Special initial appointments for those with infantry skills

[RiverAux]

CAP has a number of ways in which new members can achieve a promotion after completing Level 1 and CPPT based on mission-related skills.  However, the current program only applies to those with flying, aircraft maintenance, communication, and flight instructor backgrounds.  I am generally opposed to such quickie promotions but have come to realize that they are here to stay and I might as well try to figure out how to make them work for us. 

I have suggested in other forums that we also need to do what we can to increase recruitment of ground team personnel.  This is an extremely critical skill of which CAP is generally in short supply.  So, I would like to propose that qualified infantrymen from the Army or Marines receive higher initial appointments. 

While I recognize that a lot of infantry skills are not of use to CAP, but the basic map reading and field craft that makes up a large part of the ground team program are the heart and soul of infantry life.  Sure, they will need some SAR training to get up to speed on what we're doing, but the same can be said of a CFI who comes into CAP as a Captain and has to be taught SAR theory, patterns, etc. just like other aircrew members.  They receive the bump because they have skill in short supply  that we need and from which we can build. 

Now, I'm not familiar with different ratings for skills and experience in the infantry field, so would welcome suggestions matching specific Army/Marine qualifications with an appropriate CAP rank (2LT, 1LT, Capt, and maybe Major if you match it with a time-in-position requirement like they do for some of the professional appointments).   

Thoughts?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Map reading and fieldcraft skills are basic to the infantryman, and in fact to everybody in the Army.

I would say that anybody who has completed OCS/USMA/ROTC in the Army on the officer side, or Advanced NCO school on the NCO side would be qualified to lead a ground team after receiving some CAP-unique training on General ES and technical information of crash site locations and ELT detection.

[mikeylikey]

Map reading and fieldcraft skills are basic to the infantryman, and in fact to everybody in the Army.

I would say that anybody who has completed OCS/USMA/ROTC in the Army on the officer side, or Advanced NCO school on the NCO side would be qualified to lead a ground team after receiving some CAP-unique training on General ES and technical information of crash site locations and ELT detection.

Most likely those officers coming into CAP from the Army are not junior officers.  Why not just come in the grade you are.  As for the NCO's CAP has the new equivilancy for them to come in as CAP Officers. 

[ELTHunter]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

[RiverAux]

Okay, the premise of this thread is that we have to live with the current system.  If someone wants to start a new thread discussing whether we should have the special appointment system in the first place, please do so (and I'll agree with you). 

Yes, most anyone who is in the Army or Marines at one time learned basic field skills.  However, they may never have used them again in their entire career.  This proposal is geared towards folks who demonstrated competence in this area and presumably served in this capacity for some period. 

As for the NCOs that only applies to fairly high level NCOs and has nothing to do with any particular mission related skill.  We offer mission-related skills appointments to pilots even though some of them may also qualify for higher ranks based on other factors.  For example a former CAP Cadet who earned the Spaatz Award and went on to be a Navy Commander and who is now a commercial rated pilot could come in either as a 1st Lt, Captain, or a Major depending on what part of their past they wished to draw on. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Not to be a pest, R.A., but a Commander would come in as a Lt. Col.

I was looking less at initial appointment as recognizing that certain skills were trained on active duty, and we could qualify these folks in ES specialties a bit quicker.

But, in rare circumstances, such as an ROTC or USMA grad who failed to qualify for active duty, COULD be brought in with advanced rank, such a 1st Lt.  I don't think too many folks would have any heartburn with that.

[lordmonar]

Well how about Boy Scout skills?  I mean if you are going to say that infantry skill equate to advanced GT training (and I agree) so does some Boy Scout skills.  If we assume for a moment that eagle scout is roughly equivilant to Spaatz in leadership ability and has a lot of manditory feild training (which Spaatz does not), how about advance promotion for Eagle Scouts?

[afgeo4]

Combat Infantrymen's specialty isn't orienteering or map reading, it's killing. A specialty that's as irrelevant to CAP's mission as ballet dancing.  Now, if you'd like, we could suggest special promotions for combat medics/pararescuemen/naval hospital corpsmen. Their jobs are to save lives in field conditions and they can plot azimuths pretty well too.

[RiverAux]

Combat Infantrymen's specialty isn't orienteering or map reading, it's killing.

But in order to do that they need to know quite a bit about orienteering and map reading. 

None of the mission related skills appointments match up exactly with CAP needs.  That CFI that comes in as a Captain might have been an airline pilot and not have flown a light aircraft in 40 years.  Who knows why we give mechanics "mission-related" appointments since CAP has severely restricted what maintenance we let our people do. 

But these folks possess the basic skills that CAP needs to accomplish its mission.

[Major_Chuck]

Combat Infantrymen's specialty isn't orienteering or map reading, it's killing. .

Sorry, as a Soldier this wording is really irking the crap out of me right now.

All Soldiers regardless of MOS are an infantryman at the basic level.  Medics, cooks, truck drivers, helicopter pilots, etc.  We are all trained with the basics to survive in the field, to navigate through terrain, and trained to be leaders on various levels.  All skills that can be applied easily to Civil Air Patrol.

Infantry, whether in combat or peace are trained to maintain the peace, provide aid and assistance, and yes be a show of force either as a deterant or to carry out a mission of armed force.

We do more than just ...killing.

[flyguy06]

As a current serving Infantry officer (1LT) I think that skills like map reading are played out . We dont really use them like we used to. I just returned from Iraq and can trell you I never used a compass or topo map. IWith technology today we have other equipment that can do the navigating. In todays war environment we dont travel on foot. The mission of the Infantry has changed. No more is it taking and holding land. Today the mission is community relations and nation building. Very differant from 20 years ago.

DO I think Infantrymen should be given special considerations? no. For one thing, females would complain about it because hey arent in the Infantry and number 2, its not really neccessary.

[mikeylikey]

How about field artillery officers.  They have extensive, if not more training in compass junk than infantry officers.  They are also weather experts on a certain level, as well as have all the same training that the infantry guys have.  Can they come in at a higher rank too? 

I say get rid of all the advanced appointments in CAP, except for those with prior service.  Why does the guy who knows how to fly get to start out as a CAPT?  WHy does an accountant who has a degree start out higher than others with a degree.  I have a degree, its not in accounting or nursing so I don't start out higher.  Comes down to being fair, and the current system is not fair. 

[Rangersigo]

Combat Infantrymen's specialty isn't orienteering or map reading, it's killing. A specialty that's as irrelevant to CAP's mission as ballet dancing.  Now, if you'd like, we could suggest special promotions for combat medics/pararescuemen/naval hospital corpsmen. Their jobs are to save lives in field conditions and they can plot azimuths pretty well too.

Well this is a somewhat naive....and poorly worded comment... 

I would not go so far as saying the comment is ignorant - but uninformed for sure...

I served as an Infantry soldier for a long time...  I would not say that an Infantryman in general would warrant advance in rank, but some of the courses might.

I attended Ranger, Pathfinder, SERE, Air Assault, etc...  These are very transferable skills - I will try to explain.

The Ranger Course is the Army's premier leadership school - yes leadership.  It should qualify in my opinion at least as a Ground Team skill of some sort.

Air Assault - besides rappeling, deal a large part with Aircraft management - although rotary...

SERE - Survival, Resist, Escape, Evade -again ground skills, compass, etc...

Pathfinder - this has a direct relation - aircraft management, setup DZ, PZz and LZs, pattern management, etc.

Should we establish correlations for all these - probably not.  Should we recognize skills brought to an organization - would be foolish not to...

[ZigZag911]

A big part of the problem is lack of understanding by civilians in senior CAP posts ( such as wing ES directors) who need to make the call on granting mission-skill equivalency.

I know of several cases in which Army NCOs (E7 to E9 range) with Special Forces and/or  Ranger backgrounds (in at least one case, as instructor!) were told that they could take a "challenge exam" to demonstrate their skills to the cadre of the wing ES school, most of whom were cadet officers!

The MSGTs and SGTMAJs concerned passed up this 'opportunity', and as a result their very significant field skills are not at the disposal of CAP for missions or training.

I understand how they feel.....I am an educator with more than 25 years experience, mostly college & secondary school teaching (I was a member for some years before I got into teaching, so I did  not one receive an initial rank as an educator).....the same wing staff types told me I could instruct for them AFTER taking "Train the Trainer"....which, at least at that point, consisted of spending the best part of a day listening to a cadet officer read from a notebook explaining how to prepare a class, plan a curriculum, design an exam....

Is there always something new to learn, or something worth reviewing?

Of course.

Can we learn things even from those with much less knowledge or experience?

Sometimes, sure.

But -- there comes a point when  bureaucracy degenerates into insanity AND inanity!

[RiverAux]

The Ranger Course is the Army's premier leadership school - yes leadership.  It should qualify in my opinion at least as a Ground Team skill of some sort.

Air Assault - besides rappeling, deal a large part with Aircraft management - although rotary...

SERE - Survival, Resist, Escape, Evade -again ground skills, compass, etc...

Pathfinder - this has a direct relation - aircraft management, setup DZ, PZz and LZs, pattern management, etc.

I've got no problem modifying my proposal to recognize these sorts of specific courses rather than infantry qualifications in general.  I think the Ranger and Pathfinder would be most appropriate and any Marine equivalents. 

I know of several cases in which Army NCOs (E7 to E9 range) with Special Forces and/or  Ranger backgrounds (in at least one case, as instructor!) were told that they could take a "challenge exam" to demonstrate their skills to the cadre of the wing ES school, most of whom were cadet officers!

If they weren't actually qualified in the CAP skills I would agree that they shouldn't have automatically been put on staff.  I wouldn't make such people take classes but if they can ace the tasks in the guidebook based on their prior experience, it shouldn't be a big deal. 

