I've got the blues about my "blues"

[Walkman]

OK, so I look at 39-1 and it shows men's short sleeve blues with wing patch on left should and nothing on the collar. The binder I just got as a new member shows the blues with no wing patch and CAP cutouts on the collar.

So, help me make sense of this, please...

[captrncap]

Wing Patch was removed last year and CAP cutouts are for Senior Members Without Grade

[Pylon]

To help clarify, there have been changes made to our uniforms since the release of the uniform manual.  When looking up how to wear your uniform, you should always check the Interim Change Letters in addition to CAPM 39-1.  The most recent Interim Change Letters can be found here:  http://level2.cap.gov/visitors/member_services/publications/policy_letters.cfm

The Wing Patches are no longer worn on any of the blues uniforms (shirts, service coats, jackets, sweaters, etc.).  They are optional for wear on the BDUs (member's choice, unless local policy dictates otherwise).

The blue embroidered cutouts are for Senior Members without Grade (also just referred to as "SM").  The metal, pin-on cutouts are for Cadet Airmen Basics (C/AB).

[Walkman]

Good thing I just used that iron-on tape last night to put the wing patch on! I was meeting a reporter who's going to do a few stories on us and only had time to quickly put together the new stuff. Did a quick check on the 39-1 PDF to see what went were and ran off. Saw the other binder thing after I got home. None at the meeting corrected me about it though...maybe they were being nice to the new guy.

Thanks for the link, Pylon. I'd read chatter about frequent uniform changes, but didn't know about where (or when) to look.

Now for a follow-up question- do I wear the SM embroidered collar thingies with the gray SMWOG epaulets? I see that the other officers don't have grade insignia on their collars, but on the shoulders.

[RogueLeader]

Note:
For SMOG, you wear the metal cutouts on the Collar of Blues, but embroidered on the BDUs/BBDUs.

[Pylon]

Now for a follow-up question- do I wear the SM embroidered collar thingies with the gray SMWOG epaulets? I see that the other officers don't have grade insignia on their collars, but on the shoulders.

Sorry, I'm half-asleep this morning.  Not enough Starbucks.  

The embroidered cutouts are for BDUs.  On blues, you wear the metal pin on CAP cutouts on the collar as a SM, and do not wear any epaulet sleeves/shouldermarks.  Once you attain a grade (Flight Officer, NCO, or Officer), then you wear the grey epaulet sleeves (or blue, if you wear the new corporate uniform affectionately known as the TPU) and remove the cutouts.

It's also a pain in the rear (since you'll be an officer in under 6 months) but as a SM without grade, you have to wear the enlisted flight CAP (no silver braid).  When you become a 2d Lt or FO, you would then switch to the officer flight cap.

[RogueLeader]

It's also a pain in the rear (since you'll be an officer in under 6 months) but as a SM without grade, you have to wear the enlisted flight CAP (no silver braid).  When you become a 2d Lt or FO, you would then switch to the officer flight cap.

Really?  I never knew that.  I've always seen the regular one worn.  Where in 39-1 is it?

[Pylon]

Really?  I never knew that.  I've always seen the regular one worn.  Where in 39-1 is it?

CAPM 39-1, Table 2-1 (Men's Service, Mess Dress, and Semiformal Uniforms (page 51).  My emphasis added.

Flight Cap. 
...
Cap has dark-blue colored edge braid for cadets, senior member NCOs, Airmen and senior members without grade;  silver and blue in a diamond pattern edge braid for all senior member officers; and silver-colored edge braid for general officers.

[Walkman]

On blues, you wear the metal pin on CAP cutouts on the collar as a SM, and do not wear any epaulet sleeves/shouldermarks.  Once you attain a grade (Flight Officer, NCO, or Officer), then you wear the grey epaulet sleeves (or blue, if you wear the new corporate uniform affectionately known as the TPU) and remove the cutouts.

Snap! I had read somewhere that I was supposed to wear the plain ep's without grade on them. I ordered them from Vanguard. Is that another recent change?

[MIKE]

No, you were misinformed. 

Note to everybody:  This is why SMs without grade should not wear service uniforms until they are at least 2d Lt.  Wear a golf shirt for the 6 months.

[Pylon]

I had read somewhere that I was supposed to wear the plain ep's without grade on them. I ordered them from Vanguard. Is that another recent change?

Nope, that's just a misconception.  Senior members without grade have never worn the blank SM epaulet sleeves.  Nobody ever has.  In fact, I wish Vanguard would stop selling them as they have no more use in CAP now that NCO epaulet sleeves are embroidered.

CAPM 39-1 is pretty clear that Senior Members without grade wear metal CAP cutouts on the collar in blues, and embroidered CAP cutouts in BDUs.

[Lancer]

Note to everybody:  This is why SMs without grade should not wear service uniforms until they are at least 2d Lt.  Wear a golf shirt for the 6 months.

Agreed, that is exactly what I did.

That solution should live in the new 39-1 to end headaches and confusion for SMWOG's. 6 months goes by SO fast; besides, by the time you figure out what you need, and order it from Vanguard, your 6 months will be up and you'll finally be a FO or 2d Lt. 

[Walkman]

Nope, that's just a misconception.  Senior members without grade have never worn the blank SM epaulet sleeves.  Nobody ever has.  In fact, I wish Vanguard would stop selling them as they have no more use in CAP now that NCO epaulet sleeves are embroidered.

I wish I could remember where I got that from...

Oh well, my bad.

This is why SMs without grade should not wear service uniforms until they are at least 2d Lt.  Wear a golf shirt for the 6 months.

Our DCC brought me over some blues from the hangar and told me to see what fit (we get hand-me downs from AF ROTC), so I figured it would be okay to get them in order and wear 'em. As you can see from this thread, the regs are not real easy to figure out for new people.

Anyway, now that I'm straightened out, I'll get my stuff in proper order.

Thanks.

[jimmydeanno]

Walkman,

No offense to you whatsoever, but this is just another example of CAP members leaving the new guy out to dry and figure stuff out on his own and only advocates better initial training.

I am really glad that you took the time to ask questions here, but wouldn't it have been nice if someone said, "here, you need to order these things for your uniform, this is what you should wear, you can get them here.  When they come in, I'll help you sort through 39-1..."

I am saddened when new members are just left to start on their own devices and get confused in the world that is CAP.

Maybe you can cancel the blank epaulet sleeves before they ship because you'll never use them.

[isuhawkeye]

not to cause problems, but where does level I fit in this problem

[Pylon]

not to cause problems, but where does level I fit in this problem

In a perfect world?  Level I would address all of these issues, for sure.  Unfortunately, uneven administration of Level I at local units across CAP leaves uneven education of new members.

[Walkman]

Walkman,

No offense to you whatsoever, but this is just another example of CAP members leaving the new guy out to dry and figure stuff out on his own and only advocates better initial training.

I am really glad that you took the time to ask questions here, but wouldn't it have been nice if someone said, "here, you need to order these things for your uniform, this is what you should wear, you can get them here.  When they come in, I'll help you sort through 39-1..."

I am saddened when new members are just left to start on their own devices and get confused in the world that is CAP.

I think in my case it's more that I wanted to get going faster than what they were used to. I finished Level One the week after I got my temp card and went on a crash diet and shaved to meet grooming standards. They were kinda' whiplashed. Overall, they've been very helpful and taken good care of me.

not to cause problems, but where does level I fit in this problem

.

Here is where I think I got confused about the ep's. This is the quote from the Level One Uniforms PDF:
"Rank Insignia (mandatory): Officers will wear gray embroidered epaulets with rank insignia."

I saw the "mandatory", saw that they were available at Vanguard, ordered them. I haven't been sent a shipping notice on the order, so I'll cancel them.

The color pages with uniforms that came in the binder were much easier to figure out than 39-1, but they are out of date on some details.

