NCO Duty Positions and Responsibilities

[TheSkyHornet]

Might be an interesting idea to move former cadet NCOs over to CAP NCO grades, like C/SSgt and C/TSgt as E-5s, C/MSgt through C/CMSgt as E-6s, rather than making them SMWOGs since I believe they need to be a C/2d Lt to make SM/FO. Then again, this would still require the duties to be laid out for NCOs, which does seem to be rolling in, albeit slowly.

Just a thought.

[winterg]

Sorry to be a former member buttinsky, really.

If I were given the opportunity to rejoin CAP as an enlisted man, I would do so.  I left CAP largely over the bullcrackie and politics and pissing contests of who gets to be promoted beyond Captain, and was ultimately told that I had made too many enemies (nothing new; a slight consequence of having your back to the wall and becoming somewhat unpleasant as a result).

Unfortunately, my ANG service does not allow me to rejoin at my last rank.

OK, thanks.

  Yes it does.   It is not in the regs yet but it is active.  Any prior services or active service enlisted E-1 through E-4 (AB-SrA, Pvt to Specialist) are given an initial appointment to SSgt.

So come back to the dark side CyBorg.

Has this been posted anywhere or is it planned to be posted?

And what if someone left active duty as a Senior Airman and afterward completed mutiple PD levels in CAP? Do they start at SSgt or does CAP progression factor into initial NCO appointment?

[Storm Chaser]

Sorry to be a former member buttinsky, really.

If I were given the opportunity to rejoin CAP as an enlisted man, I would do so.  I left CAP largely over the bullcrackie and politics and pissing contests of who gets to be promoted beyond Captain, and was ultimately told that I had made too many enemies (nothing new; a slight consequence of having your back to the wall and becoming somewhat unpleasant as a result).

Unfortunately, my ANG service does not allow me to rejoin at my last rank.

OK, thanks.

  Yes it does.   It is not in the regs yet but it is active.  Any prior services or active service enlisted E-1 through E-4 (AB-SrA, Pvt to Specialist) are given an initial appointment to SSgt.

So come back to the dark side CyBorg.

If it's not in the regs, it's just vaporware. Besides, why would we want to do that? One thing is to promote a former E-4 to SSgt, and another is to appoint an E-1, E-2 or E-3 to an NCO grade. It doesn't make sense, especially when civilians, regardless of education, training and experience, are not afforded the same opportunity.

Instead of spending time figuring out how to promote NCOs, why not focus that effort into figuring out what it is that NCOs are suppose to do in CAP? What's the real purpose of the NCO Corps beyond allowing some members to wear stripes? Where do they fit in the organization?

[TheSkyHornet]

Sorry to be a former member buttinsky, really.

If I were given the opportunity to rejoin CAP as an enlisted man, I would do so.  I left CAP largely over the bullcrackie and politics and pissing contests of who gets to be promoted beyond Captain, and was ultimately told that I had made too many enemies (nothing new; a slight consequence of having your back to the wall and becoming somewhat unpleasant as a result).

Unfortunately, my ANG service does not allow me to rejoin at my last rank.

OK, thanks.

  Yes it does.   It is not in the regs yet but it is active.  Any prior services or active service enlisted E-1 through E-4 (AB-SrA, Pvt to Specialist) are given an initial appointment to SSgt.

So come back to the dark side CyBorg.

Has this been posted anywhere or is it planned to be posted?

And what if someone left active duty as a Senior Airman and afterward completed mutiple PD levels in CAP? Do they start at SSgt or does CAP progression factor into initial NCO appointment?

This.

How is it that there's a process supposedly in place for assigning prior service to be CAP NCOs but it is not written in the regulations? As far as I see it, if it's not written anywhere, it doesn't exist, even if it's being implemented. Where's the documentation to support that? I'm not trying to nitpick here. It just seems that there is this continual shortcoming in CAP when it comes to publishing regulations that people are expect to abide by. 

Sorry to be a former member buttinsky, really.

If I were given the opportunity to rejoin CAP as an enlisted man, I would do so.  I left CAP largely over the bullcrackie and politics and pissing contests of who gets to be promoted beyond Captain, and was ultimately told that I had made too many enemies (nothing new; a slight consequence of having your back to the wall and becoming somewhat unpleasant as a result).