We make everyone demonstrate their skill.  We just don't accept private pilots to fly our planes without testing them ourselves even if they've got thousands of hours in the make and model we fly. 

[ZigZag911]

If they weren't actually qualified in the CAP skills I would agree that they shouldn't have automatically been put on staff.  I wouldn't make such people take classes but if they can ace the tasks in the guidebook based on their prior experience, it shouldn't be a big deal. 

I apologize for my lack of clarity....no one was seeking to put them on any staff....their unit commanders wanted to issue 101Ts (which were still in use, this is about 7-8 years back) and allow these individuals to demonstrate their skills in the field, on missions.

The Powers That Were wanted them to sit through classes they had probably taught for the Army.

[ZigZag911]

We make everyone demonstrate their skill.  We just don't accept private pilots to fly our planes without testing them ourselves even if they've got thousands of hours in the make and model we fly. 

Yes...and its the right thing to do....but we don't send them back to "CAP flight school" to learn the basics all over again.

[EMdude]

Every soldier in the Army has a fair amount of map reading / navigation training.  There is merit in looking at how some ES skills can be met by virtue of this training, with an abbreviated skills challange.  I understand the idea of special appointment, but don't think this skill raises to that level.

For credibility sake, I have a CIB, and was a Feld Artillery officer.

[Eclipse]

There is no requirement that anyone attend any class for any ES qualification or rating.

What is required is the DEMONSTRATION of a given skill, the CAP way.

You grab the book, see the specific of the given tasks, and then demonstrate to an SET that you can do x-y-z.  The demonstration is objective, and important in terms of liability protection for all involved.

Just because you SAY you were a Ranger, doesn't mean you could read a map or lead people, but with that said, any Ranger, or similar, should be able to take our curriculum and dance circles around it, meaning that he could DEMONSTRATE the needed tasks very easily.

The key is DEMONSTRATE.  As an SET, I am signing off that I am comfortable with your level of understanding and ability.  If I take your word for it, and then you hurt yourself or someone else, or violate a CAP reg, I am the one who could be held potentially liable.

But again, owing to the fact that the GT curriculum is almost verbatim from the USAF Survival Manual, and that book is a derivative of the Army manual, anyone who is reasonably current on their field skills from a military service will have ZEE-RO problem.

People with prior service, especially in related skills, should be given the benefit of the doubt, but not a pass.

Would I expect a Seal to listen to me explain how to use a compass?  Of course not.  Would I expect him to go and find the 6 targets like everyone else?  Yes.

[RiverAux]

The Powers That Were wanted them to sit through classes they had probably taught for the Army.

Well, that was just dumb.  As was pointed out there is no requirement that anyone take a particular class before being tested in any of the ES specialties if they think they can test out of them. 

[DNall]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

Well, I subjectively share that one with ya. I really think we need to knock down a lot of that stuff. If you need to bribe someone in the door, then you don't need that kind of member. You also don't need to stomp on the people who put in years of hard work moving thru thaose grades. When a doctor comes in the military they make them a Captain. That's for two reasons: first, to place them in command over nurses/med staff; & second, because they've decided the respect/authority associated w/ Capt is what's required to get people to listen to you as a doctor - hell if I know what the formula is. You see though how that's the same kind of system we use for certain staff positions get full Colonel? They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic. It's not about getting people in the door or that their outside skill makes them this or that. I think we probably all bring something special to CAP in our own way.

So no joy for ground punders. Not unless you want to make self-employed/retired a skill that warrants advanced promotion cause they have time to give. It's already way far out of hand & needs reeling in.

[flyguy06]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

Well, I subjectively share that one with ya. I really think we need to knock down a lot of that stuff. If you need to bribe someone in the door, then you don't need that kind of member. You also don't need to stomp on the people who put in years of hard work moving thru thaose grades. When a doctor comes in the military they make them a Captain. That's for two reasons: first, to place them in command over nurses/med staff; & second, because they've decided the respect/authority associated w/ Capt is what's required to get people to listen to you as a doctor - hell if I know what the formula is. You see though how that's the same kind of system we use for certain staff positions get full Colonel? They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic. It's not about getting people in the door or that their outside skill makes them this or that. I think we probably all bring something special to CAP in our own way.

So no joy for ground punders. Not unless you want to make self-employed/retired a skill that warrants advanced promotion cause they have time to give. It's already way far out of hand & needs reeling in.

DNALL<

Military Doctors do NOT command Nurses. You have Nurses that are MAJ's and Lt COL's. Dr's are forbidden from command. You have Medical Services Officers that do that. Dr's just doctor.

[Eclipse]

They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic.

The fallacy with that proposal is that anyone would respect a Col, or even listen to them, just because of the birds.

A Wing SE has a number of levels of "go-no go" authority based on the SE position, and zero anywhere else, as does anyone who doesn't have the word "Commander" on the their business card.

They can suggest, they can ask, and in certain situations, generally mission scenarios or CPPT areas, can bring things to a halt, but beyond that, and without the Wing CC's signature, they are simply staffers with no command authority.  So bumping them all the way to a star would have little meaning.

I personally will not grant anyone advanced promotion unless they have completed AFIDL-13, or OCS/NCOA.  This will insure that they are either versed in CAP culture, or have enough military background to understand "The Way" and catch up.  It also is a quick indicator if they are actually interested in the PROGRAM or the GRADE.

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

And what's the point anyway? In addition to legal command authority, officers get paid commensurate with their grade AND generally get responsibility (on some level whether its command, or responsible for a $30m airplane, or responsible for someone's life, etc.).  They earned the grade, and continue to do so as they serve.

Not so in CAP.  We have so many "Senior Captains" in its not funny.  Guys with railroad tracks for 13+ years.

You get your grade, with no inkling you have to even show up to meetings, and no responsibility at all.  There's no extra money in it, so why do people care?  In fact, for most of them it was CRITICAL to get the initial bump, but then they don't care enough about grade from there to bother to catch up their PD to move forward. Lazy all the way. 

In many cases these guys are the core of CAP's problems - "zipper-bag wearing sun-gods" who think their poop doesn't stink and don't have time to be bothered with trivialities like regs and procedures.  They only know enough about the program to be able to fly cheap, never attend missions, and pontificate for hours about AOPA, Silver Wings, etc., but couldn't fill out a 104 to save their (or someone else's) lives.

And many of us who did actually bust our asses for the silly bling DO resent those who are bumped ahead of us and then don't contribute.  I admit to human frailties!

There's no money in it, no command authority, and in many cases special appointments just bring resentment, especially if the new officer thinks he's going to run things.

So what's the point?

[dmac]

For those who say doctors cannot command, check the following link:

http://www.bragg.army.mil/www-44md/commander_bio.htm

That is for the commander of the 44th Medical Command, a part of the 18th Airborne Corps at Ft. Bragg NC. When I joined the National Guard in 1982, I was in a Med CO in a Support BN and my first commander was an MD and the second was a DDS. Doctors and nurses can command medical units and routinely do so. Lawyers can command as well but they command legal agencies within the military, not line units.  A former Nebraska wing commander was also a CAP legal officer. Chaplains are forbidden to command.

The proposal for Wing Safety Officers was for the grade of Major with 2 years in the position and completion of Level II, not Colonel.

Capt Williams, it would seem that as you are exercising your right as a commander as far as promotions, it would also seem if it is a squadron policy, it would be in contravention to the promotion regulation, setting additional requirements as these individuals are not required by the regulation to make.

From CAPR 35-5

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

There is no requirement for lawyers, doctors, chaplains, educators, and accountants to take AFIADL-13 at anytime during their time in Civil Air Patrol for promotion. I am not saying they shouldn't take it. I think they should but it isn't a requirement unless these individuals choose to pursue the Officer Training Awards.

Just my 2 cents worth

Darrell R. McMillan, Lt Col, CAP
Inspector General, NEWG

[Eclipse]

Put that way, its hard to argue, and I am one of the first to complain about things like NYWG's old policies, etc.

I'll have to rethink this - I thought I was doing a good thing with this, and got a fair amount of support internally and from other unit commanders.

Its never come up as an issue other than the discussion of it at various times.

I am likely on thin ice, specifically saying "you must jump through hoop "X", but...

With regards to special appointments

e. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.

f. Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

So there's also no requirement that I submit a special appointment promotion, either (though that is walking the same street, too).  As in "...you're the 28th CFI I have and you have no intentions of doing instruction, or you're a Dr. not interested in being a medical officer..."

Section "e", to me, says you have to do more than just pay your initial fee and complete level I, you have to actually DO something to merit the bump.

There has been some talk about knocking people back down a grade for not performing the thing they were brought in for.  And the whole idea of advanced grade falls on its face when you get to the teachers, lawyers, and accounts. 

You're going to tell me a teacher with a masters in art history, or a CPA, deserves Captain more than a Ranger?

At the end of the day, how I apply #f above is very subjective, and the sole "sanity valve" to this.

Then you have to ask the question; "Is a new member, who is so focused on getting meaningless grade based on outside skills, that he would file a complaint with an upper echelon the kind of people we want in CAP?"

Which would have more weight?  My discretion as a CC or his request for promotion?

It’s a tough one.  But IMHO this CFI=Capt nonsense has caused us more trouble than most are worth.

So you follow the program, and wind up with a bunch of Senior Captains who don't know the program and don't intend to learn it, or you raise the bar and break regs…

[Hotel 179]

Which would have more weight?  My discretion as a CC or his request for promotion?

Since the reg says that the commander "may" then that is different from "shall"....also, you have already mentioned that the person must be doing the job that warranted the special promotion.

I am also one of the folks that could fit into a several slots as I am a professional educator with an Educational Specialist Degree and 18 years experience, a mission rated pilot, and have been in a command slot for 2 years....pick your promotion, except that I am not serving as an Aerospace Education Officer.  That would be like asking the postman to take a walk.

