Agenda

[Smokey]

BTW....Weren't there supposed to be several more uniform change items??

Lt Col White headed up a committee that had a number of other changes that were supposed to be presented.  Any idea what happend to them??

Some included  changes to the ABU as BDUs were being phased out, some changes to the service dress, cutting back on CAP corporate uniform styles, etc.

[Major Carrales]

I would suggest that instead of a "phase out" have the two authorized forever, when (as you claim) the ultramarine runs out it will solve itself naturally.  Then only old die hards will continue with ultramarine.  In fact, I will bet money that if this were the policy by 2015 some of the "lets get rid of the ultramarine" crowd would be the ones wearing them and seeking them out.

I'm not making the claim on not being able to get Ultramarine, Vanguard is (or at least that is what is indicated in the Agenda).

BTW - I'll take that bet.  Given the choice, anyone who can will change out their tapes in the first 6 months - mine will be ordered the day they are approved.  After the first year, the majority of Blue field uniforms will be dark blue tapes, and moe than 1/2 the BDUs will as well.

That's the way it always begins.  Everyone wants the news stuff, even I would have it. The "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" nametapes did that same thing, I did not buy them. But then, as the new stuff loses its "sheen," there will be those old-timers who keep it on and relish them as a sign of "been there done that."  

Especially anyone who is at this time a Cadet NCO...a time of especially acute nostalgia.  As they transition to Cadet Officer and eventualy CAP Officers they will maintain the "old set" until eventually you see them on a new set of BDUs.

"Why are your nametapes faded, Capt Nix?" Says a new cadet to the 26 year-old SPAATZEN turned Senior member.

"Well, that is how we wore them when I was a Chief." He replies.

It is the nature to be different, different with a link to the past is the same.

Now, old timer, you have to live (reference to the 2021 "Doomsday") to 2015 to see if you win the bet.  Shall we say one GOLD(brass) Sacagawea (sp) Dollar?

[Eclipse]

Now, old timer, you have to live (reference to the 2021 "Doomsday") to 2015 to see if you win the bet.  Shall we say one GOLD(brass) Sacajawea (sp) Dollar?

Works for me.  

[Eclipse]

Lt Col White headed up a committee that had a number of other changes that were supposed to be presented.  Any idea what happened to them??

He doesn't play with CAP anymore...no idea what happened to his committee.

[Major Carrales]

Now, old timer, you have to live (reference to the 2021 "Doomsday") to 2015 to see if you win the bet.  Shall we say one GOLD(brass) Sacagawea (sp) Dollar?

Works for me.  :-)

I've got three in my CAP First aid-kit (satire on our Health Officer's Track...or lack of resolve to make it an operational one), thus, when we need serious medical help...change for the pay phone.

[DogCollar]

Here are some comments I sent forward to my wing/cc:

I found the agenda for the Feb National Board meeting is available. In reading it, I found Item 29j "Change of Embroidery Insignia on AF-Style Uniforms" to be interesting. I would ask that you offer the following as amendments to this item:
    Expand this to include the field uniform, aka bbdu's.
    Increase the phase in period to 36 months. This period would serve to spread out the financial impact to the members.
    Add a requirement that all insignia, badges, and tapes must have the same color backgrounds during the phase in period.

   Also, in reading item 29g, "Wear of Military Decorations and Badges on Corporate Uniforms", I recalled reading in an ICL that military ribbons were authorized if the awarding service permits their wear on civilain uniforms. At the time, I had sent a request to the Army to see what their rules were. Their response was roughly if the organization allows it, the Army will allow it. Since CAP did not expressly state, in my opinion, that is was permitted, I let the issue lie. I would ask that the services (USAF, USA, USMC, USN, UCSG) be officially asked for their authorization to wear their respective ribbons and/or badges on the CAP corporate uniforms. That would remove any confusion or question as to the appropriateness of wearing military ribbons and/or badges.

   Item 29a,"Silver Braid on CAP Corporate Uniform", a suggestion is made to replace the comissioning braid on the service dress uniforms with another color. Obviously, blue would be the best choice, but if that was not acceptable to the AF, perhaps red could be considered. It would be a nod to CAP's heritage, as red was used when CAP was first established.

   Item 14,"HC - Ch. Services Training and Promotion Requirements", para 5 says "Since the SLS and CLC can now be completed online". When did this occur? I know the materials are available online, but actual completion of the courses? I'm sure you noticed it, but I wanted to bring it up.

   Item 8,"DP - CAP Member Standardized Recognition Program", instead of a regulation, a handbook or pamphlet should be developed. It would provide guidance to commanders without restricting their ability to reward performance. In some online forums, members have mentioned that some commanders do not submit/approve awards because they have no guidance, while others submit awards that are over-the-top.

Obviously, I looked at the Chaplain Corp item and I, too, wondered about online SLS and CLC.  Chaplain Woodard seems to believe that this is presently available.  I haven't seen anything that has led to the belief that those courses are going to ever be online.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with Chaplains needing to take those courses for promotion, however, I certainly want to be sure that Chaplain Woodard is correct before making this proposal.  Has anyone else heard about online SLS and CLC?

[Eclipse]

Has anyone else heard about online SLS and CLC?

No.

He's either confused (ala Level 1 is "online") or misquoted.  There's no allowance for SLS/CLC/TLC or UCC to be completed online, and considering the first three are updated discussion-based curriculum designed as much to being members together as to impart information, online completion would very much miss the point.

Most of the other things we do online are either prerequisites to related training where the concepts are both reinforced or practical execution is required in an operational environment.

[Strick]

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought we did not need AF approval for our corporate uniform so why ask permission to use the blue braid.  Why change the silver?  IT cost money to membership.  They need to leave the uniforms alone .

