Khaki Shorts Blue Golf Shirt Combo

[Nathan]

Until either of those actions is undertaken, though, you don't really have much room to argue.

Ah, ok.  So now unless something directly effects us personally, we're no longer allowed to discuss it academically?

That's going to take a big chunk out of the internet, but I'll let them know of your decision and start shutting things down.

Zuckerberg may be calling you, just an FYI...

You said it's apparently a matter of interpretation. Doesn't sound like there's much to be "academic" about.

[Hawk200]

Hey, CAP is gettting real convenient nowadays. If I want to do something that isn't really in compliance with regs all I got to do is email someone. Just got to keep copies of the emails so I can "prove" that I talked to someone. The electronic age is really cool.

[/sarcasm]

What happened to things going up the chain, getting reviewed for impact, approved or disapproved, then announced? I doubt other corporations make policy changes with just an email or three.

[FlyTiger77]

I doubt other corporations make policy changes with just an email or three.

Really?

Heck, some major commands issue PowerPoint slide presentations in lieu of operations orders. (Not saying I agree, but it happens).

If an e-mail authorizing an alternate uniform drives you nuts, then those commands would probably make your head explode.

[Hawk200]

I doubt other corporations make policy changes with just an email or three.

Really?

Heck, some major commands issue PowerPoint slide presentations in lieu of operations orders. (Not saying I agree, but it happens).

If an e-mail authorizing an alternate uniform drives you nuts, then those commands would probably make your head explode.

That's all it takes? An few emails? No wonder the economy is in such a rut, companies just make a change and deal with the repercussions later.

[a2capt]

Hey, CAP is gettting real convenient nowadays. If I want to do something that isn't really in compliance with regs all I got to do is email someone. Just got to keep copies of the emails so I can "prove" that I talked to someone. The electronic age is really cool.

You forgot the part about "keeping eyes from them" when someone else questions it, too.

[Hawk200]

Hey, CAP is gettting real convenient nowadays. If I want to do something that isn't really in compliance with regs all I got to do is email someone. Just got to keep copies of the emails so I can "prove" that I talked to someone. The electronic age is really cool.

You forgot the part about "keeping eyes from them" when someone else questions it, too.

Oops. Dang it, knew I forgot something.

Seriously, though, if no one else has seen it, if no one else can confirm it, it doesn't exist.

For an organization like ours, this strikes me as very dangerous ground. Just CCing someone, and then acting on it is a mess. No two locations would have the same procedures. If something is right for one are, no reason it should apply to another.

[Eclipse]

For an organization like ours, this strikes me as very dangerous ground. Just CCing someone, and then acting on it is a mess. No two locations would have the same procedures. If something is right for one are, no reason it should apply to another.

Since there's no published supplement, we don't appear to have the entire story, but on the '/CC'ing comment, I have worked very hard to get my unit commanders to understand the difference between "aware" and "approved".

As presented, we don't even know if the message bounced and the NHQ/CC even saw it (which is not what I am asserting, but is why what is required is a memo on letterhead with a signature, properly published).

What would a member who had an accident and is being disavowed have to hold up in court? 

[RiverAux]

It just puzzles me why they just wouldn't publish a supplement.  Its not like it would take more than about 5 minutes to turn that email into a proper supplement and then follow the proper administrative procedures.  This is an issue that deserves a supplement since it directly contradicts a published regulation. 

Its stuff like this that drives me crazy --- doing it the hard way instead of the right, and easy, way. 

[a2capt]

Why publish?

Because it's probably got roots like the recent thread where it was listed as an option for the PCR Conference, even though it's not an official uniform so they are saying come out of uniform, but come all out of uniform the same way, to be uniform.

Probably wasn't meant to be published, but rather grew legs and sooner or later it becomes accepted because he-said-she-said, I saw them doing it, so I did it too.

Would it be nice? Yeah. I think it looks better than old curmudgeon gray. But again, 27 interpretations makes 72 "sources". So much for uniform.

[Short Field]

Ah, ok.  So now unless something directly effects us personally, we're no longer allowed to discuss it academically?

You were not discussing it academically, you were telling people that they should not trust anything their squadron, wing, region, and national commanders tell them unless they personally validate it as correct and legal.  Your basic position is to not trust anything that the chain of command passes down. 

Yes, I get lied to by my chain of command on occasion - but I still trust them when they say the National Commander approved something.  Even on the things I know they are lying about, I still accept their word for it until I can prove otherwise.  Most of the time it is just them playing CYOA on something they forgot to do or promised to do and didn't.  Small stuff.....

[Hawk200]

You were not discussing it academically, you were telling people that they should not trust anything their squadron, wing, region, and national commanders tell them unless they personally validate it as correct and legal.  Your basic position is to not trust anything that the chain of command passes down.

The initial post of the email did not show anything coming down the chain. It only showed an email sent that the National Commander is CC'ed.  No one has shown us a reply from the general.

Until a commander actually replies to the inquiry, you work within the reg. You can't "mistrust" someone that hasn't told you anything.