Unfortunately, my ANG service does not allow me to rejoin at my last rank.

OK, thanks.

  Yes it does.   It is not in the regs yet but it is active.  Any prior services or active service enlisted E-1 through E-4 (AB-SrA, Pvt to Specialist) are given an initial appointment to SSgt.

So come back to the dark side CyBorg.

If it's not in the regs, it's just vaporware. Besides, why would we want to do that? One thing is to promote a former E-4 to SSgt, and another is to appoint an E-1, E-2 or E-3 to an NCO grade. It doesn't make sense, especially when civilians, regardless of education, training and experience, are not afforded the same opportunity.

Instead of spending time figuring out how to promote NCOs, why not focus that effort into figuring out what it is that NCOs are suppose to do in CAP? What's the real purpose of the NCO Corps beyond allowing some members to wear stripes? Where do they fit in the organization?

This was posted as I was responding. Really liked this one.

[LSThiker]

rather than making them SMWOGs since I believe they need to be a C/2d Lt to make SM/FO.

To go directly to FO, then yes the cadet will need to be 18-20 and have earned the Mitchell.  Otherwise, they will hang out at SM for 3 months, then be promoted to FO.  But then again, since the FO ranks are not tracked by NHQ and the promotion authority is the SQ/CC, that 3 month wait time gets ignored at times. 

[TheSkyHornet]

rather than making them SMWOGs since I believe they need to be a C/2d Lt to make SM/FO.

To go directly to FO, then yes the cadet will need to be 18-20 and have earned the Mitchell.  Otherwise, they will hang out at SM for 3 months, then be promoted to FO.  But then again, since the FO ranks are not tracked by NHQ and the promotion authority is the SQ/CC, that 3 month wait time gets ignored at times.

Truth.

Who's the authority for SM/NCO grades anyway? Are Staff Sergeants under NHQ/Wing authorization? I don't get close to the senior member progression system much, so that area is a little over my head.

[MSG Mac]

CAPR 35-5

[TheSkyHornet]

CAPR 35-5

Ah, I was reading the wrong section. I saw Section F(6-#). What I was looking for what is 1-5.

Although I did spot two subsections "i" divided by Figure 1. 

[lordmonar]

Has this been posted anywhere or is it planned to be posted?

And what if someone left active duty as a Senior Airman and afterward completed mutiple PD levels in CAP? Do they start at SSgt or does CAP progression factor into initial NCO appointment?

No it is not posted any where that I know of.   It is going to be added to the next 35-5.   There are a whole bunch of changes that are either approved or waiting for approval/final tweaking that are going to be sent to the promotion OPRs.

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

[lordmonar]

If it's not in the regs, it's just vaporware.

Yes, I agree with that statement to a point.   But as it has been pointed out CAP is very slow in getting changes to regs out to the field.

Besides, why would we want to do that? One thing is to promote a former E-4 to SSgt, and another is to appoint an E-1, E-2 or E-3 to an NCO grade. It doesn't make sense,.

The reasoning behind it came up when an AD SrA wanted to join CAP as an enlisted person.   The current regs would have required him to join as a SMWOG promote to 2d Lt at six months....and then a year or so down the road (once he put on SSgt) convert over to SSgt.   So it was decided by the Command Chief that we should use some common sense and just let him be appointed a CAP SSgt.    That seemed to be the smartest thing to do.   Down the road we may decided to ask the USAF to allow us to have CAP enlisted ranks.

especially when civilians, regardless of education, training and experience, are not afforded the same opportunity.

Non prior service can't be a NCO at all......ergo your argument is moot.   And what CAP does on the officer side has nothing to do what CAP does on the NCO side.    And I would like to point out that CAP does give advanced grade appointments to civilians based on education, training and experinces (CFIs, Teachers, Doctors, CPAs, Etc.)

Instead of spending time figuring out how to promote NCOs, why not focus that effort into figuring out what it is that NCOs are suppose to do in CAP? What's the real purpose of the NCO Corps beyond allowing some members to wear stripes? Where do they fit in the organization?

