has been a while since the Air Force has transerred any aircraft or vehicles to CAP, their abilit to do so is still there in federal law.  And while I don't think we have a need for any surplus F-15s, I bet there are quite a few cars, vans, and SUVs out there that could potentially be servicable enough for CAP use.  No, I'm not talking about humvees, but regular vehicles. 

I'm not sure what the current standards are for getting those vehicles out of the federal inventory (age or mileage), but given the age of a lot of our current vehicles and the fact that we're not replacing them fast enough, a 7-year old AF van is probably still going to be better than the 15 year old CAP van. 

[flyguy06]

Thats a very good question. How does a squadron get vheciles either from the AF or local government agencies?

[SarDragon]

My last experience with getting vehicles from the AF was via DRMO, and it was a train wreck from the word go. That 7 yo AF vehicle has probably had 7 years of really hard "it's not my vehicle, why should I care" usage, and may well be in worse condition that a 15 yo CAP van bought new. Stuff goes to DRMO for a reason - it's past its useful life.

[FW]

I think that all  federal govt. vehicles must go back to GSA (including military) when they are finished with them.  The GSA auctions them off.  I doubt that they can go to CAP anymore.  However, check with your state director for more information.  (DRMO is what I'm thinking about here.)

State/local govt. vehicles are a different story.  Each state has different statutes covering the disposal of vehicles.  My advice is to get friendly with a local official to get a "donation" for the unit.

Sometimes you can get a vehicle from a "private" source.  However, CAPR 77-1 is the reg that spells things out.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

There may also be a liability issue that restricts what we could/could not get from the Air Force.

For instance: When I was a cadet, my squadron had a 70-pax bus. Yip, Wayne body, International gasoline chassis, painted Air Force blue with a white top, CAP seal decal on the side and the five-digit number underneath (old-timers: first two digits were 47 -- where was I?). My unit also had a white Dodge Fury sedan (white, state surplus) and a clapped-out Air Force short-wheelbase Dodge pickup, all marked IAW regulations. Ah, those were the days.

Nowadays, everything's a 15-pax van with tire paranoia. Would CAP insure buses, HMMWVs, fleet Taurus sedans or pickups? Not sure.

[PHall]

Almost all of the "General Purpose" vehicles used by the Air Force these days are GSA vehicles.
General purpose vehicles are the vehicles that CAP used to get from the Air Force.

About the only vehicles on base that still have US AIR FORCE on them are specialised vehicles like Fire Trucks, Refueling Trucks and Buses.

And we're not allowed to have those.

[lordmonar]

By the time the vehicles get to DRMO they have been stripped of any usable parts.

[Cecil DP]

By the time the vehicles get to DRMO they have been stripped of any usable parts.

and DRMO gets their equipment after all other government agencies have had a chance to turn it down.

[Rob Sherlin]

 You'd probably do better getting an auction permit and going to an auction where they sell vans and busses. I agree on the point made that most military vehicles go through more abuse than others. There's a lot of old school buses and vans out there that are in fairly decent condition, and other than converting them into mobile homes, most people aren't interested in them, so they usually go for pretty cheap. The only other problem you would have is the funding to do so. Then maybe throw a camo paint job on it or whatever.

[Eclipse]

Nowadays, everything's a 15-pax van with tire paranoia. Would CAP insure buses, HMMWVs, fleet Taurus sedans or pickups? Not sure.

Who would drive a bus?

In my state that requires a CDL.

As to acquiring vehicles from other sources than CAP channels - in my parts, including the region, the issue is that a lot of unit CC's can't be bothered to complete the regular vehicle requests. or when they get the a COV, perform the proper maintenance.

The vans in my AOR are the newest-looking / running 10-years old vehicles you'll ever see.  I've had no issues getting the USAF to pay for maintenance, paint jobs, and even recently some oil changes.

What they are issuing isn't "perfect" for any mission, but is acceptable for most, and the price is right.

Also, my experience with DRMO vehicles is the same as above - by the time the are treated like rentals by slick-sleeves, picked over for parts, and then held on the side for someone in the know, there's not much left of them you'd want.  And I know my wing/region has been reluctant to take on the maintenance risk of someone else's junk they want to donate when we've got vans sitting unused at wing.

