NHQ - Press Release Explaining US Civil Air Patrol

Started by sardak, June 13, 2007, 08:54:58 PM

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ColonelJack

Quote from: RiverAux on July 02, 2007, 02:26:43 AM
I'm not wearing the tapes and don't plan to and will not be using the written form in any of my CAP work.  I'm not quite a corporate officer so beyond that there isn't much I can do about it except talk about it here. 

Until, of course, your BDUs/BBDUs are no longer serviceable or you purchase new ones, at which time you'll order new tapes -- and guess what?  They'll say "U.S. Civil Air Patrol."  And you'll either wear them or you won't, but if you don't you'll be setting the wrong example to those who might look up to you -- the example of picking and choosing which regs/directives you'll follow and which you won't.

As for using the phrase in writing, well, nobody's expecting anyone to do that, as far as I know.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

SARMedTech

Quote from: RiverAux on July 02, 2007, 02:26:43 AM
I'm not wearing the tapes and don't plan to and will not be using the written form in any of my CAP work.  I'm not quite a corporate officer so beyond that there isn't much I can do about it except talk about it here. 



So you wont wear them after the mandatory wear date and thereby chose to ignore those parts of the regulations which do not suit your taste without going through proper channels to register your complaint about this matter or find out how others feel about it. How could you? Whats next? Will Emergency Services fail? Will the Hawaii Wing be sold to the Japanese? Will our ground teams wander aimlessly in the woods as they do their job? Will there be gremlins in our engines? How could you? How could you think of taking this stance and making this decision without checking with the entire membership and adhering to the bylaws and constitution of the organization to which you claim to be so loyal? 

Sound familiar?
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

RiverAux

Boy, you guys sure can jump to a lot of conclusions real, real fast.
1.  If they change the Constitution and Bylaws, I still won't like the idea, but at least they will have done things the right way.

2.  Did I SAY I was going to wear the CAP tapes past the mandatory wear dates for the new ones? 

3.  If they change the CAP Constitution, I will switch to the new tapes when required to do so by CAP regulations.  If they don't bother to change the CAP Constitution, I just won't wear BDUs.  I've got other things I can do on missions that don't require me to participate in their violation of the constitution. 

And yes, it has been strongly suggested that "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" be used in all CAP news releases. 

SARMedTech

So you are going to remove yourself from all operations which require the wear of BDUs. Hmmm. Do you think that will show them? Do you think that will put an end to this heinous abuse of power? Just out of curiosity, how many letters have you written to NHQ about your concerns that the change of the name tape subverts the very fabric of CAP? Im guessing that number is somewhere between zero and none. Come on. Do you really lay awake at night, concerned about the overthrow of CAP by those who would make miniscule changes that no one but the membership will notice? Do you ACTUALLY and HONESTLY think this is the beginning of the end of CAP as we know it? Im sorry. I know we are supposed to be nice, and kind and decorous in our public interactions with each other per the recent letter from MG Pineda, but I just have to say, lest my head explode: Get over it! Perhaps if your priorities are on the use of letters on a uniform and not for what operation that uniform will be worn then perhaps it is best if you remove yourself from operations involving the wear of the BDU.  You say that this change reflects flagrant disregard for the CAP Constitution. I say that your refusal to wear a uniform article which is now mandatory wear reflects your flagrant lack of commitment to the spirit of the Civil Air Patrol.
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

Eagle400

Don't do it, RiverAux.  By refusing to wear the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes past the deadline, you're no better than general Pineda and every member of the BoG and NEC who incorrectly changed the name of CAP. 

We agree on most things.  I think we can agree on this, too.   

DeputyDog

Quote from: SARMedTech on July 02, 2007, 03:29:26 AM
I say that your refusal to wear a uniform article which is now mandatory wear reflects your flagrant lack of commitment to the spirit of the Civil Air Patrol.

You need to back off of him and recollect yourself. You have no idea who he is. How long have you been in CAP? A few months? RiverAux has been in for years (maybe decades).

The lack of the commitment to the spirit of the CAP in this thread is on your part. When you have served a fourth of the time that RiverAux has served, then you may tactfully tell someone that they "lack the spirit". Until then, you will show RiverAux and others the respect they deserve as long serving members of CAP.

On a side note...it is not mandatory for wear until the mandatory wear date.

My apologies to the rest of the forum...it really floored me that he said that.

Moderator: Any chance for a lock?

Major Carrales

Quote from: DeputyDog on July 02, 2007, 04:09:59 AM
Moderator: Any chance for a lock?

Hold on there, you want them to lock the thread for this...but all all the innuendo and allegation of impropriety all over the forum lacks comment.

