Has anybody heard about this?

[Treadhead]

I don't know how even to ask this question, so I'll do the best that I can.

I'm a former CAP member from way way back, so I have been out of the loop for awhile.  As a member of the CSMR (California State Military Reserve), I bumped into a few current CAP members who are also CSMR guys.  They mentioned something that sounded a bit bizarre and I have been able to find nothing about it online nor from other CAP members that I know.

They told me that there is a bill before Congress that is supposed to make the CAP a component of the AF, equal to the Reserve and National Guard.  This seemed to mean that if passed, CAP would be an AF component rather than an auxiliary.  The current discussion according to these folks was the issue of UCMJ and if/how it would be applied to the "new force".   It sounded like the plan was to make CAP into something like a national defense force (federal equivalent to a state defense force)

I am a bit skeptical as I can find nothing corroborating this.  The CAP guys that I spoke to seemed quite adamant.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Thanks!

Walt

[capmaj]

For any number of reasons, chief among which would be the resistance of Mama Blue herself, I imagine the simple answer is................ NO WAY!

[Eclipse]

You should tell those gentlemen they are misinformed.

Consider this, CAP just went through 2-3 years of every PAO in the organization hounding members to
contact their representatives and senators about a gold medal.

Do you think a bill that would radically change the structure of the entire organization, not to mention the
legal membership status of every member would be something you'd hear about from "some guys"?

[Treadhead]

You should tell those gentlemen they are misinformed.

Consider this, CAP just went through 2-3 years of every PAO in the organization hounding members to
contact their representatives and senators about a gold medal.

Do you think a bill that would radically change the structure of the entire organization, not to mention the
legal membership status of every member would be something you'd hear about from "some guys"?

Ecllipse

What you said makes PERFECT sense to me.  The bizarreness of this is telling.  I was speaking to a CAP Major, who is one of the "some guys" group just the other day and he told me that this bill was a definite reality but could produce no specifics (ie bill number, sponsors etc).  It's strange how rumors end up going from hearsay to fact....

[Eclipse]

Likely wishful thinking on his part.

[MajorM]

Dude.. Sounds legit to me... I think that's the same law that specifically authorizes us to wear ABUs..............

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

At one time CAP was a lot more integrated with the Air Force; the Air Force Reserve, Air National Guard and CAP all came under the Continental Air Command.

Those were the days of pats-on-the-back like this:



Those were the days when we got aircraft directly from the AF...and we still flew them with AF titles and in some cases AF star-and-bar roundels:


Notice the U.S. Air Force titling on the rudder

Those were the days when there wasn't the bloody stupid handwringing about "distinctive" uniforms.

Those days are gone forever.

Some CAP members are either indulging in wishful thinking or out-and-out lies.

[MSG Mac]

The problem with this is that all members would be required to enlist into CAP/ AF Reserve to fall under the UCMJ. Other considerations would include among others:

Age Requirements?
Retirement benefits?
Will this new organization follow the framework of the U.K. Air Cadet Corps?

Sounds like Cow Kaka to me.

[ProdigalJim]

Probably a misinterpretation of something that has a kernel of truth. We learned recently that the AF doctrine gurus have decided to go along with the idea, proposed two years ago (look in the original strategic plan), to incorporate CAP into the Total Force definition. That's a far cry from what "some dudes" have transmogriliterallified into CAP becoming a "component," but I'm guessing if you didn't know any better and connected some imaginary dots you could get there.

Bottom line: CAP is going to be incorporated into the Total Force definition (so it was said from the dais at the Natl Conf in Vegas).

Not Bottom Line: CAP is not gong to become a "component" and there's no legislation to that effect.

[Eclipse]

Recently?

That rhetoric has been in the ether for years.

[Panache]

Also, CAP was transferred from the USAF Air Education and Training Command (AETC) to the 1st Air Force for operational reasons which, for the average member in Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron, means nothing.  But maybe that's where they're getting this from.  (/shrugs)

[PHall]

Also, CAP was transferred from the USAF Air Education and Training Command (AETC) to the 1st Air Force for operational reasons which, for the average member in Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron, means nothing.  But maybe that's where they're getting this from.  (/shrugs)

Transfer has not happened yet and it may not happen.  It's a money thing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Also, CAP was transferred from the USAF Air Education and Training Command (AETC) to the 1st Air Force for operational reasons which, for the average member in Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron, means nothing.  But maybe that's where they're getting this from.  (/shrugs)

Transfer has not happened yet and it may not happen.  It's a money thing.

So we no longer fall under any MAJCOM?  That's quite a break in the hierarchy, going from being under a MAJCOM to a NAF.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The problem with this is that all members would be required to enlist into CAP/ AF Reserve to fall under the UCMJ. Other considerations would include among others:

It could be done as the USCG Auxiliary does.

Their members can be drawn into the USCG Temporary Reserve in time of war/national emergency by order of the Commandant USCG; when that happens the TR's fall under the UCMJ.

[PHall]

Also, CAP was transferred from the USAF Air Education and Training Command (AETC) to the 1st Air Force for operational reasons which, for the average member in Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron, means nothing.  But maybe that's where they're getting this from.  (/shrugs)

Transfer has not happened yet and it may not happen.  It's a money thing.

So we no longer fall under any MAJCOM?  That's quite a break in the hierarchy, going from being under a MAJCOM to a NAF.

We're still under AETC until AETC and ACC can get their issues sorted out. This was briefed at the National Convention in Vegas.

[JacobAnn]

The problem with this is that all members would be required to enlist into CAP/ AF Reserve to fall under the UCMJ. Other considerations would include among others:

Age Requirements?
Retirement benefits?
Will this new organization follow the framework of the U.K. Air Cadet Corps?

Sounds like Cow Kaka to me.

Plus meet Air Force height, weight and medical standards.  That would eliminate a lot of people.

[Angus]

The bill is legit, I don't know the number.  But I heard from my father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate. 

[Flying Pig]

That's what I'd love...... To be able to volunteer my time AND be subject to a completely different legal system.  Not that I'm running around committing crimes.   If I'm goin to be subject to the same standards as Guard and Reserves there better be a paycheck attached.

[Storm Chaser]

Also, CAP was transferred from the USAF Air Education and Training Command (AETC) to the 1st Air Force for operational reasons which, for the average member in Petticoat Junction Composite Squadron, means nothing.  But maybe that's where they're getting this from.  (/shrugs)

Transfer has not happened yet and it may not happen.  It's a money thing.

So we no longer fall under any MAJCOM?  That's quite a break in the hierarchy, going from being under a MAJCOM to a NAF.

This is a very misinformed question and statement. On the Air Force side, CAP falls under CAP-USAF, which falls under the Jeanne M. Holm Center for Officer Accessions and Citizen Development, which falls under Air University, which falls under AETC (an AF MAJCOM).

1st AF, on the other hand, falls under ACC (another AF MAJCOM). But even better (and more relevant to CAP), 1st AF is also AFNORTH, which falls under USNORTHCOM (a US DoD level unified command). AFRCC is also assigned to 1st AF. This would be a great move for CAP.

[RiverAux]

A search of the Congressional web site doesn't show any bill focused specifically on that issue.  If there is such a thing, it is hidden deep inside some DoD appropriations bill and as I seriously doubt any such provision exists am not going to waste the time to look for it.  Others can if you like. 

[DoubleSecret]

I don't know how even to ask this question, so I'll do the best that I can.

I'm a former CAP member from way way back, so I have been out of the loop for awhile.  As a member of the CSMR (California State Military Reserve), I bumped into a few current CAP members who are also CSMR guys.  They mentioned something that sounded a bit bizarre and I have been able to find nothing about it online nor from other CAP members that I know.

They told me that there is a bill before Congress that is supposed to make the CAP a component of the AF, equal to the Reserve and National Guard.  This seemed to mean that if passed, CAP would be an AF component rather than an auxiliary.  The current discussion according to these folks was the issue of UCMJ and if/how it would be applied to the "new force".   It sounded like the plan was to make CAP into something like a national defense force (federal equivalent to a state defense force)

I am a bit skeptical as I can find nothing corroborating this.  The CAP guys that I spoke to seemed quite adamant.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Thanks!