[Rob Sherlin]

  If you have a small bus (I'm not talking full greyhound type or anything), it would be extremely useful for transport (people up top, gear underneath), and is actually more fuel saving than taking quite a few vehicles, to transport many members and gear. It really isn't that hard to get a CDL if your driving record is clear, and you can probably use the obtaining of the whole thing for a tax break (what else are you going to be using it for?)..

[EMT-83]

From CAPR 77-1:

Types of vehicles not permitted to be owned or operated by CAP will be determined by NHQ. Vehicles not permitted to be owned or operated by CAP include, but are not limited to:
1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) All terrain vehicles (ATV)
7) Golf cart type utility vehicle (gas or electric) except as authorized in para 2e

[Rob Sherlin]

 #4 made me laugh because I had a neighbor when I was younger who had a half-track (back end was like a tank) and use to tear up the streets (they made him sign it over to some museum or pay a huge fine from what I hear). But, what are the regs classifying as a bus? (you can consider an extended van as a bus in some states)

[EMT-83]

Well, let's see... we had to take the back seat out of the vans. That should provide some guidance.

[Stonewall]

I bought a new radio for work and had CAP channels added.  Now I got us a high speed utility cart that is "street legal".  Too bad we're not authorized to use it, it rocks.  I'd even bring it to CAP activities on my dime ($0 because we have a trailer).

[Rob Sherlin]

OK..So,let me ask this,.....if you have a CDL, do you think it would make a difference with NHQ on approving such things?

ATV's are not allowed but golf carts are under certain provisions?....That's WHACKED!!!!

[Stonewall]

No.

I have a current AF drivers license, flight line drivers license, graduate of EVOC and am "rated" with Humvees, ATVs, 6-wheeled utility vehicle and about 6 other things I don't the accronyms for.  I still can't drive any of things while in a CAP status.

[Rob Sherlin]

 Stonewall "Ultimate Kirt" (he he)....I know you're probably more than qualified to drive a small bus (or even a large one), but, having a state licsence might make all the difference (it's almost like even though you know how to fly a plane, you still have to have the licsence to go anywhere)

[RiverAux]

I think that all  federal govt. vehicles must go back to GSA (including military) when they are finished with them.  The GSA auctions them off.  I doubt that they can go to CAP anymore.  However, check with your state director for more information.  (DRMO is what I'm thinking about here.)

State/local govt. vehicles are a different story.  Each state has different statutes covering the disposal of vehicles.  My advice is to get friendly with a local official to get a "donation" for the unit.

Sometimes you can get a vehicle from a "private" source.  However, CAPR 77-1 is the reg that spells things out.

Federal law says that Air Force vehicles can go to CAP.  Perhaps there is a conflicting law, but if it is just some internal govenrment practice that would be superceded by the law. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I think that all  federal govt. vehicles must go back to GSA (including military) when they are finished with them.  The GSA auctions them off.  I doubt that they can go to CAP anymore.  However, check with your state director for more information.  (DRMO is what I'm thinking about here.)

State/local govt. vehicles are a different story.  Each state has different statutes covering the disposal of vehicles.  My advice is to get friendly with a local official to get a "donation" for the unit.

Sometimes you can get a vehicle from a "private" source.  However, CAPR 77-1 is the reg that spells things out.

Federal law says that Air Force vehicles can go to CAP.  Perhaps there is a conflicting law, but if it is just some internal govenrment practice that would be superceded by the law. 

If the vehicles are actually GSA motor pool cars, they're not Air Force vehicles to begin with. They're on loan. So that shuts out those cars.

[Stonewall]

I know you're probably more than qualified to drive a small bus (or even a large one), but, having a state licsence might make all the difference (it's almost like even though you know how to fly a plane, you still have to have the licsence to go anywhere)

I agree.  I think CAP members who get a CAP DL should be required to demonstrate their ability to drive a 15 (12 pax) van.  In DCWG we had a 15 pax van and utility trailer that we pulled behind.  It ain't easy to drive 12 screaming cadets in a big van plus pull that big trailer that seems to sway all over the place.  I think some training should have been in order.

WIWAC we had an Army Reservist that would sign out an Army Deuce and a Half for CAP activities. 

[Eclipse]

OK..So,let me ask this,.....if you have a CDL, do you think it would make a difference with NHQ on approving such things?

I doubt it - bringing in vehicles that require a special license to operate is not a good idea in our program.  I certainly wouldn't let it happen in any of my units - lose the one driver you have and you can't even get rid of the thing, let alone use it.