Yes, I get lied to by my chain of command on occasion - but I still trust them when they say the National Commander approved something.  Even on the things I know they are lying about, I still accept their word for it until I can prove otherwise.  Most of the time it is just them playing CYOA on something they forgot to do or promised to do and didn't.  Small stuff.....

Then you're stuck with an impossible task, proving that something doesn't exist. Some things in life are taken on faith, but word from the National Commander shouldn't be. If someone claims that HQ/CC said something, they should have the proof in hand to show you.

[FW]

Then you're stuck with an impossible task, proving that something doesn't exist. Some things in life are taken on faith, but word from the National Commander shouldn't be. If someone claims that HQ/CC said something, they should have the proof in hand to show you.

When it comes to flying activities, being in an authorized uniform is mandatory.  A waiver to wear the glider uniform option for all flying activities needs to be in writing and signed by the national commander.  I'm sure this is so however, it would have been much more appropriate if the waiver was attached to the region commander's email.

[ßτε]

From: Col James M Rushing
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:10 PM
Cc: Maj Gen Amy Courter
Subject:ALTERNATE OPTIONAL SUMMER FLYING UNIFORM

                Based on the success of Col Tim Carroll in obtaining a waiver from Gen Courter for an alternate summer flying uniform consisting of the CAP polo shirt, khaki or tan shorts, CAP cap or wing specific cap, white socks and running shoes, I have requested and been granted a waiver for that optional alternate summer flying uniform to apply to all six wings in Southeast Region and for region staff during the hot summer months.  This will apply only to activities that occur within the borders of Southeast Region.  It will not apply if you are flying outside of the region or to participate in an activity in another region.  This uniform only applies to flight activities and is not authorized for ground team activities or mission staff personnel.

James M. Rushing, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Southeast Region

It looks to me as if the email was only to infrom the SER that a waiver has been already requested and granted. The fact that the National Commander was sent a cc of the email in no way indicates that this is the process used to request the waiver. It was just to give the National Commander a heads-up that the region was being informed of the waiver.

[davidsinn]

From: Col James M Rushing
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:10 PM
Cc: Maj Gen Amy Courter
Subject:ALTERNATE OPTIONAL SUMMER FLYING UNIFORM

                Based on the success of Col Tim Carroll in obtaining a waiver from Gen Courter for an alternate summer flying uniform consisting of the CAP polo shirt, khaki or tan shorts, CAP cap or wing specific cap, white socks and running shoes, I have requested and been granted a waiver for that optional alternate summer flying uniform to apply to all six wings in Southeast Region and for region staff during the hot summer months.  This will apply only to activities that occur within the borders of Southeast Region.  It will not apply if you are flying outside of the region or to participate in an activity in another region.  This uniform only applies to flight activities and is not authorized for ground team activities or mission staff personnel.

James M. Rushing, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Southeast Region

It looks to me as if the email was only to infrom the SER that a waiver has been already requested and granted. The fact that the National Commander was sent a cc of the email in no way indicates that this is the process used to request the waiver. It was just to give the National Commander a heads-up that the region was being informed of the waiver.

If there is a waiver, where is it? It should be published in some form somewhere that everyone can get to.

[Eclipse]

Ah, ok.  So now unless something directly effects us personally, we're no longer allowed to discuss it academically?

You were not discussing it academically, you were telling people that they should not trust anything their squadron, wing, region, and national commanders tell them unless they personally validate it as correct and legal.  Your basic position is to not trust anything that the chain of command passes down. 

That isn't remotely what I said.

What I said was that there are certain decisions outside the authority of any commander which require a specific process, including publication, to change.  The ramifications of this puts our membership at risk.  Uniform wear is one of them.  Some consider it "trivial", I don't.

[Short Field]

The National Commander waived the requirement and basically is requiring the glider program uniform.  That uniform has been approved by the Department of Labor as meeting their requirement for our pilots to have FECA coverage.

Please show us the cite where the National Commander does not have the authority to issue a waiver for one of her regulations.

[FW]

^OK boys and girls....
First point:  They are not "her" regulations.  They are "our" regulations; passed and approved by the National Board.

Second point: The national commander may modify where a uniform is worn by issuing a waiver. This must be done for flying activities as, it may affect survivor benefits.  No one is disputing this point.  The point is; it needs to be a written and signed waiver and, it should be published to those concerned or, at least referenced as in an email. (gee, I think that was accomplished.)

Third point: "the Department of Labor"?  Now I've heard everything....

[Nathan]

From: Col James M Rushing
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:10 PM
Cc: Maj Gen Amy Courter
Subject:ALTERNATE OPTIONAL SUMMER FLYING UNIFORM

                Based on the success of Col Tim Carroll in obtaining a waiver from Gen Courter for an alternate summer flying uniform consisting of the CAP polo shirt, khaki or tan shorts, CAP cap or wing specific cap, white socks and running shoes, I have requested and been granted a waiver for that optional alternate summer flying uniform to apply to all six wings in Southeast Region and for region staff during the hot summer months.  This will apply only to activities that occur within the borders of Southeast Region.  It will not apply if you are flying outside of the region or to participate in an activity in another region.  This uniform only applies to flight activities and is not authorized for ground team activities or mission staff personnel.