We are doing both.  We in fact have done so.   Not to your liking to be sure....but there you go.

[lordmonar]

On the whole slow boat thing about policy changes and promotion changes....I agree with all of you.  CAP has been doing a poor job of getting the word our and getting the policy decisions that have been made into the regs.

But you can only do so much.   We got our changes to the OPRs for the appropriate regulations and we got to wait on those guys to do their jobs.

It is not really a problem with the NCO program but a problem with CAP bureaucracy as a whole.

[Storm Chaser]

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

[lordmonar]

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

So..... an E-1 wants to join CAP....we make him a 2d Lt.  Over the said E-5 SSgt?  Then, when said E-1 puts on E-5 he can change down to CAP SSgt.  That does not make much sense either.   We would like to just let him join as a AB and move up the ranks...but we don't have enlisted ranks just NCO ranks.  It one of the things we are looking at but it is a back burner thing right now as it requires USAF approval. 

[RogueLeader]

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

I'm going to guess that the same logic that allows non-military to become a CAP 2d Lt in 6 months with just a quick Level 1 course, and no real Leadership training like the Real Military ^(tm) does.

[Storm Chaser]

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

So..... an E-1 wants to join CAP....we make him a 2d Lt.  Over the said E-5 SSgt?  Then, when said E-1 puts on E-5 he can change down to CAP SSgt.  That does not make much sense either.

I agree; it doesn't make much sense either. That said, even in the military, a SSgt have more experience than a 2d Lt and there's a different level of expectation. NCOs are the backbone of the military because they have the experience and training to make things happen. I guess it's going to be different in CAP.

We would like to just let him join as a AB and move up the ranks...but we don't have enlisted ranks just NCO ranks.  It one of the things we are looking at but it is a back burner thing right now as it requires USAF approval.

And the Air Force doesn't have to approve promoting E-1s and E-2s to CAP SSgt? That's odd. I hope National is not handling the NCO program the same way they handled the CSU.

[Storm Chaser]

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

I'm going to guess that the same logic that allows non-military to become a CAP 2d Lt in 6 months with just a quick Level 1 course, and no real Leadership training like the Real Military ^(tm) does.

I've always thought it was odd that someone with no experience, education or training can become a CAP 2d Lt after 6 months with only Level 1. We should, as a minimum, require Officer Basic Course (OBC) for promotion to 2d Lt.

[lordmonar]

I guess it's going to be different in CAP.

Now you are just trolling.   

And the Air Force doesn't have to approve promoting E-1s and E-2s to CAP SSgt? That's odd. I hope National is not handling the NCO program the same way they handled the CSU.

Nope.   The USAF has to approve the use of the rank....but they let us decide how to appoint/promote people to that rank.

And yes....since there is no one trying to do an end run around the USAF's wishes.....there is no danger of pissing off the USAF like HWSNBN did with the CSU.

[TheSkyHornet]

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

I'm going to guess that the same logic that allows non-military to become a CAP 2d Lt in 6 months with just a quick Level 1 course, and no real Leadership training like the Real Military ^(tm) does.

Personally, I'll agree. Making someone a CAP officer isn't necessarily an appropriate jump for someone who's been in the organization for 6 months and had very little input (as many members have when they first join). A lot of senior members get thrown into some pretty big areas of responsibility early on, but many others rank up and don't have a lot of experience. Albeit, your grade in CAP doesn't really reflect your qualifications or expertise.

Why are instrument-rated pilots able to become First Lieutenants after completing their Level 1? What knowledge did they bring to CAP with them, especially if they aren't even a CAP pilot or working in air operations?

One of those things is also the inclusion of E1-E4 ranks to the Enlisted/CAP Rank initial Appointment Matrix.

What's the justification for appointing a brand new E-1 to the CAP grade of SSgt, yet an E-5 with Airman Leadership School (or equivalent), 5 or 7 Level, supervisory experience, and several years time-in-service gets the same appointment to SSgt?

So..... an E-1 wants to join CAP....we make him a 2d Lt.  Over the said E-5 SSgt?  Then, when said E-1 puts on E-5 he can change down to CAP SSgt.  That does not make much sense either.