<rant>
This is a bit OT, but not too far-
After spending years and years designing communication materials for tons of different companies and orgs, I would love a chance to rework some of the forms/pamphlets/regs. I'm not talking about making them super flashy or anything, just implementing good information design techniques to make them more usable. I see from the constant "where is that in the regs" posts here that I'm not alone.
</rant>

[RogueLeader]

I saw the "mandatory", saw that they were available at Vanguard, ordered them. I haven't been sent a shipping notice on the order, so I'll cancel them.

Thats a common misconception I have noticed since the term 'Cap Officer" has come into existence.  SMWOG is not an Officer Grade. FO through MG are Officer Grades. Slightly off topic, but serves my point- For example  if a 2d Lt wants to take an AFIADL test, I put down O-1, if I enroll an SMWOG, it's listed as an E-1. 

[jimmydeanno]

^A Flight Officer is not an officer (To Hold CAP Officer grade you must be 21) this by default makes FOs not officers...That would make those 2d Lt - Maj Gen officer grades which would get the silver braid in their flight cap (of course there is the different variations of silver braid...)...

Flight Cap: ... Senior member officer flight cap has silver and blue braid. All others wear flight cap with solid blue braid.

[Pylon]

^A Flight Officer is not an officer

Actually, you'll notice that Flight Officers are conspicuously left out of the detailed list of those who will wear the blue braided edge.  It then goes on to say that "senior member officers" wear the one with silver and blue braid.

If you read CAPM 39-1, Section 1-3, for the purposes of the uniform manual, Flight Officers are part of the category of "senior member officers."

1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.

[SAR-EMT1]

Flight Officers are to some extent what Warrants are to the Army.
Someone with the rights of an Officer, and the Uniform of an Officer, but who ranks below a 2nd Lt and who has little to none of hte responsibility or stress of the Commissioned Officer Corps.

However both serve a purpose and serve it very well. (my hat is off to any and all Warrants that were prior enlisted) 

[jimmydeanno]

Flight Officers are to some extent what Warrants are to the Army.
Someone with the rights of an Officer...

I don't really see a likeness between the two.

1) Flight Officers typically have no CAP experience (there is the ocassional cadet who transfers membership...but...)

2) Warrant Officers are experts in their specialized field and have years of training and expertise.

3) Flight Officers do not 'rate' a salute under normal circumstances.  CAPP 151 says you salute all officers.  To be a CAP officer you need to be 21. 39-1 is not the reference for a definition of an officer overall. (NOTE: Thank you Pylon for pointing out that line for the flight cap.)

4) Warrant Officers 'rate' a salute from enlisted personnel.

5) Flight Officers are young and inexperienced, not always inexperienced, but always young.

6) Warrant Officers are never that young and always have experience.

[SAR-EMT1]

The fact that the Flight Officers have the very term Officer in them is an indicator to me. And they can hold positions and leadership areas.
Second they have Technical and Senior FO's and they can transfer direct in a lst Lt or Capt.

[Trung Si Ma]

[In fact, I wish Vanguard would stop selling them as they have no more use in CAP now that NCO epaulet sleeves are embroidered.

Mike,

Look at my earlier post about NCO epaulet sleeves - Vanguard hopes to have samples for National approval in the next six months.  I called Suzy Parker's office and was told to pin the grade to the blank sleeves until Vanguard gets the embroidered ones.  After doing this and seeing how it looks, I'll wear my golf shirt until they get them done.

Don

[mikeylikey]

Flight Officers are to some extent what Warrants are to the Army.
Someone with the rights of an Officer...

I don't really see a likeness between the two.

1) Flight Officers typically have no CAP experience (there is the occasional cadet who transfers membership...but...)

2) Warrant Officers are experts in their specialized field and have years of training and expertise.

3) Flight Officers do not 'rate' a salute under normal circumstances.  CAPP 151 says you salute all officers.  To be a CAP officer you need to be 21. 39-1 is not the reference for a definition of an officer overall. (NOTE: Thank you Pylon for pointing out that line for the flight cap.)

