AFIADL A4/6 Question

[SAR-EMT1]

Just wanted to pop on and ask two quick questions about the Air University courses.

1) Heard a rumor that CAP members can no longer take the Air War College Correspondence course. True ? If so why?

2) Are CAP members now eligible to get the Master degree out of ACSC ?

[AirDX]

1) Heard a rumor that CAP members can no longer take the Air War College Correspondence course. True ? If so why?

I have not heard that.  The current AU catalog still includes CAP Lt Cols and above in the eligibility list.

Edit: I e-mailed AWC to ask.  Should have an answer tomorrow.

2) Are CAP members now eligible to get the Master degree out of ACSC ?

No.  AD/AFR/ANG majors/major selects only, plus civilians in grade GS-12 and above.  Only a max of 150 civilians/year will receive a quota.

[SARDOC]

This Rumor is probably based on the fact that Air University recent denied a few Civil Air Patrol Members from taking the Squadron Officer School because they didn't possess an accredited Bachelor's degree.  ACSC and AWC also require a Bachelor's degree...but looking they still take Civil Air Patrol.

As Far as getting the Master's Degree...that's an In-Residence program not open to CAP.  Do the Correspondence course and transfer it to another school...it's worth a good amount of credit if the school will accept it.

[Tim Medeiros]

As Far as getting the Master's Degree...that's an In-Residence program not open to CAP.  Do the Correspondence course and transfer it to another school...it's worth a good amount of credit if the school will accept it.

There is a DL masters program, http://www.au.af.mil/au/dlmasters.asp

[AirDX]

As Far as getting the Master's Degree...that's an In-Residence program not open to CAP.  Do the Correspondence course and transfer it to another school...it's worth a good amount of credit if the school will accept it.

There is a DL masters program, http://www.au.af.mil/au/dlmasters.asp

As I said above, it's open only to AD/AFR/ANG and select DAF civilians.  Not to CAP.

[Tim Medeiros]

I was commenting directly in regards to the "that's an In-Residence program" comment, I did not say anything about it being open to CAP or not.

[AirDX]

The e-mail I sent to AWC bounced - I'm not sure if it's their e-mail address that's bad or if the out bound server here at Hickam was acting up (as it frequently does).  I'll post an answer as soon as I get one.

[DrJbdm]

 Here's the information on credit recommendation from ACE (American Council on Education)

   AIR COMMAND AND STAFF COLLEGE DISTANCE LEARNING PROGRAM
   (Air Command and Staff Nonresident College)


    Credit Recommendation: In the graduate degree category, 6 semester hours in military history, 3 in regional studies, 6 in defense resources management, and 6 in national and international securities studies (5/04)(5/04).

     That comes out to 21 hours of graduate credit towards a Masters program. A typical Masters program is between 32 - 36 hrs depending on Thesis or non Thesis Capstone course, ect.  That course alone puts you well into the envelope of being able to complete a Masters degree with a sharp decrease in cost.

    As for the old ECI-13 course that CAP unfortunately took away, here is what ACE had to say about it.

   AF-1406-0132
CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICER
Course Number: 00013.

Location: Air Force Institute for Advanced Distributed Learning, Maxwell AFB, AL.

Length: Maximum, 52 weeks.

Exhibit Dates: 1/02–Present.

Learning Outcomes: Upon completion of the course, the student will have knowledge of Air Force and Civil Air Patrol history, mission, organization, customs, courtesies, and agency identification system. The student will be able to communicate effectively, when speaking and writing, with a professional level of confidence and accuracy; influence and direct people in the organization's mission; have knowledge of group dynamics; understand the importance and effectiveness of goal setting to an organization; and building a learning team.

Instruction: Learner presentations, lecture, and computer-based training. Topics include Air Force history, mission and organization; Civil Air Patrol history, mission and organization; Air Force customs and courtesies; Civil Air Patrol guidelines; code numbering systems; communications fundamentals; barriers to effective communication; speaking and writing; modern information systems; the concept of leadership qualities, principles, techniques and styles; the leader and the group; and officership and the leader.