I agree; it doesn't make much sense either. That said, even in the military, a SSgt have more experience than a 2d Lt and there's a different level of expectation. NCOs are the backbone of the military because they have the experience and training to make things happen. I guess it's going to be different in CAP.

We would like to just let him join as a AB and move up the ranks...but we don't have enlisted ranks just NCO ranks.  It one of the things we are looking at but it is a back burner thing right now as it requires USAF approval.

And the Air Force doesn't have to approve promoting E-1s and E-2s to CAP SSgt? That's odd. I hope National is not handling the NCO program the same way they handled the CSU.

More experience, perhaps, but not necessarily more training. There's a lot that goes into officer training once someone completed ROTC, OCS, ODS, what have you from any branch. It really depends on each individual person. But the military is much more rigorous when it comes to identifying their training criteria. There will always be stuff officers know that enlisted members don't, and there will always be stuff that enlisted members know but officers don't know jack about, even when someone thinks they should (and probably should).

But I agree with the basis of your point---Where are new members starting off, and where does their training take them? Officers and NCOs have different roles and require different training. Certain backgrounds don't necessarily make you eligible to become an officer nor NCO. CAP tends to be very laid back in a lot of regards, especially in training. That's the burden of being a low-cost volunteer membership organization. On one hand you get some lower quality results than what you would expect of active duty, but on the other hand, we can beef up the volunteer numbers and spread the workload much farther out because we don't require a strict, structured organization of very specific roles and job descriptions in every area we operate.

There are a lot of loose ends that allow us to be much more flexible. It can be a good or bad thing. The issue we have with making improvements is that we need to be cautious so we don't limit ourselves to a smaller number of volunteers while at the same time knowing we are building up higher quality. The fact that we don't have contracts means we can't dictate everything and go with the "we don't care who we please and who we piss off at times" retention program. We need to tread carefully in our retention program because we have the risk of someone walking away. We can say "let them walk" for a while...until you're out of members.

Is there a role for CAP NCOs? I believe there is. But I think it would require a major restructuring of CAP and the training programs across the board. It takes a long time to get these changes implemented and make them work, all while making sure the people affected understand those changes and don't run off because they think NHQ is just "messing things up as always," which I don't agree is the case. NHQ tries. But it's very hard to satisfy everyone and still be most efficient.

[lordmonar]

A lot of this points to my personal idea (that is, it is not a goal or task for the NCO committee) about changing the way people join CAP.

If I were god for a day.....

A person off the street with no military expiernce, no advanced degree, no advanced skills, would join up an Airman Basic.
Level I and six months in.....they get promoted to Amn.
10 months TIG and an Apprentice  rating (new name for tech rating) in a specialty tract they can be promoted to A1C.
20 months TIG and 36 months time in service they can be promoted to SrA.

A person coming into CAP with advanced degrees, skills, etc that would normally be associated with officer ranks would follow the same promotion scheme except they would wear Flight Officer Stripes. 

Join as a Basic Flight Officer
Six Months and Level I....Flight Officer
10 months TOG and an Apprentice rating.....Flight Officer First Class
20 months TIG and 36 Time in service they would be Senior Flight Officer.

At the the three year mark.  SrA and SFOs with a degree (say an Associates or 60 hours of college credit) could opt to go to the Officer Basic Course (sort of like an RSC type course) and then at the four year mark they can be promoted to 2d Lt.

The SrA with out degrees can go to the NCO basic course (a week long RSC type course) and at the four year mark they can be promoted to SSgt.

Both officer and NCO promotions from that point of will be driven by PD progression and performance of duties at appropriate levels of responsibilities.    That is no one get promoted beyond capt with having performed staff or command duties outside of the squadron.  Same story with the NCOs.

Those people who were SFOs but do not have degrees (say a pilot who does not have a degree) they can promote up the chain as well as Chief Flight Officers (CFO-1, CFO-2, CFO-3)

That's my idea of how things should be.   

Once again....this is not the official policy/goal/stance of CAP or the NCO committee.....just my own little pipe dream.

[Storm Chaser]

Your personal idea actually makes more sense than some of the aspects of the official NCO program.