is civil air patrol a Military organization

[JCSCADET]

I know Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air force have a close connection.  but due to the lack of knowledge at my squadron i need to find out if CAP is a MILITARY organization.  and where can i find it in black and white.

Also, shouldent a member know this before becoming a unit commander?

[Pylon]

I know Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air force have a close connection.  but due to the lack of knowledge at my squadron i need to find out if CAP is a MILITARY organization.  and where can i find it in black and white

NO! CAP is not a military organization, CAP is not part of the Armed Forces of the United States, and CAP members are civilians, not military personnel by any stretch of the imagination.

If your unit is really that in the dark, you might need to bring some people in from Group or something and get your leaders, both cadet and senior, some orientation and professional development training.  This is a basic characteristic of our organization.  It's akin to being in some other organization and not knowing whether it's a charity or a for-profit company.

Civil Air Patrol is a corporation, created by Public Law, with humanitarian missions (AE, CP, ES).  CAP enjoys the status of the official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, but we are the civilian auxiliary.

If we were really in the military, CAP members would have DoD issued ID cards and would have to get processed into DEERS and all sorts of other lovely things.  But we don't, because we're not a part of the military.  While we enjoy a close working relationship with the military, and they allow us to play on their things and work alongside them sometimes, we're still an outside civilian organization.

This is spelt out clearly in most every CAP recruiting publication, as well as all over NHQ's website.

The CAP Knowledgebase also tries to tackle this misconception here.

[Westernslope]

.

[Major_Chuck]

You will hear a lot of debate about this topic between those who seen our designation as the civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force (which is an honor in itself) and our status as a Federally chartered Non-profit corporation.

We are not a military organization nor are we bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.  We do however receive oversight, funding, and support from the Air Force as their 'auxiliary'. 

Our corporate status enables us to do a lot that if we were under direct AF control we would not be able to do.

1.  Generate revenue/fund raisers.  Air Force is prohibited from generating revenue.

2.  Enter into agreements with local and state governments as well as Federal agencies and other non-governmental agencies such as the American Red Cross.

Hurricane Katrina is a prime example.  The military could have gone into the hurricane area on day one but by law was prohibited to without being requested by the governors of the states and then approved by the Secretary of Defense.   Local and State Governments had only to contact our National Operations Center to obtain CAP support.

Are we part of the Air Force?  Yes and no.  We are their 'civilian auxiliary' and a member of the Air Force family.  We are not a military force.  We are not part of the 'Profession of Arms'. 

Final thought:  We wear an Air Force style uniform, very similar to a military uniform.  A uniform configuration that was approved by the USAF.  The general public makes no distinction between a USAF uniform and CAP Uniform.  They see 'Blue', Blue means Air Force.  While we may not be military we need to wear that uniform with the same pride and respect that our military brothers and sisters wear theirs. 

[BillB]

I think everyone is missing the point that the question was asked by a cadet. I think he was looking at the military aspects of the cadet program, D&C, chain of command etc.
While CAP is NOT part of the military, it follows it's militay heritage from World War II when CAP was started as a totally civilian organization, and transferred to the US Army Air Force. As part of the USAAF, CAP provided pre-flight pilot training, vasics of military life and classwork of value to a person going into the military. But over the years, mainly since the 1970's, CAP has slowly moved to more of a civilian run organization. But CAP still has it's roots in the USAF as the Official USAF Auxiliary, and as such alot of the military aspects are involved, mainly in the cadet program. Do we wear the uniform of the USAF, yes and no, we wear the basic uniform, but with distinctive CAP insignia. And the uniform is worn in a military manner.
If you're asking if CAP is OPERATED as a military organization, the answer again is yes and no. CAP operates along military lines, but unlike the military you can quit at any time. CAP observes the military rank and command structure, so again the answer is it is "semi-military" while remaining a civilian organization with USAF oversight.

[JCSCADET]

if civil air patrol was part of the United States Air Force shouldnt we all have to go throught basic training and such?

[Westernslope]

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[ladyreferee]

I know Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air force have a close connection.  but due to the lack of knowledge at my squadron i need to find out if CAP is a MILITARY organization.  and where can i find it in black and white.

Also, shouldent a member know this before becoming a unit commander?

Major Chuck posted a link to the Virtual Historical Museum for the Civil Air Patrol on another discussion.  Here is the link you should check out. 

"One of the goals of the CAP Historical Foundation is to build a museum dedicated to our rich history.  That of course takes a lot of money and a lot of time and is  years down the road.

However, they have created a virtual musuem which is rather interesting.

http://www.caphistory.org/index.html

A lot of interesting photos and facts that could add to your internal and external AE programs."

Thanks Major Chuck for this fascinating view of our rich CAP history! 

[Major_Chuck]

I know Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air force have a close connection.  but due to the lack of knowledge at my squadron i need to find out if CAP is a MILITARY organization.  and where can i find it in black and white.

Also, shouldent a member know this before becoming a unit commander?

Perhaps it would help if we knew the reason for your question.  Is the lack of knowledge at the cadet level or the unit commander level?

There is lots of documentation stating that we are not a military organization but at the same time we are rooted in military tradition.

Regarding basic training.......as part of the leadership training/experience for cadets, cadets should be providing most of the basic training - whether it is at squadron level or at an encampment.

So true, the question was open ended so you're getting a lot of open ended answers.  If you can be more specific we could narrow our answers for you.

[flyguy06]

CAP is not a military organization per se, but we do follow military rules and regulations and military customs and courtisiousies. The cadet program is very military and I believe that if you are a senior member that works with cadets, you should conform to military customs as well. Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt grey slcaks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you dont met the height and weight standard

[JaL5597]

CAP is not a military organization per se, but we do follow military rules and regulations and military customs and courtisiousies. The cadet program is very military and I believe that if you are a senior member that works with cadets, you should conform to military customs as well. Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt grey slcaks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you dont met the height and weight standard

Cool.  Knowingly and willingly violating the uniform manual.

I know plently of highly motivated senior members who are not allowed by regulation to wear the military style uniforms. 

I see it as shooting your program in the foot if you try to limit the participation on the sole basis of what uniform the senior members wear.

[arajca]

CAP is not a military organization per se, but we do follow military rules and regulations and military customs and courtisiousies. The cadet program is very military and I believe that if you are a senior member that works with cadets, you should conform to military customs as well. Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt grey slcaks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you dont met the height and weight standard

1. The level of "military-ness" depends on the unit. Some units imagine themselves as Real Military and some more as a military-styled youth group. Right or wrong, that is a decision each unit makes, repeatedly.
2. You must have a whole bunch of seniors if you dictate who works with cadets based on what uniform they wear. You also present a very poor example of tolerance, if you base - as it seems - someone's value on what clothes they wear.
3. Since when do you have the authority to over rule National regs? Regs say senior members who work with cadets will wear a CAP uniform. It does not specify which uniform, just a uniform.
4. If SM's (and cadets over the age of 18) don't meet the height/weight requirements for the AF uniform, THEY CANNOT WEAR THE BDU. So you are telling them to violate the regs.
5. While you may not like the golf shirt uniform, there are many SM who wear it because they don't feel right wearing the AF uniform, they can't afford the aviator shirt, or they don't have time to set it up. There are many other reasons.

[ladyreferee]

Okay guys, step back and chill.     A senior who doesn't meet the weight/height restrictions can wear the blue smurf BDU.  I believe the problem that flyguy was talking about was that he doesn't like to see a senior wearing a blue AF shirt with grey slacks - he was mixing two different uniforms!  Either pick one or the other.  As they say, do as I say, not do as I do..... (I had a great golf instructor once who taught well but had a horrible slice.....)   

[Camas]

"How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don't wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they won't work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you don't met the height and weight standard"

Lets rethink this- refer to CAPM 39-1.  I appreciate that it's a tough call when cadets are in a military-style uniform and seniors aren't but if a senior doesn't meet grooming and/or weight standards that's just the way it is.  Also please review your last sentence.  I would have loved to wear BDU's when I didn't meet weight standards but couldn't. 

"A senior who doesn't meet the weight/height restrictions can wear the blue smurf BDU."

Not anymore - that uniform was phased out sometime ago.

  Maybe this discussion should be in the "Uniforms" board.

[ladyreferee]

Wait a minute.  Isn't the CAP Distinctive Blue Field Uniform (page 79 of the CAPM 39-1) called the blue smurf BDU?  That is the one I was referring to.  Those haven't been phased out since I am looking at the March 23, 2005 manual and those are what is pictured.  I'm sorry but I wouldn't know of anything that had been around but no isn't since I've only been a member for a year.

[BillB]

The blue BDU can be worn by seniors that do NOT meet weight standards. It's called the "blue field uniform", it has no connection to the old smerf uniform. No military insignia  (wings etc) can be worn of the blue BDU where they can be worn on the woodland BDU.

[arajca]

Wait a minute.  Isn't the CAP Distinctive Blue Field Uniform (page 79 of the CAPM 39-1) called the blue smurf BDU?  That is the one I was referring to.  Those haven't been phased out since I am looking at the March 23, 2005 manual and those are what is pictured.  I'm sorry but I wouldn't know of anything that had been around but no isn't since I've only been a member for a year.

CAP used to have a light blue (Smurf shade) coverall - mechanics style, not flyers style. It was frequently refered to as the "Smurf suit". Usually in a negative way. They were phased out about three years ago. The field uniform is identical to the bdu in cut and pattern, it is just midnight blue instead of woodland camo. The field uniform is frequently abbreviated as bbdu for "blue bdu".

[shorning]

5. While you may not like the golf shirt uniform, there are many SM who wear it because they don't feel right wearing the AF uniform, they can't afford the aviator shirt, or they don't have time to set it up. There are many other reasons.

And oddly enough that is still a uniform!   The regulations state that seniors working with cadets will wear a uniform.  It does not specify which one to wear.  To require your senior members to wear a specific uniform to participate in one of the core programs is a little draconian.

I'm active duty Air Force and I still prefer to wear the corporate uniforms for CAP.  Personally, I'd like to see more seniors in corporate uniforms. I don't think most seniors need to wear AF-style uniforms...

[Matt]

*scratches head*

Still trying to figure out how we tapered out to uniforms again.

*Ends Pondering*

[shorning]

[redacted}

[arajca]

Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt grey slcaks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you dont met the height and weight standard

This is how who got into the topic of uiforms.

[Matt]

ah, thank you...

*amended*
For clarification, the Blue shirt and Gray slacks (not as I originally thought) refers to the Polo/golf shirt and gray slacks.

Perhaps the SM's instructing are setting an example.  CAP as stated by arajca in a later post, we're paramilitary.  We also have a professional image to maintain.  The polo and slacks maintains the professional image and maintains uniformity among SM's.
*end amendment*

[arajca]

ah, thank you...

