I am going to an ANG base this weekend for some training and I will be wearing the BBDU... am I going to have to be saluting people when I get there? How formal is this practice? Who? CAP? USAF officers? I haven't thrown a salute in over thirty years...
It seems like not long ago you were wondering when you were going to get to wear your promotion. I would think that if you are ready to be promoted to officer that you would know how to act like one. I am not sure, but I thought that I recalled that you have prior service in the military? If not, I apologize. Anyhow, there is a CAPP, I think number 52, on customs and courtesies. It is very short and you should be able to read it and understand it in a few minutes. I would suggest that you know what you are doing before you go on base and embarrass the rest of us..
When in doubt, whip it out.
Here's what I would do, but put me in BDUs because I don't own BBDUs...
If I saw an Air Force officer that out-ranked me, I'd salute and say "good afternoon sir (or ma'am)".
If I saw a CAP officer that out-ranked me, I'd salute and say "good afternoon sir (or ma'am)".
9 times out of 10, if someone is saluted they'll salute back. So if you're in BBDUs and you salute an AF officer, they'll probably return the salute, stop, scratch their head, and say to themselves "since when do cops salute us, or maybe that was the Coast Guard...hmmmm....anyway, back to the computer...".
No biggie. Just relax and have a good time.
Oh, and if you don't salute them, they won't stamp "no dessert" on your meal card ;D
Agreed. Well said Harry
CAPP 151 is the C&C book. It's outdated, but it gets the message across. Theres also a section in AFMAN 36-2203 about saluting.
Salute all officers higher than you. (CAP and military)
If it were me, I would salute any military officer regardless of thier grade, but thats just me and its not required according to the 2 publications mentioned earlier in this post.
If he doesn't know what to do or how to act on a military base or around officers, I'd lay blame on his chain of command first.
If you came to my squadron as a new senior member without prior military experience, I'd make sure you knew how to conduct yourself accordingly before throwing on a set of bars. It's kind of like rehearsing a promotion or retirement ceremony. Sure, people have seen a million of them, but they've all been done differently and it doesn't hurt to ask questions and practice.
Please read CAPP 151 - Customs and Courtesies (as horribly written as it is.)
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf
Basically though, you will salute all commissioned officers of higher grade than you. So if you are a SMWOG, you will salute all comissioned officers. There is no prescribed distance to initiate a salute, so use common sense. Technically it is "upon recognition," but I think that 200 feet is a little excessive.
Also, a greeting of the day is appropriate, such as "good morning, Sir!"
Don't forget about MOH recipients.
You may get saluted by some enlisted personnel, so just return it and carry on.
Quote from: capchiro on August 01, 2007, 03:55:28 PM
It seems like not long ago you were wondering when you were going to get to wear your promotion. I would think that if you are ready to be promoted to officer that you would know how to act like one. I am not sure, but I thought that I recalled that you have prior service in the military? If not, I apologize. Anyhow, there is a CAPP, I think number 52, on customs and courtesies. It is very short and you should be able to read it and understand it in a few minutes. I would suggest that you know what you are doing before you go on base and embarrass the rest of us..
Sheesh! Slice me a new one! Yes I read the documents. I was led to believe that saluting may or may not be required. This is why I asked. I seem to remember from military days very long ago that the only DUMB question was the one that didn't get asked. I have been on one wing training exercise so far and no one saluted anyone. And I have been going to the meetings regularily for four months now and no salutes yet either. Hawaiian shirts yes, salutes no.
As to promotions, if you recall the discussion there is ambiguity as to whether a six month wait is required for someone who is already a pilot. I have never claimed to have military skills - just piloting skills. My unit commander seems to think that everyone gets promoted after six months - automatically as far as he is concerned.
Really guys, I just want to get things right and be a professional.
--NM
You guys stress over the funniest stuff.
Guy asked a question, Answer it and carry on. That's it, no need for all the little side stuff about him asking a question unrelated to this.
:sigh: And I wonder why most CAP Members I mention this forum to, roll their eyes and say they can't stand the bickering.
Technically, since you will be wearing the BBDU, or CAP Field Uniform, it is not a military style uniform and you don't HAVE to salute. However, it is never wrong to salute, so go for it.
You'll probable just confuse them. ;)
Of course, if you are wearing officer's rank, some of the enlisted will probably salute you. We had that happen in Annapolis near the Naval Academy. They kept saluting some of our officers, but you could tell they weren't too sure who we were. :D
...and CAPP 151 is hardly clear on the subject.
In section 1, it makes a disticntion between what CAP members do toward the flag on the basis of whether they are in "military style uniform" or "any other CAP uniform". In section 2 however saluting is exchanged between CAP members when in military style uniform. Does this include CAP style BBDUs? Section 2 b (1) says we salute when in military-style uniform. Again, BBDUs?
NM, keep your head up. You are doing it right. Many CAP Officers just wear the polo combo and don't worry about saluting. I think it is great you are even thinking about it. The CAP corporate uniform really does add a monkey wrench in the works as they are so much different than the military uniforms. So, things would be pretty cut and dry if you were wearing the AF style uniform. Just like the others said, salute those higher than you (AF, CAP, other branches of the service that you recognize as officers). With the CAP distinctive style uniform, this should be done, but if you mess up, you don't owe 20 pushups or anything.
One thing I want to point out is an ANG base is traditionally a little less formal than active duty bases. My unit meets on an ANG base and we have gotten comments like- "hey don't polish your boots any more- you are making us look bad", or "well you can tell they just got back from tech school they are still saluting!!". This being said a greeting and if possible a salute will be more than the ANG officers expect. Remember, most of these guys are civilian 28 days a month minus 2 weeks a year. They are pretty laid back. Oh and I could be totally wrong on this as every base and every base cc is different, this is just my experience on one particular base.
In regards to your last question, complete CPP, Senior Orientation and OPSEC and most of the time you are all set after 6 months (not always if there is a reason the cc wants to hold up the promotion). If you have a mission related promotion, do all of the above and prove to the commander you are ready sooner, and they can promote you. It is not a rule that you have to wait 6 months.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 01, 2007, 04:42:20 PM
...and CAPP 151 is hardly clear on the subject.
In section 1, it makes a disticntion between what CAP members do toward the flag on the basis of whether they are in "military style uniform" or "any other CAP uniform". In section 2 however saluting is exchanged between CAP members when in military style uniform. Does this include CAP style BBDUs? Section 2 b (1) says we salute when in military-style uniform. Again, BBDUs?
I interpret "military style uniform" as the Air Force style uniforms. To this we now have to add the new corporate uniform. That being said, there is nothing that says you can't salute while wearing the other CAP uniforms. So, if I'm in the Field Uniform or the Aviator Shirt Uniform, I tend to salute. It does seem a bit strange in the Golf Shirt Uniform, but if someone salutes me, I will return the salute even then.
By the way, whether or not you salute is determined by the uniform you are wearing, not the other guy. So, if you recognize an officer and you are wearing a military style uniform, you are supposed to salute, even if the officer is not wearing a military style uniform. He wouldn't have to return the salute, because he's not in uniform, but he certainly can. That question came up in my unit the other day, so we looked it up.
^Really...because I'd consider any uniform in which you could display grade insignia to be a military style uniform.
To say that the TPU is not "military style" is absurd. "I want to wear ribbons and metal grade insignia, but C&C do not apply to me...hardly.
The only uniforms we have that I would not consider "military style" are the polo and golf shirts.
In the RealMilitary@ we always saluted if we recognized them as an officer, even if they were in civvies. The respect is due to the person, not the grade insignia.
As for greetings, we actually had to practice this one in basic training, it was one of our 30 basic tasks and yes I know it was an Army thing, but I think it's still relevant and applicable and you would never be gigged for it.
You basically pop your salute and issue the standard greeting when you are close enough to say it without shouting, holding it until it is returned or they are passing you.
From midnight to 12 Noon: Good Morning Sir!
From 12 Noon to 6PM: Good Afternoon Ma'am!
After 6PM: Good Evening Sergeant! (obviously without the salute)
BTW, it doesn't hurt to smile and say it cheerfully, like you actually enjoy being there and wishing them a good day.
I remember one kid getting jacked up for saying "How's it going sir?". Not only was the Drill Sgt NOT a sir, but he took great offense to being addressed so informally. Like I said, this is probably more formality than you need, but it doesn't hurt to know how it works at the very basic levels.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 01, 2007, 05:41:34 PM
In the Real Military™ we always saluted if we recognized them as an officer, even if they were in civvies. The respect is due to the person, not the grade insignia.
Abolutely! It was the norm for me. If you saw your BN Commander, Company Commander, or any other officer you knew was an officer, you rendered a salute. Some units have specific
saying that are said when saluting, like "All the way" and the officer would reply "Airborne". When in doubt though, in the Army, if you simply saluted and said "Hooah, sir (or ma'am)", you were good to go.
As a CP guy in CAP, I would explain this to cadets as part of their T-Flight or other D&C, C&C, or leadership classes. Soon, it became the norm to see my cadets saluting officers, even cadet officers, when they were in PT gear or, lets say, at the squadron doing a van clean-up. I'd walk up and get a salute. Now, do I tell them to stop it, or do I return the salute? I saluted.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2007, 04:04:19 PM
There is no prescribed distance to initiate a salute, so use common sense. Technically it is "upon recognition," but I think that 200 feet is a little excessive.
When I was active duty, the general rule of thumb was six paces. Always seemed to work fairly well.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 01, 2007, 04:42:20 PM
...and CAPP 151 is hardly clear on the subject.
In section 1, it makes a disticntion between what CAP members do toward the flag on the basis of whether they are in "military style uniform" or "any other CAP uniform". In section 2 however saluting is exchanged between CAP members when in military style uniform. Does this include CAP style BBDUs? Section 2 b (1) says we salute when in military-style uniform. Again, BBDUs?
Back when the pamphlet was written the Field Uniform (BBDU) didn't exist... And the CAP Distinctive Uniforms (Blazer and Aviator Shirt with blazer nametag) weren't the qusi-military style uniforms we have today in the Corporate Uniform (TPU), Field and Utility Uniforms.
I wish it stayed that way.... That the CAP Distinctive Uniforms were not "military style uniforms" and C&C wasn't rendered... because they were more or less civilian clothes... but that would discriminatory, and we can't have that.
If you have passed your CAP form 5 check, and you are wearing wings, don't worry about other ranks. Being a pilot trumps rank, all lesser, non-flying, officers have to salute you. You have to salute all pilots of faster airplanes (which would be everyone except maybe C-130 drivers since they have to sweat bird strikes from the rear). You should practice in a mirror to develop an arrogantly-superior smug as you return salutes from non-pilots. >:D
"After Johnny got through basic training, he
Was a soldier through and through when he was done.
Its effects were so well rooted,
That the next day he saluted
A Good Humor man, an usher, and a nun."
--Tom Lehrer, circa 1959
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 01, 2007, 06:09:40 PM
If you have passed your CAP form 5 check, and you are wearing wings, don't worry about other ranks. Being a pilot trumps rank, all lesser, non-flying, officers have to salute you.
Except for those sporting jump wings. Although rare in CAP, if you should see such a person, you shall open doors, retrieve drinks, and press their uniform. Although not a pilot, per se, they are skilled in flight with nothing but a bunch of silk, some string and a slight breeze.
Simple rule:
If you wear the costume, you play the part.
Quote from: MIKE on August 01, 2007, 05:58:54 PM
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 01, 2007, 04:42:20 PM
...and CAPP 151 is hardly clear on the subject.
In section 1, it makes a disticntion between what CAP members do toward the flag on the basis of whether they are in "military style uniform" or "any other CAP uniform". In section 2 however saluting is exchanged between CAP members when in military style uniform. Does this include CAP style BBDUs? Section 2 b (1) says we salute when in military-style uniform. Again, BBDUs?
Back when the pamphlet was written the Field Uniform (BBDU) didn't exist... And the CAP Distinctive Uniforms (Blazer and Aviator Shirt with blazer nametag) weren't the qusi-military style uniforms we have today in the Corporate Uniform (TPU) Field and Utility Uniforms).
I wish it stayed that way.... That the CAP Distinctive Uniforms were not "military style uniforms" and C&C wasn't rendered... because they were more or less civilian clothes... but that would discriminatory, and we can't have that.
I'll admit that the newer CAP distinctive uniforms do cloud the issue, and that may be why the 39-1 says "Air Force style" instead of "military style."
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2007, 05:17:55 PM
^Really...because I'd consider any uniform in which you could display grade insignia to be a military style uniform.
To say that the TPU is not "military style" is absurd. "I want to wear ribbons and metal grade insignia, but C&C do not apply to me...hardly.
The only uniforms we have that I would not consider "military style" are the polo and golf shirts.
It seems to me that I saw somewhere that members were required to render military courtesies while in the new corporate uniform. I can't seem to find a reference though.
It was in one of the ICLs IIRC.
Edit: 20 Nov 06 CAP/CC Letter, Change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniforms (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2006_11_CAP_Uniforms.pdf)
Quote from: MIKE on August 01, 2007, 07:19:49 PM
It was in one of the ICLs IIRC.
Edit: 20 Nov 06 CAP/CC Letter, Change to CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniforms (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2006_11_CAP_Uniforms.pdf)
That's the one. From the text:
The recent NEC clarified the policy concerning
customs and courtesies when wearing this uniform. Members wearing the Corporate
Service Coat or the white aviator shirt and blue pants/skirt combination should observe
the same customs and courtesies as members wearing the Air Force-style uniform.
Members will stand at attention for the National Anthem and the presentation of the
colors and will salute superior officers as necessary.Since this states that the corporate uniform is treated like the Air Force-style uniforms as far as customs and courtesies, that would imply to me that the other CAP distinctive uniforms are not treated the same.
Quote from: Stonewall on August 01, 2007, 06:16:12 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 01, 2007, 06:09:40 PM
If you have passed your CAP form 5 check, and you are wearing wings, don't worry about other ranks. Being a pilot trumps rank, all lesser, non-flying, officers have to salute you.
Except for those sporting jump wings. Although rare in CAP, if you should see such a person, you shall open doors, retrieve drinks, and press their uniform. Although not a pilot, per se, they are skilled in flight with nothing but a bunch of silk, some string and a slight breeze.
Were it not for pilots, jump wings would be a meaningless apputenance. Plus pilot are endowed with magical powers enabling them to convert a graceful flying machine into a less-than-graceful ground conveyance, and vice-versa. It is to them that the secret of finding loopholes in the Law of Gravity is quietly imparted.
Pilots know the loopholes in the Law of Gravity. Paratroopers are only able to obtain a continuance.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 01, 2007, 09:04:15 PM
Were it not for pilots, jump wings would be a meaningless apputenance.
Oh, but what about BASE jumping? Don't need a plane for that! >:D
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 01, 2007, 09:04:15 PM
Pilots know the loopholes in the Law of Gravity. Paratroopers are only able to obtain a continuance.
Conceeded. But freefall is still the closest to flying mankind has found to date. Just your body and the air.
^ still, only a continuance.
Quote from: Fifinella on August 01, 2007, 09:44:06 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 01, 2007, 09:04:15 PM
Were it not for pilots, jump wings would be a meaningless apputenance.
Oh, but what about BASE jumping? Don't need a plane for that! >:D
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 01, 2007, 09:04:15 PM
Pilots know the loopholes in the Law of Gravity. Paratroopers are only able to obtain a continuance.
Conceeded. But freefall is still the closest to flying mankind has found to date. Just your body and the air.
Nobody gets jump wings for base jumping. Invading a valley when you already hold the high ground and bridges is a job for the "Legs."
When I was a young soldier I used to join in the taunt to airborne guys tht "Nobody in their right mind would jump out of a perfectly good airplane."
Later, I learned a hard-but-true Fact of Military Life:
The C-130 is NOT a "Perfectly good airplane."
Quote from: O-Rex on August 01, 2007, 06:17:29 PM
Simple rule:
If you wear the costume, you play the part.
Well said.
Folks, here's the down and dirty....Whip out that salute to officers of higher rank than you wear;
smartly return the salute offered to you from officers junior to you and enlisted military...
then go on about your business.
All the concerns and moaning I hear from this site about saluting when approaching real military or real military cadets should be put to rest....just do it and move on.....no need to "educate" the real military or real cadets about not needing to salute a CAP officer...
The problem only comes from those CAP members who
demand a salute from the real military or a cadet, or worse yet, attempt to give an order, haze, or just outright show disrespect.....
Those members who go trolling for salutes need to be quickly re-educated about the history and privilage of saluting and then tell them to cut it out or kick them out for conduct unbecoming....worse case is that such a member can be arrested for impersonating an officer.
I'm sure many of you have met members like that....they might even be real military members themselves with a chip on their shoulder (worse, a butter bar on their collar).
Recruiting members into CAP is important. Education regarding military C&C is even more important (by the way, this is where your NCO's are best used).
Again, smartly return the salute and carry on. You'll improve the perception of CAP greatly....
/r
LT
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2007, 05:17:55 PM
^Really...because I'd consider any uniform in which you could display grade insignia to be a military style uniform.
To say that the TPU is not "military style" is absurd. The only uniforms we have that I would not consider "military style" are the polo and golf shirts.
I agree.
Quote from: Stonewall on August 01, 2007, 05:50:51 PM
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 01, 2007, 05:41:34 PM
If you saw your BN Commander, Company Commander, or any other officer you knew was an officer, you rendered a salute. Some units have specific saying that are said when saluting, like "All the way" and the officer would reply "Airborne". When in doubt though, in the Army, if you simply saluted and said "Hooah, sir (or ma'am)", you were good to go.
Sounds like you have some experience with the 82nd?! Myself, Bravo Co. 1/505th PIR, some years ago.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2007, 05:57:14 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2007, 04:04:19 PM
There is no prescribed distance to initiate a salute, so use common sense. Technically it is "upon recognition," but I think that 200 feet is a little excessive.
When I was active duty, the general rule of thumb was six paces. Always seemed to work fairly well.
That has been a myth in CAP for many years. If you look at the NHQ website and look up the myths and legends, this is covered. It is too hard to tell how far 6 paces out are from the officer.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2007, 04:04:19 PM
Please read CAPP 151 - Customs and Courtesies (as horribly written as it is.)
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf
Basically though, you will salute all commissioned officers of higher grade than you. So if you are a SMWOG, you will salute all comissioned officers. There is no prescribed distance to initiate a salute, so use common sense. Technically it is "upon recognition," but I think that 200 feet is a little excessive.
Also, a greeting of the day is appropriate, such as "good morning, Sir!"
Don't forget about MOH recipients.
You may get saluted by some enlisted personnel, so just return it and carry on.
As a SMWOG shouldn't one
also salute Warrant Officers as well (even those WOs who aren't commissioned)?
As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.
Quote from: MIKE on August 02, 2007, 06:58:11 PM
As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.
Where did you see this? I am confused as even the newest Senior Member is an Officer in CAP. We train our cadets to salute them as well. They are not considered airmen.
In regards to saluting warrent officers, our cadets would salute them, but our officers would not as their grades are technically higher than theirs (if our grades were "real" military grades). It would be the same as a CAP Captain saluting an Air Force 2d Lt. It shouldn't happen like that.
Quote from: CAPM 39-11-3. a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major
general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.
b. Airman: Unless otherwise specified, includes all other uniformed members both senior and cadet.
I don't see SMWOG under CAP officer or flight officer grades.....
35-5
Quote3. Senior Member Grades.
a. CAP officer grades are:
1) Major General (Maj Gen)
2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
3) Colonel (Col)
4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
5) Major (Maj)
6) Captain (Capt)
7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)
2 CAPR 35-5 21 AUGUST 2004
b. CAP flight officer grades are:
1) Senior Flight Officer (SFO)
2) Technical Flight Officer (TFO)
3) Flight Officer (FO)
c. CAP NCO grades are:
1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)
6) Sergeant (Sgt)
4. Initial Grades. All senior members will be enrolled as CAP senior members without grade, unless they are specifically
exempt from Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program and immediately qualify for an officer grade
in consideration of previous CAP experience, as set forth in section C.
Disabled smileys - MIKE
That cite works too I guess. It should be noted that SMs without grade aren't supposed to wear "officer stuff" on the uniform per CAPM 39-1. So it should be evident that they are not officers... for these purposes.
SM's are sort of like Officer Candidates. As an OC i was lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean. I was technically an E-6, but not a staff sergeant. I had, actually, NO rank.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 02, 2007, 08:31:27 PM
SM's are sort of like Officer Candidates. As an OC i was lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean. I was technically an E-6, but not a staff sergeant. I had, actually, NO rank.
You were paid at E-6 grade, and if you bombed out you'd then be a staff sergeant ... but an OC has no rank and technically isn't in the Army. He's a student who will be a soldier -- either as an officer or an NCO. Right?
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on August 02, 2007, 08:34:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 02, 2007, 08:31:27 PM
SM's are sort of like Officer Candidates. As an OC i was lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean. I was technically an E-6, but not a staff sergeant. I had, actually, NO rank.
You were paid at E-6 grade, and if you bombed out you'd then be a staff sergeant ... but an OC has no rank and technically isn't in the Army. He's a student who will be a soldier -- either as an officer or an NCO. Right?
Jack
Pretty much. The E-6 grade is literally just a pay scale. They get paid that way, but they don't carry the rank associated with the grade.
Quote from: MIKE on August 02, 2007, 06:58:11 PM
As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.
OK, I am a "senior member without grade". I am not an officer. So how is it that I am the communications officer for my unit?
Huh? Huh? I gotcha I think!
So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 02, 2007, 10:50:38 PM
So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"
Most SMWOG's I see refer to themselves as "Senior Member Smith", just as some cadets report as "Cadet Smith".
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 02, 2007, 10:50:38 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 02, 2007, 06:58:11 PM
As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.
OK, I am a "senior member without grade". I am not an officer. So how is it that I am the communications officer for my unit?
Huh? Huh? I gotcha I think!
So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"
They misnamed your position?
According to regs, you should be considered an Airman, not an officer. The rules used to say you should wear the Airman's flight cap (with the blue braid) instead of the offficer flight cap (with the blue and silver braid).
I'm the only one I know that went to that trouble, but I already had both types of flight caps.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 02, 2007, 10:50:38 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 02, 2007, 06:58:11 PM
As SMs without grade are classed as "Aimen" and not "Officers"... I would say so.
OK, I am a "senior member without grade". I am not an officer. So how is it that I am the communications officer for my unit?
Huh? Huh? I gotcha I think!
So, when I report in to the ANG Base, I salute and say, "Senior Member Without Grade Nomex, reporting sir!"
You are confusing position and grade/rank. Theoretically, a SMWOG could be a unit commander, however unlikely that actually is.
Af for reporting, you would normally only formally report to CAP personnel. At the ANG Base, just show up, exchange the normal pleasantries, and get on with business. Should you be in the position to formally report, it would be "Senior Member Nomex, reporting sir!"
Technically, as an officer candidate I was sort of kind of an officer. I could be treated like excrement by the TAC staff, but not by anyone else. When my Guard unit was called up for a blizzard, I was also mobilized, but assigned officer duties.
Yes, if I had failed to complete OCS, I would have returned to my unit as a SSG. When I was commissioned, my discharge from enlisted rank read "Staff Sergeant," although I never actually wore three-and-a-rocker.
A SM is sort of like an officer candidate. You can be assigned officer duties but your primary duty is to learn how to be an officer so you won't look too foolish as a lieutenant.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on August 03, 2007, 01:02:44 AM
. . .
A SM is sort of like an officer candidate. You can be assigned officer duties but your primary duty is to learn how to be an officer so you won't look too foolish as a lieutenant.
Dude, trust me I can look foolish even as a Captain. In fact, I am looking forward to it!
Folks, it ain't that hard....
If you are not wearing any grade insignia (SMWOG) you can choose to salute all real military officers including warrants or not. For the most part they won't know the difference and you would not confuse anybody. Of course, salute your CAP officers!
If you wear an insignia mark on your collar that looks like a butter bar or higher, then perform the time honored custom of saluting! Otherwise you will cause confusion of you do not follow the custom.
Any further questions?
I'll put it this way: If I saw you in your CAP uniform walking toward me and you were wearing major or higher (me wearing my real military uniform) I would whip out a salute and greeting because we're pretty much on the same team.
If I walked past you wearing your CAP uniform and you were below my current active duty grade and you did not salute...I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so) and might even consider banning your access to the military facility you were currently on.
Truthfully, I might mention something about the stupid CAP to my CO after just walking away from you shaking my head....
That's how it really works, and you lower the perception of the CAP in several real officers minds....how's that for cause and effect?
Think about how others perceive you and CAP if you neglect to properly follow C&C while you wear a uniform of this country.....
/r
LT
LT Sandman,
While I appreciate you service on behalf of our Nation ...
While deliberately seeking to avoid any apperance of an ad hominem approach, I must --respectfully- take exception with part of your --what I hope to be somewhat less than serious-- reply, "I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so)."
This is a matter of ethics/morals ... something I teach.
St. Paul wrote, "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are beneficial ..." (1 Cor. 6:12, NRSV). Likewise, (per your reply) a naval officer MAY indeed have the "lawful" authority to haze and/or verbally denegrate a well-meaning (albeit, likely poorly trained ... or --more likely-- merely inattentive, or confused) civilian volunteer for the relatively minor infraction of failing to salute a superior-grade officer, but IMHO a gentlemen would NEVER exercise it because to do so would be distinctly un-gentlemanly.
Laws are laws [Regs are Regs], but moral right is not always defined by, or contained within, them (e.g. the infamous Dred Scott Decision, or the racially segregated USN/USA/USMC of WWII and before).
Granted, I may not be a commissioned "real life" officer (nor do I pretend to be), but I --too-- am a gentleman (and an ordained clergyperson) and refrain from prejudicial name-calling --even though the First Amendment seemingly grants me the "lawful" authority to do so-- and I NEVER haze people.
Furthermore, as a CAP chaplain who works closely with cadets (and as a former squadron commander and Group, Wing, Region staff officer), I have too-often had to redress both name-calling and attempted or actual hazing between cadets (and even a few misguided or hyperbolic SMs), --and knowing that we have a number of impressionable cadets reading these threads-- I worry about them believing that hazing and/or name-calling is appropriate in the military and ipso facto SHOULD be (if it isn't) in CAP.
There must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member (I recall a field-grade --rated-- AFRES officer who was fired from his RAP "job" for insulting comments, and some name-calling, directed toward CAP volunteers ... as I was one of the recipients).
CAP does not tolerate mistreatment or hazing of its members, nor evidently will HQ CAP-USAF tolerate their personnel --even senior officers-- mistreating CAP members.
Although hazing MAY be "authorized" conduct for officers in the USN, it is expressly FORBIDDEN in CAP. All CAP members, thus, haze at their own peril.
Beyond that, some things are simply wrong.
Quote from: Chaplaindon on August 03, 2007, 03:03:18 PM
LT Sandman,
While I appreciate you service on behalf of our Nation ...
While deliberately seeking to avoid any apperance of an ad hominem approach, I must --respectfully- take exception with part of your --what I hope to be somewhat less than serious-- reply, "I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so)."
This is a matter of ethics/morals ... something I teach.
St. Paul wrote, "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are beneficial ..." (1 Cor. 6:12, NRSV). Likewise, (per your reply) a naval officer MAY indeed have the "lawful" authority to haze and/or verbally denegrate a well-meaning (albeit, likely poorly trained ... or --more likely-- merely inattentive, or confused) civilian volunteer for the relatively minor infraction of failing to salute a superior-grade officer, but IMHO a gentlemen would NEVER exercise it because to do so would be distinctly un-gentlemanly.
Laws are laws [Regs are Regs], but moral right is not always defined by, or contained within, them (e.g. the infamous Dred Scott Decision, or the racially segregated USN/USA/USMC of WWII and before).
Granted, I may not be a commissioned "real life" officer (nor do I pretend to be), but I --too-- am a gentleman (and an ordained clergyperson) and refrain from prejudicial name-calling --even though the First Amendment seemingly grants me the "lawful" authority to do so-- and I NEVER haze people.
Furthermore, as a CAP chaplain who works closely with cadets (and as a former squadron commander and Group, Wing, Region staff officer), I have too-often had to redress both name-calling and attempted or actual hazing between cadets (and even a few misguided or hyperbolic SMs), --and knowing that we have a number of impressionable cadets reading these threads-- I worry about them believing that hazing and/or name-calling is appropriate in the military and ipso facto SHOULD be (if it isn't) in CAP.
There must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member (I recall a field-grade --rated-- AFRES officer who was fired from his RAP "job" for insulting comments, and some name-calling, directed toward CAP volunteers ... as I was one of the recipients).
CAP does not tolerate mistreatment or hazing of its members, nor evidently will HQ CAP-USAF tolerate their personnel --even senior officers-- mistreating CAP members.
Although hazing MAY be "authorized" conduct for officers in the USN, it is expressly FORBIDDEN in CAP. All CAP members, thus, haze at their own peril.
Beyond that, some things are simply wrong.
Chaps,
Didn't you get the memo?
Please read the paragraph following the one you focused on....
Secondly, I said nothing about cadets.
Lastly, read "hazing" as reminding a CAP officer how to execute a salute properly and to whom...the situation I stated had me in real military uniform and the CAP officer in his or her CAP uniform......(besides, the smiley icon didn't load).
As a 20+ year veteran (enlisted and officer) I would know when and under what circumstances it would be prudent to educate a CAP officer regarding C&C and if it needed to be informal, formal, behind closed doors, or in front of CAP peers
Quote from: sandman on August 03, 2007, 03:22:14 PM
Quote from: Chaplaindon on August 03, 2007, 03:03:18 PM
LT Sandman,
While I appreciate you service on behalf of our Nation ...
While deliberately seeking to avoid any apperance of an ad hominem approach, I must --respectfully- take exception with part of your --what I hope to be somewhat less than serious-- reply, "I would think you're an ingnorant slob and I might even spend some time hazing you (because I have the authority to do so)."
This is a matter of ethics/morals ... something I teach.
St. Paul wrote, "'All things are lawful for me,' but not all things are beneficial ..." (1 Cor. 6:12, NRSV). Likewise, (per your reply) a naval officer MAY indeed have the "lawful" authority to haze and/or verbally denegrate a well-meaning (albeit, likely poorly trained ... or --more likely-- merely inattentive, or confused) civilian volunteer for the relatively minor infraction of failing to salute a superior-grade officer, but IMHO a gentlemen would NEVER exercise it because to do so would be distinctly un-gentlemanly.
Laws are laws [Regs are Regs], but moral right is not always defined by, or contained within, them (e.g. the infamous Dred Scott Decision, or the racially segregated USN/USA/USMC of WWII and before).
Granted, I may not be a commissioned "real life" officer (nor do I pretend to be), but I --too-- am a gentleman (and an ordained clergyperson) and refrain from prejudicial name-calling --even though the First Amendment seemingly grants me the "lawful" authority to do so-- and I NEVER haze people.
Furthermore, as a CAP chaplain who works closely with cadets (and as a former squadron commander and Group, Wing, Region staff officer), I have too-often had to redress both name-calling and attempted or actual hazing between cadets (and even a few misguided or hyperbolic SMs), --and knowing that we have a number of impressionable cadets reading these threads-- I worry about them believing that hazing and/or name-calling is appropriate in the military and ipso facto SHOULD be (if it isn't) in CAP.
There must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member (I recall a field-grade --rated-- AFRES officer who was fired from his RAP "job" for insulting comments, and some name-calling, directed toward CAP volunteers ... as I was one of the recipients).
CAP does not tolerate mistreatment or hazing of its members, nor evidently will HQ CAP-USAF tolerate their personnel --even senior officers-- mistreating CAP members.
Although hazing MAY be "authorized" conduct for officers in the USN, it is expressly FORBIDDEN in CAP. All CAP members, thus, haze at their own peril.
Beyond that, some things are simply wrong.
Chaps,
Didn't you get the memo?
Please read the paragraph following the one you focused on....
Secondly, I said nothing about cadets.
Lastly, read "hazing" as reminding a CAP officer how to execute a salute properly and to whom...the situation I stated had me in real military uniform and the CAP officer in his or her CAP uniform......(besides, the smiley icon didn't load).
As a 20+ year veteran (enlisted and officer) I would know when and under what circumstances it would be prudent to educate a CAP officer regarding C&C and if it needed to be informal, formal, behind closed doors, or in front of CAP peers
LT,
Thanks for the prompt reply and your clarification. Once again, I intend no disrespect.
Three points of clarification in response:
1. Obviously, I didn't get "the memo."
2. Smiley faces notwithstanding, "[t]here must not be any ambiguity about hazing in CAP whether member-to-member, or military-to-member" (my words). If we are in the least vague on this matter a dangerous "door" could be opened leading to all sorts of potential bad conduct by CAP members of all ages. Use of the word "hazing" when one really means "reminding" is IMHO unhelpfully misleading, particularly in a CAP context. To my mind it's a bit like (pre-9/11)
joking about a gun or bomb while attempting to go through airport security ... even as a joke using either noun could get a person into BIG trouble ... post 9/11 it could get you a PCS to Gitmo. Likewise I, personally, don't believe we should joke about hazing in CAP.
3. Even though, granted, the Cadet Protection Program --and its inherent prohibition on hazing and verbal abuse-- applies only to cadet members, that fact alone should not (again, IMHO) encourage similar treatment toward adult SMs. Lilly Tomlin's character of the child "Edith Anne" was forever justifying misbehavior on the basis that "mommy didn't tell me
not to _______." Just because something is not expressly prohibited doesn't make it right, good, useful, or helpful. I believe that if conduct is considered abusive or (at least) inappropriate when directed toward cadet members, it should be seen as similarly so for adults. Remember
too, we have SMs who are chronolocally younger (and therein, perhaps, less mature) than some cadets.
As I prefaced my earlier comments, I sought not an
ad hominem attack on you, or anyone ... as that would be hypocritical based on my statements about civil/moral conduct toward members ... however, I sought overtly to challenge your use of the term "hazing" to decribe lawful and/or appropriate redress for minor infractions.
I am glad that you meant something other than you wrote (e.g. "reminding"), I presumed a much. However, the possibility of someone taking you (or anyone on this board) at their word (e.g. lawful hazing) could have very harmful effects in CAP,
especially between cadets and necessitated a challenge.
Thanks for the clarification.
Chaps,
Fair enough. I concede the use of the term "hazing" could be misconstrued by those with less than a sense of "tongue-in-cheek"
Thanks for calling me on that.
To all: Remember to properly salute those officers senior in grade to your own and return a salute offered to you by those junior in grade to you, real military or not.
After all, we're all on the same team....
Be well.
/r
LT
You're welcome.
Stay safe.
/r
CD
Now, see, here is the whole reason why I started this thread. Apparently saluting IS a big deal in spite of the relative informality that I have experienced in CAP so far. I am a civilian and the whole idea of having to exist within a military social context is a bit confusing. My experience with CAP so far is one of golf shirts, occasional attendance at meetings by others in the squadron and this ongoing distinction between "Real Military" and CAP. I am not in the Air Force, but I am working with it, but I am not saluted by AF enlisted but I am supposed to salute AF officers, but I don't normally salute other CAP members, but I am supposed to salute other CAP members, I have reason to go onto a military base but I cannot use some facilities, or maybe I can...
...it's all quite confusing. I am just here to put my piloting and ham radio skills to use as an emergency services volunteer.
--Nomex
One thing that I have noticed is that some enlisted don't/won't salute CAP Officers under the Grade of Captain. They did stand at a fair resemblance of Attention. Also, military personnel are not required to salute us. They are not prohibited from doing so, though. That is one of the peculiarities of the CAP/Military relationship.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 03, 2007, 05:08:47 PM
Now, see, here is the whole reason why I started this thread. Apparently saluting IS a big deal in spite of the relative informality that I have experienced in CAP so far. I am a civilian and the whole idea of having to exist within a military social context is a bit confusing. My experience with CAP so far is one of golf shirts, occasional attendance at meetings by others in the squadron and this ongoing distinction between "Real Military" and CAP. I am not in the Air Force, but I am working with it, but I am not saluted by AF enlisted but I am supposed to salute AF officers, but I don't normally salute other CAP members, but I am supposed to salute other CAP members, I have reason to go onto a military base but I cannot use some facilities, or maybe I can...
...it's all quite confusing. I am just here to put my piloting and ham radio skills to use as an emergency services volunteer.
--Nomex
Nomex ...
Saluting CAN be a big thing, in certain circumstances. This is especially true when a CAP member is wearing a military look-a-lot-like uniform (as opposed to the golf shirt combo, for example) and attending a class or event (e.g., maybe an air show) on a military base or working on a large multi-agency ES mission such as JTF-Katrina.
As a CAP member for more than 20 years, I've had numerous occasions to use the facilities at military installations of several different branches of the armed forces.
My experience there was that it was quite common for enlisted personnel and even officers of lesser grade than on my epaulets to offer a salute and/or address me as "sir." Personally, I prefer "chaplain."
That their salutes were not required by the UCMJ (albeit, I suspect some of the junior enlisted personnel --e.g. basic trainees-- saluted "just in case") made it a real
courtesy in my eyes.
Likewise, I would
return the salute (remember -- an important aspect of the salute ... we both salute each other but it's cutomarily the junior grade person offering the salute FIRST and the senior who returns it) of any person who saluted me --in JROTC (eons ago), I hated having my snappy salute needlessly answered by a dismissive "as you were"-- and would render a salute to those of my grade and above in CAP and the military.
I would accompany the salute with a warm genuine greeting, "good morning (etc.)______."
This greeting is important too. One renders a salute to the uniform and to the grade (or honors) represented thereon. One greets the person, the human being, inside.
Outside of look-a-lot-alike CAP/military uniforms (and away from cadets, who've usually been taught to come to "brace" and rigidly salute almost any adult) saluting is unlikely.
That having been said, the greeting should still be rendered ... and if a cadet salutes you anyway ... I'd return it out of respect regardless of my uniform.
It's really not very complex especially if one wears the golf shirt uniform.
One hint, though, if you think you might have need to salute (or return a cadet salute) practice by yourself in front of mirror until you're comfortable with doing it right. A cadet might give you some really good pointers too.
Hehehe.
When I was a new cadet (I think I was a C/A1C at the time), I learned that I was supposed to be saluting cadet officers from CadetStuff.org. I literally had no idea until someone mentioned it nonchalantly in some thread, and I actually posted in response, doulbe checking to be sure I'd interpreted the post properly and that I was supposed to be saluting cadet officers before I went around doing it.
So then when I started saluting our two cadet officers every Tuesday night, I got made fun of by the other cadets. Yes, I'm being serious. But after a while, the Sq CC started getting on the C/CC about it, wondering why I was the only one doing what I was supposed to be doing. And suddenly this little thing known as "leadership" randomly happened, and the standards of behavior and professionalism in the unit improved.
That's why this kind of discussion board is so important. It gives members a chance to learn which areas their units need to improve in, so they can do what they can at their level to help fix it.
Or at least, as long as we don't run everyone off by flamin' the crap outta 'em whenever they actually have the gall to ask a question. :)
(And for the record, the squadron described above is not the one I am currently a member of.)
Sometimes it does get to be a problem. We have the issue of cadets walking by in doors without greeting the officers. We've had to repeat it with the cadets a few times till they remembered what they were supposed to do or had a fellow cadet remind them.
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 03, 2007, 05:51:42 PM
One thing that I have noticed is that some enlisted don't/won't salute CAP Officers under the Grade of Captain. They did stand at a fair resemblance of Attention. Also, military personnel are not required to salute us. They are not prohibited from doing so, though. That is one of the peculiarities of the CAP/Military relationship.
I know the CG Aux rank is different, but when I was in boot camp we had them walking around base. We where instructed to not salute them being they where not commisioned officers in the armed forces. But we where also told to treat them with respect as you would an officer, greeting them, and being courtious and polite when speaking to them. I have carried this over to CAP when I am in CG uniform I don't salute a CAP officer, or any Cadet organization officer being they are not commisioned. But like I said before, I still treat them with respect.
^ A salute is a sign of respect, and a courteous greeting. Why not just salute them, and say "hello".
Going out of your way not salute, is just disrespectful.
I bet you are even the guy that makes it a point to correct others than may have "mistakenly" saluted a CAP Officer.
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 09:27:36 AMI have carried this over to CAP when I am in CG uniform I don't salute a CAP officer, or any Cadet organization officer being they are not commisioned.
Out of curiosity, how do you know that these folks are not commissioned? As a Coastie yourself, you surely know that a whole lot of CAP officers hold federal commisions from current or prior service in one of the armed forces or USPHS.
And how would you even begin sorting the wheat from the chaff on organizations that you are not familiar with -- like other service auxiliaries, SDFs, or uniformed federal agencies that wear officer-like insignia?
Not to mention the uniformed services of foreign allies. I'd hate to have to keep track of which of those guys hold exactly what type of commissions, assuming they even have commissions in the first place.
I'm just not sure that someone's opinion of whether someone else has a commission is a workable standard for exchanging military greetings.
Thank you for your service. It truly sets you apart.
Ned Lee
You are right they may be a commissioned officer in one of the armed services, but I don't know unless they are in that uniform. It is a sign of respect to salute a commissioned officer when they are in civilian clothing, you are in uniform, and you know they are an officer. If I am unaware of their commision, I don't know to salute them when they are out of their uniform. I don't salute other auxiliaries, State Defense Forces or federal agencies. The only other service that I would salute other then a armed service officer is a Public Health Service or NOAA Corps officer, they hold Navy Reserve Commisions. Yes, a salute is a sign of respect for a commissioned officer, if I was to salute all people with military officer insignia I would salute Police Department and Fire Department Lieutenants and Captions. So unless you have been through a military commissioning program such as OCS or a federal Academy you don't deserve a salute. Paying dues to a civilian organization that lets you wear military officer rank doesn't grant you that privilege. To salute a volunteer would take away from the meaning of that salute to a commissioned officer who spent 4 years getting a college degree in the real word or a federal academy and what ever commissioning program to earn it.
Quote from: Timbo on December 21, 2008, 06:30:32 PM
^ A salute is a sign of respect, and a courteous greeting. Why not just salute them, and say "hello".
Going out of your way not salute, is just disrespectful.
I bet you are even the guy that makes it a point to correct others than may have "mistakenly" saluted a CAP Officer.
Or I could say hello, I am not blowing the person off. They have not earned the right to be saluted by a military service member. I give the greeting of the day and am courteous and respectful. My wife is a commissioned officer, she attended a federal academy and graduated with a Naval Reserve Commision, that earned her the right to be saluted. Her first salute was a very big deal being it took her 4 years of schooling and a year a sea to earn that commision. Paying your yearly CAP dues and passing the background check does not equate to that. And yes, when interacting with a volunteer or cadet organization that allows its civilian members to wear military officer rank insignia I do instruct my sailors that they are not to be saluted. This is not just CAP, but USCG AUX and other similar organizations.
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 07:05:06 PM. To salute a volunteer would take away from the meaning of that salute to a commissioned officer who spent 4 years getting a college degree in the real word or a federal academy and what ever commissioning program to earn it.
So you wouldn't salute an former NCO that went through OCS?
Or someone who has earned a federal commision but only has a two year degree?
Or someone who earned a battlefield commission?
Or any of the officers in an allied armed force that didn't go to college for four years?
I don't disagree with your basic premise that there is something fundamentally different between a CAP officer and a federally-commissioned officer who is subject to involuntary dangerous duties, but I'm just not sure that your personal standard of who does and who does not have a commission based on what they happen to be wearing and your personal knowledge of that organizations background is a workable standard for exchanging greetings.
(And, BTW, would the world end if you
did salute a police chief or fire officer? The folks that put their lives on the line every day for the rest of us?)
It's just a greeting, for Goodness sakes.
Ned, I salute all commissioned officers, my CWO who doesn't have a college degree and my CO who has so many different degrees that I am fairly certant that is where most of my taxes have gone to pay for ;D. I agree the world wouldn't end if I cranked off a salute to a person who is not a commissioned military officer. I just was trying to impress that a CAP officer is not a commissioned military officer, and therefore should not expect the courtesies honored to them. If a military service member salutes you groovy, if they don't oh well, you aren't a military officer.Now if I am in my CAP SSgt uniform I do salute CAP officers, I am a member of that rank structe when I have my CAP uniform on. As a Coastie when I have to wear my Dress Blues on I have gotten saluted in the past, "Chief, you don't have to salute I am just a 2nd Class" or it could just be that the NAVY guys where acknowledging the superiority of the Coast Guard, lol >:D
Quote from: Ned on December 21, 2008, 07:27:04 PM
(And, BTW, would the world end if you did salute a police chief or fire officer? The folks that put their lives on the line every day for the rest of us?)
It's just a greeting, for Goodness sakes.
In that vein all military members should be saluted then, from E-1 to O-10. It is a greeting reserved for commisioned military officers. CWO - O-10 and MOH winners.
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 07:47:05 PM[CAP officers] should not expect the courtesies honored to them.
On this, we can certainly agree.
Again, thank you for your service.
Ned Lee
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 07:05:06 PM
I don't salute other auxiliaries, State Defense Forces or federal agencies. The only other service that I would salute other then a armed service officer is a Public Health Service or NOAA Corps officer, they hold Navy Reserve Commisions.
First and I may be totally, wrong but, the NOAA and PHS are "Uniformed Services", one of seven, just not the "Armed Variety". So they receive a Commission from the President in their respective service, just like Army, Navy, MC, AF and CG do.
Second, Many State Defense Forces Officers are in fact "Commissioned Officers" of their State, receiving a Commission form the Governor, just like most National Guard Officer, difference being most National Guard Officers have their Commissions Federally Recognized. I know in a few States where that get the SDF Officers a salute from National Guard Members.
So you just typed that you only salute Officer that are only Federally Recognized Officers of the Armed Services. OK.......
If we want to get technical, we can say being CG, you are neither military nor are your Officers real Officers, unless they happen to be transfered to the Department of the Navy during wartime.
I hold both a State and Federal Commission. One from my Governor and one from the President (signed by the Secretary of the Army, for him of course). How far do we take this, "I only salute this group of Officers"?? That is a bad attitude most likely learned from bad training instructors in Basic training.
Get a copy of the "Armed Forces Officer" on line from the DOD publishing site, or pick up a copy of one of the Services "Officers Guides, or ask you wife what constitutes a salute between people.
Bad Form. As a CAP (and CGAUX member??) you know what service as either means, and you still don't want to salute you fellow members......OK. IF we meet, I will let you know I hold a Commission in the Armed Forces, and will expect nothing but you to stand at attention even in CAP uniform for me.
Ned on this we agree, as a former CAP cadet, I truly appreciate all CAP volunteers efforts. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't be the man I am today, and I mean that truly. Volunteer service is not without its benefits, they just might not be the ones you expect.
Thank you for making a difference in peoples lives.
Timbo, sorry but you are wrong, the USCG is a military branch all the time, we only fall under USN control in time of war and have not since WWII been under USN control.
The five uniformed services that make up the Armed Forces are defined in 10 U.S.C. § 101(a)(4):
" The term "armed forces" means the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. "
The Coast Guard is further defined by 14 U.S.C. § 1:
" The Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.
PHS and NOAA hold USN reserve commisions and are called up to USN service in time of conflict. If I am unaware of a commision while of a CAP member in a CAP uniform, , and I am in my military uniform there is nothing that says I grant them the honors granted a military officer. Sorry, but, CAP Officers are not commissioned in the US Armed Forces.
^ You can check out the USPHS and NOAA websites, the applications are for "Commissions in those respective services"...........respectively. AS I don't personally know members of either commissioned corps, you may totally be right, that they receive a USN Reserve Commission, but I just don't think so.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 01, 2007, 03:47:25 PM
I am going to an ANG base this weekend for some training and I will be wearing the BBDU... am I going to have to be saluting people when I get there? How formal is this practice? Who? CAP? USAF officers? I haven't thrown a salute in over thirty years...
Four months, 72 responses and 1800+ views for this?
You salute
anyone on base showing a grade higher than yours, and return
every salute initiated by someone else.
And if any of you are thinking about it more than the above, you just don't get it.
For NOAA Corps I know it is a USN reserve Commision, but I was going off conjecture for PHS Sir.
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 09:27:36 AM
I know the CG Aux rank is different, but when I was in boot camp we had them walking around base.
CG Aux members don't actually hold any rank at all. The insignia is just an indication of the highest elective or appointive office that they have held in the CG Aux.
As to your boot camp experience...CG Aux members are generally required to take off their office insignia when augmenting at CG units (such as those Auxies that teach at boot camp), however it isn't unusual for the person in charge of the CG unit to tell the Auxie to go ahead and where their office insignia anyway. Now, if an Auxie is just visiting a base for some temporary purpose they will probably keep their insignia, especially with the ODUs since that is sewn-on only now.
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 07:05:06 PM
So unless you have been through a military commissioning program such as OCS or a federal Academy you don't deserve a salute.
I don't think you're really getting the gist of the salute.
And it is only my opinion but, I think it is wrong to teach cadets NOT to salute appointed officers of vollunteer service organizations.
Just my two cents.
When in doubt, pop one off! ;D
Quote from: winterg on December 21, 2008, 08:57:14 PM
And it is only my opinion but, I think it is wrong to teach cadets NOT to salute appointed officers of vollunteer service organizations.
+10
Sea Cadets, ACA, Young Marines, whatever...
You see the grade, salute and move on...
Salute them all - there may be snipers around ;D
Who dug up this dead horse????? Every time we bury this horse, who was well beaten after death, someone finds a way to bring up the subject again. Another saluting topic that was last commented on Aug 3 2007. Suddenly it comes to life again!
Why can't we have a thread on a non controversial subject, say like --uniforms >:D
Quote from: brasda91 on August 02, 2007, 03:32:09 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2007, 05:57:14 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 01, 2007, 04:04:19 PM
There is no prescribed distance to initiate a salute, so use common sense. Technically it is "upon recognition," but I think that 200 feet is a little excessive.
When I was active duty, the general rule of thumb was six paces. Always seemed to work fairly well.
That has been a myth in CAP for many years. If you look at the NHQ website and look up the myths and legends, this is covered. It is too hard to tell how far 6 paces out are from the officer.
If you'd say hello to someone halfway across a parking lot, you'd salute someone from that distance. Been there, done that, alongside a real Air Force officer, both of us in service blues at the time, outside a MAJCOM headquarters building (I say all this to establish that it really happened). Six paces can be visualized, but while it's a nice rule, there's latitude.
Unless you are a Commissioned Officer and I do mean Commissioned, Non Commissioned Officers who wear the uniform as a duly sworn Airman or NCO are not required to salute CAP Officers nor are the NCO Corps of CAP required to salute Commissioned Officers.
Quotenor are the NCO Corps of CAP required to salute Commissioned Officers.
CAP NCOs don't have to salute real military officers? Thats news to me (and probably to everybody else).
Quote from: RAZOR on December 22, 2008, 01:07:29 AM
Unless you are a Commissioned Officer and I do mean Commissioned, Non Commissioned Officers who wear the uniform as a duly sworn Airman or ...
We know the rules, and that isn't what we're discussing.
No one in the compensated military is
required to salute a CAP officer, however:
A) Its a courtesy regularly extended to us because we're wearing grade and few people think it through to the point of drawing a line.
(Not to mention the general level of respect most in the compensated military have for CAP members who are there on their own nickel)
B) Advising compensated military recruits to not salute
anyone wearing some sort of military officer grade, especially on a military base, puts the recruits at risk of filtering at the wrong time.
Quote from: RAZOR on December 22, 2008, 01:07:29 AM
NCO are not required to salute CAP Officers nor are the NCO Corps of CAP required to salute Commissioned Officers.
The fact that there is no such thing as the "NCO Corps of CAP" notwithstanding, you better darn-skippy believe that everyone in CAP better be whipping salutes to compensated military officers when appropriate. CAP Members who have chosen to display their NCO grade from some other service are in no way exempt, ever, and to tell them so puts them at risk, because at some point both the CAP member and compensated officer are in the regular military and sure as heck know the rules.
Throwing commissions into the mix is silly. An Army WO1 is not commissioned. But any E9 or below had best salute that officer. Army reserve CWO 2s (either active or inactive) are commissioned by the Secretary of the Army. You'd better salute them, too, if your an E9 or below. Regular Army CWO 3s and above are commissioned by the president.
Now explain how an officer without a commission rates a salute? It is by regulation and custom. CAP officers are a different animal, but the commission thing is a red herring.
Gunner
We are discussing courtesies here. Not customs. And Miriam Webster defines courtesies as: General allowance despite facts, consideration, cooperation, and generosity in providing something (as a gift or privilege)used chiefly in the phrases through the courtesy of or by courtesy of or sometimes simply courtesy of
With that in mind, a salute is a courtesy. A measure of respect. It has nothing to do, and never did, with any form of college or government sanctioning. It is merely a way for individuals who are going out of their way to serve their society at large (regardless of pay) to recognize one another.
I apologize in advance, but anyone who makes an argument not to salute another person who is doing their civic duty does not have a leg to stand on.
Quote from: winterg on December 22, 2008, 09:27:41 AM
I apologize in advance, but anyone who makes an argument not to salute another person who is doing their civic duty does not have a leg to stand on.
:clap: :clap:
Quote from: Gunner C on December 22, 2008, 07:27:39 AMCAP officers are a different animal, but the commission thing is a red herring.
I though Communism was just a red herring.
Quote from: PORed on December 23, 2008, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on December 22, 2008, 07:27:39 AMCAP officers are a different animal, but the commission thing is a red herring.
I though Communism was just a red herring.
No, that would be a Soviet fish.
Quote from: stillamarine on August 01, 2007, 04:38:05 PM
You guys stress over the funniest stuff.
Guy asked a question, Answer it and carry on. That's it, no need for all the little side stuff about him asking a question unrelated to this.
:sigh: And I wonder why most CAP Members I mention this forum to, roll their eyes and say they can't stand the bickering.
I agree... but to be honest it can be entertaining to follow. ;) :D
Quote from: PORed on December 21, 2008, 09:27:36 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 03, 2007, 05:51:42 PM
One thing that I have noticed is that some enlisted don't/won't salute CAP Officers under the Grade of Captain. They did stand at a fair resemblance of Attention. Also, military personnel are not required to salute us. They are not prohibited from doing so, though. That is one of the peculiarities of the CAP/Military relationship.
I know the CG Aux rank is different, but when I was in boot camp we had them walking around base. We where instructed to not salute them being they where not commisioned officers in the armed forces. But we where also told to treat them with respect as you would an officer, greeting them, and being courtious and polite when speaking to them. I have carried this over to CAP when I am in CG uniform I don't salute a CAP officer, or any Cadet organization officer being they are not commisioned. But like I said before, I still treat them with respect.
Dude... you dug to the bottom of the list to bring this back up!! LOL
Quote from: Timbo on December 21, 2008, 07:55:34 PM
[If we want to get technical, we can say being CG, you are neither military nor are your Officers real Officers, unless they happen to be transfered to the Department of the Navy during wartime.
Completely incorrect. We are military 100%, even if not under the Navy's command. Coast Guard members are never transferred to the Dept of the Navy. They are simply placed under their command during combat assignments.
Regardless, the Coast Guard is a branch of the military and then some. We are the only branch that has a combattant role and are considered to be law enforcement officials as well. The only structural difference is that we are not run by the DOD. We fall under the DHS.
We in the military do not salute officers from State Defense Forces(If I am wrong, please point me in the right direction with some regulations that dictate otherwise). National Guard officers, yes, but not SDF officers. :)
This thread should be locked down forever! :D
Paul
Quote from: winterg on December 22, 2008, 09:27:41 AM
I apologize in advance, but anyone who makes an argument not to salute another person who is doing their civic duty does not have a leg to stand on.
I am not saying be discourteous, I am saying the salute is reserved for military officers. If military enlisted where to throw up a salute to all people doing their civic service this would include all federal, state, county and city employees such as: trashmen, toll booth collectors, councilmen, landscapers. I will call them buy their title much like you would call a Doctor, "Doctor" or a Pastor, "Reverend", "Father", or "Rabbi". I am not advocating disrespect, I am just pointing out when the custom is properly used.
:o :o :o ???
Quote from: PaulR on December 23, 2008, 04:54:28 PM
This thread should be locked down forever! :D
Paul
If people want to continue to discuss the subject, regardless of the inanity, who cares as long as people are being respectful. Doesn't seem to me like people are getting too hot under the collar about the subject. I think the different views are interesting. And since I didn't get in on the subject when it was fresh it's nice to be able to discuss it.
Why do I always see a hue and cry for a thread to be locked just because the topic is a "dead horse beatdown". Not picking on you Paul, just used your quote for an example. :)
Winter,
I think the reason it goes on and on is.....the thread often ends up with folks who come up with every conceivable idea on how to AVOID saluting someone.
It gets so crazy that I'm expecting stuff like, You don't salute if it's the third Thursday after a full moon in July or you don't salute if your mother nursed you for six months then switched you to formula.
Honestly it has become that insane for those trying to find a reason not to salute. They offer up excuse after excuse. A salute probably takes less than a second to execute, but those who seek to avoid it at all costs will talk about it here for months!
Quote from: PaulR on December 23, 2008, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: Timbo on December 21, 2008, 07:55:34 PM
[If we want to get technical, we can say being CG, you are neither military nor are your Officers real Officers, unless they happen to be transfered to the Department of the Navy during wartime.
Completely incorrect. We are military 100%, even if not under the Navy's command. Coast Guard members are never transferred to the Dept of the Navy. They are simply placed under their command during combat assignments.
Im glad someone said it, you would be surprised how many times i've heard this in my brief time in the CG, Its at the point where i just rarely even respond because they'll find out sooner or later. I dare someone in the military to try to argue that the CG isnt military after walking past a 3 star and not saluting.
I also feel that all CAP members should salute ALL military officers, including Warrant officers as a sign of respect, regardless of if your CAP rank is "higher" than the military officer's rank.
When in CAP uniform, I salute CAP officers and military officers, when in my military uniform I salute only military, PHS, (yes i saw a PHS O-6 last week) and an NOAA officer if i saw one.
At boot camp they taught us NOT to salute CGAUX and how to distinguish between them, and there was no issue with confusion. Some Coasties I know choose to salute CGAUX, I don't, but I offer them the same respect I offer any other civilian, I would also be offended if an Auxiliarist or CAP officer stopped me and yelled at me for not saluting when i was in my military uniform..
Matt
Quote from: markh on December 24, 2008, 12:32:09 AM
I also feel that all CAP members should salute ALL military officers, including Warrant officers as a sign of respect, regardless of if your CAP rank is "higher" than the military officer's rank.
That is a mis-guided idea. Just follow the protocol like everyone else.
We're no less a service than anyone else - different, but no less.
Leave it at that and move on.
Please explain how that is a misguided idea.
While i respect the service CAP does to this country, especially the cadet program, the officers of our armed forces deserve our respect. I know that when I become a senior member, i will salute all officers even if my CAP grade is higher than their RM grade because feel that a CAP officer's grade is not higher than a military officers grade.
V/R
Matt
Seriously? Don't get all patriotic and philisophical about this stuff. It truly isn't that big of a deal. Take it from someone spent almost 15 years in and around the military in Washington DC while in a CAP uniform. Yes, sometimes military folks look at us weird because they don't quite understand who or what we are. But the moment a CAP Lt Col salutes an Air Force 2d Lt you'll throw the whole universe out of whack.
Simply say "hey, how's it going" and return a salute if they initiate. If their grade is higher than yours, salute.
That's not only the common sense thing to do, its the right thing to do.
Quote from: markh on December 24, 2008, 01:30:52 AM
Please explain how that is a misguided idea.
For starters it violates the USAF-approved CAP pamphlet that governs this whole mess (for us), and is a general violation of the established protocol regarding saluting.
Further, it makes no sense, and it sets up a situation we don't want to be in - our bird Colonels initiating salutes to butter bars. And your desire to "show them respect" could potentially setup a bad-feeling encounter the next time a puffed-up 2d Lt. sees a CAP Colonel, expects a salute, doesn't get one and has "words".
I've seen this go sour in both directions and we don't want to be there - Goober CAP officers dressing down enlisted personnel for not saluting, and Goober CAP officers walking around either saluting everything that moves out of "respect", or even worse, actively correcting some poor enlisted man on why they don't have to salute CAP officers, blah, blah, blah.
Respect them all you want, its completely appropriate, but don't expect compensated military to understand or be interested in the socio-economic-political-histrionics that make up CAP, its grade structure, or our place in the military industrial complex.
If someone salutes you, return it smartly, if you encounter someone superior in grade to you, salute them smartly, and
MOVE ON PEOPLE!
...And if you're new to CAP and nervous about it, spend some time walking to the left of a more experienced CAP Member who is superior in grade to you and watch what he does for a while.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 24, 2008, 12:45:26 AM
Quote from: markh on December 24, 2008, 12:32:09 AM
I also feel that all CAP members should salute ALL military officers, including Warrant officers as a sign of respect, regardless of if your CAP rank is "higher" than the military officer's rank.
That is a mis-guided idea. Just follow the protocol like everyone else.
We're no less a service than anyone else - different, but no less.
Leave it at that and move on.
How is markh's comment misguided? US military officers are to be rendered the proper customs and courtesies... Period. While I love the CAP and it's mission, comparing CAP Officers to Military Officers in regards to entitlement and in the rendering of customs and courtesies are laughable to say the least. I have loved the CAP since I was a kid and will always feel that it is the best all around VOLUNTEER organization out there. ;D
Good point, between Stonewall and you i see a valid point.
Eclipse, you and I share opposite views but i would like to add that this is the reason CAP officers should have their own grade symbols, that would eliminate any confusion between RM and CAP.
Quote from: markh on December 24, 2008, 02:18:40 AM
.......... this is the reason CAP officers should have their own grade symbols, that would eliminate any confusion between RM and CAP.
There is NO CONFUSION. The AF says "CAP will wear AF grade insignia, and follow this set of guidelines while doing it". No Confusion.
What is the "big deal" about Saluting a CAP member?? Does it hurt you?? "Real Military Officers" and "Real Enlisted People" are not the only ones who exchange salutes in our society! Honestly, you need to get off your high chair and just throw out the salute, because (A) You know what CAP Volunteers do for their communities and country, (B) they wear a symbol that is wholly different than your own, which entitles most in the Armed Forces to the salute, and you not saluting just confuses the passerby more than if you would have saluted.
I think you and a few others just don't like saluting Officers for some reason and want to limit the group of Officers you salute to the least amount......as in "only Real Military Officers".
Grow up. Do what you want, but remember there are many in CAP who have Federal Commissions, and may call you out to embarrass you the next time you meet.
Final question.......when in a CAP uniform, am I supposed to salute every Military Officer even those inferior to my CAP Grade? If so, how can I logically salute the new 2LT on Post while I am wearing my CAP uniform, but the following day have him salute me as I walk around wearing Major on my Army Uniform?? I think that was the logic that either you or the other CG guy has brought to the discussion.
--------
This thread is going nowhere, we all know that we salute those wearing something superior to what we wear. Those that go out of their way not to, for shame.
markh,
I dont think that it is a matter of insignia. I am sure that we are easily identifiable to the RM side, between the old style BDUs and the screaming blue insignia. In my opinion, it is not about the insignia... it seems to be about a growing sense of "entitlement" that I see growing everywhere.
This is a volunteer organization. The purpose for coming into it(again, in my opinion) is to serve the community without any expectation of compensation, whether it be in the form of some sort of pension, health benefits, Unit Citations, and prospect getting as many salutes as deliverable from as many people as possible. It is about selfless contribution to people who need us during what could be the most chaotic experiences of their lives. It is about teaching our young people about aerospace, leadership, and perhaps offering a glimpse of what military life is about.
This whole topic(of the thread) is the number two reason I want to serve this fine organization as an NCO. I believe that education cadets on proper customs and courtesies is important, and that the practice of them being seen by our junior members is most beneficial. With that being said, I am feeling that some of what is being said here is about stroking individual egos over instructing our cadets and establishing esprit de corps.
Quote from: Timbo on December 24, 2008, 04:22:11 AM
Grow up. Do what you want, but remember there are many in CAP who have Federal Commissions, and may call you out to embarrass you the next time you meet.
And that would be a sign of very bad leadership... To purposely embarrass a subordinate in public is not the way to go about it...
I agree... CAP members should most definitely salute higher CAP ranked officers and armed forces officers. Period. Personnel who do not should be PRIVATELY counseled on the matter. Repeat offenders should be documented. But please do not expect EM members from the RM to render them to CAP officers(that is not what you were saying, is it?).
In my opinion, a RM Second Lieutenant outranks a CAP Colonel any day of the week. With you being a RM Major and a CAP officer performing both duties on your Army base, you clearly have a unique situation and none of us here should advise you on what to do.
Timbo,
I am on the same sheet of music as you. As I've said in previous posts.
Yet......I have not gotten an answer from the who so vehemently oppose saluting.
I would truly love to hear from those of you against saluting as to ...WHY.
I find the excuses amusing, but they hide the true reason why you are so against saluting.
I am proud of my association with CAP and it's relationship as the AF Aux. I am proud to be a patriotic American who, when in uniform, conform to the customs and courtesies of my parent (AF) and in civilian clothes I remove my hat during the National Anthem and place my hand over my heart. I respect and honor EVERY member in the real military. I snappily return EVERY salute rendered to me and I properly salute those who are above me in rank. To do any less would dishonor their service.
Although I have never served in the real military I come from a proud military background. My father was a Sgt/tank commander in the Army in WWII. My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS. I will honor the uniform and rank properly EVERY time.
Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2008, 04:46:24 AM
My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.
You are related to Pres Eisenhower? :o That man is a huge hero of mine!
I did not see anyone in this thread who is opposed to saluting... have you?
Quote from: PaulR on December 24, 2008, 04:51:35 AM
Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2008, 04:46:24 AM
My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.
You are related to Pres Eisenhower? :o That man is a huge hero of mine!
I did not see anyone in this thread who is opposed to saluting... have you?
Nope, but for a CAP member to decided to rewrite the rules of saluting 'out of respect' is a little out there.......
As members of CAP we are in a very unique position. MANY of our membership, despite what they wear on their CAP uniform, are entitled to a salute. For many of us, myself included, this is our only opportunity to continue wearing the uniform we love so much. How can any of us really tell or distinguish who should or should not be saluted? The saluting issue is never as important as the work we do.
I believe that too many individuals see saluting as an obligation instead of an opportunity.
It is an opportunity to show solidarity to another person who has put aside their private life for the betterment of our nation. The rank structure aside, a uniform is supposed to bind us together into a cohesive whole that is stronger than our individual parts. Maybe we should look at the whole situation as more of a fraternal greeting.
Quote from: Stonewall on December 24, 2008, 01:40:51 AM
Seriously? Don't get all patriotic and philisophical about this stuff. It truly isn't that big of a deal. Take it from someone spent almost 15 years in and around the military in Washington DC while in a CAP uniform. Yes, sometimes military folks look at us weird because they don't quite understand who or what we are. But the moment a CAP Lt Col salutes an Air Force 2d Lt you'll throw the whole universe out of whack.
Simply say "hey, how's it going" and return a salute if they initiate. If their grade is higher than yours, salute.
That's not only the common sense thing to do, its the right thing to do.
Ah yes...the time/space continuum!! We wouldn't want the universe collapsing in on itself! That would be a bad thing :D :D!! Why do I feel like driving a DeLorean and inventing something called a flux capacitor?? ;)
Seriously, when in doubt...salute! It's along the same philosophy of "it's often better to ask for forgiveness then to ask for permission."
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanakkah, Kwanza and Seasons Greetings!!!
A simple rule for saluting!
Salute to show Respect.
Return and get Respect.
I will personally salute anyone in uniform whether SDF or RM for their service!
I would join the CG if I were not to old!!
Quote from: PaulR on December 24, 2008, 04:45:25 AMIn my opinion, a RM Second Lieutenant outranks a CAP Colonel any day of the week. With you being a RM Major and a CAP officer performing both duties on your Army base, you clearly have a unique situation and none of us here should advise you on what to do.
Except for the many many CAP senior members who are current, retired, reserve and national guard officers.
Wouldn't that be hillarious. An AF 2d Lt dressing down a CAP Captain who also happens to be an Army captain; an AF captain chewing out a CAP Lt Col who is a Lt Col due to their retired status as a Navy Commander....Nice.
See, to alleviate the confusion, it is best to maintain a single standard. Let the RM do what they want, that's cool. But we should stick to our own standard.
[Edit]
I was just looking back at my previous squadron and counted at least 10 RM officers, all of whom held ranks above captain, and we met on a military base. And I gaurantee none of them,
while in a CAP uniform, would have chewed out an enlisted guy, NCO or junior officer if they didn't get a salute. Nor would they have saluted a junior military officer.
Currently, I think we have 3 or 4 RM officers (retired or otherwise). Again, there needs to be a standard.
When I went to a Level 1 course in 1997, (this was before ANYTHING was online and we had a weekend Level 1 class) a CAP captain taught that our rank was equivalent to military rank and that military enlisted and lower ranking officers were required to render customs and courtesies to CAP just as they were to CAP. And that if they didnt, it needed to be addressed on the spot.
Being a former cadet, and having been out of the Marines for about 3 months at the time of the class, I felt the need to respectfully interject. So those people are out there.
Quote from: JThemann on December 24, 2008, 05:23:32 AM
Quote from: PaulR on December 24, 2008, 04:51:35 AM
Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2008, 04:46:24 AM
My grandfather's cousin wore five stars and went on to be the POTUS.
You are related to Pres Eisenhower? :o That man is a huge hero of mine!
I did not see anyone in this thread who is opposed to saluting... have you?
Nope, but for a CAP member to decided to rewrite the rules of saluting 'out of respect' is a little out there.......
At no point did I pull out a CAPP 151 that i rewrote and say "here is the new CAPP 151" so to say that i rewrote the rules of saluting is a little out there. I informed you of my opinion, made a suggestion, nothing more.
And I think that most officers are mature enough that if a CAP Lt Col saluted them one day, the next time a CAP Lt Col didn't salute they wouldn't "dress them down" or make a scene out of it.
With that said, I wish everyone have a safe and enjoyable holiday, and remember to think about our servicemen and women overseas who cant be with their families because of the sacrifices they make for our safety.
WIWAC we were taught when around the RM that "If it moves Salute it, if it doesn't move pick it up, if it is to big-Paint it" I remember my first Level 1 class way way back in 1986, it was taught @ PAFB. We were told that the RM was NOT required to Salute or render other courtesies, but that they may do so and that we as CAP members were required to return the Honor in kind in a professional military manner.
PaulR,
Yep Pres Eisenhower is my grandfather's cousin.
So much for nepotism....my dad only made sgt in the Army---so much for his father's cousin having 5 stars !!
And all it has gotten me is Major in CAP !!!
Quote from: winterg on December 24, 2008, 07:49:35 AM
As members of CAP we are in a very unique position. MANY of our membership, despite what they wear on their CAP uniform, are entitled to a salute. For many of us, myself included, this is our only opportunity to continue wearing the uniform we love so much. How can any of us really tell or distinguish who should or should not be saluted? The saluting issue is never as important as the work we do.
I believe that too many individuals see saluting as an obligation instead of an opportunity.
It is an opportunity to show solidarity to another person who has put aside their private life for the betterment of our nation. The rank structure aside, a uniform is supposed to bind us together into a cohesive whole that is stronger than our individual parts. Maybe we should look at the whole situation as more of a fraternal greeting.
Wow... well said! ;D
Quote from: Smokey on December 24, 2008, 03:42:02 PM
PaulR,
Yep Pres Eisenhower is my grandfather's cousin.
I would have loved to have spent 10 minutes with the Pres... There are not too many people who excelled in both the military and political arenas like him.
Quote from: caphistorian on December 24, 2008, 12:05:37 PM
I would join the CG if I were not to old!!
You are not to old to join the CG Auxiliary! They often work side by side with us in the field. They are an indispensable asset! I have just completed writing a few members of our local Flotilla up for a CG decoration for services rendered(filling billet shortages in our Base Security. I really appreciate these men and women)!
I have met many duel Auxiliary members(CAP and CGA)!
If we want to get technical, we can say being CG, you are neither military nor are your Officers real Officers, unless they happen to be transfered to the Department of the Navy during wartime.
14 USC 1. Establishment of Coast Guard
QuoteThe Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.
14 USC 3. Relationship to Navy Department
QuoteUpon the declaration of war if Congress so directs in the declaration or when the President directs, the Coast Guard shall operate as a service in the Navy, and shall so continue until the President, by Executive order, transfers the Coast Guard back to the Department of Homeland Security. While operating as a service in the Navy, the Coast Guard shall be subject to the orders of the Secretary of the Navy who may order changes in Coast Guard operations to render them uniform, to the extent he deems advisable, with Navy operations.
The USCG was transferred to the USN during WWII and went back to the Treasury Department at the end of the war. Although the CG has fought in every war since WWII, it was never transferred to the USN during those wars.
Wading in to this mess might be a big mistake, but here goes...
WIWAC (NJROTC in high school and in the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets) we were taught one simple rule; salute the GRADE, not the PERSON. All of the exceptions I've seen in this thread pertain to the PERSON; commissioning authority, uniform, character, etc. Ignore all of that, look at the grade insignia, and act accordingly.
Quote from: NC Hokie on December 24, 2008, 05:26:31 PM
Wading in to this mess might be a big mistake, but here goes...
WIWAC (NJROTC in high school and in the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets) we were taught one simple rule; salute the GRADE, not the PERSON. All of the exceptions I've seen in this thread pertain to the PERSON; commissioning authority, uniform, character, etc. Ignore all of that, look at the grade insignia, and act accordingly.
You may be late to the party, but you brought some good advice!!
Quote from: RRLE on December 24, 2008, 05:22:08 PM
If we want to get technical, we can say being CG, you are neither military nor are your Officers real Officers, unless they happen to be transfered to the Department of the Navy during wartime.
14 USC 1. Establishment of Coast Guard
QuoteThe Coast Guard as established January 28, 1915, shall be a military service and a branch of the armed forces of the United States at all times. The Coast Guard shall be a service in the Department of Homeland Security, except when operating as a service in the Navy.
14 USC 3. Relationship to Navy Department
QuoteUpon the declaration of war if Congress so directs in the declaration or when the President directs, the Coast Guard shall operate as a service in the Navy, and shall so continue until the President, by Executive order, transfers the Coast Guard back to the Department of Homeland Security. While operating as a service in the Navy, the Coast Guard shall be subject to the orders of the Secretary of the Navy who may order changes in Coast Guard operations to render them uniform, to the extent he deems advisable, with Navy operations.
The USCG was transferred to the USN during WWII and went back to the Treasury Department at the end of the war. Although the CG has fought in every war since WWII, it was never transferred to the USN during those wars.
Exactly... the CG has not been a part of the Navy since WW2, although we have had units under the control and direction of the Navy during combat operations since. When I was overseas, our unit was under the control of DESRON 50(the Navy). We were not transferred to the Navy, we were simply set up to support a Naval mission. As a result are under Naval Command, but only at a unit level. There have been times when Naval assets have been under the command and direction of the Coast Guard in support of LE missions. It is a nice trade off.
It is funny to see how our government has evolved over the years. Since the end of WW2 the CG has been moved from the Treasury Dept to the Dept of Transportation to it's new home of the Dept of Homeland Security.
I agree with you completely HC Hokie. Honors are rendered to the the office(rank)
according to the organization's written guide lines, not the person.
Well Hello All,
It's sure been a long time. I happened to be building a new computer here and tried connecting to captalk.net just to see if the computer would connect to the internet. Much to my surprise, this topic I started way back when is STILL being debated(!)
Last year, when I went to that ANG base and the comms course in my beautiful blue BDUs I didn't ever see any RM officers (they must be all off duty on weekends), so I didn't have to salute any. No enlisted military saluted me, so again not an issue. Finally, while waiting outside the guy who was teaching the course showed up and I saluted him. He returned it. None of the other officers were saluting anyone. Some cadets saluted me and I returned the salute.
In other words, this was all a non-issue. That adventure to the ANG base was the last time I worried about saluting anyone. There is very little saluting going on inside CAP judging from the numerous SAREXs I have been to since. I have been to NESA at Camp Atterbury and no one saluted me there either - not CAP cadets, not enlisted military, not other CAP adults and once again no RM officers were to be found.
A lot of worrying over something that no one seems to care about in real life.
--NTM
Quote from: PaulR on December 24, 2008, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: caphistorian on December 24, 2008, 12:05:37 PM
I would join the CG if I were not to old!!
You are not to old to join the CG Auxiliary! They often work side by side with us in the field. They are an indispensable asset! I have just completed writing a few members of our local Flotilla up for a CG decoration for services rendered(filling billet shortages in our Base Security. I really appreciate these men and women)!
I have met many duel Auxiliary members(CAP and CGA)!
I live in middle GA and their is no CG Aux in this area. I appreciate the thought.
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on December 25, 2008, 01:30:15 AM
A lot of worrying over something that no one seems to care about in real life.
NESA and an ANG base are probably not the best examples of "real life", CAP or otherwise. There are plenty of bases and CAP activities where this attention to detail is expected and adhered to properly.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 25, 2008, 05:17:41 AM
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on December 25, 2008, 01:30:15 AM
A lot of worrying over something that no one seems to care about in real life.
NESA and an ANG base are probably not the best examples of "real life", CAP or otherwise. There are plenty of bases and CAP activities where this attention to detail is expected and adhered to properly.
Like Cadet encampment? ;D
Quote from: PaulR on December 25, 2008, 03:50:30 PM
Like Cadet encampment? ;D
Yes, and the only place the Navy provides basic training...
Quote from: Eclipse on December 25, 2008, 05:17:41 AM
NESA and an ANG base are probably not the best examples of "real life", CAP or otherwise. There are plenty of bases and CAP activities where this attention to detail is expected and adhered to properly.
So, really, the CAP pamphlet should be re-written so as to educate the new CAPster how to know when saluting is "really" needed and when it isn't...
Quote from: Nomex Maximus on December 25, 2008, 04:53:00 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 25, 2008, 05:17:41 AM
NESA and an ANG base are probably not the best examples of "real life", CAP or otherwise. There are plenty of bases and CAP activities where this attention to detail is expected and adhered to properly.
So, really, the CAP pamphlet should be re-written so as to educate the new CAPster how to know when saluting is "really" needed and when it isn't...
The pamphlet should be re-written to clarify what was likely assumed to be self-evident, or being provided as training by local commanders, however there is no time when saluting isn't appropriate unless specified formally such as flight lines . Never.
The fact that some other service may be more lax with their protocol doesn't give us a pass, if anything it should mean we step up our behavior to show we take it seriously.
Quote from: PaulR on December 25, 2008, 04:01:49 PM
Where is this?
The US Navy only has one base doing BMT, its next door to one of the largest Major Naval Commands in the Midwest. Google is your friend.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 25, 2008, 06:19:48 PM
Quote from: PaulR on December 25, 2008, 04:01:49 PM
Where is this?
The US Navy only has one base doing BMT, its next door to one of the largest Major Naval Commands in the Midwest. Google is your friend.
They used to do BMT down here... well, two hours east of here, at what is now Orlando International Airport. When the Air Force vacated McCoy AFB, the Navy kept part of it as NTC Orlando. Now that it's closed, the place is totally civilian.
Still seems weird the Navy has a base in Illinois. Or West Virginia, for that matter....
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 25, 2008, 06:31:03 PM
Still seems weird the Navy has a base in Illinois. Or West Virginia, for that matter....
They did carrier training on the lake in WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wolverine_(IX-64)
(http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/wolver.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Uss_sable_600.jpg)
Quote from: Eclipse on December 25, 2008, 06:39:50 PM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 25, 2008, 06:31:03 PM
Still seems weird the Navy has a base in Illinois. Or West Virginia, for that matter....
They did carrier training on the lake in WWII:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wolverine_(IX-64)
(http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/wolver.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Uss_sable_600.jpg)
So THAT'S why there are those big restricted areas over the lake...
Die thread, die!