New Nat/CC agenda

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My uncle was in the AF not long after Korea, when AF ranks were totally different to what they are now (1 stripe - Airman 3rd Class; 2 stripes - Airman Second Class; 3 stripes - Airman First Class, and then on to Staff Sergeant and up).  He remembered warrant officers.

I think he said that a CWO was in charge of the motor pool where he worked at RAF Sculthorpe in England.  He said "they're specialists, usually ex-NCO's and they rate a salute."

But what I mean by CAP NCO's being reinstituted would have negligible costs to the AF or to CAP members.  It wouldn't cost the AF because CAP members don't get paid.  The CAP member would just have to purchase the warrant "squared bars," and I see those on Evilbay quite a lot.







Until the manufacture of blue CAP warrant epaulettes would go through (there's no good reason they'd have to be grey, since the AF doesn't have them) metal ones on blue cadet epaulettes could be used.

Of course, some are going to cite the fact that "the Air Force doesn't have them."  As has been pointed out, the AF doesn't have any, but they are still authorised, and there has been a groundswell of support for bringing them back.

http://www.petitiononline.com/usafwo1/petition.html

But I'm talking about bringing them back for CAP.

As well, we have other things that the AF doesn't have:

• Non-promotable NCO ranks
• SMWOG
• Officers without college degrees (for the record: I have an associate degree)
• Even those who have rank that refuse/don't bother to wear it!

It could thin out the impression that we are top-heavy with lieutenant colonels, and could be an avenue for those who want to do just one thing (speciality track, including pilots) without command aspirations.

And for the shopworn "distinctiveness" argument...the AF doesn't use them, so that makes them "distinctive" already!

BuckeyeDEJ: I remember when General Fogleman authorised the "U.S." collar brass for CAP.  I didn't mean to diminish the honour of that.  However, I remember talking at some length with my unit CC and wing CC (who used to be my unit CC) when it happened and how it seemed odd/illogical to grant us something to "mark us as part of the AF family" by giving us something we never had instead of reinstating something we did have, especially given that AF/CAP were already authorising new epaulettes...

[ZigZag911]

Why re-invent the wheel and confuse things with USAF, not mention the other military services? Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard all have warrant officers.

What the do not have are Flight Officers...we do, we have rank insignia already designed...it seems to me it would be largely an internal process (of course, seeking Air Force approval) to modify that program so that, rather than simply being a 'holding area' for the 18-20 year old seniors, it became instead our initial officer grade.

For some, it would represent a long term choice -- the 'single mission, technical specialists'...for others, it would be the beginning of a longer progression into the "commissioned" grades...much as the WO program was for CAP in the '60s and '70s.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'd be good with that too (realigning the Flight Officer grades).

There's no reason why the insignia for those couldn't be blue...since as you correctly pointed out, the AF (or anyone else) doesn't have them.

Better cloth ones would have to be designed though (BDU's, flight suit, etc)...I have trouble making out how many stripes are on those tiny little bars.

[BillB]

The old CAP WO grade was a silver bar (same size as 1LT) with blue stripes, or a blue bar with silver stripes,. which ever way you want to look at it, running across. Looks 900% better than the current Flight officer insignia of grade. Since the insignia was already approved by USAF, there shouldn't be a problem to reinstitute it.

[Spaceman3750]

Why re-invent the wheel and confuse things with USAF, not mention the other military services? Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard all have warrant officers.

What the do not have are Flight Officers...we do, we have rank insignia already designed...it seems to me it would be largely an internal process (of course, seeking Air Force approval) to modify that program so that, rather than simply being a 'holding area' for the 18-20 year old seniors, it became instead our initial officer grade.

For some, it would represent a long term choice -- the 'single mission, technical specialists'...for others, it would be the beginning of a longer progression into the "commissioned" grades...much as the WO program was for CAP in the '60s and '70s.

It doesn't align with the military idea of officer and enlisted tracks. Warrant officers are not the newbie officers - they are the best enlisted who became a form of officer. Also, 2nd Lt's are SUPPOSED to be new and a little clueless - that's why they're O-1 on a 10 or so step scale.

That basically constitutes changing things for changes sake. Let's not do that please.

[arajca]

Warrant officers are specialists, not "the best enlisted who became a form of officer." Enlisted who become officers become commissioned officers, not warrant officers. The E to O folks are commonly refered to as mustangs. If you have a member who wants to only do Cadet Programs or AE or Admin, why not make them warrant officers? Think about a reduction in headaches if pilots weren't insta-captains.

CAP does not align with the idea of officer and enlisted tracks, so that is an irrelevent point.

[Sapper168]

.......CAP does not align with the idea of officer and enlisted tracks, so that is an irrelevent point.

This is precisely why upon joining CAP i Decided on the officer grades instead of being a senior member NCO..... the only real difference as a senior member is the shape of your grade.   Though to be honest a few times ive seriously thought i should have chosen the NCO grades.

[SarDragon]

Warrant officers are specialists, not "the best enlisted who became a form of officer." Enlisted who become officers become commissioned officers, not warrant officers. The E to O folks are commonly refered to as mustangs. If you have a member who wants to only do Cadet Programs or AE or Admin, why not make them warrant officers? Think about a reduction in headaches if pilots weren't insta-captains.

CAP does not align with the idea of officer and enlisted tracks, so that is an irrelevent point.

FWIW, in the canoe club, warrant officers are also considered mustangs. Also, WOs beyond W-1 are commissioned, too - CWO.

[bosshawk]

Completely off topic, but in the Army, W-2-5 are also CWO and are commissioned.  In the Army, CWO stands for CHIEF Warrant Officer and they generally are specialists: many of them former NCOs.  I had five or six work for me as Imagery Analysts: all former NCOs.  The Army does not generally refer to them as "mustangs".  Of course, the vast majority of Army aviators are Warrants.

[SarDragon]

ALL Navy WOs are former E-7 - E-9. Hence, they are all also mustangs.

Many Army WOs are ex-enlisted only to the extent that they were paid as E-5s when going through a portion of their initial training to become pilots. A HS bud of mine did that back in the early '70s, and did a Nam tour as a helo pilot.

[RADIOMAN015]

Warrant officers are specialists, not "the best enlisted who became a form of officer." Enlisted who become officers become commissioned officers, not warrant officers. The E to O folks are commonly refered to as mustangs. If you have a member who wants to only do Cadet Programs or AE or Admin, why not make them warrant officers? Think about a reduction in headaches if pilots weren't insta-captains.

CAP does not align with the idea of officer and enlisted tracks, so that is an irrelevent point.

Well actually the WO program in the Army isn't a bad concept.  "Specialists" who also lead that particular section/department become officers for what they know and what they do.  Franky, the AF could have saved some payroll costs if they took the majority of pilots and other aircrew officers and had them as Warrant Officers.   Most rated officers in the AF pretty much are making it to Major without leaving the cockpit, so they are exhibiting technical skills and some minor leadership/management skills (with their crew), versus the typical non rated officer that has much more leadership & management challenges.  So I'm in favor in bringing back the warrant officer program, especially for aviators.  Likely even in the medical/dental field WO's (with appropriate bonuses) would also work.

The same applies to Civil Air Patrol, I think it would be best first to bring members in as WO's and depending upon positions (of leadership) versus technical experise (e.g. pilots & crew members, "instructors", etc), WO would come first.  The switch over might come at the rank of Captain, with no 2Lt or 1Lt and also in a leadership role as a commander or deputy commander.
RM