He didn't know...leave it at that.

However, I will agree, this thread should be locked in that it has really played out and there is nearly an identical one like it.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454


Major Carrales

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

SARMedTech

I did know that there is a mandatory wear date and that that date has not yet past. You can clearly see this if you read my other posts completely and carefully. The mistake was an error in wording, not one of knowledge.
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

Pumbaa

#70
QuoteWill the Hawaii Wing be sold to the Japanese?

Hawaii Wing is for sale?  How much to buy it? I hate winters in New York!


SARMedTech

Fuzzy-

I know neither one of the those gentlemen is supposed to be me, because as you know, I have a goatee. And you owe me a keyboard.
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

Eagle400

Quote from: ColonelJackOkay, fine ... they're hypocrites.  Total hypocrites.  They all say one thing and then do another. 
You still haven't answered my question.

Why is this issue so important to you?

Because the precedent that has been set by general Pineda, the BoG, and NEC's incorrect renaming of CAP is a horrible one and now any member can look at these people and say, "Well, they broke regulations, I guess I can too!"

Just because I'm not a member anymore doesn't mean I don't have a voice.  You're not a member, and you have a voice, don't you? 

Perhaps people from national are looking at this page, and I hope they are because I want them to know exactly how I feel.  This is regardless of whether or not I can do anything about it.  In fact, if I were a member now, I'd feel pretty reluctant to try to effect any change because general Pineda likes to 2b members he doesn't agree with.

I predict someday CAP will have a more open-minded National Commander who actually cares about the people in the organization and is open to feedback.  All good things in time.

Quote from: ColonelJackYou aren't a member, and by your own words won't be one for 16 months.

That's correct, Lt Col Bagley.  Come to think of it, you aren't a member, either.  That pendelum swings both ways in this case.

Quote from: ColonelJackIt can't be because you don't want to buy new tapes for your BDUs.

You are correct, sir.  I want to get my degree before rejoining CAP.  By then, I'll have more money to sustain a membership in CAP and buy all the stuff I need.

Quote from: ColonelJackI'm really intrigued why the addition of "U.S." to "Civil Air Patrol" has caused you to become so bent out of shape.

It's not the addition of "U.S." to Civil Air Patrol that has caused me to become so bent out of shape.  It's the way in which it was done.  If there was ever a thing National did totally bassackwards, this is it.

Quote from: ColonelJackEither I don't get it or you're over-reacting big time here.  If it's the first, please explain to me your reasons -- I would really like to know.  And if it's the second, well ... use your own judgment.

Jack

I think you don't get it, sir (or maybe you do by now, I don't know).  You seem to think it is the inclusion of "U.S." in Civil Air Patrol that makes me mad.  It's not.  It's the way in which it was brought about.  No change to the U.S.C. (which requires a vote, among other things), no change to the CAP Constitution and Bylaws, just an arbitrary decision to change the name of the organization. 

They just don't get it.  FIRST you change the documents to reflect a change, THEN you change the name of the organization.  None of this make a change first and then do the correct procedure as an afterthought.     

RiverAux

QuoteSo you are going to remove yourself from all operations which require the wear of BDUs.
Yes, and it isn't really that big a deal.  I've been primarily working at the mission base for a while anyway. 

QuoteDo you think that will show them? Do you think that will put an end to this heinous abuse of power?

No, not at all and I didnt say it would.  But, personal integrity means something to me. 

QuoteJust out of curiosity, how many letters have you written to NHQ about your concerns that the change of the name tape subverts the very fabric of CAP?
None, chain of command also means something to me. 

QuoteYou say that this change reflects flagrant disregard for the CAP Constitution. I say that your refusal to wear a uniform article which is now mandatory wear reflects your flagrant lack of commitment to the spirit of the Civil Air Patrol.
There is no requirement at all that I or any other CAP member wear the BDU uniform or participate in activities in which it is the assigned uniform.  Why do you care if I let my already low participation in ground team activities drop off and devote more time to parts of the mission where I am actually more useful?  I'm not asking you to do anything. 


ColonelJack

Wow.

Okay, let's see here ... "They broke regulations, so I can too."  I don't want to be around when some CAP officer or cadet uses that as their excuse for doing something against regulations.  

The difference between us, 12211985, is that I spent a long time in and retired.  You didn't.  But that's a peeing contest, and I don't want to play.  Both of us can rejoin whenever we want, so let's leave that one alone.

If people from National are looking at this page, they see how you feel.  They see how I feel.  They see how we all feel.  And chances are, they don't give a flip.  They do what they do.  And I'd be interested in seeing how you -- or any member -- can effect change in the first place.  Your only option is voting with your feet, and like me, you're not a member now so you can't even do that.