4) Warrant Officers 'rate' a salute from enlisted personnel.

5) Flight Officers are young and inexperienced, not always inexperienced, but always young.

6) Warrant Officers are never that young and always have experience.

?  What!?

# 6......High school to flight school......19 year old WO.  OK settled that issue
#5............ young has nothing to do with it.  I would trust my life with some FO, and not some Lt Col's.
#4.............well duh!
#3.......... they do in fact rate a salute.  Tradition is tradition.  It may be unwritten, but everything else written backs it up.  SALUTE THEM!  or die
#2.........not necessarily.  They specialize in one area, while Commissioned Officers are generalists, dealing with all areas.  I have met many jacked up WO's......even though they only have to concentrate in one area they are still lacking.  
#1............Welcome to CAP......most FO's are former freaking Cadets.  They go Senior because CAP makes them (Active Duty) or they hate the Cadet program so much!

[jimmydeanno]

#3.......... they do in fact rate a salute.  Tradition is tradition.  It may be unwritten, but everything else written backs it up.  SALUTE THEM!  or die

#1............Welcome to CAP......most FO's are former freaking Cadets.  They go Senior because CAP makes them (Active Duty) or they hate the Cadet program so much!

No, they do not rate a salute according to what is written.

Flight Officer Grades. Senior members who are ineligible for officer grade because of the minimum age criteria (21 years) may qualify for appointment or promotion to flight officer grades as outlined in section F

So they're ineligible for OFFICER grade.

3. Senior Member Grades.
a. CAP officer grades are:
1) Major General (Maj Gen)
2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
3) Colonel (Col)
4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
5) Major (Maj)
6) Captain (Capt)
7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

They're not in the list of OFFICER GRADES.

6. Minimum Eligibility Requirements. To qualify for initial appointment to CAP officer grade, senior members must meet the following minimum requirements:
a. Be at least 21 years of age.

So for your inital appointment (first appointment to be a CAP OFFICER) you must be 21.  Therefore, to be a CAP OFFICER you must be 21.

Now, since you're supposed to salute OFFICERS and it is clearly stated that a Flight Officer is NOT considered an OFFICER in CAP - they do not generally rate a salute.

So no - they do not "in fact" rate a salute.  It is not a tradition to salute non-officers.  You don't see the NCO corps running around saluting each other or airman saluting NCOs do you?  Why?  Because they aren't officers.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the FO program, however, it is clearly stated that they do not qualify as CAP officers.  They may 'officer' in the title, but so does Non Commissioned Officer.

Most of the CAP FOs I've met have no CAP experience at all.  I think I've met 3 former cadets who were FOs all 100 others were CAP newbies.

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[mikeylikey]

Most of the CAP FOs I've met have no CAP experience at all.  I think I've met 3 former cadets who were FOs all 100 others were CAP newbies.

So where was this Flight Officer convention in which you met 100 Flight Officers?

So why the big deal on not saluting a FO?  Are you a cadet who is 20, and there is a FO that is 18 and you don't want to salute people younger than you. 

I hate to tell you, the FO is an "unofficial" Officer.  I will make it standing protocol to have all cadets salute FO's, and make all SMWOG salute all FO's.

Just because it does not specifically say "salute FO"....you should still do it

[jimmydeanno]

There was no "flight officer convention."  After a decade in the program you tend to meet a lot of people.  Of the thousands of people I've seen in CAP about 100 were FOs.

There is no big deal on saluting FOs - I'm just pointing out what CAP actually considers them.

For a group of people who are concerned about 'following the rules and regulations' of CAP, there seems to be a lot of "when it's convenient" or "when I agree with it." in this case.

So why would you make a cadet salute a FO but not a SMWOG?  Neither are technically officers.  Wouldn't that make a SMWOG an 'unofficial officer' too? Does that also make NCOs "unofficial officers" too?  Afterall they have officer in their title?

[pixelwonk]

Why all the barracks lawyering?

A Flight Officer is an officer.  For those who haven't noticed, CAP regs don't always agree with each other.  For every reason backing up an opponent's argument, I can produce one that backs up the position that they are.

Typically, they do not rate a salute because they are at the bottom of the totem pole. that's simply logic.

The flight cap braid thing has already been discussed.  Using your selective logic, since only officers wear silver/blue braid in their flight caps, then a flight officer must qualify as an officer.
Let's revisit that reg again...

If you read CAPM 39-1, Section 1-3, for the purposes of the uniform manual, Flight Officers are part of the category of "senior member officers."

1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.

Agree to disagree, accept the fact that Flight Officers are treated as such umm, like everywhere... and move on.

Like to sleeve braid or something. 

[mikeylikey]

Does that make NCOs "unofficial officers" too?  Afterall they have officer in their title too...

 Ok.....I am done playing with this thread!  Make sure you go to your next SQD meeting and tell your cadets......."don't respect or salute the FO we have.  He is NOTHING to us"

[jimmydeanno]

There is a difference between respecting a FO and not saluting them.  We respect NCOs every day by addressing them as Sergeant and trusting their abilities to get the job done, but they aren't expecting a salute for validation.

NOWHERE did I say "do not respect FOs."  I simply pointed out that according to our customs and courtesies practices they do not rate a salute and they are not considered 'CAP Officers.'  That doesn't make them unworthy members. 

My cadets do not salute the FOs in our squadron because the cadets and FOs understand that CAP does not consider them to be officers, but they do respect them and call them by the appropriate titles.

[JC004]

You have met 100 flight officers?!  Was there a flight officer convention I was supposed to attend when I was one?!

In PAWG, one of our largest wings, we only have exactly 19 people who are 18-20 and Senior Members, almost half of which I can say I know to be inactive and plain SMs.  If there was a convention and you didn't tell me, I am going to be very, very sad.  I didn't mind my couple years as a FO.

[Flying Pig]

Ive been in CAP 15 years and I think Ive seen 2 FO's.  Of course....I was a C/FO back in the day!
I was told when I attended Cadet Officer Basic Course many moons ago that it just allows a transition from Cadet to Senior.  A Senior member in training.  They can attend Senior courses and hold Senior member leadership positions and everyone recognizes they are in the learning phase.  When they hit 21 they are recognized for their service by qualifying for advanced promotion when they turn Senior.   I was told it really wasn't intended to be for someone who was brand new to CAP at age 19. But unfortunately they still fall in under the FO program.

CAP Flight Officers are in no way anything like military warrant officers.

[Major Carrales]

This is an example of why CAPM 39-1 need to be revised.  A new member comes in and is given a copy of it...puts their uniform in order by it, and has not read the 6 or so policy letters.


I think uniform policy letters need to be outlawed.  If you are going to make a uniform change, it needs to be a complete change of the regulation.  This would make willy-nilly changes a thing of the past. 

Oh, and not every person has a computer to be able to download the latest reg or policy letter.   Computer access is not yet universal.

[Walkman]

I think uniform policy letters need to be outlawed.  If you are going to make a uniform change, it need to be a complete change of the regulation.  This would make willy-nilly changes a thing of the past. 

I'm with you there! At least make some sort of doc that new members can use that is always up-to-date. An easy solution that could handle the frequent updates would be a database driven webpage. As regs are changed, IT only has to update the changed fields in the database and they'll instantly display the new information. It doesn't have to be as extensive as 39-1, either. Most new members are probably going straight to either BDUs (or BBDUs) or golf shirt/slacks, going with Mike's idea:

This is why SMs without grade should not wear service uniforms until they are at least 2d Lt.  Wear a golf shirt for the 6 months.

As the good Major also points out about not everyone having access to computers, it isn't really that difficult to set up a process to turn that webpage into a PDF that can be printed on-demand and inserted into the new SM binder.

[SARMedTech]

Im not agreeing with the decision, but we just had a SMWOG quit the Squadron because in his words "CAP regs are FUBAR" and a pain in the ^%$.  He decided that USCGAUX used a little more common sense.  Again, not saying I disagree but its pretty sad when someone quits us because the regs are so confusing. And whether anyone agrees with his decision or not, theres not really much question that CAP regs are...FUBAR-ish.

[RiverAux]

Folks, anyone who wants to look at 39-1 has to be blind not to see all the various policy letters ammending it online.  Back in the old days policy letters would be easy to miss, but not anymore. 

[Major Carrales]

Folks, anyone who wants to look at 39-1 has to be blind not to see all the various policy letters ammending it online.  Back in the old days policy letters would be easy to miss, but not anymore. 

OK, six cadets from a poor urban or rural community with no access to the the web join.  They are given a Copy of CAPM 39-1 by one of you "it's in the regs" types.  The cadets organize their uniforms according to the guidance...and then the instructional documents presented in the "binder" that comes in the mail.

They have gone to the expense...now three to six policy letters come out changing "US CIVIL AIR PATROL" to "USAF AUXILIARY,"  WING PATCHES come back...then disappear.  And lastly, an old uniform style is phased out, then returned this time with the need for new epaulets.

You miss the point, my friend.

It's not that a person needs to get on line to see these things...it is that they have to with an undo frequency.

OUTLAW UNIFORM POLICY LETTERS...CALL FOR CHANGES TO CAPM 39-1 to BE CHANGED with as many obstacles to the CHANGES as possible.

[RiverAux]

Well then the person who gave them the manual without the accompanying policy letters is the one who screwed them, not CAP NHQ. 

[SJFedor]

Just to bring up some dead skeletons...

someone prior mentioned FO's not being officers. 35-5 does not define them as officers, but does the title itself not define them as an officer?

If they weren't, per se, officers, wouldn't we call them Flight Members or Flight People?

[RiverAux]

CAP Non-commissioned OFFICERS

[SJFedor]

Now, since you're supposed to salute OFFICERS and it is clearly stated that a Flight Officer is NOT considered an OFFICER in CAP - they do not generally rate a salute.

Where does it clearly say that a Flight OFficer is not an officer? All I've seen in your presentation is the omission of the term "Flight Officer" in the text, not that it clearly says anything.

But then again, most regs don't clearly say anything.

SECTION G - FLIGHT OFFICER GRADES
30. General. Only senior members under 21 years of age will be appointed to or promoted to the flight officer grades

I see the magical word of appointment. Being appointed as a flight officer, would, therefore, confer officership.

[Walkman]

Folks, anyone who wants to look at 39-1 has to be blind not to see all the various policy letters ammending it online.  Back in the old days policy letters would be easy to miss, but not anymore. 

I'm trying not to be offended at that remark. I'm not an idiot nor am I blind. I'm just new.

Maybe after you've been in a bit and know about them. When Level One says read the manual, we read the manual. There's nothing in there about updates and changes. You have to know to look for them,

Well then the person who gave them the manual without the accompanying policy letters is the one who screwed them, not CAP NHQ. 

Then there is also the binder, which came from NHQ. I get the official binder in the mail and there are the printed pages with photos, that are OUT OF DATE. Then the CD has a big folder of PDFs, but they're all listed with cryptic codes that a new member doesn't know. Yes, we have a mentoring system, but it should also be reasonable to expect that a new person with no experience can get the basic CORRECT information in an easy to find place. Now that I've been informed about change letters, I know to check them.

[jimmydeanno]

Now, since you're supposed to salute OFFICERS and it is clearly stated that a Flight Officer is NOT considered an OFFICER in CAP - they do not generally rate a salute.

Where does it clearly say that a Flight Officer is not an officer? All I've seen in your presentation is the omission of the term "Flight Officer" in the text, not that it clearly says anything.

But then again, most regs don't clearly say anything.

SECTION G - FLIGHT OFFICER GRADES
30. General. Only senior members under 21 years of age will be appointed to or promoted to the flight officer grades

I see the magical word of appointment. Being appointed as a flight officer, would, therefore, confer officership.

Exactly, they are omitted out of every list that has anything to do with officers...that's the point.  It says, "CAP Officer grades are..." and doesn't include the FO grades.  It then says, "For initial appointment to a CAP officer grade, you must be 21..." and "Flight Officer grades are reserved for those who do not meet the age criteria to be an officer."

So instead, we look at 39-1 which is the uniform manual for clarification on what consititutes an officer?  I don't think so - how about we look at the reg that defines each category...CAPR 35-5.

Of course this is JMO/interpretation.

[SJFedor]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I have yet to encounter a "n00b" FO. Every FO I've met has years in the organization as a cadet, and are usually former cadet officers turned to the dark side for various reasons (I was sick of getting passed on flights where I could build some time because the other pilot wasn't a Cadet O-pilot and couldn't be PIC with me on board on C-missions)

I dunno, I personally recieved salutes from cadets while I was an FO/TFO/SFO, and no one seemed to care otherwise.

And, although the jobs our FO's perform is nothing close to Warrants, I would think the general grade structure and meaning is kind of the same. FO's back in WWII with CAP were just like present day warrants, not elligible for commissioned grade for various reasons, but a technical specialist, with more standing (not saying better, just higher on the totem pole) then a non com.

[Major Carrales]

Well then the person who gave them the manual without the accompanying policy letters is the one who screwed them, not CAP NHQ. 

Again the point is that we should not have frickin' policy letters coming out every month or two changing uniform items.   Why do you insist on defending that practice by omission?

Units should not be wasting resources printing policy leaders ad infinitum, but rather we need one uniform without the constant changes from one manual.

MEIN GOTT!!! Look at the sheer number of these letters and retraction (change to changes) letters.   Pretty ridiculous for a CAP Manual that is the "sole source" of authority on CAP Uniforms. There is no need at all for that sort of nonsense.

[pixelwonk]

Oh.the.drama.

[MIKE]

Why are we talking about Flight Officers again? 

[pixelwonk]

Flight officers are the new berets.

[Walkman]

Why are we talking about Flight Officers again? 

<whiney kid voice>
He started it!
</whiney kid voice>

[SJFedor]

Cuz being an FO is the bomb.

Senior Flight Officer sounds a boat load cooler then SMWOG.

[MIKE]

Nobody gives a [mess] about Flight Officers.  Nobody gives a [mess] about SMs without grade either... as evidenced by CAPM 39-1.

[SJFedor]

Nobody gives a [mess] about Flight Officers.

I just got an idea to prove you wrong...

[Major Carrales]

Nobody gives a [mess] about Flight Officers.

I just got an idea to prove you wrong...

Oh...so this is MIKE's doing?!?  I hope it was sarcastic.

[SJFedor]

I have no doubt that it was. I'm just in rare form tonight. 

[Major Carrales]

I have no doubt that it was. I'm just in rare form tonight. 

OK...for a while there I was questioning my respect for youse guys.

[AlphaSigOU]

Oy gevalt! Just way too much worrying about the proper place in the food chain for FOs and SMWOGs. 

[Major Carrales]

Oy gevalt! Just way too much worrying about the proper place in the food chain for FOs and SMWOGs. 

So long as they are not being treated as someone's "man servant."  I have seen this done with cadets and some flight officers.  It is quite distasteful.

[mikeylikey]

^  What's wrong with having myself a "Man Servant"? 

[AlphaSigOU]

^  What's wrong with having myself a "Man Servant"? 

The operative term - at least in the British armed forces - is 'batman'. I don't know if they even use 'em anymore. A batman is usually a low-ranked enlisted who acts as an officer's manservant.

[Major Carrales]

^  What's wrong with having myself a "Man Servant"? 

The operative term - at least in the British armed forces - is 'batman'. I don't know if they even use 'em anymore. A batman is usually a low-ranked enlisted who acts as an officer's manservant.

A batsman?  I say, I was watching the Texas Rangers playing and noticed I could not see the bloody wicket?   

[MIKE]

Yeah... this thread is...