Discrimination or Not? Excluded after asking for policy changes to be published

[PilotMan]

Hi all, 

Okay..... here's what happened.  In a meeting a time ago there was a subject that was brought to light that in my opinion involved the making of a new policy.  I very simply asked that that policy be written and posted so as to make sure that we follow the policy to the "T".  We don't want any misunderstandings and have anybody written up.

I showed up to a meeting to find out that there was an exercise that I was intentionally excluded from in reprisal to asking for written policy as mentioned.

I questioned the individual and was told that, "You were too busy to attend the exercise"  Which of course I was not too busy and was available.

In my opinion, this was VINDICTIVE, DISCRIMINATORY,  and in RETALIATION.


First Question:   Does non-documented policy stand up?

Second Questions:  Is instant policy making permitted by CAP?

Third Question:  Was this retaliatory discrimination?     



Almost 5 years of dedication and decoration and I find myself wanting to quit. 
   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are channels for reporting discrimination.

However - take it from me - it is hard as heck to prove.

Reprisal behaviour from a pissed-off CC may not necessarily be discrimination...it's a crock, but in many cases it falls under "commander's privilege."  BTDT.

[Eclipse]

I showed up to a meeting to find out that there was an exercise that I was intentionally excluded from in reprisal to asking for written policy as mentioned.

And you know this how, exactly?

First Question:   Does non-documented policy stand up?

Stand up to what?  If a Commander tells you to do something within his AOR, and that something doesn't violate
CAP regulations, you do it, or you vote with your feet.  Those are the only choices.

Second Questions:  Is instant policy making permitted by CAP?

If a Commander tells you to do something within his AOR, and that something doesn't violate
CAP regulations, you do it, or you vote with your feet.  Those are the only choices.

Third Question:  Was this retaliatory discrimination? 

As provided?   No.  Not even close.
Are you in a protected class and were excluded specifically because of something related to that class?

Not being told about an activity is not discrimination, whether you wanted to be there or not.

Based only on what is posted here, it sounds like you didn't get your way and were being a PITA,
if that's the case, what do you expect?   Do you think volunteers with a choice are going to be
overly receptive to people hassling them, likely about something trivial?

[Tim Medeiros]

If you truly and honestly feel that this is a valid complaint here are some things to read and a form to fill out.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_002_D2CD7C6F4C14A.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R123_002_3B7E17A8333CE.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/capf030_790694C9323B9.doc (word version)
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F030_ECFA02C6996C0.pdf (pdf version)

Q1: Depends, what is the policy?  Is the policy "uniforms are x on the first meeting and y on the others?" doesn't really need to be in writing, but it would be nice
Q2: Yes, I've done this a few times.  The second I learned of an issue I made a policy to mitigate the risks, made it verbal to everyone until it could be written down in either email or memo (went with both)
Q3: On what basis do you feel you were discriminated against?  Your options, as laid out in CAPR 36-1 (and its source documents) are race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin or disability.

In regards to reprisal, I'll defer to our resident IG in regards to the process for that.

[RiverAux]

I don't see where you have suffered any harm because of this incident. 

There is no requirement that every policy be in written format. 

[JeffDG]

People have completely stripped the word "discrimination" of it's proper meaning.  Discrimination is something we all do every day.  It's the act of choosing between alternatives.

If I choose to have a salad instead of a sandwich for lunch, I'm discriminating.  If I'm the Planning Section Chief and I choose to give Bob the coveted Resource Unit Lead job for a SAREX instead of Doug (because, face it, Bob's the smarter Hoser), I'm discriminating.

All of these things are proper and normal.

What people have come to the conclusion of is that discrimination is evil.  There are specific grounds of discrimination that we have, via the processes of regulation and the application of federal, state and local law, that have been declared off-limits.  If I choose Archie instead of Betty for the Situation Unit Lead job (also highly coveted by the way) because I don't think women can keep all the different aspects of the mission straight, then I'm discriminating based upon gender, and that's verboten.  If I make the same decision because Betty's writing on the status board is completely indecipherable, then I've discriminated based on a completely valid basis.

In context here, we're talking about potential retaliation.  First, I see no indication that a complaint was filed with the IG about the original issue of not putting the policy in writing.  Such a complaint would trigger whistle-blower protections.  If the commander simply thinks you're difficult to work with, he's encouraged, but not obligated, to try and deal with that.  It's not the basis of a complaint should he choose not to do so.

[a2capt]

Discrimination .. perhaps. As explained. Rule breaker? Most likely not even close.

Politics.. probably.

Just sit back .. and have a drink.. make a note of it..

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Example

Request / Order: CC "I'm leaving early to ... Last one out lock the front door to the squadron."