Happy New Year....

[dmac]

I actually agree with you about the part of just paying the fee and getting promoted, and not participating, the only part I was talking about was the requiring of AFIADL-13 for an initial appointment. CFI's and other mission related skill appointment personnel still must meet the requirements for duty performance promotions after initial appointments. Substandard or no performance shouldn't be rewarded but to arbitrarily add requirements smacks of the infamous NYWG promotion reg. That's all I was addressing and your intentions are very admirable. You can still deny recommendations without adding requirements. If someone doesn't know much about CAP, fix that problem. I have seen active duty Lt Cols denied promotion to Lt Col in CAP because of their lack of knowledge, it is still a commander's prerogative to disapprove promotions for persons that are not performing up to standard. Individuals denied promotion should be counseled as to why the promotion is being denied and what it will take to rectify the situation. If individuals aren't performing their duties in a satisfactory manner, you as the commander can make that call.

As far as intial appointments for an educator versus say an Army Ranger, there are provisions that a commander can recommend individuals for advanced appointments based on skills that may be beneficial to CAP. There was no intention to say that an educator is more worthy of advanced grade than anyone else, just a recognition of their skills that could contribute to our aerospace education mission. Before the provision for senior NCOs being allowed advanced grade, I have seen recommendations for these special promotions in recognition of their unique skills(not just rangers).

Darrell McMillan, Lt Col, CAP

[sandman]

They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic.

The fallacy with that proposal is that anyone would respect a Col, or even listen to them, just because of the birds.

A Wing SE has a number of levels of "go-no go" authority based on the SE position, and zero anywhere else, as does anyone who doesn't have the word "Commander" on the their business card.

They can suggest, they can ask, and in certain situations, generally mission scenarios or CPPT areas, can bring things to a halt, but beyond that, and without the Wing CC's signature, they are simply staffers with no command authority.  So bumping them all the way to a star would have little meaning.

I personally will not grant anyone advanced promotion unless they have completed AFIDL-13, or OCS/NCOA.  This will insure that they are either versed in CAP culture, or have enough military background to understand "The Way" and catch up.  It also is a quick indicator if they are actually interested in the PROGRAM or the GRADE.

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

And what's the point anyway? In addition to legal command authority, officers get paid commensurate with their grade AND generally get responsibility (on some level whether its command, or responsible for a $30m airplane, or responsible for someone's life, etc.).  They earned the grade, and continue to do so as they serve.

Not so in CAP.  We have so many "Senior Captains" in its not funny.  Guys with railroad tracks for 13+ years.

You get your grade, with no inkling you have to even show up to meetings, and no responsibility at all.  There's no extra money in it, so why do people care?  In fact, for most of them it was CRITICAL to get the initial bump, but then they don't care enough about grade from there to bother to catch up their PD to move forward. Lazy all the way. 

In many cases these guys are the core of CAP's problems - "zipper-bag wearing sun-gods" who think their poop doesn't stink and don't have time to be bothered with trivialities like regs and procedures.  They only know enough about the program to be able to fly cheap, never attend missions, and pontificate for hours about AOPA, Silver Wings, etc., but couldn't fill out a 104 to save their (or someone else's) lives.

And many of us who did actually bust our asses for the silly bling DO resent those who are bumped ahead of us and then don't contribute.  I admit to human frailties!

There's no money in it, no command authority, and in many cases special appointments just bring resentment, especially if the new officer thinks he's going to run things.

So what's the point?

I feel I need to take you to task on this one too...

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

You are not the military...why would you insist on treating your people so bad? (let me talk to them...I'll have them go over your head too if you like )

[BlackKnight]

This whole concept of special promotions assumes that everyone is following the rules as written.  Frequently they don't.  I've seen new members walk in the door and immediately slap on Captain's bars- no paperwork required, no questions asked.  Maybe they had Army or NG experience, maybe not.  The argument was successfully made that they needed "field promotion" to accomplish their squadron level duty assignment. I've seen the Aerospace Education - Educator loophole abused and twisted beyond recognition, with members who couldn't begin to tell you the difference between yaw and pitch given an AE instructor duty assignment so they could qualify for instant promotion to Captain or Major. And I've seen doctors promoted from Captain all the way up to LtCol simply by paying their national dues every year and never attending a single CAP meeting or activity. 

We can discuss these proposals all day long but it really doesn't matter- IMO the current special promotion system is completely broken.  It's a wonder the other services have any respect at all for our grade structure.  I've heard the phrase "Silly Air Patrol" far too often in this regard.

And I agree 100% with Lordmonar-  In a ground team emergency I'd pick an Eagle Scout almost every time over an average cadet officer (even a Spaatzen) because most Eagle scouts have thoroughly mastered 90% of the GTM skill set. The exceptions being familiarization with our communications protocols, the Incident Command Structure, and the legal aspects of CAPR 60-3.  Of course we never get to test this concept because unlike other ES or Prof. Dev. areas, CAP permits no credit for prior skills in the GTM/UDF realm.  So even if you're Daniel Boone or Buffalo Bill reincarnated we're still required to train you on how to read a compass before you can be trusted to ride around with the rest of the ground team in a CAP van.

[arajca]

And I agree 100% with Lordmonar-  In a ground team emergency I'd pick an Eagle Scout almost every time over an average cadet officer (even a Spaatzen) because most Eagle scouts have thoroughly mastered 90% of the GTM skill set. The exceptions being familiarization with our communications protocols, the Incident Command Structure, and the legal aspects of CAPR 60-3.  Of course we never get to test this concept because unlike other ES or Prof. Dev. areas, CAP permits no credit for prior skills in the GTM/UDF realm.  So even if you're Daniel Boone or Buffalo Bill reincarnated we're still required to train you on how to read a compass before you can be trusted to ride around with the rest of the ground team in a CAP van.

Gotta raise the BS flag. We don't have to train someone. They have to demonstrate they have mastered the skills. Whether that comes from a CAP class, US Army course, BSA Jamboree, whatever. The source of the training is irrelevent as long as they can perform the skills to CAP's satisfaction. I have seen many folks "challenge" the SQTR without a problem, even though they have not been through any "approved" CAP courses or schools for GTM.

Also, are you comparing the Eagle Scout to a GTM qualified cadet officer or just any cadet officer you happen to see? If the former, you need to train your GTM qualified people better, if the latter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

[floridacyclist]

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

You are not the military...why would you insist on treating your people so bad? (let me talk to them...I'll have them go over your head too if you like )

So now any time your commander says something you don't like you're just supposed to climb over his head and get your way anyway? And this is supposed to be military/professional?

While I may not completely agree with the idea of requiring members to pass additional special requirements to promote (and that is against the regs to do so blatantly, which does seem to be the case here), I do believe in asking for more than a pulse and proof of outside position before signing the CAPF2.

I also however believe that members should voluntarily pass AFIADL 13 before seeking advanced promotions to Captain or above (especially above) and have counseled members on such. They should at least make it a very high priority along with other PD goals. A big part of my reasoning is that folks seeing you wearing those oak leaves are going to assume that you know something about CAP and you really don't want to be embarassed when they find out that you know as much or less than the average cadet airman.

That said, I would have no problem with a regulation change allowing special appointments to only substitute for the TIG requirements while still requiring the member to meet all other requirements such as PD standards and AFIADL 13. While I recognize that such appointments are primarily a recruiting/retention tool, I don't think that being allowed to make advanced grade at your own pace rather than having to wait for theTIG requirements would be such a bad incentive and would actually encourage these folks to study and learn about CAP.

[Eclipse]

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

Awesome!  Great attitude.  I'm sure that did wonders for your working relationship and the unit's cohesion.

How high, exactly would you go before you stopped?  Wing, Region?

At least I can understand, what with the extra money and respect and all.

All I can say is, if you did that to me, from that point forward I would do every thing I could for you - all further promotions, ES paperwork and anything else you needed would be prepared early to make sure it was always submitted timely, and any doors you needed opened, or wheels greased would happen no questions. 

You would always be granted the benefit of the doubt in all aspects of CAP and never held to the letter of the reg. 

[Eclipse]

Also, are you comparing the Eagle Scout to a GTM qualified cadet officer or just any cadet officer you happen to see? If the former, you need to train your GTM qualified people better, if the latter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Yes - Eagle is equivelent to Spaatz in that it is the highest award of the org, but has nothing to do with their field abilities. They could have concentrated on more academic and social badges and be no more (or less able than a GT3-T).

The Boy Scouts doesn't really have an equivelent program to our GT's.  Yes they do plenty of adventure stuff, but they have no Congressionally mandated mission, and therefore their training and goals are more self-growth and community service orientated, versus CAP which is mission-focused.

[lordmonar]

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

Awesome!  Great attitude.  I'm sure that did wonders for your working relationship and the unit's cohesion.

How high, exactly would you go before you stopped?  Wing, Region?

If you think that you are being treated unfairly?  National of course. 

I don't understand your reaction?  The member was not satisfied by his commander's action and he took it up the chain of command.  Is this not what we teach our cadets to do all the time.  Chain of command, chain of command.

"OH don't use the chain of command because you will ruin unit cohesion!"  BS!

At least I can understand, what with the extra money and respect and all.

Hell yes!  We give good money and time to this program and we are ENTITLED to every promotion that we can get.  Why not question the unit commander's dedication to unit cohesion and morale?  What reason would he hold back the promotion.  Maybe he is one of these...I just don't like advanced promotion guys....which is not in the spirit of the regulation...but withing the letter of the law.

[lordmonar]

The Boy Scouts doesn't really have an equivalent program to our GT's.  Yes they do plenty of adventure stuff, but they have no Congressionally mandated mission, and therefore their training and goals are more self-growth and community service orientated, versus CAP which is mission-focused.

?

