Agenda

[arajca]

The Feb 2009 Agenda is out!

[Eclipse]

Care to share?  Or will it remain hidden?

[Pylon]

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/NB_2009_Feb_Agenda_BD2E1427664DC.pdf

[Eclipse]

Page 78, Commander's Badge:

"...NHQ Comments: Vanguard is already in the processing of manufacturing a cloth
commanders badge. This badge is currently authorized for sitting unit and group
commanders so the change, if approved, would authorize any one who has ever
served as a unit or group commander to wear the badge..."

I'm not aware of the CC's badge ever being authorized anywhere on the BDU's, the fact that there isn't an embroidered one made yet not withstanding.

If you want to have former CC's wear the badge below the seam, on service dress and corporates, when they step down, fine, but not on the BDU - sitting only.  And then you have to make changes to the pluto and the ES badge placement as well, or better still, lose them altogether.

Also, please authorize the dark tapes on everything, please, please, please.  It would not be cost prohibitive for the average member, especially with a reasonable phase-out.

[bosshawk]

FYI: the agenda is 90 pages: excellent for inducing sleep.  A huge number of items to be covered: they will need all of the two days of the meeting.

[arajca]

Here are some comments I sent forward to my wing/cc:

I found the agenda for the Feb National Board meeting is available. In reading it, I found Item 29j "Change of Embroidery Insignia on AF-Style Uniforms" to be interesting. I would ask that you offer the following as amendments to this item:
    Expand this to include the field uniform, aka bbdu's.
    Increase the phase in period to 36 months. This period would serve to spread out the financial impact to the members.
    Add a requirement that all insignia, badges, and tapes must have the same color backgrounds during the phase in period.

   Also, in reading item 29g, "Wear of Military Decorations and Badges on Corporate Uniforms", I recalled reading in an ICL that military ribbons were authorized if the awarding service permits their wear on civilain uniforms. At the time, I had sent a request to the Army to see what their rules were. Their response was roughly if the organization allows it, the Army will allow it. Since CAP did not expressly state, in my opinion, that is was permitted, I let the issue lie. I would ask that the services (USAF, USA, USMC, USN, UCSG) be officially asked for their authorization to wear their respective ribbons and/or badges on the CAP corporate uniforms. That would remove any confusion or question as to the appropriateness of wearing military ribbons and/or badges.

   Item 29a,"Silver Braid on CAP Corporate Uniform", a suggestion is made to replace the comissioning braid on the service dress uniforms with another color. Obviously, blue would be the best choice, but if that was not acceptable to the AF, perhaps red could be considered. It would be a nod to CAP's heritage, as red was used when CAP was first established.

   Item 14,"HC - Ch. Services Training and Promotion Requirements", para 5 says "Since the SLS and CLC can now be completed online". When did this occur? I know the materials are available online, but actual completion of the courses? I'm sure you noticed it, but I wanted to bring it up.

   Item 8,"DP - CAP Member Standardized Recognition Program", instead of a regulation, a handbook or pamphlet should be developed. It would provide guidance to commanders without restricting their ability to reward performance. In some online forums, members have mentioned that some commanders do not submit/approve awards because they have no guidance, while others submit awards that are over-the-top.

[MIKE]

h. Optional Shoulder Patches on BDU: Col Benckert, VT/CC
When the Civil Air Patrol adopted the wear of the reverse U.S. flag on the BDU
uniform several years ago, previously authorized special activity and school patches
were moved to the pocket. In some wings, this action moved to relocate special
activity/organizational patches that have significant historical ties both to esprit de
corps within the wing and qualifications.

Proposal: That the National Board approves, at the discretion of the member's
wing commander, the wear of previously approved optional patches in place of the
wing patch.

Say what?  If it was a previously approved activity patch... it would be in CAPM 39-1, and would have moved to the left pocket with the addition of the reversed flag.  Seems to me that someone is seeking authorization for some kind of not in CAPM 39-1 i.e. unauthorized home-grown activity patch.

[Pylon]

h. Optional Shoulder Patches on BDU: Col Benckert, VT/CC
When the Civil Air Patrol adopted the wear of the reverse U.S. flag on the BDU
uniform several years ago, previously authorized special activity and school patches
were moved to the pocket. In some wings, this action moved to relocate special
activity/organizational patches that have significant historical ties both to esprit de
corps within the wing and qualifications.

Proposal: That the National Board approves, at the discretion of the member's
wing commander, the wear of previously approved optional patches in place of the
wing patch.

Say what?  If it was a previously approved activity patch... it would be in CAPM 39-1, and would have moved to the left pocket with the addition of the reversed flag.  Seems to me that someone is seeking authorization for some kind of not in CAPM 39-1 i.e. unauthorized home-grown activity patch.

It sounds like they're talking about how Hawk Mountain grads in PAWG wore/wear the Hawk patch in place of the Wing patch instead of in the proper activity patch location.

Frankly, I have to non-concur.  If an activity or qualification warrants a patch, get it approved as an activity/qualification patch and wear it where all of the other activity/qualification patches go. 

[Eclipse]

Pylon got there first...   

[MIKE]

HMRS not withstanding, some wings up this way do have/had patches for in-house activities that you will not find in the manual...  I can't speak specific to VTWG, but I know of a few others including one right here in MAWG. 

[Eclipse]

HMRS not withstanding, some wings up this way do have/had patches for in-house activities that you will not find in the manual...  I can't speak specific to VTWG, but I know of a few others including one right here in MAWG. 

But those aren't approved in any case, and wouldn't be covered by this change.

[MIKE]

But those aren't approved in any case, and wouldn't be covered by this change.

Apparently the VT/CC thinks differently, else he would have got into specifics...

[PhoenixRisen]

If CAP wants to provide a secure web portal for official business, we could do that, but at what cost? My law firm requires official business to be conducted thru our servers and email, so that we don't import viruses or other banned software. If CAP does that, that would be great.

Found that under a proposal regarding confidentiality of e-mail.  Maybe all the stuff I posted (and that was previously posted) on the subject might become a reality.

[RiverAux]

Seems like the Chief of Chaplains is doing what he can to try to get Chaplain promotion requirements integrated with what other senior members are supposed to do (very commendable), but NHQ doesn't want to go along.  Basically they seem to say that because chaplains are "professionals" making them do what other seniors do will hurt CAP.  

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Ta da!  Proposal to extend NIMS deadlines -- I told you that it was coming....

--

Judging by some of the proposals, there seems to be a little bit of infighting going on between some members of the National Board and the NEC and the NB members are looking to keep some control in their hands.  

---
Seems like CAP-USAF was out to lunch and didn't comment on much this time.  
----
Who thinks that commanders who sew on a commanders badge in one place when they are in command are actually going to take the time to swith it to a differenct place when they are no longer in that position?  Why in the world do we need to identify former commanders anyway?
---
Seems like everyone non-concurs with any items requiring AF approval automatically.  Seems like turning something down because you would have to ask the AF to approve it is sort of stupid.  

[Major Carrales]

Also, please authorize the dark tapes on everything, please, please, please.  It would not be cost prohibitive for the average member, especially with a reasonable phase-out.

I just dumped a pretty penny on setting up nametapes et al on BDUs, plus the 15 plus new cadets at Kingsville to get them up there at quite a significant cost to me and cadets parents (some cadets did odd jobs to pay for it)  It has not been easy, especially in this economy when Cadet Parents are between jobs or making major cuts due to lost funds (real, not theory, in these cases)

I don't think making changes to BDUs is a way to go, in fact I will lobby against it strongly. Dark blue tapes on BBDUs will be fine, or on whatever replaces the BDUs. 

Start thinking with your head and wallet.

[lordmonar]

Page 78, Commander's Badge:

"...NHQ Comments: Vanguard is already in the processing of manufacturing a cloth
commanders badge. This badge is currently authorized for sitting unit and group
commanders so the change, if approved, would authorize any one who has ever
served as a unit or group commander to wear the badge..."

