Felons Supervising Minors: Is It Legal?

[Hawk200]

Well at least for the graduation ceremony a one time event.  Say for example a relative of yours had a criminal record and wasn't allowed near a school.  Despite that ruling wouldn't you want your relative there to share in your accomplishment?

Personally, I'd be disappointed, and I would tell them exactly what I told you here. I'd be a little annoyed that they had put themselves in that position in the first place. I'm the son of a cop, so I understand the purpose of the law, but it doesn't mean I'd necessarily like the situation.

If a relative of yours lost a license, and you had to drive them around all the time, would you be as understanding? Initially, I'd bet you would be, but eventually it would turn to resentment.

The fact that it's a one time situation mentioned here is what makes it easier to provide a "one time" exception. One time exceptions also have a tendency to turn into "precedent". This time something might not happen, or maybe not the next, but down the road something will go wrong, and a lot of people will have to suffer a great deal, because of that one time, there was an exception. And the person that suffers the most, down the road, is the next victim.

Any law that stands but makes exception for a chosen few is not fair law. And law is also to protect the community, not just to punish the criminal. Making exception poses risk to community. It's tough, but the law in question is to defend others as well.

[0]

So then should an individual who has served their time continue to be punished?  I have to agree in part and disagree in part with what you made.  Especially in cases like this where it was a one time thing it could be agrued that it was youthful stupidity.  Now I must admit if he were a repeat offender I'd be 100% in your corner. 

[Hawk200]

So then should an individual who has served their time continue to be punished?  I have to agree in part and disagree in part with what you made.  Especially in cases like this where it was a one time thing it could be agrued that it was youthful stupidity.  Now I must admit if he were a repeat offender I'd be 100% in your corner. 

That's were you start getting into tricky semantics. How do you know when a punishment is served? In this case, you're looking at his offense as a one time thing.

His restriction is part of protecting community. You see stuff all the time about how someone on a restraining order ends up killing, raping or maiming the person that they were supposed to be protected against. The restriction was there, and the criminal violated both the order, and comitted another crime as well.

Now, we don't even know this person in question. It could be a situation where he went, nothing happens, and everyone is fine. Or he could attend, and you see something in the papers a few months later about how he might have been molesting the next door neighbors kid for the last few years, and now the school superintendant is out of a job and sued for placing other children in danger. How does anyone know which future will play out? Is it worth the risk to make exception to a standing policy meant to protect the community?

What it boils down to is that it is a crime to go on school grounds if you have a sex offender conviction. That's not really a continuing punishment, it's a different law with different consequences.

As far as the original post goes, there may be states where it is illegal for someone with a felony to even be in the presence of minors. It's a law, and it is there for a reason. If we tried to make exceptions for everyone we think might be deserving, there is a higher probability that would we would end up with far more victims. Is that worth the risk, as well?

[mikeylikey]

I was just thinking how much we are discussing this guy not being allowed to attend his kids 8 grade graduation.

CAN you imagine what crap the kid (son of a rapist) is getting from his or her classmates.  Everyone remember what it was like in Junior and Senior High School...... and we weren't the kids of known felons and rapists making a stir in the community.

I wonder how jacked up this kid will be in the head years from now. 

This guy should have thought about his kids.......and kept quiet. 

[Hawk200]

CAN you imagine what crap the kid (son of a rapist) is getting from his or her classmates.  Everyone remember what it was like in Junior and Senior High School...... and we weren't the kids of known felons and rapists making a stir in the community.

I caught crap because my Dad was a cop. Tell someone they're being a jerk, and the response was usually something to the effect of "gonna have your Daddy arrest me?".

Yeah, the kid has it tough, but it was something his father did. And there are a lot of small minded people that may not want to be around the son, believing that he may do the same thing. Sins of the father, and all that. It's garbage, but there are many people that believe it just like there are people that are still stupid enough to ascribe to racism.

[isuhawkeye]

Michael Montecalvo is a convicted fellon.

mike as a dedicated paramedic was responding to a call when his unit was involved in a tarable  accident.  as a result mike is now a fellon.  how would you handle his case?

[mikeylikey]

Michael Montecalvo is a convicted fellon.

mike as a dedicated paramedic was responding to a call when his unit was involved in a tarable  accident.  as a result mike is now a fellon.  how would you handle his case?

What?!?!

[Hawk200]

Michael Montecalvo is a convicted fellon.

mike as a dedicated paramedic was responding to a call when his unit was involved in a tarable  accident.  as a result mike is now a fellon.  how would you handle his case?

In what manner? It stinks, but if he's a convicted felon, and the local state says he doesn't work with kids, then he doesn't work with kids. Are you willing to break the law by allowing it? The answer is that you don't handle his case. The law says what he can do, and can't do. We don't have the option to determine that the individual should be allowed to anything.

[Hawk200]

Michael Montecalvo is a convicted fellon.

mike as a dedicated paramedic was responding to a call when his unit was involved in a tarable  accident.  as a result mike is now a fellon.  how would you handle his case?

What?!?!

Just looked it up. Try ' "michael montecalvo" felon paramedic ' in a search engine. Should only get the one hit.

Added: here's the link: http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=20&id=3404

[mikeylikey]

^ That stinks.......

Totally different situation, and I think CAP NHQ would allow that guy to join.  As far as a rapist, he or she probably would not be allowed to join. 

It all depends on the type of felony a person is convicted of. 

[Ned]

So then should an individual who has served their time continue to be punished? 

FWIW, the law does not consider things like registration requirements and restrictions on movement or employment based on a particular kind of felony convictions as "punishment."  (Although, clearly some of these requirments look and feel like what we commonly consider punishment.)

These kinds of restrictions are considered "regulatory" and are designed to protect the public from current danger.

Kind of like the civil commitment statutes that allow folks to be detained in mental hospitals.  It may seem like jail and punishment since they are locked up, but the goal is not so much to "punish" the patient as it is to protect the patient and the public from harm.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Hawk200]

^ That stinks.......

Totally different situation, and I think CAP NHQ would allow that guy to join.  As far as a rapist, he or she probably would not be allowed to join. 

It all depends on the type of felony a person is convicted of. 

It's a little wierd as to what constitutes a felony. In some states, a crime is a misdemeanor, but in others it's felony. Even if a felon moves to a state where the crime is a misdemeanor, they're still a felon. It's screwy.

Personally, I'm not for a Federal police force, but I don't think it would be a bad idea for there to be some Federal codes for felonies and misdemeanors. I understand that in some states it's a misdemeanor to beat the crap out of someone burning a flag, but in others it's a hate crime. Not sure how that works, but it makes no sense to me.

[mikeylikey]

I understand that in some states it's a misdemeanor to beat the crap out of someone burning a flag, but in others it's a hate crime. Not sure how that works, but it makes no sense to me.

Consider me a "unconvicted" felon (don't tell anyone) 

[Flying Pig]

He taught his son about the importance of an education.  Now he can teach his him the importance of not breaking the law.

Some of you are completely naive of how the world works.  The man is a rapist plain and simple.  Yes, there are some crimes you never recover from.  Violent sexual assaults are one of them.  This isn't a matter of "I made a mistake and paid my debt."  This is a matter of you really screwed up pal.  Now keep your mouth shut and watch your sons graduation on video.  Seems to me that dad is show boating a little.  I bet his wife and son are really thrilled that daddy let everyone know.  I imagine his son is pretty excited that he gets to spend his high school years as the son of the rapist.  I am amazed that people are coming to his defense.

When sex offenders go to jail, they get put in protective custody because even the other inmates cant stand being around them, now we have CAP members feeling bad for him because the poor guy doesnt get to watch his kid graduate 8th grade.
I dont feel the slightest bit bad for him.  I feel bad for his family that he just couldn't keep his skeleton in the closet.

#1. Hes lucky he got in before the registration law took effect.
#2. He's lucky he didn't get shanked in jail.

[mikeylikey]

^ Well put.  I completely agree.  You are so spot on.

:clap: :clap:

The guy in question pretty much ruined not only his life but his kids lives too. 

I bet they move out of their town within a year.     