I share your prediction about future National CCs.  In fact, if things go as they currently are going, the next CC will be a person who cares about CAP and the membership.  Whether General Courter will be open to feedback remains to be seen, but even if she is, I would suggest you remember one thing:  once they make up their minds on this or any other issue, that's it, and you'd be best advised to drop the subject.  Especially after you re-join.  As Heinlein says, "The captain is right, even when he's wrong."

Thank you for answering my question.  Your beef is with the way the deed was done, not the deed itself.  But that makes me wonder -- the wholesale changes of wing and region commanders on what appears to be a whim ... the introduction of a new uniform that may have been an end-run around AF's prohibition of metal rank and yet has become very popular with many officers ... removal of a national vice commander under questionable circumstances ... more silliness than one can shake a stick at ... and you pick this to scream about?  I find myself intrigued again, but we can spare everyone else the rest of this and take it to PM if you prefer.

I am not picking on you, and if it seems that I am, I apologize.  I just think that, as someone out there has said, one needs to choose one's battles wisely.   Back in ROTC in high school, my old instructor (1SG Burke) had a great line that I use today.  "Is this the hill you want to die on?"  You and I (and everyone else) can weigh invective at each other until the cows come home, and you know what?  New BDU tapes are still going to say "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" because the deed is done and only the BoG or the next National CC can undo it.  Since both the BoG and the current CV seem to have approved the change, it isn't likely to happen then, either.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

JohnKachenmeister

I'm going crazy here.

The propriety of the method of referring to us as the U.S. Civil Air Patrol is of no consequence.  None.  Nada.  Nichts.  Nottathang.  

What IS of consequence is that use of the term virtually implies that we are a stand-alone paramilitary force.  We talk of the U.S. Air Force, not the U.S. Air Combat Command.  

If such is the vision of the National Commander and National Board, TELL US!  It is wrong t try to slip a monumental organization change in through the back door.  If such is not the vision of the National Commander, then I think the decision was an incorrect one, but I can live with it.

But the explanation provided in the press release posed more questions than it answered.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

QuoteOkay, let's see here ... "They broke regulations, so I can too."  I don't want to be around when some CAP officer or cadet uses that as their excuse for doing something against regulations. 

Where did he advocate breaking regulations?  He was supporting my right to chose not to wear a uniform that I did not want to wear.  That is perfectly within regulations. 

RiverAux

By the way although there seems to be a fair contingent of people in this thread who passionately don't care about the change or like it, let me remind you that in the  poll on this subject, 75/100 people did not like the change.   

ColonelJack

Quote from: RiverAux on July 02, 2007, 01:19:20 PM
QuoteOkay, let's see here ... "They broke regulations, so I can too."  I don't want to be around when some CAP officer or cadet uses that as their excuse for doing something against regulations. 

Where did he advocate breaking regulations?  He was supporting my right to chose not to wear a uniform that I did not want to wear.  That is perfectly within regulations. 

When he said this:

"Because the precedent that has been set by general Pineda, the BoG, and NEC's incorrect renaming of CAP is a horrible one and now any member can look at these people and say, "Well, they broke regulations, I guess I can too!""

I have no issue with you not wanting to wear BDUs/BBDUs.  I'm no big fan of those uniforms either, preferring (when I was active in CAP) to do my work in an office setting.  For missions, I had a flight suit.  For work, I wore blues -- at least until I couldn't any more due to weight issues, which is why I like the corporate uniforms.

I support the individual choice to wear the uniform that makes you happy (and, of course, conforms with regulations).  I just don't think "they did it so I can do it" is a good answer.

My opinion, of course.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

ColonelJack

Quote from: RiverAux on July 02, 2007, 01:21:17 PM
By the way although there seems to be a fair contingent of people in this thread who passionately don't care about the change or like it, let me remind you that in the  poll on this subject, 75/100 people did not like the change.   

You're right.  And even if 100 out of 100 didn't like the change, it won't matter.

The change is made.

We can argue this until we're blue in the face, but it won't matter.

For what it may be worth, I do understand the feelings behind those who weigh against the change to U.S. Civil Air Patrol.  I'm not the biggest fan of the idea either.  And I understand those who say it was done the wrong way, or done in an end run, or however they wish to put it.  Frankly, they're right.

But the deed is done.  Until the change is rescinded, it's "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" no matter what we as individual members (or retired members) think.

And no amount of complaining, bellyaching, growling, cussing, or discussion is going to change that.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia