Change in terms?

[NCRblues]

Trolling the book of faces this morning I discovered a post by the South Dakota Wing.

It stated that the NAT/PA had announced that the various membership categories will be changing.

It listed the "new 4" as

Cadet
Officer
Legislative
Associate

It goes on to state that "the term Senior Memebr has been dropped. Adult members of CAP are now identified as officer"

So, anyone know if this is real? I can't find anything on this in official lanes. Is SD pulling the wool over its FB followers?

[THRAWN]

That works if all of the adult members are officers. Since they're not, this looks like the left and right hands operating independently.

[dwb]

It was brought up in the CCC meeting. Not sure if it's final or proposed. Associate has subcategories for Patron/CSM/AEM. Legislative has subcategories for state and federal. Remember too that the "O" in NCO is Officer.

[THRAWN]

It was brought up in the CCC meeting. Not sure if it's final or proposed. Associate has subcategories for Patron/CSM/AEM. Legislative has subcategories for state and federal. Remember too that the "O" in NCO is Officer.

And some are neither officers nor NCOs. I have known plenty of SMWOG and they liked it like that.

Could call them operational member or functional member or...and this is crazy....how about something along the lines of senior member?!!? Change for the sake of change....smh...

[Майор Хаткевич]

Had to check my calendar. Though it was 2006.

[Гугл переводчик]

Is the meeting held at South Dakota wing? It would make sense for them to post it then... but finding out through Facebook definitely makes it interesting.

[NIN]

It was brought up in the CCC meeting. Not sure if it's final or proposed. Associate has subcategories for Patron/CSM/AEM. Legislative has subcategories for state and federal. Remember too that the "O" in NCO is Officer.

There will be some behind the scenes work, but the short version is that, among other things, the term "senior member" is one barrier to recruiting "younger" adults.

[JeffDG]

Yes, there was a briefing from BGen Myrick on this.

IIRC, it is in final coordination of the relevant regulatory changes.  It was presented as a fait acompli, not as a proposal.

[NCRblues]

Yes, there was a briefing from BGen Myrick on this.

IIRC, it is in final coordination of the relevant regulatory changes.  It was presented as a fait acompli, not as a proposal.

So, it's basically true.

Interesting to learn it off Facebook...

[JeffDG]

Yes, there was a briefing from BGen Myrick on this.

IIRC, it is in final coordination of the relevant regulatory changes.  It was presented as a fait acompli, not as a proposal.

So, it's basically true.

Interesting to learn it off Facebook...

Everything else was drowned out by 3 letters...

[Mitchell 1969]

It was brought up in the CCC meeting. Not sure if it's final or proposed. Associate has subcategories for Patron/CSM/AEM. Legislative has subcategories for state and federal. Remember too that the "O" in NCO is Officer.

There will be some behind the scenes work, but the short version is that, among other things, the term "senior member" is one barrier to recruiting "younger" adults.

"Senior Member" is one of those things that only makes sense to insiders, after explanation. Then the insiders get so used to it that they can't picture it otherwise.

I don't know when or how the term was invented. It certainly wasn't 75 years ago, back when CAP had "Officer" and "Enlisted" personnel, then added "Cadets." If I had to guess, I'd guess that somebody in the 50's or early 60's probably asked "What's the opposite of 'cadet member'?" and got "Senior Member" in response, figuring that cadets were actually "Juniir Members."

I hope it is gone. If so, it carries my good riddance with it.

[Fubar]

"Senior Member" is one of those things that only makes sense to insiders, after explanation. Then the insiders get so used to it that they can't picture it otherwise.

And yet, I don't think anybody has come up with a term that accurately describes all of the non-cadet membership categories we have. You think senior member is confusing to outsiders? Imagine calling CAP NCOs (both of them) and CAP Officers "officers" to someone with a military background. Get ready to start explaining again.

[NIN]

"Senior Member" is one of those things that only makes sense to insiders, after explanation. Then the insiders get so used to it that they can't picture it otherwise.

And yet, I don't think anybody has come up with a term that accurately describes all of the non-cadet membership categories we have. You think senior member is confusing to outsiders? Imagine calling CAP NCOs (both of them) and CAP Officers "officers" to someone with a military background. Get ready to start explaining again.

I've sort of taken to using the overarching term "adult members" when speaking "outside".

there's no super good silver bullet  answer.  I think you're likely to spend more time explaining "senior member" (with all the shortcomings that term has) than "officer"

[Paul Creed III]

I've sort of taken to using the overarching term "adult members" when speaking "outside".

Same here. Or "adult volunteers" works too. Not every non-military type understands what the differences are between an NCO and an Officer either but they get "adult volunteer" and it makes the elevator speeches easier and with less eye glazing.

[NIN]

Same here. Or "adult volunteers" works too. Not every non-military type understands what the differences are between an NCO and an Officer either but they get "adult volunteer" and it makes the elevator speeches easier and with less eye glazing.

The subject of my next recruiting talk "How to avoid the eye glaze in the elevator pitch."

[LSThiker]

Adult member or adult leader. I use those interchangably when talking with non-members.

[ALORD]

"Senior Member" is one of those things that only makes sense to insiders, after explanation. Then the insiders get so used to it that they can't picture it otherwise.

And yet, I don't think anybody has come up with a term that accurately describes all of the non-cadet membership categories we have. You think senior member is confusing to outsiders? Imagine calling CAP NCOs (both of them) and CAP Officers "officers" to someone with a military background. Get ready to start explaining again.

Perhaps we could daringly call CAP NCO's ( Are these on the endangered species list?) "NCO's", and call Officers, well, "Officers"? Ironically identifying those persons who have actually served in the military as what some (Outsiders) may consider second class citizens! ( Can you imagine the joy of a Sergeant Major to learn that he just became a 2LT? Get ready to duck!) I suppose that still leaves the "Senior Member without grade" category unclear. Are these "Officers"?

Does taking away the term "Senior Member" mean we don't get the 10% discount at Denny's anymore?

[vorteks]

Perhaps we could daringly call CAP NCO's ( Are these on the endangered species list?) "NCO's", and call Officers, well, "Officers"? Ironically identifying those persons who have actually served in the military as what some (Outsiders) may consider second class citizens! ( Can you imagine the joy of a Sergeant Major to learn that he just became a 2LT? Get ready to duck!) I suppose that still leaves the "Senior Member without grade" category unclear. Are these "Officers"?

Since grade in CAP indicates progress in the PD program and carries with it no authority, what does it matter? 

[FW]

I always enjoyed discussions on what we should be called.  To make it easy, I would just say we are all "members" with the subgroups cadet, patron, etc. added where needed.  I will guarantee recruitment will not significantly change with a "change in terms".  Recruitment (and retention) will change when we deal with the more important issues of improving on the areas that members willing to complete exit surveys complain about... Not having good things to do, having well trained leaders, feeling part of the unit...

[THRAWN]

I always enjoyed discussions on what we should be called.  To make it easy, I would just say we are all "members" with the subgroups cadet, patron, etc. added where needed.  I will guarantee recruitment will not significantly change with a "change in terms".  Recruitment (and retention) will change when we deal with the more important issues of improving on the areas that members willing to complete exit surveys complain about... Not having good things to do, having well trained leaders, feeling part of the unit...

nope...what we wear and what are called is so much more important than having quality things to do.... :angel:

[A.Member]

^ Agree, we tend to get wrapped around the axle on relatively trivial items.

That said, I'll play...

My $.02:

All active adult members can/should be termed Airmen (Civil Air Patrol Airmen).  This effectively addresses those adult members without grade and provides a catch all term for all adult members.  This also aligns with recent comments/direction from NHQ leadership.  Edit Note:  All patrons remain patrons, etc.
Adult members choosing to retain their NCO ranks are...wait for it....NCO's
Adult members that have earned an officer rank are...can also be Officers

Cadet members are Cadets (Civil Air Patrol Cadet)...and this term (Cadet) continues to preface each of their ranks.

To me, that's simple and straight forward.

[Storm Chaser]

I think using the term Airman would be more confusing and it would imply members in the other CAP membership categories are not Airmen.

Why not keep things simple and call senior members "active members"? And if that's not clear enough, then "regular members"?

[A.Member]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

[Майор Хаткевич]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Or...Adult vs Cadet.

[THRAWN]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Or...Adult vs Cadet.

That'll never work. Adult member? Cadet member? It's so....descriptive....

[lordmonar]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Cadets are Big A airman too.

[A.Member]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Cadets are Big A airman too.

Yep, but Cadet prefaces that term.

[Holding Pattern]

That works if all of the adult members are officers. Since they're not, this looks like the left and right hands operating independently.

Hopefully this means my internalized request for SMWOG to be converted to "Temporary Third Lieutenant" is in the works!"

I guarantee you this will increase membership!

Would you like to know more?

[lordmonar]

That works if all of the adult members are officers. Since they're not, this looks like the left and right hands operating independently.

Hopefully this means my internalized request for SMWOG to be converted to "Temporary Third Lieutenant" is in the works!"

I guarantee you this will increase membership!

Would you like to know more?

You are disturbing the ghost of RAH.

[THRAWN]

That works if all of the adult members are officers. Since they're not, this looks like the left and right hands operating independently.

Hopefully this means my internalized request for SMWOG to be converted to "Temporary Third Lieutenant" is in the works!"

I guarantee you this will increase membership!

Would you like to know more?

You are disturbing the ghost of RAH.

Terrible concept, but I grok.

[Holding Pattern]

That being said, this now makes certain conversations more annoying. We have NCOs and... officers without a commission? I'm ASSUMING there isn't a change in our "officer" status being anything beyond recognition of PD.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That being said, this now makes certain conversations more annoying. We have NCOs and... officers without a commission? I'm ASSUMING there isn't a change in our "officer" status being anything beyond recognition of PD.

Non non commissioned officer and no commissioned officers. Duh. 

[Storm Chaser]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Cadets are Big A airman too.

Yep, but Cadet prefaces that term.

Only when it relates to the grade. Otherwise, cadets are as much Airmen as senior members.

[Spaceman3750]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Cadets are Big A airman too.

Yep, but Cadet prefaces that term.

Only when it relates to the grade. Otherwise, cadets are as much Airmen as senior members.

Except, the term only applies during the execution of Air-Force assigned missions.

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/CAP%20and%20the%20Total%20Force%20FAQs.pdf

[Storm Chaser]

That being said, this now makes certain conversations more annoying. We have NCOs and... officers without a commission? I'm ASSUMING there isn't a change in our "officer" status being anything beyond recognition of PD.

Officer promotions are not supposed to be a recognition for Professional Development progression. CAPR 35-1 is clear that duty performance promotions are based on performance. PD progression is just an additional, albeit important, requirement.

[A.Member]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Cadets are Big A airman too.

Yep, but Cadet prefaces that term.

Only when it relates to the grade. Otherwise, cadets are as much Airmen as senior members.

Except, the term only applies during the execution of Air-Force assigned missions.

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/CAP%20and%20the%20Total%20Force%20FAQs.pdf

But it doesn't have to; that's self-imposed.  Same answer to Storm Chaser.

[Spaceman3750]

You're either an Airmen or a Cadet.   How is that confusing?

Cadets are Big A airman too.

Yep, but Cadet prefaces that term.

Only when it relates to the grade. Otherwise, cadets are as much Airmen as senior members.

Except, the term only applies during the execution of Air-Force assigned missions.

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/CAP%20and%20the%20Total%20Force%20FAQs.pdf

But it doesn't have to; that's self-imposed.  Same answer to Storm Chaser.

How is it self-imposed? The AF wrote it that way when they updated their doctrine.

In addition, Civil Air Patrol members, when executing Air Force-assigned missions, are civilian volunteers (with a small paid staff) of the official Air Force Auxiliary.

I'm not saying that I don't like the idea, I do, it's just not the way things appear to be designed today.

[A.Member]

But it doesn't have to; that's self-imposed.  Same answer to Storm Chaser.

How is it self-imposed? The AF wrote it that way when they updated their doctrine.

We could call ourselves Propeller Heads if we wanted.  The fact that USAF recognizes us as Airmen in their doctrine is great but how we refer to ourselves is really up to us. 

[CAP_truth]

We have active duty servicemen or women, reservists, National Guardsmen or women. How about Auxiliarist. 

[SarDragon]

Regarding the whole SMWOG thing, let's review this post from 2012. It is still relevant.

[ALORD]

That works if all of the adult members are officers. Since they're not, this looks like the left and right hands operating independently.

Hopefully this means my internalized request for SMWOG to be converted to "Temporary Third Lieutenant" is in the works!"

I guarantee you this will increase membership!

Would you like to know more?

How about " Provisional Supernumerary, unassigned 2LT ( Designate) awaiting Power Point presentations and online testing" ( Or more simply, "PSU2LT(D)APPP&OLT") Remove and replace "2LT" if the member is applying for NONCOM  or a higher "Officer" rank for specialties that provide for it. (I.e, Doctors, Lawyers, and other exceptions) or rank commensurate with grade held as active duty RM ( "Real Military" reg trademark, not Royal Marines. (I personally like to visualize our "Commissions" as being granted by some guy in a wife-beater T-Shirt, somewhere in Alabama, with a rubber stamp in one hand and a beer in the other)

First one to figure out how to pronounce  "PSU2LT(D)APPP&OLT)" wins.( 10 points for Gryffindor!)

When I am asked about CAP Grade and Rank, I usually explain our "Officer" status and how we fit into the pyramid  by drawing an imaginary line in the air with the words "Active Duty "RM" at the top, Reserves, National Guard, SMR, etc. and Whale feces on the bottom ( So to speak) I used to compare our structure to the Salvation Army, but since they are paid full timers, so they may "outrank" us. I am confident that we are above Cub Scouts ( They have adult leadership) Our status as "Officers" may allow us to claim such status according to the Laws of land warfare as " Volunteer forces" assisting the Uniformed force of the regular military. This would probably work if Canada declared war on us.

On those rare occasions where I might have reason to be in public in Uniform, I am frequently stopped by people and thanked "For my service". Rather than explore the "Reg Military though whale excrement graphic", I accept the thanks on the behalf of all the members of the military, thank them for saying so, and let them know I will pass it on. ( This happens to me almost invariably in Service Dress, "Class A" uniform, and people generally can't distinguish us from actual USAF personnel)