[flyerthom]

Michael Montecalvo is a convicted fellon.

mike as a dedicated paramedic was responding to a call when his unit was involved in a tarable  accident.  as a result mike is now a fellon.  how would you handle his case?

What?!?!

Running red lights and siren to a call. Smoked a stop sigh and hit a car crossing the intersection. Killed someone. Conviction and sentenced to 2 years. Spent 7 months in the clink. Can never be a paramedic in Ohio again. Worse sentence is the life time of memories. He owns the responsibility and has spent the time since doing what he can to prevent a similar occurrence.

{ OT for a second} A study through Annuals of Emergency Medicine Hunt, Ricahrd C MD FACEP etal. Volume 25, Issue 4, Pages 507-511 (April 1995) showed that the average time save for ambulances running red lights and sirens showed a 43.5 second time savings.  (Which is why CAP does not need blue lights )

If memory serves me thiswas one of  the reasons EVOC courses evolved.


Would a man like Michael be an asset to CAP? Beyond a doubt. Would the guy with the rape conviction? Judging by his attitude of defiance in the news article - dubious. Commanders and CAP need discretion.

[Hawk200]

Would a man like Michael be an asset to CAP? Beyond a doubt. Would the guy with the rape conviction? Judging by his attitude of defiance in the news article - dubious. Commanders and CAP need discretion.

We probably don't have any discretion in the matter. If there is any Federal or state law that prohibits felons working with minors, we don't have a choice in the matter. If even one state prohibits it, we would have issues if a member with a felony background joined.

The various issues would be a member moving to another state where it is prohibited, or being in a senior unit that may do O-flights, or moving local to a cadet or composite unit. Our members may not move a lot, but it could be an issue.

[flyboy]

In reading over this thread it's readily apparent that many CAP members want simple black and white rules which require no judgment and allow no exercise of discretion.  I guess this is why I really don't fit into CAP very well and have pretty much left it behind in my life.   

[Hawk200]

In reading over this thread it's readily apparent that many CAP members want simple black and white rules which require no judgment and allow no exercise of discretion.  I guess this is why I really don't fit into CAP very well and have pretty much left it behind in my life.   

It's not a matter of wanting simple black and white rules, it's a matter that simple black and white rules exist. There are also existing laws. Failure to obey existing laws isn't only unethical, it's criminal.

A lot of people don't like rules, regulations and laws. Obedience without repercussion isn't an option. CAP doesn't get to decide whether or not we follow them. Saying that CAP needs the discretion on whether or not to comply is just wrong. Period. There are existing rules, and there are consequences for not following them.

If you decided not to follow the rules, that's your option. You made the best choice for all concerned by leaving.

[flyboy]

This is where the ability to critically think about an issue is useful, and so often missing in out society.

It's not a matter of wanting simple black and white rules, it's a matter that simple black and white rules exist. There are also existing laws. Failure to obey existing laws isn't only unethical, it's criminal.
Actually, the rules regarding membership of felons give discretion to the squadron commander. If you take the idea that failure to obey a law is criminal, then anyone who has ever gotten a speed limit is a criminal and should be disqualified for CAP service.  Again, discretion and judgment in the enforcement of the rules is needed.

A lot of people don't like rules, regulations and laws. Obedience without repercussion isn't an option. CAP doesn't get to decide whether or not we follow them. Saying that CAP needs the discretion on whether or not to comply is just wrong. Period. There are existing rules, and there are consequences for not following them.
Actually, CAP does get to make its own internal regulations, and the organization has discretion in the how and when of enforcement.  Outside of CAP this even happens all the way up to the judicial level when prosecutors exercise their own discretion on what to charge and what to ignore.  Unfortunately, this discretion is too often delegated young inexperienced prosecutors who exercise it without adequate supervision or an appreciation for the power of their office.


If you decided not to follow the rules, that's your option. You made the best choice for all concerned by leaving.
Who said I didn't folow the rules?  Actually, there are no negative marks on my service record, although there is a Wing Commander's Commendation there.  What I said was that I am absolutely dismayed by the mentallity of so many members who simply can't see that not all issues are simply black and white. 
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