Uniform Changes

[JohnKachenmeister]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

The TPU is about as close as you can get to a RM uniform.  Change it to allow RM badges and ribbons, and we're set.

That is an option, Jason.  My thinking is sometimes out of the box. 

If you accept the goal that it is good to have your entire force in one uniform, and not all of your force can wear the AF uniform, my plan would be to have an AF-like uniform that everyone can wear.  This would have to be, like the TPU, sufficiently different from the AF uniform so that the AF would consider it "Corporate" in nature, but close enough to the AF uniform to reflect our shared traditions, heritage, and battle history.

The TPU is a very good start on this.  But when the AF begins transition to their new uniform, I'm suggesting that we have an opportunity to improve on the concept illustrated by the TPU, be designing a one-uniform-for-all-officers new set of threads.

Just something to think about.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

I was hoping that one of the "Photoshop Geniuses" could post a picture.  I'm computer-literate, but I'm not up to reading "War and Peace" yet!

[BillB]

Retired CAP members can NOT wear any CAP unifoms, Air Force style or Corporate. The National Board decreed this two years ago.

[pixelwonk]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

I was hoping that one of the "Photoshop Geniuses" could post a picture...

Not only no, but hell no.

[Hawk200]

Civil Air Patrol is not the Air Force through. When a member joins, be then an ex Marine Sergeant or an Air Force officer, they work and play by our rules. If the Air Force wants to let their retirees (who, of course, have contributed a lot to the service) wear the uniform regardless of weight standards, thats the Air Force rules. If our regulations say you can't then you can't.

You completely missed the point. Don't worry about it though, it doesn't matter.

The point was that if the Air Force lets retired personnal who are overwight wear the regular uniform, so why shouldn't we?

No, his point is that the Air Force applies a standard to us that they do not apply to their own retirees and to the SDF air elements.

That would be it. Thanks, Kach. Nice to know someone can figure out what I'm thinking.

[jb512]

Retired CAP members can NOT wear any CAP unifoms, Air Force style or Corporate. The National Board decreed this two years ago.

My statement was more for effect.  I didn't know what the current ruling on that was.

[jb512]

Remember, Hawk, (and others) I planned this to be a Corporate uniform.  There HAS to be significant variances from the AF uniform.  Just not so many that we look like we should be singing the songs from "HMS Pinnafore."

As far as the sew-on rockers, one or two are a max nix.  The idea of changing rockers when one turns senior is another hark back to our heritage, when we used to have sew-on insignia to designate CAP membership.  Seniors had the "Pepsi-Cola" patch, and cadets had a blue rectangle reading "Cadet/Civil Air Patrol"

Point taken. I would prefer to keep an Air Force uniform around, I think it's a bad idea to ditch it altogether. There are organizations that aren't even directly affiliated with the various branches of service, or loosely so, that wear uniforms closer to the military. I think we ought to do the same. We do have heritage, but we shouldn't discard our association with the Air Force to bring it back.

I can say that even some branches of service can be confused for each other. I remember the first time I saw a Coastie in uniform. I just thought he was wearing some strange ribbons. If I hadn't noted the second line on his nametag stating "U.S. Coast Guard", I would have been thoroughly confused.

Hawk:

I agree with you.  The right to wear the Air Force uniform was earned in battle and is a part of our tradition.  But with our officer force getting older, it will be getting tougher and tougher for our officers to stay within the 10 percent over basic training entry weight that 39-1 prescribes for wear of the AF uniform.  My proposal would create a similar-to-the-AF-uniform that is sufficiently different to rate classification as a corporate uniform.

The TPU is about as close as you can get to a RM uniform.  Change it to allow RM badges and ribbons, and we're set.

That is an option, Jason.  My thinking is sometimes out of the box. 

If you accept the goal that it is good to have your entire force in one uniform, and not all of your force can wear the AF uniform, my plan would be to have an AF-like uniform that everyone can wear.  This would have to be, like the TPU, sufficiently different from the AF uniform so that the AF would consider it "Corporate" in nature, but close enough to the AF uniform to reflect our shared traditions, heritage, and battle history.

The TPU is a very good start on this.  But when the AF begins transition to their new uniform, I'm suggesting that we have an opportunity to improve on the concept illustrated by the TPU, be designing a one-uniform-for-all-officers new set of threads.

Just something to think about.

I hear ya, and I think that we're about as close as we can get.  People are still going to whine no matter what we come up with, whether it's the person who thinks that taking away the AF uniform leads to further distance from them, or the ones who don't want to wear a hat and shine their shoes.  I happen to agree with you, it's just that we get such a diversity from the small percentage of people who post here alone, it'll be hell to get anyone to progress towards that goal nationwide.  I know, I know... I'm still in the box.  Don't mind me.

With the exception of badges/ribbons/devices, the TPU is a RM uniform with a different colored shirt.  I compare it to the USCG uniform that is a combo between Navy and AF in colors, with CG on the nametag.

I like the idea of the TPU, but the shirt could stand to be an actual color, like you suggested, and use the military cut that some of us have gotten from other sources instead of the tent cut that comes from VG.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Any white aviator shirt is legal, Jason.  You don't have to get the frigate sail from Vanguard.

[JayT]

I'm willing to bet that the Air Force knows less about its SDF element then it does about us.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach,

I've been puzzling over a better color combination myself...unfortunately "Post Office Blue" is such an odd shade, it's hard to match well with anything...maybe some of the more color coordinated artistic types can chime in with ideas here.

I was hoping that one of the "Photoshop Geniuses" could post a picture...

Not only no, but hell no.

Awww... C'mon... PLEEEEZE!!!!!!!

[Hawk200]

I'm willing to bet that the Air Force knows less about its SDF element then it does about us.

The Army or the Air Force has no command relationship with SDF's. They are entirely state assets of the governor. The Army has permitted SDF's to use a modified version of it's Class A uniform, but that's the extent of their relationship.

There is a State Guard Association that has tried to establish some standards, but since they're not a Federal organization, they don't have any command authority.

A good webpage on their duties: http://www.sgaus.org/HR826MainPage.htm

[JayT]

Then why are people refer to them as the 'Air Force SDF element?'

It seems like a lot of people on this board want to blame the Air Force for CAPs problems.

[Hawk200]

Then why are people refer to them as the 'Air Force SDF element?'

If people jump off a bridge, should you do the same thing? Does the majority make it right?

I've never actually heard them called "Air Force SDF elements". I've heard them referred to as "Air elements" and "SDF Air Arms", but noone here has ever called them "Air Force SDF elements". Someone may call them that but the terminology is just as ignorant as calling an SDF an "Army". They're "militia's" or "State Guards" or "State Defense Forces", not Army or Air Force SDF's.

And would you care to list all the "problems" that a lot of people on this board are "blaming" the Air Force for? I followed an observation earlier that the Air Force is inconsistant with how they apply standards, but it was a simple observation, not blaming anyone. Was that what you were referring to?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I referred to them as "SDF Air Elements."  They don't belong to the Air Force, but the uniform does.  I am familiar with Army insignia for SDF's, but I'm not sure what special insignia, if any, the Air Force applies to the state air guard forces.

[Hawk200]

I referred to them as "SDF Air Elements."  They don't belong to the Air Force, but the uniform does.  I am familiar with Army insignia for SDF's, but I'm not sure what special insignia, if any, the Air Force applies to the state air guard forces.

The Army has specific allowances for SDF's to use their uniform, but I don't even know if the Air Force has made any allowance for use of theirs. If they have, I would be interested in seeing the message.

[mikeylikey]

SOOO.......what is the next uniform change?  Anyone have a guess, and if it is related to anything SDF......don't post it please!

[JohnKachenmeister]

the "Pineda Survival Ribbon" awarded to all wing and region commanders who didn't get fired?

[Smokey]

That would be a VERY limited ribbon.  Almost as rare as the Medal of Honor.

[JayT]

Then why are people refer to them as the 'Air Force SDF element?'

If people jump off a bridge, should you do the same thing? Does the majority make it right?

I've never actually heard them called "Air Force SDF elements". I've heard them referred to as "Air elements" and "SDF Air Arms", but noone here has ever called them "Air Force SDF elements". Someone may call them that but the terminology is just as ignorant as calling an SDF an "Army". They're "militia's" or "State Guards" or "State Defense Forces", not Army or Air Force SDF's.

And would you care to list all the "problems" that a lot of people on this board are "blaming" the Air Force for? I followed an observation earlier that the Air Force is inconsistant with how they apply standards, but it was a simple observation, not blaming anyone. Was that what you were referring to?

Actually, it wasn't you at all. It seems like every time the corporates come up in discussion, some people seem to think that fat and fuzzies should be allowed to wear the military style uniform. And it seems that those people are under the impression the Air Force is trying to dissrespect us by not letting all of our guys wear the military style uniform.

Honestly, it seems that a lot of people in CAP have a bit of inferiority complex inregards to the Air Force, sort of a 'bastard stepchild' thing.

[SarDragon]

I don't expect to wear the mil-style uniform. I do expect to be treated as an equal professionally.

Right now we have three classes of members, who, in some cases, are not treated equally. You have the "fit" members, who are allowed to wear the mil-style uniform, the "fatties", who can wear any of the corporate uniforms, and the "fuzzies", like me, who are only allowed to wear a subset of the corporate uniforms.

I would really like to have a set of uniforms, for all of us who can't wear mil-style uniforms, that shares some equivalency to AF uniforms at each level.

On that note, I think we need to get back on topic.