ATV's are not allowed but golf carts are under certain provisions?....That's WHACKED!!!!

Almost immediately after a serious accident involving cadets and golf carts last year, a move was made to ban the carts completely, then some high-visibility activities that use, and even own carts and similar started to complain and an exemption was made for these activities.

They have to be National or Regional activities, and for the most part its the ones already established - you won't be able to use them at your local pancake fly-in, etc.

How they are inherently "safer" at a national activity vs. a local one is beyond me.

[swamprat86]

WIWAC NJ Wing had two 52 PAX bus, a Deuce and a half, a refrigeration truck, and an assortment of other vehicle types including the vans.

Ahh, the Cold War era.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Almost immediately after a serious accident involving cadets and golf carts last year, a move was made to ban the carts completely, then some high-visibility activities that use, and even own carts and similar started to complain and an exemption was made for these activities.

They have to be National or Regional activities, and for the most part its the ones already established - you won't be able to use them at your local pancake fly-in, etc.

How they are inherently "safer" at a national activity vs. a local one is beyond me.

They're not safer, but you can bet enforcement is different at a national or regional activity than at a local one -- or, at least, that's what the Powers That Be may be banking on. The common sense that members should have isn't always so common. And while common sense can't be enforced, tighter policy can.

[Viper QA]

Most AF vehicles these days, including vehicles used on the flightline are on lease programs and are turned over every 4 years or so. That's why you see vehicles that are colors other than blue. They lease lots of whatever is on the production line at the time and fits the need, especially vans and step-vans. They (AF) do buy some vehicles, but most are leased or GSA, which is a whole different matter. Those are kept for a certain amount of years or miles and then turned back into GSA who auctions them off. What I do see being outright purchased are the six passenger pick-up trucks. They seemed to hang around for years. I'm not sure how CAP would go about getting vehicles that the AF no longer needs.

[ol'fido]

In Illinois, we used to be able to go to the state CMS depot in Springfield and get items that had been turned in as surplus by the various state agencies. Then they decided that since we could get stuff from DRMO that that was double dipping so they shut off the state surplus. You could get just about anything there from old BDUs  to the big commercial size John boats in woodland cammie that I think came from a Combat Engineer company.

But then again these days the state is so broke that I would be afraid of anything I got there vehicle wise.  I work for DOC and the van I drive every day(12 pax Ford just like the CAP vans except for the cage behind the front seats) is a 1992 model with about two square foot of the body rusted away and a piece of 1" aluminum pipe bent into the shape of a gate handle to pull the driver's door shut. My door key will unlock just about any Ford van we have. And this is one of the better of the six large Ford vans we have.

[cap235629]

well maybe we will see more non GSA vehicles now that we have bailed out the Auto Industry.  Remember all the K-Cars the government had in inventory after we bailed out Chrysler?

[argentip]

Another reason for not letting CAP have busses and other large-type vehicles is probably insurance.  My guess would be that CAP's insurance rates would go up significantly if we added these vehicles back into our line ups.

[PHall]

Another reason for not letting CAP have busses and other large-type vehicles is probably insurance.  My guess would be that CAP's insurance rates would go up significantly if we added these vehicles back into our line ups.

The reason for CAP not having busses was an accident that happened about 15 years ago in California.

Poorly trained CAP driver driving a poorly maintained Air Force bus.

Result, one totalled bus with numerous injuries to include one non-member who ended up a paraplegic.

Took about five years for all of the lawsuits to play out.

[afgeo4]

Two vehicles I still see in Blue and with Air Force plates (and not GSA) are:

1. Flightline (aircrew) shuttle busses (pax box van).
2. Pick-ups, crew cab, mostly 4x4 (primarily in Security Forces, EOD, Services and Civil Engineering units).

Both would be VERY useful for the operations side of the house as SAR and C&C vehicles.

[RiverAux]

Those are really the sorts of things I was talking about. 

[PHall]

Two vehicles I still see in Blue and with Air Force plates (and not GSA) are:

1. Flightline (aircrew) shuttle busses (pax box van).
2. Pick-ups, crew cab, mostly 4x4 (primarily in Security Forces, EOD, Services and Civil Engineering units).

Both would be VERY useful for the operations side of the house as SAR and C&C vehicles.

You know, usually by the time those "specialised" vehicles get to DRMO, they're pretty nasty.