Policy: The front door of the squadron was left unlocked last week. Last Senior Member to leave is responsible to lock the doors.

The policy is a long term way of doing things. My recommendation would be to put it in writing as it applies to the members not at the meeting and new members in the future.

If the issue is serious then having it in writing makes more sense. I don't know how serious the policy from the OP was.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One thing I have learnt from the military/CAP is that, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist, and for a commander to make a policy change without doing it in writing is just shooting themselves in the foot.

I have had a couple of commanders who put every policy directive in writing and some who didn't know the meaning of the word, let alone blue or black ink.  You can probably guess who the more effective commanders were.

About all I can see for the OP is to approach the CC, ask to see him/her in private and voice your concerns.

If s/he is any kind of commander, s/he will listen, though not maybe to your satisfaction.

If s/he doesn't listen and blows you off...I have known CC's who were out-and-out jerks, unfortunately.

(JeffDG: I'm sure I'm not the only one who caught your SCTV shtick reference).

[Flying Pig]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with what "discrimination" is.   Maybe they just don't like you.  A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

You asked to have a written policy and now you are kept from participating in activities?  There is either more to the story or you unit is weird.

[MSG Mac]

 How can you have a policy if, it's not available or known to the membership? Write it down and then disseminate to all within the command and if you have a bulletin board-post it. 

[lordmonar]

One thing I have learnt from the military/CAP is that, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist, and for a commander to make a policy change without doing it in writing is just shooting themselves in the foot.

Then you know nothing about either the military or CAP.

Unwritten policy happens all the time.  Not neccessarily good leadership....but it happens....and don't be that guy who fails to meet it and say "I did not know"....sure you aren't going to get an Article 15 over it....but as my TI at Basic Training said....."It will reflect".

[Brad]

Col. Medeiros beat me to it.

You don't know for a fact that you were blocked from the activity because you spoke about a policy position. Sure that's your opinion, but the IG programs deals in tangible facts and evidence to support allegations. If I were the the IG, I would likely dismiss it before it even began the process.

For what it's worth, the CAP definition of discrimination is:

2. Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap). It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no applicant meeting CAP's minimum age requirement will be denied membership in CAP on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap).

To me as an IO, having a difference of opinion does not fit this definition.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Then you know nothing about either the military or CAP.

Unwritten policy happens all the time.  Not neccessarily good leadership....but it happens....and don't be that guy who fails to meet it and say "I did not know"....sure you aren't going to get an Article 15 over it....but as my TI at Basic Training said....."It will reflect".

Thank you for the insult, Master Sergeant...granted, I did not have as long in the ANG as you did in the Air Force, but I have roughly 20 years in CAP, but that is no reason to say that I know nothing about either.

I am only saying what I have learnt in my experience.

Maybe they just don't like you. 

Which can happen; personally, I won't waste my time with any organisation where I know someone doesn't like me and are not professional enough to not let their personal feelings get in the way.  Doors swing both ways.

A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

Or someone not calling them on it when it does counter a CAP policy.  That happens too, often with commanders who have a "tyrannical" mentality.

I am reminded of Groucho Marx' dictum that "I wouldn't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member anyway."

[ZigZag911]

I agree this would almost certainly not result in an IG or discrimination investigation...however, 90% plus of complaints don't lead to an investigation. Nevertheless, a good IG will try to help you resolve the root issue.

You got some good advice -- have a talk with your commander.

If you are not satisfied that you got a fair hearing from the CC (which is not the same thing as getting your way!) then contact the IG or a chaplain, who will begin first of all by trying to help you and your unit CC/staff communicate better.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Unfortunately, it is not, in most cases, against the law and/or discriminatory to be a jerk.

[Al Sayre]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position... 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position...

If the squadron has a chaplain.  I have only been in one (my first) that had a chaplain (and he was a real go-getter; GT and Observer qualified in addition to his Skypilot credentials).  I have seen very, very few units that have been able to attract (and keep) chaplains.

[Brad]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position...

If the squadron has a chaplain.  I have only been in one (my first) that had a chaplain (and he was a real go-getter; GT and Observer qualified in addition to his Skypilot credentials).  I have seen very, very few units that have been able to attract (and keep) chaplains.

My local squadron has a good chaplain. He does local ministry and was previously the Health Services Officer since he's a Paramedic with the county EMS.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position...

If the squadron has a chaplain.  I have only been in one (my first) that had a chaplain (and he was a real go-getter; GT and Observer qualified in addition to his Skypilot credentials).  I have seen very, very few units that have been able to attract (and keep) chaplains.

My local squadron has a good chaplain. He does local ministry and was previously the Health Services Officer since he's a Paramedic with the county EMS.

You're fortunate.