So, we can all agree that perhaps someone should make some SM's read books.  Heaven forbid that they have to read a little bit to know what the organization is and what it's about.  God have mercy if they had to pick up a reg/manual.

I concur with Flyguy, although I have never seen it (the SNAFU uniform combo), the fact that a SM would be instructing a cadet on something that they themselves cannot do is simply BS.  Do as you ask of those you command (Gen. George S. Patton).

Since you obviously have a problem with senior members, perhaps you should find out how much they put into keeping your unit running. (Hint: 90% or more happens outside the meetings and away from cadets).

As I stated before, I think Flyguy is way off base.

I also see a major flaw in your logic. Just because someone doesn't wear the same uniform as you doesn't mean they don't know how to wear it.  I don't wear the AF uniforms, but I teach the correct way to wear it. The example the cadets need to follow is the cadet leadership. One decision that I made - much to the dismay of the cadet staff - was the cadet staff could not wear the service coat to regular meetings until ALL the cadets could consistantly wear their uniforms correctly. For special occasions they can still wear it.

Requiring more than what National requires in this case isn't a good thing. If my unit commander came out an said that any member working with cadets had to wear the AF uniform would find himself working with cadets alone - that includes ML classes. Also, he'd find it real hard to get o-rides since most of the pilots wear the golf shirt uniform. National requires that members working with cadet wear a CAP uniform.

[arajca]

To get back to the original topic:

CAP is not a military organization like the US Army or Air Force.

CAP is a paramilitary organization. Meaning it follows a military based structure.

[Matt]

And back to the side...

I have no problem with people telling me how to wear my uniform while they wear a different uniform.  The logic behind my statement comes from a mis-interpretation now that I look back.  I mis-read the statement, I took it as a Blues shirt and Gray slacks (as in the aviator combo).  I forgot about the blue POLO shirt that SM's are allowed to wear.

Looking at it correctly, I would have to side with you.  If they're wearing the corp. uniform, then yes, there should be no problem.  Perhaps it is setting an example (not in all cases, but in some) perhaps the SM's are out of W/G standards and by wearing the polo/slacks combo they are within the regs, that in and of itself is admirable.

My apologies for my misreading (amendment will be made on previous).

Side Note: You infer that I have a problem with all SM's, please let me put this out - NO.  Most of my SM's have been in for the better duration of their lives, I have the utmost respect and loyalty to them, they know that.  For SM's I regularly meet, I have no problem with, in fact, I get along with 98% of them.  The 2% I don't get along with are those who think they are God's and Cadets know diddly squat.

[WICAPMOM]

I love Civil Air Patrol!  It is a paramilitary VOLUNTEER organization.  How much military attitude is put into it depends on the unit.  I have scene the gambit range from para-marines to a social flying club.  Each group of members should really find out what fits for them and stick with it.

I also do not wear the AF blue uniform has I am over weight.  I primarily wear the white aviator shirt with the gray slacks, so I can proudly wear the rank and Civil Air Patrol awards that I have earned.  It is an approved Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniform.  I have yet to purchase the Blue BDUs, I know that I need to.  I feel I set a fine example to the cadets when I wear the white & grays.  Better than if I tried to shove my self into my old AF blues. 

If anyone told me or anyone like me that we could not work with cadets because of that, then myself and the MAJORITY of seniors I know would be lost to the organization.

My unit is very active and we do a lot for the Cadets.

That would be an immensely sad day.  Look around you, how much would get done?  Would you have the support you truly need?

[WICAPMOM]

CAP is not a military organization per se, but we do follow military rules and regulations and military customs and courtesies. The cadet program is very military and I believe that if you are a senior member that works with cadets, you should conform to military customs as well. Nothing ticks me off more than to see SM's that work with cadets wear the blue shirt gray slacks combo. How can you tell a cadet to wear his uniform correctly, if you don wear one yourself? Its not setting a good example in my book. Thats why I tell Sm's that work with me they WILL wear one of the military style uniforms or they wont work with cadets. You can wear the BDU uniform even if you don't met the height and weight standard

Please be careful you could be opening yourself up to a lot of problems if you disallow people who can not (or should not) wear the AF Style uniform from working with the cadets. 

Also the weight standards do apply to the BDUs.  It just seems to me that a lot of members ignore this fact.

[SarDragon]

[redacted]  Also the weight standards do apply to the BDUs.  It just seems to me that a lot of members ignore this fact.

I'm hoping you are referring only to the AF-style camo BDUs. The Blue BDUs have no weight restrictions. flyguy06 was a bit unclear in his reference.

[Dan]

I don't think we'll ever reach consensus in answering the original question.  Each of us sees CAP from different perspectives.

Personally, I joined CAP three months ago because of its core values, rather than for any particular organizational style.  CAP allows me to volunteer in a variety of ways, and to work with others who choose to do the same.

There are times when I appreciate the military aspects of CAP, such as the purpose of uniforms, observing military customs and courtesies, and the focus on missions. But I also enjoy the non-military aspects of my relationship with cadets and other senior members.

More specifically, I use the core value of Respect when it comes to uniforms. For me, the type of uniform isn't as important as how we work together to accomplish our missions. I wear the AF-style blues, but that in no way detracts from my respect for my fellow SM's who do not.  Their experience and dedication are inspiring, regardless of grade, rank, or uniform style.

So, I side with Julie's earlier post. I agree that CAP would lose a lot of qualified and dedicated SM's over an intolerant insistence on a certain uniform, whether that comes from other SM's or from cadets. I am especially concerned that cadets are allowed to show disrespect for SM's just because of the type of uniform worn. I've not seen that happen in our squadron, and hope I never do.

[flyguy06]

Let me try and clarify what I meant. I am a young Seniro Member . I am also inthe military. I try to put myself in the cadets shoes. If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing Iwould do is look at them to se if they are in standard. Now, if they dont even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no rom to tell me anything. Cause they are not seetting the example. Set the example is a serious leadership principle that I have learned throughout the years and one that I try everyday to follow not just in CAP, but in everything I do. We as SM's that work with cadets must set the pace. NEVER make a statement that the cadets should look up to the senior cadets and not the SM's. If you really feel that way, then why are you aroound? To babysit? I really dont mean to offend anyne, but that logic just doesnt make sense to me.

[flyguy06]

Civil AIr Patrol is NOT the military. We are military like though. We follow military rules and customs. I like to think of CAP as a psuedo ROTC program. We teach leadership using the military as a tool to teach leadership. Yes, I am probably one of those people that others will say joined CAP to exert authority. Thats not true, but that fine if they think that. I want my cadets to be the best leaders they can be. Iwant to instill responsibility, discipline and leadership in them at an erly age. You can fly an airplane at the age of 16. Before Iput a 16 year old inthe air Iam going to make sure he has what it takes. Many cadets want to go into the military either as pilots or something else. SO, Iuse CAP to give them an introduction to what the military is like. When I was a cadet, it helped me for when I beame a soldier. Thats my 2 cents.

[SarDragon]

[redacted] If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing Iwould do is look at them to se if they are in standard. Now, if they dont even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no rom to tell me anything. [further redacted]

Someone doesn't have to be wearing the same uniform as you to know something about it. I can stand in front of you in civilian clothes and pick out most of the problems that you have on your uniform. I've spent a significant part of my life wearing one uniform or another, and there are certain common features that cross organizational lines. I don't know what service you are in, but I can still pick out things that might be wrong with it because of that commonality.

As for your commentary on CAP vs. military, it is partly correct. Since CAP is not the military, you can't use all the military training techniques you learned in boot camp. To do so would violate CAP regulations. We are dealing with juveniles here, not adults, so the rules and procedures are going to be different. It is very important to work within these rules to provide the best training for our cadets. And we are NOT a pseudo-ROTC program - the goals are entirely different, in spite of the similarities.

[WICAPMOM]

If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing I would do is look at them to see if they are in standard. Now, if they don't even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no room to tell me anything. Cause they are not setting the example. Set the example is a serious leadership principle that I have learned throughout the years and one that I try everyday to follow not just in CAP, but in everything I do. We as SM's that work with cadets must set the pace. NEVER make a statement that the cadets should look up to the senior cadets and not the SM's. If you really feel that way, then why are you around? To babysit? I really don't mean to offend anyone, but that logic just doesn't make sense to me.

I have been in Civil Air Patrol for going on 19 years.  I was a cadet, achieving cadet officer grade, and have, in the past,  worn the Civil Air Patrol's version of the Air Force Uniform.  I have experience and education to share, I am not a babysitter.  I am a team member with many very fine young adults that we refer to as cadets.  I am willing to teach others and to learn in turn.  I wear my uniform properly, which is now the white and grays.  And this is some of what I believe helps to make me a good leader.

I know that many cadets and seniors respect me, some of whom are members on CAPtalk.  These cadets are VERY impressive in appearance, mannerisms, and willingness to advance their education and training (as in the cadet oath, yes I still know it by heart) and more.

I am not at all offended, I am only trying to let you know that you could be helping the cadets more if you look beyond to discover all of the aspects that CAP has to offer.  Regardless of uniform that opportunity is packaged in.  Civil Air Patrol is SO MUCH more than an introduction to military life.

I am glad that you are so passionate about Civil Air Patrol. 

[flyguy06]

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear. I would lokk at you like you funny, and this is the opinion of most of the cadets I talk to. I didnt just make this up cause Iamin the military. I talk to cadets and I ask them what they like about CAP and what they dont like about CAP, and well, at least in my part of Aemrica that is one issue they addresed.
CAP squadrons are differant. They are ran differant and thats a good thing. I run my cadet program like an ROTC unit,  Maybe some people dont.  I don tuse all the military techniques, but then again, I dont traet them like boy scouts either ( and I was a boy scout too as well as a cadet)

Again, I remember what CAP did for my leadership development  and I want to develop young aerospace leaders and young leaders period. 90% of my squadron is mlitary or former military. SO, thats our perspective. I am in the process now of developing a flight encampment. It will be run similarly to UPT.

Yes, I am very passionate about CAP. I am passionate about my community.

[Major_Chuck]

CAP is what each member makes it.  We've all joined for various reasons and bring to the table what we wish to offer. 

In 1990 it was a means for me to maintain my relationship with the Air Force.  Since then I've been fortunate to be able to grow within CAP and experience many, many opportunties within our 'three missions'.

How we view ourselves, CAP the Corporation or CAP the USAF Auxiliary all depends upon what our mission and activity at the time is.  We can debate what we should be or call ourselves until the end of time. 

We have a lot of members who sit on the sidelines and complain about policy, regulations or the future of CAP but do nothing to positively make an impact on those concerns or complaints.  Each member from the Cadet Basic to the Maj Gen has a duty and responsibility to actively participate in this organization on some level or capacity.

Uniforms:  We are required to wear our uniforms correctly and we should wear them proudly, regardless of if it is a USAF style or CAP Distinctive.  CAP Officers working directly with Cadets should wear the same uniform combination or at least the CAP Distinctive uniform equivilent to what the cadets are wearing.  But what about the CAP Officer who is just there to lend a hand or teach a class and does not actively participate with Cadets.  They need to be in a proper uniform but it should not matter which one, as long as it is worn correctly and presents a professional image of both CAP and the USAF.

[capchiro]

Unfortunately, you are wrong in your statement that if someone is not in the same uniform as the person they are inspecting they have no right to correct the person.  Any senior member outranks the highest cadet in the program.  Respect and obedience is attached to rank, not uniform.  The basic uniform for senior members is the aviator white shirt and grey slacks.  This is the uniform that CAP requires senior members to have, all other uniforms are optional.  Do you have the aviator shirt and grey slacks?  If you are running your unit like a military unit and are using push-ups, etc., for punishment, you are in violation of CAP hazing regulations.  It is just that simple.  One needs to look at the overall CAP program to determine how military we are.  Handicapped people, people of any age over 12, and people of all sizes and weights are welcome in our program.  That is not so in the military.  We are here to help create self-esteem and a feeling of accomplishment in our cadets, not a feeling of not being good enough, lean enough, mean enough, or rough enough.  This is not the Rangers or Green Berets.  This is a quasi-military civilian corporation.  Perhaps one might want to review the movie TAPS as a leadership exercise and see some of the pitfalls of hardcare military training of youngsters.  CAP was originally designed to be a senior program and to utilize seniors to assist the military as civilians.  Many of these civilians did not qualify for active duty military service.  The same is true today.  The cadet program was an add-on and would not exist for a day without the assistance of countless overweight, too old, out of shape, non-military wearing senior members that give tirelessly of their time, effort and money.  I suggest that some people reconsider whether they are part of the problem or part of the solution.  I have often found that young military types are an asset to the program to help with drill and ceremony and leadership, but I have also found that many times they are a detriment to the program through their zest, zeal and inability to read and properly interpret CAP regulations.  This is just my opinion.  I have many years in CAP, I served in the military, I come from an Air Force family and my oldest son went to the Air Force Academy.  I am not bragging, just letting everyone know that I am not anti-military, but I am pro-CAP and know the difference.  For everyone's edification, there is another thread under Uniforms that points out that BDU's are not required for cadets or anyone else in the CAP program and ties in to this question of how military is CAP and questions the legitmacy of commanders requiring anyone to wear BDU's....I am sure that I have said more than enough at this point....       

[SarDragon]

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear. [redacted]

Yes, I do! If we are both in CAP and you are wearing a crappy uniform, I will most assuredly tell you about it, regardless of what I'm wearing. Since I first joined CAP, I've been through at least half a dozen different dress uniform combinations, and many more variations of non-dress uniforms and wore them all in the proper manner.

Just because I no longer wear AF-style uniforms because of my facial hair makes me no less an expert on how to wear it. As a cadet leader in my last unit, I was responsible for staying current on uniform issues, and as the Admin Officer, I made sure the entire unit was kept up-to-date on changes in directives.

[Westernslope]

.

[shorning]

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear.

Well...you'd be wrong.  Still!  Are you sure you're in the military?

I work in a joint command.  Even though I don't wear the same uniform as the Army, Navy, or Marines I work with, I still know how their uniforms should be worn.  If I don't know about an item, I ask or find out.  As a SNCO, if a soldier is wearing their uniform wrong, it's my duty to correct the problem.

It's no different with the different uniforms in CAP.

[Pylon]

I am NOT saying that you would not be able to see deficiencies. I am saying that you have no right to corret me on them if you are not wearing he same thing I wear.

Well...you'd be wrong.  Still!  Are you sure you're in the military?

I work in a joint command.  Even though I don't wear the same uniform as the Army, Navy, or Marines I work with, I still know how their uniforms should be worn.  If I don't know about an item, I ask or find out.  As a SNCO, if a soldier is wearing their uniform wrong, it's my duty to correct the problem.

It's no different with the different uniforms in CAP.

Very well put, Colonel.  Thank you. 

[Matt]

Very well put, Colonel.  Thank you. 

Concured!  Game-Set-Match!

[WICAPMOM]

I appreciate the ample responces.  I feel like the knights have come to my aid.

Civil Air Patrol is full of many people with varying opinions and experience.   I know that there is always more to be learned.  I greatly value all of the information provided on this web site.  I may not always agree but every opinion is valuable and offers much incite.  (Flyguy06, we will just have to agree to disagree)

I am currently in the process of preparing for my possible first squadron command.  While the idea is a little intimidating, I know it is time for me to take this next step.  There is a lot to learn but the resources that I have to draw from will help.  I will make use of the experience of all that I respect.  And most importantly will share my love of Civil Air Patrol.

I have yet to finalize my decision, I pray I make the right choice.

Wish me luck.

[Pylon]

I appreciate the ample responces.  I feel like the knights have come to my aid.

Civil Air Patrol is full of many people with varying opinions and experience.   I know that there is always more to be learned.  I greatly value all of the information provided on this web site.  I may not always agree but every opinion is valuable and offers much incite.  (Flyguy06, we will just have to agree to disagree)

I am currently in the process of preparing for my possible first squadron command.  While the idea is a little intimidating, I know it is time for me to take this next step.  There is a lot to learn but the resources that I have to draw from will help.  I will make use of the experience of all that I respect.  And most importantly will share my love of Civil Air Patrol.

I have yet to finalize my decision, I pray I make the right choice.

Wish me luck.

Well definitely good luck with that decision.  It certainly is one that should undergo careful consideration of your time committment and ability to withstand stress (not to scare you off, but to be realistic about it)!   

As you so aptly put, one of the great aspects of CAPTalk in my opinion, is the uncanny ability for all of us to discuss (and often disagree) in such a professional and civil manner.  Agreeing to disagree and civilly bringing up each individual's points-of-view on the matter with respect for others' opinions has been such a great thing to see in action here.  It really makes us unique from other CAP-related discussion sites, in my opinion, and I have to hand it to all of you for being the ones to make that happen. 

And since I'm suddenly in the habit of quoting others' comments, I'll quote one of the individuals at SLS this weekend regarding your comment about there's always more to learn.  It was said, "You only stop learning when they put the first shovelful of dirt on ya."  You're right -- we all stand to learn from the experiences of others, no matter what our personal level of expertise might be. 

Good luck!

[dankaten]

Let me try and clarify what I meant. I am a young Seniro Member . I am also inthe military. I try to put myself in the cadets shoes. If someone came up to me and said for example that my gigline was off or that my shoes were not to standard. The first thing Iwould do is look at them to se if they are in standard. Now, if they dont even have on the same thing that I have on, they have no rom to tell me anything. Cause they are not seetting the example. Set the example is a serious leadership principle that I have learned throughout the years and one that I try everyday to follow not just in CAP, but in everything I do. We as SM's that work with cadets must set the pace. NEVER make a statement that the cadets should look up to the senior cadets and not the SM's. If you really feel that way, then why are you aroound? To babysit? I really dont mean to offend anyne, but that logic just doesnt make sense to me.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. You are a young Senior Member and you are also in the Military. I am an old Senior Member and Ex-Military (Warrant Officer in the Army). I have only been in CAP for 2 years as of this month. I am also the Commander for  a Composite Squadron. What I see here is a lack of education. You say that you have polled your Cadets and they agree that that the first thing they do is look at what the person correcting this is wearing. When this happens that is your opportunity to educate a Cadet. As with most young people you automatically assume that when a person corrects you that it is a personal attact on you or the way you wear your uniform. When you are told that you are wearing your uniform incorrecty it is to help you not attack you. As I said earlier I have only been in the CAP two years. I have had a couple people correct my uniform in the wearing of CAP awards and such. They were helping me to wear my uniform correctly, not chastizing me for the way I wear it. I can wear the military uniform and do on occassion but I also wear the CAP uniform. I have a gig line on the white aviator shirt just as well as on the air force blues. I believe if you go back and ask your Cadets what bothers them the most it will be that the Senior Members wear the uniform improperly. If they do believe that it is Senior Members correcting their uniform when they are not wearing the same uniform then you might do a little educating and let them know the Senior Members are telling them for their benefit and not to be mean. Would they rather have a Senior Member correct them while they are in their unit or have someone else catch it when they are trying to win a competition? Setting an example of wearing a uniform simply means wear the uniform you have on, correctly, it doesn't mean you have to wear the same uniform. you are correct, leading by example is ONE of the greatest forms of leadership but it isn't the only one. Showing tolerance and respect for differences is also a couple of others.
Just my two cents.

Capt. Katen

[JaL5597]

I guess I have a diffrent viewpoint on things than some people.  I have been in CAP for 9 years, 8 of them as a senior member.  I was a cadet for 13 months earning 2 stripes and serving as the Cadet First Sergeant in my squadron.

So I do know what its like to be in their shoes.  I know it can be a royal pain in the rear when senior members come in and stick their noses into things all the time.  Thats why I am a firm believer in the cadet chain of command and using it.  When I was a Squadron Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets I would spend all my time with the senior cadet staff using my knowlage and experience to critique the lower cadet staff (and also providing a senior member presence at all times.)  The cadet commander would then make the corrections going down the chain.  The only time I would step in is at the request of the cadets. 

I work at wing hq now so I am not directly involved in the week to week interactions with cadets anymore.  I do wear the Air Force style uniforms when I do wear one.  When I correct cadets on uniforms its normally on something that they misunderstood or were taught incorrectly.  If they have reason to argue with me we go and find CAPM 39-1. 

I have been corrected on my own uniform more than once.  I simply listen and say thank you when that happens. 

Granted there are many ways to view running the program.  I have seen and heard alot of things.  I don't necissairly agree with everything but if its what works for your local conditions and your not violating the regulations then who am I to argue with your methods?

[Westernslope]

I know it can be a royal pain in the rear when senior members come in and stick their noses into things all the time.  Thats why I am a firm believer in the cadet chain of command and using it.  When I was a Squadron Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets I would spend all my time with the senior cadet staff using my knowlage and experience to critique the lower cadet staff (and also providing a senior member presence at all times.)  The cadet commander would then make the corrections going down the chain.  The only time I would step in is at the request of the cadets. 

[Westernslope]

I know it can be a royal pain in the rear when senior members come in and stick their noses into things all the time.  Thats why I am a firm believer in the cadet chain of command and using it.  When I was a Squadron Leadership Officer and Acting Deputy Commander for Cadets I would spend all my time with the senior cadet staff using my knowlage and experience to critique the lower cadet staff (and also providing a senior member presence at all times.)  The cadet commander would then make the corrections going down the chain.  The only time I would step in is at the request of the cadets. 

(OOPS, I hit that key just a little too fast )

I agree. I like using the cadet chain of command as well. 

[Maj Ballard]

The basic uniform for senior members is the aviator white shirt and grey slacks.  This is the uniform that CAP requires senior members to have, all other uniforms are optional.       

Wait wait wait... Where did you get this information?

[capchiro]

Excellent, I have been foiled on my own sabre...In my haste of response, I naturally forgot to put down the minimum basic AF style uniform, which is the required uniform for cadets and is optional for senior members, optional in that senior members may wear the CAP distinctive aviator outfit/uniform or the AF style (depending upon personal choice and weight/grooming standards)....My bad, I humbly apologize....and hope I haven't misled any of our fine cadets.... For reference CAPM 39-1, 1-5 (a.) and (b.)

[shorning]

Excellent, I have been foiled on my own sabre...In my haste of response, I naturally forgot to put down the minimum basic AF style uniform, which is the required uniform for cadets and is optional for senior members, optional in that senior members may wear the CAP distinctive aviator outfit/uniform or the AF style (depending upon personal choice and weight/grooming standards)....My bad, I humbly apologize....and hope I haven't misled any of our fine cadets.... For reference CAPM 39-1, 1-5 (a.) and (b.)

Hmmm....I seem to recall that seniors only are required to wear a uniform if they are working with cadets.  So it's possible that a member might never wear a uniform.  As long as they don't work with cadets, drive a corporate vehicle, or fly a corporate aircraft.    Of course I could be mistaken since I haven't been active in the past few years...

[capchiro]

While common sense would seem to support you and I do believe you are right about the older days, CAPM 39-1 states that the member will equip himself/herself with the basic uniform and that it is the member's responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform and that the minimum basic uniform for cadets is the blue Air Force shirt/trouser combo, while the minimum basic uniform for seniors is the same or the CAP distinctive aviator shirt/gray trouser combo.  With this language in mind, it sounds like we are to have a uniform, but are we required to wear it?  I think the cadet manual may require seniors working with cadets to wear a uniform, but I don't have the manual here, so I am not sure on that.  You are right about the corporate vehicle, corporate aircraft and I think on Air force aircraft also...However, there is no place in the manual that states a cadet or anyone must have and wear BDU's, and instead it states that such wear may only be reuired if the BDU's or other optional items are supplied without expense or the wear is voluntary, ie., as in not mandatory.  This leads to the question about weither we can require cadets to bring BDU's to summer encampment??? 

[dankaten]

You are correct. Senior members are not required to wear a uniform unless they are working with Cadets, flying in corporate aircraft or driving a corporate vehicle. Cadets are provided a blues shirt and pants to wear but that is all.
As a Squadron Commander you can say what is the minimum but you have to keep in mind that you may lose members if you designate a particular uniform and cannot provide it to the members.
My recommendation is that if you don't have a complete uniform so that you can wear it appropriately then wear civilian clothes. I choose to say the same thing when it comes to Cadets. The only people that I require to have a uniform are the Senior Members working with Cadets because it says they must have a uniform according to regulations.

Cpt. Katen
Commander
Delta Composite Squadron
TX334

[md132]

To answer the first question asked.  The answer could be answered by AFI 10-2701 Organization and Function of Civil Air Patrol.  The link is http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/10/afi10-2701/afi10-2701.pdf

But I would have to say yes and no to the question of Is CAP a military organization.  Yes because we are part of the Air Force family and we follow military customs, learn drills and ceremonies, etc.  No, because we do not have the same status as AD military.  As CAP we cannot give an order to an AD airmen and so forth.  Our rank is basically considered honorary.  We do not get the same courtesies as AD military. 

Also to comment about uniforms and working with cadets.  I work with cadets and I either wear my service uniform for the first meeting of the moth than the rest of the month I would wear one of the corporate uniforms.  As long as the member wears one of the approved uniforms and it is appropiate for the activity and is work correctly, it should be fine. 

[BlueLakes1]

FYI, members are not required to be in uniform when driving or riding in CAP corporate vehicles. Answer #1610 from the Knowledgebase:

Requirement to wear a CAP uniform while riding in a CAP vehicle

  Question
  Must a uniform be worn to drive/ride in a CAP van? If so, by driver and all pax?

  Answer
  There is no specific requirement for senior members to be in uniform while driving or riding in a CAP van unless they are participating in or conducting the cadet program (unless the wing or region has established such a requirement.)

CAP uniform wear is required by all while participating in or conducting the cadet program or flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in CAP flight activity). If cadets and seniors working with cadets are traveling in a CAP vehicle while participating in the cadet program, they normally should be in uniform. However, the regulation does allow region or wing commanders, or designees (usually group or unit commanders), to prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. In this case cadets might be authorized by a commander to ride in CAP vehicles wearing civilian clothes. For example, during a volunteer clean up day or trip to a theme park or unit picnic or other social gathering, all CAP members would likely be in civilian clothes.

See Table 1-1 below from The new CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual has been published effective 23 Mar 2005. See Answer 1133: CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual published

Table 1-1. Wearing the CAP Uniform
Wear the uniform while participating in or conducting the cadet program or flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in CAP flight activity). The service uniform, BDU, utility uniform, field uniform, CAP or AF-style flight suit, CAP blazer, aviator shirt, or knit shirt uniform combinations are all authorized. The wing commander, or designee, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. The region commander will prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.

Also see Answer 809: Driving a CAP vehicle Click Here

Answer 808: Procedures for obtaining a CAP Motor Vehicle Operator Identification Card Click Here

[WICAPMOM]

Well definitely good luck with that decision.  It certainly is one that should undergo careful consideration of your time commitment and ability to withstand stress (not to scare you off, but to be realistic about it)!   

As you so aptly put, one of the great aspects of CAPTalk in my opinion, is the uncanny ability for all of us to discuss (and often disagree) in such a professional and civil manner.  Agreeing to disagree and civilly bringing up each individual's points-of-view on the matter with respect for others' opinions has been such a great thing to see in action here.  It really makes us unique from other CAP-related discussion sites, in my opinion, and I have to hand it to all of you for being the ones to make that happen. 

And since I'm suddenly in the habit of quoting others' comments, I'll quote one of the individuals at SLS this weekend regarding your comment about there's always more to learn.  It was said, "You only stop learning when they put the first shovelful of dirt on ya."  You're right -- we all stand to learn from the experiences of others, no matter what our personal level of expertise might be. 

Good luck!

Thank you for your thoughts!  I really do appreciate what a time consuming job it is and difficult choice I have to make.

I would be lying if I said I was not afraid or hesitant to make such an important decision.

My friend, Nick, the current squadron commander, has been asking me to think about it for a couple of years now.  I have kept putting it off, claiming it would take to much time away from my twins.  But now I am thinking that if I am going to do this I better start before my kids join.

Add to this the fact that I have recently joined our wing's AE staff.  (I am working on my masters rating in Aerospace Education.)

One of the hardest parts of my decision now is that I would be leaving my current squadron which I absolutely love.  I have been there for over 12 years.  Even though I know I would still be working with them a lot and that my husband will remain there.

Like many of us I am basically addicted to CAP.  There is always more to learn if you are willing.  Fortunately I still want to learn more which is why I have to grow and move on.

[biZarre]

WICAPMOM - Hello from a long lost former WI cadet / senior!  It has been a long time, but it is good to hear that your still addi... erm... active. 

Just a quick note of encouragement in your decision to possibly switch squadrons.  I was in a similar situation up here in MN, and decided to take the leap. 

After moving to MN, I joined a struggling unit that was close to closing it's doors.  They had just got a new squadron cc, and were looking for a deputy for cadets.  Thankfully I fit the bill.  We were able to get the cadet program stable, and in a few years with lots of help from all the squadron(and a awesome squa CC) we grew into one of the powerhouses of the wing. 
 
Then I was asked to take command, but in a different squadron.  I did not know anyone in the new squadron, and was following a commander who had not been very active.

Did I make the jump?  Yes.  Was it worth it? Yes!  My 3 years (oh my.. its been that long) as a squ cc have taught me a great deal about both CAP and myself.  It's a continuation of all those leadership classes from the cadet program, and senior professional development.   In a way, its like being on an actual mission, where you finally get to use all those skills that you've been practicing. 
It was a little strange to be the commander of a unit where I was the newest person there, but thankfully the squadron accepted the change, and were able to move forward. 
My old squadron is still going strong, and I've been able to use my contacts between the squadrons to help plan joint projects.    I would think being in Squ 12 would put you in a great situation to know your resources around the wing. 

Best wishes in your decision.  I know I was worried after taking command, but it's been a very rewarding experience.   

[WICAPMOM]

"Doug Kilian" now there's a name I have not heard in a while.  Good to hear from you.  I hope all is well in your world!  I don't think that I have seen you since the 1990's.  I think I saw you last at 1991 encampment when I was the squadron x/o for squadron 1, just before I became a senior.

Just so everyone knows... I have accepted the Squadron Commander position.  I am not sure when we will do the change of command.  First I have to transfer squadrons from 12 to 5.

[Dan]

Congrats, Major!

Best wishes.

[WICAPMOM]

Thank you!

[Pylon]

"Doug Kilian" now there's a name I have not heard in a while.  Good to hear from you.  I hope all is well in your world!  I don't think that I have seen you since the 1990's.  I think I saw you last at 1991 encampment when I was the squadron x/o for squadron 1, just before I became a senior.

Just so everyone knows... I have accepted the Squadron Commander position.  I am not sure when we will do the change of command.  First I have to transfer squadrons from 12 to 5.

Indeed, the best of luck and good wishes to you!   Hopefully we can be your behind-the-scenes support group. 

[John Bryan]

1st I know CAP officers do not meet the same standard as AF or other DOD officers.

Having said that I sometimes wonder if we had a educational requirement (BS / BA Degree) for our officers and some type of commission course if we could have the same status as a uniformed service. Notice I say uniformed not military. I think it is noteworthy there are 7 uniformed services, only 5 are military yet they all wear uniforms, have standards and serve the country.

I have a friend who is a LT in the USPHS and I believe his comissioning course was a week long (kind of like staff college). He has a CAC card and the same status as a naval officer, in fact he is confused for a naval officer a lot. DOD sticker on his car. Full AAFES or Naval exchange service use.

My point is we could increase our status without being a military member if we raise our standards.

Just some thoughts...........

[arajca]

Such a discussion is going on in Cadetstuff in the General Discussion forum.

[BillB]

General Discussion Forum??   Where is that on Cadetstuff, I don't show it?

[MIKE]

General Discussion Forum??   Where is that on Cadetstuff, I don't show it?

Direct link to the thread in question:

http://forums.cadetstuff.org/viewtopic.php?t=3780