What does having a congressionally mandated mission have to do with field skills and how the training evolved.  Both CAP and BSA developed their training IAW their training objectives. 

Anyway...I have don't want Eagle Scouts credited with GTM qualification....like it has been said manytimes....all you have to do is demonstrate the skill to a SET qualified (and task qualified) individual and you are golden.

What I want is Eagle Scout to equate to an advanced promotion.  Maybe not to Capt like Spaatz but to 1st Lt would be about right.

[Eclipse]

What reason would he hold back the promotion.  Maybe he is one of these...I just don't like advanced promotion guys....which is not in the spirit of the regulation...but withing the letter of the law.

I have no idea why he was denied, and don't care, if Group CC's are going to go around over-riding Unit CC's decisoin on silliness like advanced grade promotions, they might as well just replace the unit CC, rather than killing his local command authority by over-riding him.

[BlackKnight]

Gotta raise the BS flag. We don't have to train someone. They have to demonstrate they have mastered the skills. Whether that comes from a CAP class, US Army course, BSA Jamboree, whatever. The source of the training is irrelevent as long as they can perform the skills to CAP's satisfaction. I have seen many folks "challenge" the SQTR without a problem, even though they have not been through any "approved" CAP courses or schools for GTM.

Actually, we do have to train them.  The ROA comm class is required for GTM3. Doesn't matter that you may have spent 20 years as an AF comm specialist.  As is a certified first aid course from a licensed instructor. BSA First Aid training doesn't cut it, even though IMO the BSA training is more applicable to our GTM operations than the Red Cross training.  The 600m compass course must be completed by taking azimuths and walking it, not by discussing it in the squadron meeting room. 

And I don't know how it works in your squadron or wing, but in my wing a GTM SQTR with all tasks showing the same training date and same trainer CAPID is a guaranteed red flag for approval questions.  (As IMO it should be, unless it's a consquence of week-long training such as Hawk or NESA where all the tasks are signed off on the final day.)

Also, are you comparing the Eagle Scout to a GTM qualified cadet officer or just any cadet officer you happen to see? If the former, you need to train your GTM qualified people better, if the latter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Neither.  If you reread my post I was decribing a hypothetical situation that shouldn't happen because our current ES regs don't permit it.  Let me clarify. If I were faced with a ground team style emergency (let's be clear and define a "lost hiker" scenario with no official CAP involvement), then I'd choose an Eagle Scout for my "team" before I'd take an average CAP officer (cadet or senior) with no prior ES training.  This is simply common sense.  Then I pointed out that CAP gives no credit whatsoever for prior GTM ES training by other organizations.  And that relates back to the original topic of this thread- should there be special advancement for senior members with infantry experience?  If we're consistent with our current practice in the ES training realm, the answer would have to be NO.

[RiverAux]

There are some Boy Scout Explorer SAR units out there by the way. 

[sandman]

CFI's, Drs, lawyers, etc., do not get a pass without working for it.  That's what's great about "commander's discretion".  Without my recommendation, it doesn't happen.

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

You are not the military...why would you insist on treating your people so bad? (let me talk to them...I'll have them go over your head too if you like )

So now any time your commander says something you don't like you're just supposed to climb over his head and get your way anyway? And this is supposed to be military/professional?

While I may not completely agree with the idea of requiring members to pass additional special requirements to promote (and that is against the regs to do so blatantly, which does seem to be the case here), I do believe in asking for more than a pulse and proof of outside position before signing the CAPF2.

I also however believe that members should voluntarily pass AFIADL 13 before seeking advanced promotions to Captain or above (especially above) and have counseled members on such. They should at least make it a very high priority along with other PD goals. A big part of my reasoning is that folks seeing you wearing those oak leaves are going to assume that you know something about CAP and you really don't want to be embarassed when they find out that you know as much or less than the average cadet airman.

That said, I would have no problem with a regulation change allowing special appointments to only substitute for the TIG requirements while still requiring the member to meet all other requirements such as PD standards and AFIADL 13. While I recognize that such appointments are primarily a recruiting/retention tool, I don't think that being allowed to make advanced grade at your own pace rather than having to wait for theTIG requirements would be such a bad incentive and would actually encourage these folks to study and learn about CAP.

Sorry, couldn't disagree more. If you had been in the military, you might understand how things really work including how to use the "chain" properly to include "backchannel" networking. You are supporting the letter of the law without understanding the spirit of the law.

In my case, as well as other medical professionals I've worked with (in CAP) tend to access training when we can, but that should not prevent members from being promoted IAW current regulations. Adding such onerous requirements such as your AFIADL 13 in the long run will discourage your membership. Why do you insist on treating your professionals that way? Heck, in the real military, promotion to O-3 and to some extent O-4 is pretty much automatic anyway (caveat-medical field).

If your so intent on this ridiculous bent, then run for a spot on the BOG and change the regulations.

[sandman]

Personaly, I'm not in favor of anyone being promoted past 1Lt. unless they are former military and held a higher rank.  Not that it is any great feat to get to Capt. or Major, it just seems like we have way too many folks that get bumped up to Capt. and above but don't know thing one about CAP and how things work down at the squadron level.

That's just my opinion, and it's pretty subjective.

Well, I subjectively share that one with ya. I really think we need to knock down a lot of that stuff. If you need to bribe someone in the door, then you don't need that kind of member. You also don't need to stomp on the people who put in years of hard work moving thru thaose grades. When a doctor comes in the military they make them a Captain. That's for two reasons: first, to place them in command over nurses/med staff; & second, because they've decided the respect/authority associated w/ Capt is what's required to get people to listen to you as a doctor - hell if I know what the formula is. You see though how that's the same kind of system we use for certain staff positions get full Colonel? They had a proposal recently that I think got shot down to make Wg Safety officer a Colonel postion so people would listen to them - same logic. It's not about getting people in the door or that their outside skill makes them this or that. I think we probably all bring something special to CAP in our own way.

So no joy for ground punders. Not unless you want to make self-employed/retired a skill that warrants advanced promotion cause they have time to give. It's already way far out of hand & needs reeling in.

DNALL<

Military Doctors do NOT command Nurses. You have Nurses that are MAJ's and Lt COL's. Dr's are forbidden from command. You have Medical Services Officers that do that. Dr's just doctor.

Whoa son, what country do you serve in?!?

[sandman]

I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

Awesome!  Great attitude.  I'm sure that did wonders for your working relationship and the unit's cohesion.

How high, exactly would you go before you stopped?  Wing, Region?

At least I can understand, what with the extra money and respect and all.

All I can say is, if you did that to me, from that point forward I would do every thing I could for you - all further promotions, ES paperwork and anything else you needed would be prepared early to make sure it was always submitted timely, and any doors you needed opened, or wheels greased would happen no questions. 

You would always be granted the benefit of the doubt in all aspects of CAP and never held to the letter of the reg. 

Touche on the sarcasm Capt Williams.

Look, let's just get rid of rank altogether. Everybody wears CAP cutouts. Positional authority is the order of the day similar to the ICS system.
Get over it, quit playing military, quit quibbling over rank bling. Then you can focus on the missions of CAP.

...BTW, it actually did good things for unit cohesion, you had to be there. Interesting story....

Go as high as necessary...Aim High is the motto, right?

[sandman]

So now any time your commander says something you don't like you're just supposed to climb over his head and get your way anyway? And this is supposed to be military/professional?

Um...yes.

If your supported by the regs and know what you're doing and your commander doesn't or becomes an impediment to progress or endangers a mission....

[floridacyclist]

Sounds like he shouldn't be a commander then.

[lordmonar]

Well that may be the root problem in a lot of things that are bad with CAP.

Bad leaders are at every level, but you can't just fire them unless you have a replacement ready.

This is a recurring theme in a lot of our threads.  Inconsistency in promotions, inconsistency in advanced promotions, local squadron, wing and regional uniform policies.

It makes no sense in harping about maintain the regs if national is not going to take the lead.

It also makes no sense to berate members who use their chain of command to get the right thing done.

[floridacyclist]

If your supported by the regs and know what you're doing and your commander doesn't or becomes an impediment to progress or endangers a mission....

Was the only part that I was referring to about him not being a good commander. Having not been there personally or known the CC's reason for denying the promotion, I can't comment on how well he did or didn't handle the situation or how that reflects on his leadership ability.

Having just dealt for months with a member trying to jump through, under, or over any hoops necessary to get a special promotion to Lt Col (after having been brought in initially as a Capt), I guess I'm just a little burnt out on special promotions. Not saying that he's not a good guy and an asset to CAP and all, just not so sure what the big deal is. I mean, is there a pay raise that someone forgot to tell me about? Maybe 2 or 300%?

If someone is that Sierra Hotel to start with, they shouldn't have any trouble breezing through the requirements to earn the grade (and then maybe putting in for a special promotion...MAYBE). If they're not up to that task, maybe they shouldn't get it in the first place.

[lordmonar]

If he meets the requirments for advanced promotion....why hold it back?

If you have a specific reason for not promoting...then good on you....write up an MFR and give it to him when you deny his CAPF2 or use the remarks section in block IX.

[Al Sayre]

Gotta point out 2 things here:

Sandman is a AD USN LT (0-3) = Capt. and is entitled to hold that rank in CAP as much as any of the hundred's of Lt.Col.'s and other sundry former service types.

Squadron Commanders do not have promotion authority for Capt., that goes to Group or Wing if you don't have Groups.  The SQ/CC can mark it disapproved and make his/her comments, but the LT has every right to forward it up the COC to the person with the promotion authority.

[DNall]

Capt Williams, it would seem that as you are exercising your right as a commander as far as promotions, it would also seem if it is a squadron policy, it would be in contravention to the promotion regulation, setting additional requirements as these individuals are not required by the regulation to make.