James M. Rushing, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Southeast Region

It looks to me as if the email was only to infrom the SER that a waiver has been already requested and granted. The fact that the National Commander was sent a cc of the email in no way indicates that this is the process used to request the waiver. It was just to give the National Commander a heads-up that the region was being informed of the waiver.

If there is a waiver, where is it? It should be published in some form somewhere that everyone can get to.

Yes, it should be published to the internet, because that's easy. But does it NEED to be in order to be a valid directive? Or can it be made available through, say, faxing? Is it possible instead that the region commander was informing the population that the waiver had been granted, meaning that it is SOMEWHERE, and available upon request? Isn't that still legal?

That was my whole point this entire argument. Just because we personally haven't seen every single step in this process doesn't mean that every step wasn't taken.

If I had a cadet come up to me and tell me this information, I would take it with a grain of salt, and wait to hear anything from the commander. But because region commander (I'm guessing higher up in the food chain than everyone participating in this conversation) has told us that something has been approved, then the only reason to assume it hasn't is due to distrust of either the source of the email, or of the region commander himself.

In Kansas, we have these things called "roundabouts", which I'm told are rather rare in other states. It's basically a traffic-circle that takes the place of a four-way stop. Apparently, you have to turn on your right-turn signal when entering the traffic stop. My brother did not, and was pulled over and issued a ticket. I searched in vain to try to find where this information was published on the internet. However, in court, the law about the turning signal was written down, SOMEWHERE, just not immediately accessible via the internet. I would have had to go to the source to see this law, but it was there. Just because it wasn't published to the internet did NOT make the law invalid. I just would have had to actually work a little bit to get it.

I haven't taken a look at the regs about how to... authorize regs... but to my knowledge, there is no regulatory requirement for the CAP CC to post directive to the internet in order to make it valid. The necessity is to write down the directive, somewhere, and sign it. Once that happens, and it becomes available to the public (albeit, not necessarily through the internet), then it would be legal, correct?

But the requirement is to make people aware that the procedure has taken place, and that seems to be what happened. The region commander has informed the commanders under his command, utilizing the chain of command exactly the way it's supposed to be utilized. Just because it's not on the interwebz doesn't mean that it's not SOMEWHERE. Like I said, this is CAP. It took us forever to get a new CAPM 39-1 done. Why is it shocking that NHQ would have a lag between approving something properly and posting it to the internet...?

Regardless, like I said, the only reason we as CAP members have to distrust that this process took place legally is to either distrust the second-hand source of the email (the original poster), to distrust the region commander (as either malicious or incompetent), or to distrust the national commander. There is no indication that foul play has taken place, as far as I can see, and why people are automatically disregarding the fact that the region commander says that approval has been granted just because YOU aren't seeing the approval right away is boggling.

The waiver should be posted to the internet for ease of access, but unless the regulations have been reflected to show that they need to be made public THROUGH THE INTERNET (as opposed to mailing or faxing), then there is no reason to suspect that anything is out of place here. The internet isn't the only way to distribute waivers. I would bet dollars to donuts that a concerned commander could get a copy of the waiver from the chain of command if they asked.

Which, I might add, would be the appropriate response in this situation. Not accusing the national commander of bypassing regulations.

[Hawk200]

The National Commander waived the requirement and basically is requiring the glider program uniform.  That uniform has been approved by the Department of Labor as meeting their requirement for our pilots to have FECA coverage.

Please show us the cite where the National Commander does not have the authority to issue a waiver for one of her regulations.

Where's the waiver? You keep stating that the National Commander is allowed to waiver things. I think most people would agree.

Now where is the actual waiver? Show it to us. Stating that the commander waivered the reg is not proof. Showing where she waivered it is what is being asked for. Can you show the proof? Otherwise, it's only hearsay, conjecture, or wishful thinking.

Yes, it should be published to the internet, because that's easy. But does it NEED to be in order to be a valid directive? Or can it be made available through, say, faxing? Is it possible instead that the region commander was informing the population that the waiver had been granted, meaning that it is SOMEWHERE, and available upon request? Isn't that still legal?

Faxing something takes more time than an Internet publish. "It was only faxed to me" sounds fishy. And "somewhere" should be where everyone can view it. Doesn't even matter if it only applies to a specific region.

[jimmydeanno]

In Kansas, we have these things called "roundabouts", which I'm told are rather rare in other states. It's basically a traffic-circle that takes the place of a four-way stop. Apparently, you have to turn on your right-turn signal when entering the traffic stop. My brother did not, and was pulled over and issued a ticket. I searched in vain to try to find where this information was published on the internet.

Not only are you supposed to signal when you enter the traffic-circle, but also when you change lanes, and exit.  [/off-topic]