Credit Recommendation: In the lower-division baccalaureate/associate degree category, 2 semester hours in communication skills and 1 in leadership. In the upper-division baccalaureate category, 2 semester hours in military history (10/07)(10/07).

 
  Not bad at all for those who wanted a quick and easy way to earn some college credit for free! Unfortunately, for those who missed out on the ECI-13 have only the Squadron Officer School for a similar issuance of college credit.

   As for using this credit, ACE has a transcript service that for a small fee will create an official transcript that you can have sent to the University of your choice, of course it is up to that particular university if they will accept the credit, largely it depends on the baccalaureate or graduate degree that you are seeking and the amount of transfer credit the university allows.

[SAR-EMT1]

This Rumor is probably based on the fact that Air University recent denied a few Civil Air Patrol Members from taking the Squadron Officer School because they didn't possess an accredited Bachelor's degree.  ACSC and AWC also require a Bachelor's degree...but looking they still take Civil Air Patrol.

As Far as getting the Master's Degree...that's an In-Residence program not open to CAP.  Do the Correspondence course and transfer it to another school...it's worth a good amount of credit if the school will accept it.

CAP members are ineligible for SOS and the others if we don't possess a BS or BA ?
Well... SHOOT. All I have is an AS.

There IS a Correspondence version of ACSC that provides a Masters. That's the course I was referring to.  I already know we cannot complete the on-site course at Maxwell.

[DrJbdm]

This Rumor is probably based on the fact that Air University recent denied a few Civil Air Patrol Members from taking the Squadron Officer School because they didn't possess an accredited Bachelor's degree.  ACSC and AWC also require a Bachelor's degree...but looking they still take Civil Air Patrol.

  Not sure all of that information is correct, one of the guys in my squadron and a good Friend of mine has completed SOS, he does not possess any college degree. Granted the work was kinda difficult since SOS is designed as a post baccalaureate course of study and requires baccalaureate level work.

   You may be completely on the mark as far as ACSC and AWC are concerned since all of the work is Graduate level work. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that Air University would require a regionally accredited bachelors degree to be eligible to take those courses.

[arajca]

This Rumor is probably based on the fact that Air University recent denied a few Civil Air Patrol Members from taking the Squadron Officer School because they didn't possess an accredited Bachelor's degree.  ACSC and AWC also require a Bachelor's degree...but looking they still take Civil Air Patrol.

As Far as getting the Master's Degree...that's an In-Residence program not open to CAP.  Do the Correspondence course and transfer it to another school...it's worth a good amount of credit if the school will accept it.

CAP members are ineligible for SOS and the others if we don't possess a BS or BA ?
Well... SHOOT. All I have is an AS.

There IS a Correspondence version of ACSC that provides a Masters. That's the course I was referring to.  I already know we cannot complete the on-site course at Maxwell.

Actually, in theory, you can. You just have to be able to fund yourself for the entire class and there has to be space available. Having said that, I haven't heard of any CAP members who have done this.

[AirDX]

CAP members are ineligible for SOS and the others if we don't possess a BS or BA ?
Well... SHOOT. All I have is an AS.

There IS a Correspondence version of ACSC that provides a Masters. That's the course I was referring to.  I already know we cannot complete the on-site course at Maxwell.

I squeaked in under the wire for SOS - I'm working on it both for credit on the job and for the college credit - I'm still working on a BS after all these years.

Again we, CAP, are NOT eligible for the masters degree-producing ACSC DL course.  Maybe some day.  When they rolled it out, only military officers were eligible.  A year or so ago they opened ONE of the three concentrations, the Joint Warfare Concentration, to a limited number (150/year) of DAF civilians.  The other two, Leadership and Operational Warfare, are still open only to AD/AFR/ANG captains. That's where it stands now.  It would be an incrediby sweet benefit if they opened Joint Warfare up to CAP majors.   

[AirDX]

  Not sure all of that information is correct, one of the guys in my squadron and a good Friend of mine has completed SOS, he does not possess any college degree. Granted the work was kinda difficult since SOS is designed as a post baccalaureate course of study and requires baccalaureate level work.

They just changed the requrement within the last year.  I signed up for SOS without a BS/BA.  A few months after that the restriction was implemented.

[AirDX]

Found another e-mail address for AWC/DL - they've gone home for the day, so no answer until at least tomorrow.  I'll give them a call if I don't see an answer on the e-mail tomorrow.

[SARDOC]

This Rumor is probably based on the fact that Air University recent denied a few Civil Air Patrol Members from taking the Squadron Officer School because they didn't possess an accredited Bachelor's degree.  ACSC and AWC also require a Bachelor's degree...but looking they still take Civil Air Patrol.

  Not sure all of that information is correct, one of the guys in my squadron and a good Friend of mine has completed SOS, he does not possess any college degree. Granted the work was kinda difficult since SOS is designed as a post baccalaureate course of study and requires baccalaureate level work.

   You may be completely on the mark as far as ACSC and AWC are concerned since all of the work is Graduate level work. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that Air University would require a regionally accredited bachelors degree to be eligible to take those courses.

That's the information directly from CAP University.  If you check some of the previous threads on this you will see that even SOS requires a BA/BS now.

[DrJbdm]

I stand corrected, I learn something new everyday. Thanks for the updated info.

[JC004]

Found another e-mail address for AWC/DL - they've gone home for the day, so no answer until at least tomorrow.  I'll give them a call if I don't see an answer on the e-mail tomorrow.

Don't go asking about the ACSC/AWC so we can give CAP time to figure out how it's going to deal with this issue with AU.  Don't want to get CAP members blocked on ACSC/AWC while they're trying to figure it out.  From what I heard, they were trying to work on a plan for this issue so CAP members would have as many opportunities as possible.

[AirDX]

Found another e-mail address for AWC/DL - they've gone home for the day, so no answer until at least tomorrow.  I'll give them a call if I don't see an answer on the e-mail tomorrow.

Don't go asking about the ACSC/AWC so we can give CAP time to figure out how it's going to deal with this issue with AU.  Don't want to get CAP members blocked on ACSC/AWC while they're trying to figure it out.  From what I heard, they were trying to work on a plan for this issue so CAP members would have as many opportunities as possible.

Figure out what issue?  Who's "they"?

[JC004]

I understand from some of my various national stuff over the past 3 months that some people at the national level were to work on the issue of CAP member eligibility for these courses with AU.

I'm saying just don't rattle ACSC and AWC until they work out a long-term thing.

[AirDX]

I understand from some of my various national stuff over the past 3 months that some people at the national level were to work on the issue of CAP member eligibility for these courses with AU.

I'm saying just don't rattle ACSC and AWC until they work out a long-term thing.

No rattling involved - just asking a yes or no question.

[DrJbdm]

 Does anyone have any flash cards or other study material they made for SOS that they can share? I'm working on SOS now and really need to focus more on completing it. Any study help that can be provided would be great.

  I really hope that CAP access to ACSC continues, that would be a sweet way to earn the core credits towards a masters degree for free.

   

[Tim Medeiros]

Does anyone have any flash cards or other study material they made for SOS that they can share? I'm working on SOS now and really need to focus more on completing it. Any study help that can be provided would be great. 

This would be nice for others taking the course as well, just be careful of use of "outside study aides" though, the AF can get picky about things like that.

[Briski]

Does anyone have any flash cards or other study material they made for SOS that they can share? I'm working on SOS now and really need to focus more on completing it. Any study help that can be provided would be great.

I bought a three subject notebook, and I'm outlining the crap out of the readings whenever I have time to work on them. That way I can review my notes, instead of having to try to reread the readings right before taking the unit tests.