From CAPR 35-5

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

There is no requirement for lawyers, doctors, chaplains, educators, and accountants to take AFIADL-13 at anytime during their time in Civil Air Patrol for promotion. I am not saying they shouldn't take it. I think they should but it isn't a requirement unless these individuals choose to pursue the Officer Training Awards

Careful sir. The reg also provides for promotion board to advise the commander on the fitness of this individual (cadet or senior) to assume the next grade. The very nature of that states a high degree of latitude for commanders in determining what makes an individual suitable to assume an advanced grade. I personally think the standand he's a pplyin gis very fair & reasonable. I've also found that just about every single officer that's advanced promoted thru that system & continued forward from there either in grade or significant staff positions has been absolutely terrible. I hate to put that out there like a stereotype, but there's a lot more negative to those promotions than there is positive. This one Sq CC has found a way to mitigate members with an advanced qual & the wrong attitude. That's a good thing & you as an IG should be serving the best interests of CAP by helping him justify those actions under regs rather than pushing well beyond the letter or spirit of the reg in attempting to provide him guidance. Sorry that's harsh, no disrespect, just my couple more cents for the pile.

[DNall]

That said, I would have no problem with a regulation change allowing special appointments to only substitute for the TIG requirements while still requiring the member to meet all other requirements such as PD standards and AFIADL 13. While I recognize that such appointments are primarily a recruiting/retention tool, I don't think that being allowed to make advanced grade at your own pace rather than having to wait for theTIG requirements would be such a bad incentive and would actually encourage these folks to study and learn about CAP.

That sounds better, but I'm still in favor of cutting WAY back on special appointment promotins, and they should NEVER be used for recruiting/retention. The kind of member you get out of that is very bad for CAP, despite whatever skill they supposedly bring. I've seen that time & time again. I grant that the above req for AFIADL13 or similar is a bit unorthadox, but it's good material that really is critical at the entery level. We try to get members enrolled in it immedeately after Lvl 1. I don't think it's so bad to make them earn their initial grade. It's a stretch of teh reg also, but in attempt to mitigate a hoirrible promotion system that harms CAP. 

[dmac]

Capt Williams, it would seem that as you are exercising your right as a commander as far as promotions, it would also seem if it is a squadron policy, it would be in contravention to the promotion regulation, setting additional requirements as these individuals are not required by the regulation to make.

From CAPR 35-5

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

There is no requirement for lawyers, doctors, chaplains, educators, and accountants to take AFIADL-13 at anytime during their time in Civil Air Patrol for promotion. I am not saying they shouldn't take it. I think they should but it isn't a requirement unless these individuals choose to pursue the Officer Training Awards

Careful sir. The reg also provides for promotion board to advise the commander on the fitness of this individual (cadet or senior) to assume the next grade. The very nature of that states a high degree of latitude for commanders in determining what makes an individual suitable to assume an advanced grade. I personally think the standand he's a pplyin gis very fair & reasonable. I've also found that just about every single officer that's advanced promoted thru that system & continued forward from there either in grade or significant staff positions has been absolutely terrible. I hate to put that out there like a stereotype, but there's a lot more negative to those promotions than there is positive. This one Sq CC has found a way to mitigate members with an advanced qual & the wrong attitude. That's a good thing & you as an IG should be serving the best interests of CAP by helping him justify those actions under regs rather than pushing well beyond the letter or spirit of the reg in attempting to provide him guidance. Sorry that's harsh, no disrespect, just my couple more cents for the pile.

DNall, you obviously didn't get my meaning about my response to Capt Williams' requirement for AFIADL 13. I stated in that post that I thought it was admirable what he was trying to do and I agree that someone shouldn't be able to just pay and get promoted. I also said that he as a commander has plenty of tools to prevent a person who isn't up to snuff without contradicting the regulation(like the infamous NYWG promotion policy). Him setting those requirements could be considered a legitimate complaint. He can disapprove recommendations or not recommend a person for promotion. He has those tools available to him as a commander without setting himself up. Is the promotion system broken? It very well maybe, but there are tools to prevent someone getting promoted that doesn't deserve it, and they need to be utilized. Commanders at all levels need to make this happen. I stated in a later post that I know a USAF officer who was submitted for promotion in CAP based on his promotion in the USAF was denied by a region promotion board due to his lack of knowledge about CAP and that was perfectly legitimate. Had the board said that he needed to finish level V, that would have been contrary to the regulation. He was briefed on what he needed to do to rectify the situation, did it, and was resubmitted, met the board and was promoted.

[BlueLakes1]

Since so much chat has involved requiring AFIADL 013 prior to promotion, I'll ask this. Has anyone actually been getting their tests from AFIADL recently? Since earlier this year, I know of people in both wings I actively participate in who have not gotten their tests after making the proper request. Also, I heard similar stories from folks when I was at RSC this summer, and I didn't go to RSC in my home region, so I'd have to think this is a fairly widespread issue.

[arajca]

I haven't had any problems getting my tests.

[ZigZag911]

The Powers That Were wanted them to sit through classes they had probably taught for the Army.

Well, that was just dumb.  As was pointed out there is no requirement that anyone take a particular class before being tested in any of the ES specialties if they think they can test out of them. 

There are no required courses NOW.

As recently as 6  or 7 years ago, some wings required classes to qualify as GTM or aircrew.

Even now, some wings offer such classes as one route to learning the material required.

The point to the post was to underscore a mindset that has not really gone away entirely.

[ZigZag911]

I have no idea why he was denied, and don't care, if Group CC's are going to go around over-riding Unit CC's decisoin on silliness like advanced grade promotions, they might as well just replace the unit CC, rather than killing his local command authority by over-riding him.

Squadron commanders answer to group commanders, just as group and squadron commanders both answer to wing commanders.

It is, in fact, the group commander's duty to review recommendations for promotion (bear in mind that squadron commanders do not 'promote' directly past 1 Lt) to ensure that CAP regs (spirit as well as letter) are upheld.

If more group commanders did this, you'd have less questionable special appointment promotions.

In fact, in this regard the group CC provides a service to the squadron CC, who may find it difficult convincing a doctor, lawyer, CFI or teacher that he/she can't be promoted because they are not contributing their special skills to CAP.
Let Group CC be the 'bad cop'!

Squadron commanders, in my experience, would prefer that groups provide funding, equipment, and administrative support (that is, process paperwork), and otherwise leave their units alone.

This worked quite well in the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic era....
however, most squadron commanders, dedicated and competent as they are, just don't quite measure up to Jack Aubrey or Horatio Hornblower!!!

[sandman]

Gotta point out 2 things here:

Sandman is a AD USN LT (0-3) = Capt. and is entitled to hold that rank in CAP as much as any of the hundred's of Lt.Col.'s and other sundry former service types.

Squadron Commanders do not have promotion authority for Capt., that goes to Group or Wing if you don't have Groups.  The SQ/CC can mark it disapproved and make his/her comments, but the LT has every right to forward it up the COC to the person with the promotion authority.

True, but that "fight" took place when I was an Army NCO

[DNall]

DNall, you obviously didn't get my meaning about my response to Capt Williams' requirement for AFIADL 13. I stated in that post that I thought it was admirable what he was trying to do and I agree that someone shouldn't be able to just pay and get promoted. I also said that he as a commander has plenty of tools to prevent a person who isn't up to snuff without contradicting the regulation(like the infamous NYWG promotion policy). Him setting those requirements could be considered a legitimate complaint. He can disapprove recommendations or not recommend a person for promotion. He has those tools available to him as a commander without setting himself up. Is the promotion system broken? It very well maybe, but there are tools to prevent someone getting promoted that doesn't deserve it, and they need to be utilized. Commanders at all levels need to make this happen. I stated in a later post that I know a USAF officer who was submitted for promotion in CAP based on his promotion in the USAF was denied by a region promotion board due to his lack of knowledge about CAP and that was perfectly legitimate. Had the board said that he needed to finish level V, that would have been contrary to the regulation. He was briefed on what he needed to do to rectify the situation, did it, and was resubmitted, met the board and was promoted.

I get what you mean, and that i'ts impropper to create arbitrary requirements eforced as a universal standard. I also understand why the reg says what it does on that issue. I think we're all in agreement that special appointments are heavily abused & some corrective action is necessary that would include modifying the reg.

That said, I too think what he's doing is acommendable. If I were looking at a candidate that's willing to contribute in their field - I don't actually need a medical officer, CFI, hamm operator, A&P, teacher, attorney, or accountant. There may be a broad need in CAP for free use of some of those specialized skills, but not right now in my unit. Do I promote them anyway even though their skill might get used for a few minutes a quarter & nothing any other memebr couldn't do? Do I look at that person & say great you got a these quals but you got no idea about CAP or the military & cannot function at the 1Lt/Capt level w/o some back-training... therefore I've evaluated your personal record & think you need to take oh AFIADL13 or have some prior military experience to get you over the line. As long as that's a case-by-case evaluation & you're not ordering them to take the course but telling them they're deficient & recommending a couple options that would correct it... that sounds on the level to me.

I'm sorry I was rough in saying it. The way I was looking at it, he's gong to get piled on by a lot of members who think these things are supposed to be automatic & it doesn't matter if you ever lift a finger in the specialty area (pencil whipped). I tend to think IGs & other up echelon personnel should look at what's best for CAP & present the interpretation that supports that, rather than an academic argument that may limit good things or encourage disention. I appreciate what you're saying about working inside the reg & avoiding trouble though. I just don't know if you blast that houskeeping detail to the world the way you might on the supportive side of the coin.

[Dragoon]

Let me add a vote to the "no more special appointments" crowd.

Honestly, everyone thinks the key to fixing CAP is give almost everyone railroad tracks as they come in the door.

This kind of inflation just helps make grade more meaningless than it is already.

I would absolutely agree that infantry skills can be of great value on ground teams (and truthfully, my cav scout training helped a whole lot with aerial navigation as well).

But, any skilled person who doesn't welcome a chance to demonstrate their skills to an appropriate evaluator is, IMHO, an ego problem waiting to happen.

If I had a special forces/ranger/pathfinder guy walk through the door, I'd tell him that, if he was interested, I'd sit him down with the GT handbook and review it, and then set him up with an evaluator at the next SAR to get as many checkoffs as his skills warranted.

[ZigZag911]

If I had a special forces/ranger/pathfinder guy walk through the door, I'd tell him that, if he was interested, I'd sit him down with the GT handbook and review it, and then set him up with an evaluator at the next SAR to get as many checkoffs as his skills warranted.

A sound, reasonable approach.

[RiverAux]

Yes, that is how we're supposed to do things but it doesn't directly relate to the question at hand.  Should we give that Ranger a higher initial grade in recognition of his skills?

How about for my proposed infantry skill advanced grade and for all the other mission-related special appointments (that they do not get the promotion until they become qualified in the skill they have?

For example, for my Ranger he comes in as a Senior Member but after passing Level 1 and CPPT and upon becoming a qualified Ground Team Member he gets promoted to X rank.  Or, pilots joining CAP go through Level 1 and CPPT and get promoted to x rank after becoming a qualified Mission Pilot/Cadet O-ride pilot, etc? 

This would link the supposed skill they are bringing to CAP with the actual achievement of the ability to perform that skill in CAP.

Not sure how to extend it to the professional appointments (AEM,DR, lawyer). 

[arajca]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate. Grade is temporary for a period of two or three years during which time if they leave the position, they revert to the grade appropriate for their PD level.

If you're going to open the Ranger/Infantry can of worms, what about local SAR team personnel who have NASAR ratings?

[afgeo4]

Does a soldier being a Ranger/Pathfinder/SF give him automatic promotions in the Army?  Nope.  And his skills are a lot more directly benefitting that service.

What about someone who is as well or better qualified to be ground team member because they are a member of a SAR team or Park Ranger or Survival Specialist?  Should we just make them Majors and give them a squadron off the bat?

I think people who have skills get the appropriate recognition.  For those who have the skills set for a ground team member, a GT badge is authorized as recognition.  For those who are good enough to be a team leader, a senior GT badge is authorized, etc.  Skill sets aren't promotable unless you're a pilot, lawyer, doctor, nurse, chaplain. That's how it is in the military, that's how it is in CAP. Anyone with prior service will understand that.  Is it fair?  Not everything in life is, but my personal feelings on this are that it's fair.

[Rangersigo]

Does a soldier being a Ranger/Pathfinder/SF give him automatic promotions in the Army?  Nope.  And his skills are a lot more directly benefitting that service.

What about someone who is as well or better qualified to be ground team member because they are a member of a SAR team or Park Ranger or Survival Specialist?  Should we just make them Majors and give them a squadron off the bat?

I think we are mixing to can of worms here.  You are correct that these schools do not initiate promotions.  The schools you cited above are not for every soldier and your statement is not entirely correct.  A Specialist in the Army can attend SFAS and the the "Q", and will be automatically promoted to E-5 upon successful completion.  To attend the Ranger course in the Army, you either have to be "leader" of some capacity, normally E-5 or above and if you are in a Ranger Battalion, slotted for a leadership position where you are promoted to Corporal or SGT upon completion.  Pathfinder School is considered an advanced skill course and when I went there was no one below E-5 in the course.

Normally those skills are going to be accompanied by a degree of rank and leadership experience.  Someone off the street who SAYS the were a Ranger, SF, Pathfinder, as said earlier should be able to run circles around an average ground team member and should be given an opportunity to demonstrate this and be certified in some way by CAP.

On the other hand, the average SGT/SSG Ranger, SF, is going to walk in the door with more leadership, planning, discipline, than a person joining CAP cold without these experience will ever be able to achieve in serving 30 years in CAP.  I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

[TankerT]

I think we are mixing to can of worms here.  You are correct that these schools do not initiate promotions.  The schools you cited above are not for every soldier and your statement is not entirely correct.  A Specialist in the Army can attend SFAS and the the "Q", and will be automatically promoted to E-5 upon successful completion.  To attend the Ranger course in the Army, you either have to be "leader" of some capacity, normally E-5 or above and if you are in a Ranger Battalion, slotted for a leadership position where you are promoted to Corporal or SGT upon completion.  Pathfinder School is considered an advanced skill course and when I went there was no one below E-5 in the course.

Normally those skills are going to be accompanied by a degree of rank and leadership experience.  Someone off the street who SAYS the were a Ranger, SF, Pathfinder, as said earlier should be able to run circles around an average ground team member and should be given an opportunity to demonstrate this and be certified in some way by CAP.

On the other hand, the average SGT/SSG Ranger, SF, is going to walk in the door with more leadership, planning, discipline, than a person joining CAP cold without these experience will ever be able to achieve in serving 30 years in CAP.  I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

Well... I agree with this to a point.  However, having all the military experience in the world will do you no good if you expect CAP members to react in the same way.  Managing CAP members has more to do with managing personalities and soft skills than it does with actual real authority.  It is often an entirely different context of leadership. 

And, while not a Ranger School Graduate myself, my experience has not been that you need to be in any position of authority to attend that course.  (I've known and worked with plenty of E-3 Ranger School Graduates.  None whom were slotted to a Ranger unit.  I also had four E-3 Ranger School graduates in my chalk at Jump School.  My understanding is that this is still occurring.) 

While Ranger skills are superior to many Ground Team related tasks, they don't cover the whole spectrum. 

I think we waive too many items for " special promotions" and thus we have too many Majors that run around that don't have a clue about CAP.  (Doctors, Accountants, etc.)  I understand we need people with these skills... but... it also can hurt us at the same time.

I think most individuals thar are an E-5+ ex-Ranger will navigate CAP promotions at a minimum time rate, and excel at our program, while developing the needed knowledge for CAP to function well within our program.  (So they know the difference between us and the military.)

[Rangersigo]

And, while not a Ranger School Graduate myself, my experience has not been that you need to be in any position of authority to attend that course.  (I've known and worked with plenty of E-3 Ranger School Graduates.  None whom were slotted to a Ranger unit.  I also had four E-3 Ranger School graduates in my chalk at Jump School.  My understanding is that this is still occurring.) 

I concur and also agree that the leadership skills are different and most Rangers would not find the CAP environment the right one for them.  Most joined the military and Rangers for the Ranger expereince....

On another note, they have not allowed "Leg" Rangers for a very long time as well as soldiers below the rank of E-4.  My guess is that these Rangers were either prior service that could not get in at their previous rank or they were PX Rangers.

[Al Sayre]

The understatement of the year:

...having all the military experience in the world will do you no good if you expect CAP members to react in the same way.  Managing CAP members has more to do with managing personalities and soft skills than it does with actual real authority.  It is often an entirely different context of leadership. 

Think herding cats...

[flyguy06]

Does a soldier being a Ranger/Pathfinder/SF give him automatic promotions in the Army?  Nope.  And his skills are a lot more directly benefitting that service.

What about someone who is as well or better qualified to be ground team member because they are a member of a SAR team or Park Ranger or Survival Specialist?  Should we just make them Majors and give them a squadron off the bat?

I think we are mixing to can of worms here.  You are correct that these schools do not initiate promotions.  The schools you cited above are not for every soldier and your statement is not entirely correct.  A Specialist in the Army can attend SFAS and the the "Q", and will be automatically promoted to E-5 upon successful completion.  To attend the Ranger course in the Army, you either have to be "leader" of some capacity, normally E-5 or above and if you are in a Ranger Battalion, slotted for a leadership position where you are promoted to Corporal or SGT upon completion.  Pathfinder School is considered an advanced skill course and when I went there was no one below E-5 in the course.

Normally those skills are going to be accompanied by a degree of rank and leadership experience.  Someone off the street who SAYS the were a Ranger, SF, Pathfinder, as said earlier should be able to run circles around an average ground team member and should be given an opportunity to demonstrate this and be certified in some way by CAP.

On the other hand, the average SGT/SSG Ranger, SF, is going to walk in the door with more leadership, planning, discipline, than a person joining CAP cold without these experience will ever be able to achieve in serving 30 years in CAP.  I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

I will agre to this to a pont, howvere at Ranger school, you didnt learn to use an ELT. You didnt cover parallel track dearches or line searches. You id did cover air/grounds ops but you covered it in a different kind of way than how CAP uses it.

[RiverAux]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate.

I have never quite understood the need to have doctor or lawyer positions in squadron or group org charts.  In about 10 years of CAP service I have never actually seen a Medical or Legal Officer at those levels actually have anything useful to do. 

Now, if CAP and the AF work it out so that CAP doctors, lawyers, etc. can augment AF units then I can see some value. 

Now, I would love to have one of them doctors on a ground team, but never actually seen it happen. 

[fyrfitrmedic]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate.

I have never quite understood the need to have doctor or lawyer positions in squadron or group org charts.  In about 10 years of CAP service I have never actually seen a Medical or Legal Officer at those levels actually have anything useful to do. 

Now, if CAP and the AF work it out so that CAP doctors, lawyers, etc. can augment AF units then I can see some value. 

Now, I would love to have one of them doctors on a ground team, but never actually seen it happen. 

Playing devil's advocate for a moment:

Let's take a hypothetical non-emergency medicine/trauma doc who hasn't had ATLS or wilderness-medicine training or the like. What's he/she gonna do in the field that makes them more of an asset than a person of lesser medical training?

I've known doctors and nurses [and more than a few medics and EMTs] who are like fish out of water outside their accustomed element. Training is the key, and much of that for medical folks is really outside CAP's current purview.

[RiverAux]

I was just saying that they could potentially be of use on a ground team but I've never seen a squadron medical officer do anything.....  Even without a ton of equipment I'd rather have just about any doc at the scene than a cadet with basic first aid.  If nothing else the Dr. could accurately assess the patient and provide detailed info to follow on personnel.

[Major_Chuck]

Regarding Legal and Medical Officers.  I've seen them in some units and they are proactive in the unit, however you have to remember that some medical and legal officers are going to have a reluctance to serve in that role for liability and insurance reasons.

"Doc Smith in XYZ Squadron told me to treat the infection with Borax, now its infected.  I'm going to sue him.  I'll get Colonel Billy Bob in ABC squadron to represent me because we fly together."

You'll find most legal officers working on the wing level and to some extent group levels.  Medical, CAP is still trying to muddle through that one.

-chuck

[TankerT]

On another note, they have not allowed "Leg" Rangers for a very long time as well as soldiers below the rank of E-4.  My guess is that these Rangers were either prior service that could not get in at their previous rank or they were PX Rangers.

At the time, E-4 was "supposed" to be the minimum grade to attend Ranger school.  But, that was often waived due to a lack of qualified applicants making it through RIP.

"A long time" is somewhat subjective.  I can guarentee you that these folks were NOT PX Rangers.  Nor were they prior service.  But, the latest I personally ran into an E-3 Ranger was 1998.  I went through Jump School with several leg E-3 Rangers in 1995.  (They had just finished Ranger School, and were letting everyone know it...)

[DNall]

I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

There's actually quite a few such people in CAP. I know several personally. Their skills certainly have proven invaluable. And the qual system is alsready set up to just demonstrate tasks, so no problem there.

I love having such people in CAP, but I don't think we should be bribing them w/ 30-star general to get them to come around. And no way in hell should you do that for a CFII or ATP either.

Are people threatened by newer members with those kinds of skills, I don't know that's kind of broad range there all of humanity. Personally I'm all for it.

The understatement of the year:

...having all the military experience in the world will do you no good if you expect CAP members to react in the same way.  Managing CAP members has more to do with managing personalities and soft skills than it does with actual real authority.  It is often an entirely different context of leadership. 

Think herding cats...

You think leadership in the military is really about legal authority? I mean you might get some rocks painted that way, but if you really want a good performance from someone then it very much is managing personalities to have that person enthusiastic & committed to the missions you hand them. Leadership is leadership, no amount or lack of legal back up can change that.

[Al Sayre]

Actually, I wasn't referring to legal authority, but to expected reactions.  Most military members are already pretty motivated and committed to the mission, and understand that sometimes nasty things have to be done, and they are paid to do them. 

It seems that with volunteers, everyone wants to do the fun and important stuff, but when the crappy little jobs come around only the committed few show up.  We really have no stick and very few carrots, so you have to be pretty creative to get them to particapate in the whole mission and not just the parts they like.

[TankerT]

You think leadership in the military is really about legal authority? I mean you might get some rocks painted that way, but if you really want a good performance from someone then it very much is managing personalities to have that person enthusiastic & committed to the missions you hand them. Leadership is leadership, no amount or lack of legal back up can change that.

I never said anything about legal authority, although that does come into play.  But, normally, only in the case of bad apples.

I didn't say military leadership has no component of managing personalities and people.  It is a part of it.  But, leadership in the military has several other major factors that come into play that we in CAP don't have. 

Leadership is leadership.  But, as a leader, you need to use the methods and tools you have to fit those you are leading, and your mission.  The common core of experience in the military is much more similiar/structured than in CAP.  Also, the mission is different.  The tools you have in the military at your disposal are often way more vast and comprehensive than in CAP.

I think Al Sayre put it pretty well.  And, I think that shows that why leadership in CAP is pretty much about your ability to use personality and influence. 

[Dragoon]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate.

I have never quite understood the need to have doctor or lawyer positions in squadron or group org charts.  In about 10 years of CAP service I have never actually seen a Medical or Legal Officer at those levels actually have anything useful to do. 

Now, if CAP and the AF work it out so that CAP doctors, lawyers, etc. can augment AF units then I can see some value. 

Now, I would love to have one of them doctors on a ground team, but never actually seen it happen. 

I'm with you - a squadron medical or health services officer is of limited or no value as a staffer.  The commander simply doesn't have a need for that kind of staff assistance or advice at that level.

On the other hand, having medics on your ground team, or first aid instructors in your unit is a great thing.  But since HSOs aren't required to work on GT, nor teach first aid.....it's one of the many "optional" slots that National thinks we all desperately have to have.  Kind of like Squadron Historian and Squadron Legal officer.  Nice, but not necessary. 

The fact that most squadrons don't have these guys and are still allowed to function speaks voumes as to the utility of these positions.  Now at Wing level, that's another story.

[DNall]

Actually, I wasn't referring to legal authority, but to expected reactions.  Most military members are already pretty motivated and committed to the mission, and understand that sometimes nasty things have to be done, and they are paid to do them. 

It seems that with volunteers, everyone wants to do the fun and important stuff, but when the crappy little jobs come around only the committed few show up.  We really have no stick and very few carrots, so you have to be pretty creative to get them to particapate in the whole mission and not just the parts they like.

No I agree, but obviously people iun the military didn't get motivated to that point w/o a long hard process to crstruct an environment around them & teach/reinforce the concepts over & over... They are that way cause they're made to be that way. They want to do important work more than pump gas, but every now & then someone walks by & says "thanks, you know we couldn't do our job w/o you & good guys die when we're late to work." It's no dif in CAP. You just have to think about inter-personal psychology in teh back of your head all the time.

I'll give you an example. I needed to fill O-flt slots a couple weeks ago & we were on the phone calling cadets. Don't tell them "hey we got O-flights today if you're interested." Say, "you've been doing a good job lately & so we've decided to let you go flying today if you can make it." -OR- "We hadn't seen you in a while, we wanted to see if you'd like to come flying today & talk about getting you out to meetings more consistently." It's not that big a deal, but link the two things in their brain & you get something for nothing.

I think you're selling military leaders short when you say people just follow them cause that's the way things work. I think they actually have to do the same things as us to get peak performance from their people, cause it's basic human nature we're dealing with. I just think they're better at it than we are.

Carrot & stick... yeah I can do that for ya. Couselling to 2B (charges), to civil liability or criminal liability for failing to do your job according to regs/training on a mission - you can't walk up on someone that needs help & un-volunteer, you have a fiduciary duty, just like you do when you join CAP. Other end of the spectrum... like I said, take stuff that's already going on & tell people it's a reward. You know a guy wants to train for aircrew, there's a training session coming up in a couple months, you call him up in a meeting & shake hands tell him he's been selected from a lot of other people in the Wing to attend navigator/oberserver training & you're looking forward to getting him back & putting him in the plane to keep your pilots on their toes, you know he'll do you proud... Come on, it's not that hard, make things seem a little more exclusive than maybe they are. I think Iowa is taking the right path with new members to interview people & make them apply & be selected for training... SDFs do that to & some of them let some pretty retarded people in. CGAux has a stiffer proceedure. It doesn't even have to be changed stadards (tho I wish it was) to make people think they have to earn things & do their duty. Show them how the dots connect from our grunt work to the important stuff - you know the money saved by CAP over the years more than covers the full cost of the F22 program? I know you're a smart guy, you can show people how much their work matters.

[Al Sayre]

Sometimes I tend to oversimplify in my posts due to time, but yes you are 100% correct.  It takes a lot of creativity sometimes and other times its simple. 

One of the first things I did as Commander was go back through the records and give out awards to the people who had earned them and never received them.  A lot of them came back and said thanks and that they are glad that they finally have a commander who gives a crap about what they do...  That kind of stuff is the easy part, but the 2b is still the biggest stick we have in the regular day to day of the Squadron, and in reality it's only a twig.

[DNall]

Okay, let me not undercut the positive side, cause that's where 99.5 % of your magic is made, but let me talk about the stick for a moment.

I have some experience on a national non-profit board of trustees. This is the national organization for a college fraternity, so let me clarify that I mean we had a lot of money invested but we were self insured (meaning a coverage mgmt company, but claims were paid w/ our money not theirs) - by which I mean I have some serious risk/crisis mgmt experience dealing with lawsuits...

Okay anyway, if you wear jeans w/ a CAP polo & crash a plane then they aren't covering you. If you go thru advanced first aid & GTM1, then get to a scene & do NOT perform to the extent of your training, then family can sue the crap out of you & CAP WILL leave you hanging. The fact is the CAP legal exists to protect CAP & if that means leaving you out to dry then they won't even flinch for a second. That's 100% absolute indisputable facts. Now, CAP is a little less cold hearted than our org was, but don't think that'll last no that they stand alone after 2000.

My point being you are individually responsible for your actions & you have a duty to perform to the extent of your training & ability in all cases all the time. Now, can you give that example, then stretch to the statement that "you have agreed to a greater responsibility than regular citizens have, not living up to that agreement can in certain situations send you to prison or have you sued for millions. We protect you, but only when you do your job & follow the rules. Go do your own thing & don't blame me when you get the express train to hell."

You can spell that out w/ civil & even criminal ramifications on a mission, and THEN go on to explain to a person that they "volunteered" to take n this duty as a CAP member, they are free to quit CAP but they are not free to do less than the full extent of their duty. They are required by rules & regs (w/ legal ramifications) to do their job or meet the evil side of me.

Now is this absolute truth? Well, it's a strong interpretation sure, but don't you feel better with member going in like that & you backing it up w/ the real world practical version of the rules? To me, it's all about setting the stage for what you want to happen, not telling people the limits of your authority & being amazed when they test you beyond your ability to respond - for God sake, bluff a little if need be.

I'll leave you with this final quote. My favorite of all time... "Duty then is the sublimest word in the English language; you can never do more, you should never wish to do less." Robert E Lee, senior paper at US Military Academy at West Point.

My second favorite comes from a C/LtCol who I can't even remember his name & I bet he stole it from someone I don't know, but it's profound in a way that needs attention... "Leadership isn't taught, it's caught."

[Al Sayre]

You'll get no argument from me that once someone enters the field on a mission or gets in a CAP aircraft, there are some pretty powerful motivators to follow the rules. 

Where we have a problem is in the day to day running of the squadrons.  Trying to get someone to take on a staff position like Admin, Personnel, Leadership Officer etc.  It seems like no one wants the jobs to start with, then they do them halfway.  When you try to correct an issue you get: "Screw you, if you don't like the way I do it, do it yourself!  I quit."  As I said before in this situation, we effectively have no stick and only a few carrots. 

You can't force them to take a staff position at all, quite a few could care less about professional development.  I've actually been told by one member "Why should I bother with that crap?  What can I do as a Capt. or Major. that I can't do as a 1st Lt?"  I'd guess that close to 60% of the SM's on the books either don't participate at all, or only show up when they feel like it. 

I realize the real solution is targeted recruiting and training of motivated people who really want to be a part of the organization, but those are pretty few and far between (at least in my area).

This is one of the main reasons I really like the Iowa Wing concept, and especially the Reserve Squadron idea.  It gets the dead wood out of the squadrons so the Commanders can stop wasting resources on people who aren't "active".  It reduces the pool of staff candidates to those who really want the job and are willing to commit the time and effort to do it right.   [/rant]

[floridacyclist]

Then you get the other side of the story where someone joins CAP to do ES stuff and gets put into Personnel since he's good with computers (and as a new SM is too dumb to argue). So now he's with Personnel for years on end because nobody else wants to do it, he's good at it, and becomes irreplaceable. He earns his grade the old-fashioned way by working hard and taking tests, yet is supposed to fight for folks to get promoted past him because they went to some school that nobody is even sure is accredited.

In the meantime, he participates in all the training he possibly can and often is the only GTL to show up for missions and exercises or when folks need someone to evaluate and teach. When he asks for reassignment to ES since he's the most qualified and active person in the group and that is what he really wants to do in CAP anyway, he's told that's impossible because he's too good at keeping Personnel and Public Affairs afloat for the rest of the squadron and group.  He reluctantly agrees and continues to do his best because he actually does agree with the importance of Personnel in the overall scheme of things. He knows he can't drop out because he actually does believe in the programs, plus he has kids in and he wants to make it work for them and their friends.

When folks have trouble with ES stuff they come to him for help since there is no effective ES officer, but when he tries to initiate any ES training on his own, he's told that he's stepping on toes and to back off. Ditto for comm even though neither the comm or ES officer ever hesitates to ask him for advice or to fill in when playing CAP is not convenient for them.

No matter how many lifesaving or valor awards he's eligible for and should have probably received, he never gets any because "everyone knows that it's the Personnel Officer's job to initiate paperwork for awards and decorations" and he feels that it's improper to put in awards for himself and even a little wierd doing it for his kids. For similar reasons, he never sees his name in print except as the author of the press releases that he regularly sends to Wing but he's proud to know that the unnamed "Civil Air Patrol Officer" in the story is him and the "Civil Air Patrol Cadets" are his. He smiles, reminds himself that he's not in it for the kudos and carries on.

Eventually he gets tired and burnt out, and while he may keep plugging away in Personnel for as long as his kids are in, once they are gone, so is he.

[Al Sayre]

I understand that you have to strike a balance, and personally, I have no problem with people moving around because they are getting burned out on a job, or want to try something new.  In the case you are talking about, I'd say make that person both asst. Personnel and assistant ES for starters, let them train the new Personnel O, as they ease into the ES O slot. 

As to the awards, I'd say that it's the commanders responsibility to see that his people get the awards they deserve, even if he has to submit them himself.  The Personnel O does the paperwork, but the CC determines who gets what, and I have no problem with a Personnel O puting him/herself in for an award they deserve.  That is a big sore spot with me.  When people are eligible and deserving then they should get the award.  I've spent a bunch of time at my squadron filling out awards paperwork to get stuff for people they should have had 5 years ago.

[floridacyclist]

I agree with awards that are earned based on set criteria or duty performance...decorations (as in valor, commendations etc) are another issue as they tend to be somewhat subjective and involve things outside the normal performance of duty; few folks like to blow their own horn that much.

[davedove]

I agree with awards that are earned based on set criteria or duty performance...decorations (as in valor, commendations etc) are another issue as they tend to be somewhat subjective and involve things outside the normal performance of duty; few folks like to blow their own horn that much.

I agree.  I have no problem putting myself in for activity awards and such, but I wouldn't feel right putting myself in for a decoration.

[floridacyclist]

Good to see you Dave. I believe we met at your Sq Christmas party

[sandman]

I agree with awards that are earned based on set criteria or duty performance...decorations (as in valor, commendations etc) are another issue as they tend to be somewhat subjective and involve things outside the normal performance of duty; few folks like to blow their own horn that much.

I agree.  I have no problem putting myself in for activity awards and such, but I wouldn't feel right putting myself in for a decoration.

Why not? In the real military, we often times have to write up our own decorations, "toot your own horn" so to speak. The decoration can always be downgraded (most often the case) or denied. But, nobody will think to recommend a decoration (save for very outstanding citations) unless you request it (some mundane decorations such as MOVSM, NAM, AAM, etc.).

[Al Sayre]

The CC should be aware of his peoples actions and be putting in those commendations whenever the are deserved.  Sometimes you may have to prod them along, and others just won't take a hint. 

There's nothing wrong or shameful about putting yourself in for a decoration you've actually earned.  If you don't toot your own horn, nobody else is going to do it for you.  Dont be afraid to stand up and say "I did this and I'm  [darn]ed proud of it!"

That's part of the reason CAP is one of the "best kept secrets" in the country, we aren't very good at tooting our own horn.

[DNall]

You'll get no argument from me that once someone enters the field on a mission or gets in a CAP aircraft, there are some pretty powerful motivators to follow the rules. 

Where we have a problem is in the day to day running of the squadrons.  Trying to get someone to take on a staff position like Admin, Personnel, Leadership Officer etc.  It seems like no one wants the jobs to start with, then they do them halfway.  When you try to correct an issue you get: "Screw you, if you don't like the way I do it, do it yourself!  I quit."  As I said before in this situation, we effectively have no stick and only a few carrots. 

I understand what you're saying. This is where I'd take you back to one of my original examples. Remember I was telling you about calling kids to fill O-flt slots... you've done a good job so this is your reward, or we haven't seen you so come on out fo this & we're gonna have a little talk. Take unconnected good things & bad things, then connect them in their brains - make everything good a reward, & be cognizant of who you hand it to so you promote the behavior you want. In other words lie - well kinda, just connect things in their brain that are unrelated.

The other thing is... explain the hard core of the hard core on how it can be in the field - you have to follow orders/rules/regs or bad bad things... then w/o missing a beat go into how they have to follow porders/rules/regs in their day-to-day or there are big honkin ramifications... then w/o missing a beat again, you have to compose yourself on your own time out in the world & know that you are a rep of CAP regardless of where you are or what you're wearing. If you go get smashed at the bar & demonstrate conduct unbecoming (like a DUI on the way home) you'll be out on your butt faster than you can ask why. Is some of that a bluff, or meant to misguide members into thinking the sitck side consequences are strong? Well maybe just a little, and that don't bother me a bit. Long as you try to back it up w/ strong enforcement of the things you do have the authority to do, then people will never test your limits far enough to figure out they don't go to jail for not doing what they're told.

That's fine if you were starting from scratch, and hell with retention it seems like you get that cnce more often than not, but how to build the illusion with existing members.... hmm that's a harder one. I haven't tried to do that exactly. I mean I have, but it's always been the jump in the job & new sherriff in town kinda thing, never a mid-course change. I'll give it some thought.  

Gene, I appreciate your position quite a lot. I'm very sympathetic to that. Certainly you cannot function in a leadership position w/o communicating with your people & working to address their needs. It may well be in the case you cited that that person is indespensible in personnel & PAO, but you shouldn't just tell them NO you can't move to ES cause we need you where you are. What you need to do is say, "well we need you in this critical spot right now; I think you know better than anyone how critical your work is to keeping us on our feet; I know you want to move to ES though, I tell you what I'll do, we're going to put this guy with you for personnel & this guy over here with you on PAO; over the next six months I want you to make sure they can do those jobs as well as you're doing now, THEN I'll move you over, but I may still need to ask your advice from time to time, hows that work for you?" You do have to give people the chance to move around. They have to either do a grunt work position for a rotation then move over to the job they want, or they have to wear two hats & do a little of both at the same time. No one should get a free ride though. Take care of your people absolutely, but on a certain level in command you have to know you're spending people like fuel/ammo to get the job done - spending  them wisely & efficiently is what you have to focus on.

Oh and awards.. I wasn't talking about ribbons & certificates. I was talking about holding out that ES job as a reward for putting in your time on other things, or putting people on top of the call out list that bust their butts at home, versus the ATP w/ 10k hours that never shows up unless there's free flight time to be had. I don't think you should tinker with the set standards of formal deocrations. They aren't supposed to be for the individual getting them anyways, they are for everyone else looking on. Use that to your advantage, but never let that get politicized.

This is GREAT conversation by the way, very instructive for Sq level leadership & member mentoring.

[RiverAux]

Sounds to me like that guy has a lazy commander with a skewed sense of priorities.  If this guy is the ES go-to person he needs to be doing that.  Others can be taught  the Personnel/Admin duties.