The last "crew bus" (aka box van) we had in my unit before I retired a couple years ago was 5 years old when we got it (it came from aircraft maintenance) and we turned it in to DRMO when it was 9 years old because the transmission died.

[RiverAux]

I would hope that it goes without saying that we wouldn't just take any old piece of trash that was available, but that we would be pretty choosy about which vehicles we try to get. 

Heck, anyone who has gone to a DRMO knows that there is a lot of junk of all kinds there that we would never think about taking, but there are occassionally some great items.  The same thing would no doubt be the case with vehicles. 

[FW]

^I remember one guy who went to DRMO and tried to take a submarine.  What the wing was going to do with it was anyone's guess.  Luckily, even though the sub was "free", the battery bank costs about $1 million.  I told him if he would buy the batteries and, if he would get them installed at his expense, he could get it for us.  I never heard about the sub again  

[Tubacap]

^That is awesome!  I have never been to DRMO, but it definitely intrigues me to see what is there.  Is there an online inventory that we have access to?

[Sgt. Savage]

1) I don't know if it's legal, and I suspect it wasn't, but an ANG E-7 / CAP member borrowed a bus for a CAP event. I don't think anyone that would have cared knew enough to object.

2) Maybe the vehicle situation could use some rethinking. If we had a GSAR mission and needed to move to a forward operating base, we couldn't move our gear and people in 8 trips. The math says you don't drive everyone (even cadets) to an event that's only 1/2 hour away. 8 trips = no less than 8 hours (round trips) This could mean days of mobilizing a squadron for a GSAR. A better way is really needed.

[argentip]

^That is awesome!  I have never been to DRMO, but it definitely intrigues me to see what is there.  Is there an online inventory that we have access to?

It is my understanding that there are only certain things that CAP is able to get from DRMO and that requests have to go through your wing's State Director.  Your SD may be able to negotiate items that aren't on the "approved" list as well.

[badger bob]

CAP currently has a federally appropriated line item in the Air Force budget for vehicle purchases. Currently, the appropriated funds only allow the purchase of around 35 vehicles per year.

For 2009, CAP is currently evaluating the purchase of full sized 12p vans; 7-8 passenger minivan/ crossover; 4 door sedan; 4 door crew cab 4x4 pickups and full sized SUV 4x4s. 2006, 2007, and 2008 were all full sized vans.

CAP is allowed to screen (recieve by transfer) vehicles from the DRMO including transfers for the Air Force. Normally, those transfers work the best if CAP members have advance knowledge of vehicles the AF is replacing and advaance knowledge of the vehicle condition. When CAP recieves a vehicle from any source other than NHQ purchases, the wing is responsible for all maintenance and repair  costs for 12 months. NHQ CAP and CAP-USAF must both approve vehicles or aircraft from any source.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, we have something like 900 vehicles and we're replacing about 3 dozen a year.  That is not anywhere close to what is needed to keep a really safe fleet on the road.  At that rate it will take 26 years to replace all our vehicles.  The message I get from that is that the AF is wanting to get out of the the CAP vehicle business and that it won't be long before the number of CAP vehicles is cut in half as we're forced to get rid of 15-year old vans and not see them replaced. 

[badger bob]

The NHQ staff is aware that the 35 vehicles will not keep our fleet current.

The DEC 2008 BOG was asked and did approve lobbying to increase the vehicle replacement budget from 35 to 91 vehicles per year

3. Increasing Vehicle Procurement Funding
• Current procurement funding does not allow for required vehicle
replacements for CAP's 1500 squadrons.
• Current funding only allows replacing 36 vehicles a year out of the 91
that are needed.
• Current funding directly impacts CAP's readiness to conduct AFassigned SAR/DR/HLS operations as well as cadet and aerospace
education programs.

[RiverAux]

I wasn't doubting that NHQ wasn't doing what it could, but they don't really have any say in the matter, which is why I was basically critisizing the AF.

[SaBeR33]

1) I don't know if it's legal, and I suspect it wasn't, but an ANG E-7 / CAP member borrowed a bus for a CAP event. I don't think anyone that would have cared knew enough to object.

A CAWG SM who was a SMSgt in the CA ANG did this as well on at least two separate occasions to take a bunch of us cadets from So-Cal to the Watsonville Fly-In in Nor-Cal.