The original goal was to have one subject section in the notebook per unit. We'll see how that works out.

Even if you don't have notes and outlines for each of the readings, it can only help you to start doing this now.

[AirDX]

^^^Pretty much what I've been doing.  I just read each selection, highlighted what I thought was important (or stood out as an obvious test question), and reviewed a couple of times before testing.

I've found the best motivator to buckle down and study is to schedule a test.  2 down, 1 to go, plan to take the last one on Sept. 7.

[SAR-EMT1]

I understand from some of my various national stuff over the past 3 months that some people at the national level were to work on the issue of CAP member eligibility for these courses with AU.

I'm saying just don't rattle ACSC and AWC until they work out a long-term thing.

No rattling involved - just asking a yes or no question.

So what is the official status for the 3 programs at current ?

[AirDX]

So what is the official status for the 3 programs at current ?

SOS will still accept CAP Captains or above, BA/BS now required, though.

ACSC/AWC unknown, no reply from the e-mail I sent (which may well be to an old e-mail address, I don't know).  Too busy at work to make a phone call this last week, and Monday is a holiday. 

[AirDX]

From the horse's mouth at AU, CAP officers are still eligible for ACSC/AWC.

[Eclipse]

From the horse's mouth at AU, CAP officers are still eligible for ACSC/AWC.

Does that include the new BA/BS requirement?

[AirDX]

From the horse's mouth at AU, CAP officers are still eligible for ACSC/AWC.

Does that include the new BA/BS requirement?

That's a good question.

Civilians who were otherwise eligible for USAF PME courses were always required to have a baccalaureate degree to enroll in SOS/ACSC/AWC.  The CAP University page now includes this eligibility statement for SOS: "Member must be a Captain (or higher), in good standing with CAP, and possess accredited baccalaureate degrees."  That explicit statement is not found anywhere in the ACSC or AWC description on the CAP university page OR in the eligibility requirements on the AU site.

In fact both the application form (AU23) for SOS and the application system (AUSIS) for ACSC/AWC don't ask for any educational information.

In all the AU documentation, CAP officers are considered in the same paragraph as AD, AFR and ANG officers, who all have baccalaureate degrees by definition.

Soooo.... I don't know.  I'm planning on doing ACSC, but I have another 18 months to go to make Major.  In that time I'm planning on finishing off a BS, so it'll be moot.

All I know for sure is that AU says we can still take ACSC and AWC, as of today.

 

[SARDOC]

The Air University Catalog Pg 33 under "Air University Admissions Requirements" you must Prove Eligibility to attend (CAP membership) and Academic Credentials.  Under the Sub Category of "Proof of Academic Credentials" is says


"Civilian students must have no less than a bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited college or university."

[BillB]

When I took SOS, ACSC and AWC a degree was not required.

[Spaceman3750]

When I took SOS, ACSC and AWC a degree was not required.

And Jesus was a cadet, right?

Kidding, I don't even know you .

[AirDX]

The Air University Catalog Pg 33 under "Air University Admissions Requirements" you must Prove Eligibility to attend (CAP membership) and Academic Credentials.  Under the Sub Category of "Proof of Academic Credentials" is says


"Civilian students must have no less than a bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited college or university."

Ha, you found it!  Good job, thanks.

[DrJbdm]

 It makes perfect sense to me, the academic work you are required to be doing in SOS, ACSC, & AWC is Post-Baccalaureate level work. Hence all students must have an accredited bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited college or university.

[Eclipse]

It makes perfect sense to me, the academic work you are required to be doing in SOS, ACSC, & AWC is Post-Baccalaureate level work. Hence all students must have an accredited bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited college or university.

Anyone with a reasonable general education should be able to complete this.  I can understand why members looking to try and use the credits
towards a degree or for military education credit, etc., should be expected to adhere to the pre-requisites, however those simply looking to
take the class for their general knowledge, or as a waiver for RSC should not be so restricted.