[Pylon]

Correct me if I am wrong, I thought we did not need AF approval for our corporate uniform so why ask permission to use the blue braid.

I would imagine because the blue braid itself is an Air Force item.  It's basically taking a part of the Air Force uniform and slapping it on our corporate threads.  The Air Force controls use of all of their uniforms and any associated appurtenances, in theory.

[dwb]

I would have to non-concur on any color changes for cloth rank insignia.  The ABU is in our future, even if it's 10 years down the line.  We can just wait until then to change the background color of our patches.

Some interesting stuff on there.  I'm glad to see someone thinks about what it's like to wear dress uniforms in the northern parts of the country.  We just had to wait until we had a CAP/CC from Michigan to get these things on the agenda.

[Strick]

Then why do we wear the blue AF slides , flight cap ectc with the CSU? 

[Pylon]

Then why do we wear the blue AF slides , flight cap ectc with the CSU? 

Great question.  Some people are already looking into the legality and appropriateness of that.  The original uniform itself was pushed through from concept to production at a dizzying speed, and thus a lot of these issues were never considered when it was first created.

[Strick]

understood

[AlphaSigOU]

Personally, I can do without the gaudy silver sleeve braid on the CSU service dress jacket. Red sleeve braid - even though it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage - isn't going to help the gaudiness factor either.

Back in the olden days of black and white mess dress uniforms, CAP used to wear ultramarine blue sleeve and shoulder board braid. That might be distinctive enough to keep Ma Blue from having kittens sideways over dark blue commisioning braid - or eliminate it altogether. (Yea, I know, we're looking for a way to permanently bury ultramarine blue...  )

Keep the silver chinstrap on the corporate bus driver cap, again if Ma Blue doesn't get conniptions over the black chinstrap for corporates.

The AF blue shoulder marks - just add CAP to 'em and be done with 'em. However, some ya-hoo will put it on AF-style and Ma Blue will have a fit.

[Eclipse]

Personally, I can do without the gaudy silver sleeve braid on the CSU service dress jacket. Red sleeve braid - even though it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage - isn't going to help the gaudiness factor either.

The silver can go, and blank would be fine with me, but as to any other color than black, are we talking "RED" or "RED"?

[AlphaSigOU]

Personally, I can do without the gaudy silver sleeve braid on the CSU service dress jacket. Red sleeve braid - even though it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage - isn't going to help the gaudiness factor either.

The silver can go, and blank would be fine with me, but as to any other color than black, are we talking "RED" or "RED"?

"Old school" CAP epaulets and sleeve braid on WWII officer 'pinks and greens'/EM wools (no braid) were bright red.

And I'd betcha someone will have nightmares over maroon sleeve braid... what next, back to the 'Barry Boards'? 

Considering the corporate all-weather jacket and overcoat are black, I wouldn't have a problem with black as CSU braid. Maybe make the braid a little wider (3/4" wide) rather than 1/2" as in the AF dark blue braid?

(Never even noticed it - 1000 posts on CAPTalk - woohoo!  )

[lordmonar]

Page 78, Commander's Badge:

"...NHQ Comments: Vanguard is already in the processing of manufacturing a cloth
commanders badge. This badge is currently authorized for sitting unit and group
commanders so the change, if approved, would authorize any one who has ever
served as a unit or group commander to wear the badge..."

I'm not aware of the CC's badge ever being authorized anywhere on the BDU's, the fact that there isn't an embroidered one made yet not withstanding.

If you want to have former CC's wear the badge below the seam, on service dress and corporates, when they step down, fine, but not on the BDU - sitting only.  And then you have to make changes to the pluto and the ES badge placement as well, or better still, lose them altogether.

Also, please authorize the dark tapes on everything, please, please, please.  It would not be cost prohibitive for the average member, especially with a reasonable phase-out.

I submitted the suggestion to create a cloth badge for bdus, alowing to be worn on the flight suit and to allow former commanders to wear it below the line over two years ago.

I wonder if it was my suggestion or someone else's who finally got it on the NB agenda.

On further reading....I think this is in fact the suggestion I submitted!  Cool!  Suggestions from the field do make it to the NB!  :clap:

[AlphaSigOU]

Yay! Give that man a Pabst Blue Ribbon! (Or whatever potent potable of your choice...)

[O-Rex]

Personally, I can do without the gaudy silver sleeve braid on the CSU service dress jacket. Red sleeve braid - even though it hearkens back to old-school CAP heritage - isn't going to help the gaudiness factor either.

The silver can go, and blank would be fine with me, but as to any other color than black, are we talking "RED" or "RED"?

Naw, maybe black (?)

Army uses it on the Service Greens, at least for the next couple of years.  Even when they phase out, black mohair trim is not hard to find. . .

I like the corp uniform, but the silver sleeve braid makes one look like the doorman at the Hilton. 

Eclipse:  A number of folks made the suggestion about the CC's badge, yours-truly included (my gripe was that CC's paid five bucks for something they wouldn't get to keep.)  don't feel bad: I invented the question mark, and never got credit for it either

You never know, maybe a few more voices made the difference; reminds me of the last line of Alice's Restaurant, about enough people forming a protest/conspiracy, if any of you remember it.

Nontheless, you are a true brother and a kindred soul, so I second AlphaSigOU's motion for that PBR!!  :clap:

[RiverAux]

Then why do we wear the blue AF slides , flight cap ectc with the CSU? 

Great question.  Some people are already looking into the legality and appropriateness of that.  The original uniform itself was pushed through from concept to production at a dizzying speed, and thus a lot of these issues were never considered when it was first created.

The AF made CAP do several changes to the CSU before it was approved in this final version.  I suppose they could change their mind and say they now have an objection to something they didn't before.