I'm not aware of the CC's badge ever being authorized anywhere on the BDU's, the fact that there isn't an embroidered one made yet not withstanding.

If you want to have former CC's wear the badge below the seam, on service dress and corporates, when they step down, fine, but not on the BDU - sitting only.  And then you have to make changes to the pluto and the ES badge placement as well, or better still, lose them altogether.

Also, please authorize the dark tapes on everything, please, please, please.  It would not be cost prohibitive for the average member, especially with a reasonable phase-out.

I submitted the suggestion to create a cloth badge for bdus, alowing to be worn on the flight suit and to allow former commanders to wear it below the line over two years ago.

I wonder if it was my suggestion or someone else's who finally got it on the NB agenda.

[Eclipse]

There's no way NHQ can accommodate units and members who are fronting for cadets and others in large numbers - if you choose to do that, good on 'ye, but that doesn't change the per-uniform cost, nor should that influence uniform policy.

$10-15 a uniform, with a multi-year phase in isn't going to kill anyone. (the actual cost is more like $3 a shirt, but most suppliers require you buy 3 tapes at a time.  Some creative ordering can help soften the cost).

Considering that VG seems unable to get ultramarine anymore (which is weird since its readily available all over the place), I'd say its likely on the Blue Field Uniform, and, after some gnashing of teeth by Big brother, will go on the BDU as well.

Now, if they time it right, and let's say its 2011 for ABU's, then they could sundown ultramarine tapes the same time the authorize the ABU, and we all move on smiling.

I will say that VG's challenges in getting Ultramarine bode well for our getting at least dark blue, if not "other" if and when ABU's come down the street.

[Major Carrales]

There's no way NHQ can accommodate units and members who are fronting for cadets and others in large numbers - if you choose to do that, good on 'ye, but that doesn't change the per-uniform cost, nor should that influence uniform policy.

$10-15 a uniform, with a multi-year phase in isn't going to kill anyone.

Considering that VG seems unable to get ultramarine anymore (which is weird since its readily available all over the place), I'd say its likely on the Blue Field Uniform, and, after some gnashing of teeth by Big brother, will go on the BDU as well.

Now, if they time it right, and let's say its 2011 for ABU's, then they could sundown ultramarine tapes the same time the authorize the ABU, and we all move on smiling.

I will say that VG's challenges in getting Ultramarine bode well for our getting at least dark blue, if not "other" if and when ABU's come down the street.

We are not fronting cadets anything, I'm thinking of their parents.  Unhappy parents means <<GONE>> cadets.  These are trying times in a lot of places and I'll be dog gone if were are going to make people waste money just so that some long time uniform focused people can see a minute change.

But I digress a bit, lest you remind me that I'm about looking for compromises and solutions to these things.

I would suggest that instead of a "phase out" have the two authorized forever, when (as you claim) the ultramarine runs out it will solve itself naturally.  Then only old die hards will continue with ultramarine.  In fact, I will bet money that if this were the policy by 2015 some of the "lets get rid of the ultramarine" crowd would be the ones wearing them and seeking them out.

Then there will be a reversal of the norm, whereas now some people loath the ultramarine they will nostaglically cling to them.

[Smokey]

Ulatramarine blue needs to GO....far away.

The color went out in the 70s.  It hurts my eyes. 

Those who want to stick with it over dark blue probably have advocado kitchen appliances and purple shag carpeting at home.

[Eclipse]

I would suggest that instead of a "phase out" have the two authorized forever, when (as you claim) the ultramarine runs out it will solve itself naturally.  Then only old die hards will continue with ultramarine.  In fact, I will bet money that if this were the policy by 2015 some of the "lets get rid of the ultramarine" crowd would be the ones wearing them and seeking them out.

I'm not making the claim on not being able to get Ultramarine, Vanguard is (or at least that is what is indicated in the Agenda).

BTW - I'll take that bet.  Given the choice, anyone who can will change out their tapes in the first 6 months - mine will be ordered the day they are approved.  After the first year, the majority of Blue field uniforms will be dark blue tapes, and more than 3/4 of the BDUs will as well.