The applicability to CAP is generalized at best, so if you think you are up to it, you should be able to try.

[SARDOC]

Anyone with a reasonable general education should be able to complete this.  I can understand why members looking to try and use the credits
towards a degree or for military education credit, etc., should be expected to adhere to the pre-requisites, however those simply looking to
take the class for their general knowledge, or as a waiver for RSC should not be so restricted.

The applicability to CAP is generalized at best, so if you think you are up to it, you should be able to try.

I agree, the Issue I can see is that Air University is regionally accredited and there has to be an academic minimum for post graduate work for them to maintain that accreditation.  I don't think they are allowed to do waivers.  I do know that some regionally accredited schools will accept you for graduate work if you have a degree from a nationally accredited school.

[SAR-EMT1]

Well,

I just learned something... (This is paraphrasing)
In speaking with someone at Maxwell the recent change in requiring CAP to have a BA/BS was merely the correction of an oversight.
In order for anyone in the military to take these courses they are pre-screened for a degree. For most, it is a given considering commissioning method. - Academy provides a degree. ROTC completion requires graduating from college as does OCS.  However I know a few prior-enlisted types used to squeak through, but that changed with the requirement that to pin on 0-3 a BS/BA must be "in hand"... Nat'l Guard used to allow commissions with a Associates with BA/BS req'd for O-3. Now the Guard requires BS/BA for O-1.

End result:  Someone...somewhere, always thought that to make Captain in CAP, a BS/BA had been obtained.

According to my source at AU, during the credentialing process with the regional college folks, someone stumbled across the fact the assumption obviously wasn't true. The change was merely a correction of the oversight. SOS / ACSC/ AWC never knew  they were enrolling folks without a degree. They saw that we were CAP Captains/ Majors/ Lt Cols etc and thought that all was good.

[SARDOC]

The National Guard will do a waiver for 90 college credits instead of a BA/BS for their State OCS.  I know the Navy still doesn't require a Degree for Limited Duty Officers.  So not ALL commissioned officers have a BA/BS degree...they are limited in their career progression without it..but not every commissioned officer has a degree...but even they can't attend any of the War Colleges.  just food for thought.

[Has been]

I had a chat today with people at Maxwell who should know and here is the answer.

You do need a 4 year degree to enroll in Air War College and ACSC. But so does all DOD uniformed personnel and employees. In the past they may have forgotten to ask about /confirm your degrees. With the number of applicants much greater than the number of slots they check now.

Yes they will take CAP students but after all the DOD students have been taken care of. It could be a very long wait. RSC and NSC are better for CAP members anyway.

You can not get a Masters degree for ACSC from AU.  Some colleges and universities may give you credit (accept the transfer of credit) at the graduate level for ACSC. The exact number of credits and what they apply to is up to the accepting college/university. They may or may not charge you for the credits too.

[SAR-EMT1]

The National Guard will do a waiver for 90 college credits instead of a BA/BS for their State OCS.  I know the Navy still doesn't require a Degree for Limited Duty Officers.  So not ALL commissioned officers have a BA/BS degree...they are limited in their career progression without it..but not every commissioned officer has a degree...but even they can't attend any of the War Colleges.  just food for thought.

I have been informed the waiver went away in the last 4 years. (At least it is no longer offered in Illinois)

[SARDOC]

The National Guard will do a waiver for 90 college credits instead of a BA/BS for their State OCS.  I know the Navy still doesn't require a Degree for Limited Duty Officers.  So not ALL commissioned officers have a BA/BS degree...they are limited in their career progression without it..but not every commissioned officer has a degree...but even they can't attend any of the War Colleges.  just food for thought.

I have been informed the waiver went away in the last 4 years. (At least it is no longer offered in Illinois)

I had a recruiter that was trying to sell me on the fact that he could get me that waiver for the NC guard last year.  couple of problems...I don't live in NC and I actually have a service connected disability making me no longer qualified for service.