Walt

It's kind of hard to shed light on the nonexistent.  If you go to https://beta.congress.gov/search?q=%7B%22congress%22%3A%22113%22%2C%22source%22%3A%22legislation%22%2C%22search%22%3A%22%5C%22civil%20air%20patrol%5C%22%22%7D and find legislation that jibes with the CAP guys' claims, give us a yell.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That's what I'd love...... To be able to volunteer my time AND be subject to a completely different legal system.  Not that I'm running around committing crimes.   If I'm goin to be subject to the same standards as Guard and Reserves there better be a paycheck attached.

SDF's are subject to their State Military Justice codes and most of them are unpaid unless called into active service by their Governor.

This is a very misinformed question and statement. On the Air Force side, CAP falls under CAP-USAF, which falls under the Jeanne M. Holm Center for Officer Accessions and Citizen Development, which falls under Air University, which falls under AETC (an AF MAJCOM).

1st AF, on the other hand, falls under ACC (another AF MAJCOM). But even better (and more relevant to CAP), 1st AF is also AFNORTH, which falls under USNORTHCOM (a US DoD level unified command). AFRCC is also assigned to 1st AF. This would be a great move for CAP.

It is misinformed, which is why I asked the question.  Back when I first joined, I was told that CAP fell under Air University, and the LO's (remember those?) wore the AU crest on their flight suits.

I wonder why CAP-USAF falls under Holm Centre instead of directly under AU or directly under AETC.

I remember a rumour in the late '90s that we were going to be put under ACC, which was a headscratcher for me as we are not a combat component.

I have always thought we should be placed under AFRC (not ANG because of the State/Federal duality that we don't have).

But the moves you describe would, indeed, sound like a good thing for CAP.

[Storm Chaser]

I wonder why CAP-USAF falls under Holm Centre instead of directly under AU or directly under AETC.

My guess is because of our Cadet Programs, since AFJROTC also falls under the Holm Center.

[sardak]

Here is the beginning of the press release about putting CAP-USAF under the Holm Center in 2009.

6/19/2009 - MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, Ala. -- Civil Air Patrol-United States Air Force was realigned under the Jeanne M. Holm Center for Officer Accessions and Citizen Development in a ceremony held at the center's Leadership Hall, June 11.

Lt. Gen. Allen Peck, Air University commander, said the realignment is part of the evolution of Air University and falls under the category of an organization change request, or OCR. He said it could have been done with "a simple signature on a piece of paper," but he felt it should be done with a ceremony.

General Peck said realigning CAP-USAF under the Holm Center is the appropriate place for the organization because much of what CAP-USAF does involves citizen development.

The rest of it here: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123155008

As for moving to ACC, you can read about it in the BoG minutes beginning with August, 2013.

Mike

[Майор Хаткевич]

Rumor around the Vegas conference time was that 1st AF was going to take over CAP. As in Military leadership. Rumors are like....everyone has one.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Rumor around the Vegas conference time was that 1st AF was going to take over CAP. As in Military leadership. Rumors are like....everyone has one.

I have heard such rumours so many times...that CAP National CC was going to be replaced by an AFRES two-star...wing/region commanders would be AFRES Colonels...I heard a lot of this in the immediate aftermath of the Generalissimo's little "activities," but at that time I was on one of my breaks in CAP membership (in the CGAUX) and did not take a lot of note of it.

Personally, I do not think more AF direct control would be the worst idea, since on too many matters we do not seem to be able to police ourselves, at least at the higher grades.

[lordmonar]

I was talking to a CAP-USAF guy....and it seems like a pretty done deal.   I think the issue right now is....as PHall said money.    FY 15 is already in the can right now....so it may happen sometime next year.....IF they got the right color money in the right color box.  If not....then someone would have take it "out of hide" if they want to do it next fiscal year.   So MY guess is sometime next summer we will see the announcement with a formal hand over 1 Oct 15.

[RiverAux]

Patrick, which of the several rumors mentioned here are you referring to?

[lordmonar]

Patrick, which of the several rumors mentioned here are you referring to?

CAP moving under 1st AF and ACC both operationally and administratively.

Makes it easier for ACC to shoot cash out to us when they want to use us for non-traditional missions.

Cross MAJCOM MIPERS take too long....but COMACC can make it happen today....and figure out the beans later.

[Private Investigator]

...
Cross MAJCOM MIPERS take too long....but COMACC can make it happen today....and figure out the beans later.

That is a very good point.   

[Private Investigator]

...  The CAP guys that I spoke to seemed quite adamant.

Walt, the nutty ones are always adamant, JMHO   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Will we get to wear the ACC and/or 1st AF crest on our flight suits?

[lordmonar]

We don't wear the cap-usaf crest now. So no.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We don't wear the cap-usaf crest now. So no.

It would be cool nonetheless.

[RetiredRoadDog]

This was actually mentioned by Gen Carr at the 2013 National Staff College(NSC).  It was mentioned again at the 2014 NSC.  I was at the 2013 NSC and a friend attended the 2014 one.   

[Panache]

This was actually mentioned by Gen Carr at the 2013 National Staff College(NSC).  It was mentioned again at the 2014 NSC.  I was at the 2013 NSC and a friend attended the 2014 one.

What was actually mentioned?  How CAP was transferring from AETC to the 1ST AF?

[Private Investigator]

This was actually mentioned by Gen Carr at the 2013 National Staff College(NSC).  It was mentioned again at the 2014 NSC.  I was at the 2013 NSC and a friend attended the 2014 one.

Welcome to CAP Talk. 1st post and already quoting the General.   

[Storm Chaser]

This conversation has been ongoing for a while. I think the move hasn't happened yet because of money, but I believe eventually it will.

[Eclipse]

Honestly, CAP uses enigma machines for things Region budget funding allocations,
but present something as "confidential" or "non-Attributable" and it's on Facebook.

Since this is clearly no longer a "secret"...

This idea has been a backchannel "done deal" for over a year, probably more,
even to the point where discussions were held regarding the "spin" because many
people hearing about it were making the reasonable assumption that moving to ACC
would naturally move the emphasis to ES and other operations and reduce the focus
on AE and CP. 

What is typically CAP humorous is that any number of NHQ staffers and others
"in the know" - people with stars and eagles, would either confirm or "not deny"
the rumors, under personal blood-sworn NDA and nonattribution and then be discussing
it openly the next week.  A number of staff posted at the wing or higher in various wings
have been speaking of it openly as if it were fact as well.

The discussions were very active and specific up until early summer and then fell off to nothing.
The hope by many of those with any knowledge, including myself, was that this was being
"quiet-period-ed" in anticipation of an announcement at National Board in Vegas.

It doesn't require legislation, just USAF will and imperative. So it could happen tomorrow,
FY16, or never.

Without getting further into the weeds on details, as several mentioned, the real issue
here is money, plain and simple.  Not just how much, but who gets it and who loses it.

In addition to being a huge administrative undertaking, there are very real considerations
of people's careers and preserving existing fiefdoms.  Not to mention the wide-eyes that
will certainly occur when ACC gets / got a look at the "real CAP".

The other thing to consider is that ACC is an active-duty combat command with a
real-world mission and a lot less time for nonsense.  Those of us desperate for disruptive
change view(ed) this as a "good thing", but most I've discussed this with have had one or another
concern about the kinds of changes this sort of thing would bring.

One could hope that it starts with "So...how many people you got?" and when the answer is
"...funny story about that..." things start getting more direct.

Ultimately who can say, but one would like to think that the Stangnate-Quo^® of today's CAP isn't something
ACC would be happy allowing to continue.



"Stangnate-Quo^®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium. 
All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!

[Storm Chaser]

It doesn't require legislation, just USAF will and imperative. So it could happen tomorrow, FY16, or never.

Without getting further into the weeds on details, as several mentioned, the real issue
here is money, plain and simple.  Not just how much, but who gets it and who loses it.

I agree with the last paragraph, but it somewhat contradicts the first one. If the Air Force has the money, it could make the change immediately. But if it doesn't, then legislation may be required to allocate those funds. I don't think it's a matter of "will", but priorities.

(edited for grammar)

[Eclipse]

What I meant was that the current laws regarding the governance and administration of CAP
don't specify the Holm Center or any other MAJCOM, etc. as long as the money is being properly tracked and used, etc. properly

How the USAF administers the funds is an internal USAF thing they could change any time they want.

If the USAF needs more money, then it's an appropriation issue, but even that wouldn't be a new law,
per se, just an adjustment of the appropriation, though at its highest level the DAA is a law.