A funny event happened years later involving one of the SMSgt's family members while I was at Pope AFB assisting the CAP-USAF LO who was assigned to the SCWG encampment being held at Fort Bragg. The SMSgt had a rather uncommon last name (that I can no longer remember) that I saw on the uniform of another A1C (who was also Filipino like said SMSgt) at Pope's MPF who was helping me and the LO. I asked if she was related to the SMSgt with the same name. Her eyes suddenly got big and said in an excited voice, "Yes, he's my dad! Do you know him?!" I told her where I knew him from and we spoke for a few minutes. Talk about about a small world.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

Hmmmm. I like the idea of humvees. Just imagine driving around base with one of those 

[afgeo4]

Hmmmm. I like the idea of humvees. Just imagine driving around base with one of those 

1. No one on any military base is impressed with humvees or people who drive them. They are, simply put, work trucks.
2. Humvees do not meet DOT safety requirements for legal operation in the civilian world (not street legal) and would require extensive upgrades to meet the standards.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

Hmmmm. I like the idea of humvees. Just imagine driving around base with one of those 

1. No one on any military base is impressed with humvees or people who drive them. They are, simply put, work trucks.
2. Humvees do not meet DOT safety requirements for legal operation in the civilian world (not street legal) and would require extensive upgrades to meet the standards.

Ok. I understand but I was just saying that I would love to drive a Humvee. Not saying I'm going to try to impress people with it (Who is there to impress?). And well with the safety requirements, I was just thinking using them on base, unless otherwise needed.

[♠SARKID♠]

If you want a humvee, you can shell out $50 for a street legalized one.
http://www.xhumvee.com/

[Spike]

2. Humvees do not meet DOT safety requirements for legal operation in the civilian world (not street legal) and would require extensive upgrades to meet the standards.

Really.....I can count off dozens of times I drove mine down an Interstate from one Post to Another.  Can't go above 60 MPH, but it seems to work. 

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

2. Humvees do not meet DOT safety requirements for legal operation in the civilian world (not street legal) and would require extensive upgrades to meet the standards.

Really.....I can count off dozens of times I drove mine down an Interstate from one Post to Another.  Can't go above 60 MPH, but it seems to work.

I bet that was pretty fun. I would love to do something like that. 

[afgeo4]

2. Humvees do not meet DOT safety requirements for legal operation in the civilian world (not street legal) and would require extensive upgrades to meet the standards.

Really.....I can count off dozens of times I drove mine down an Interstate from one Post to Another.  Can't go above 60 MPH, but it seems to work.

DoD owned and operated combat vehicles are exempt from U.S. DOT rules. Humvees do not have sufficient roll cages, door beams for side impact protection, padded dashboards, 5mph bumpers, and old versions don't meet seat belt requirements. Because of these reasons, the vehicles cannot be sold or donated for civilian use and must be destroyed (cut in half or scrapped) upon end of their service life in the military. Civilians often purchase these cut in half vehicles and put them back together. Many fix the street illegal issues, but most just drive the vehicles illegally. The Hummer has these issues fixed of course, but they cost well over $75,000.

[BillB]

One question that has always come up, if you remove seats in a USAF surplus bus to limit seating to 12 or 15, and use the empty space for communications equipment is this still a bus or is it now a comm truck?  I've noticed that many small churches in North Florida have obtained surplus buses. So they are available, most are drive away. Limiting the seating to be equivlant to a 15 pa van, and installing mobile VHF and HF radios  would meet a need in CAP. But is the vehicle a bus or a Comm vehicle? What does CAP consider as a "bus"? If a bus seating is limited and converted is it still a bus?

[PHall]

One question that has always come up, if you remove seats in a USAF surplus bus to limit seating to 12 or 15, and use the empty space for communications equipment is this still a bus or is it now a comm truck?  I've noticed that many small churches in North Florida have obtained surplus buses. So they are available, most are drive away. Limiting the seating to be equivlant to a 15 pa van, and installing mobile VHF and HF radios  would meet a need in CAP. But is the vehicle a bus or a Comm vehicle? What does CAP consider as a "bus"? If a bus seating is limited and converted is it still a bus?

What does your state's vehicle code say? Would it be registered as a "bus"? If it is registered as a bus it's a no-go since National will not allow us to have a bus anymore, period.
This restriction is the result of an accident where CAP had to pay a large amount of money in the settlement, so I wouldn't bet on it changing anytime soon.