Using a Scanner on a Distress Beacon Search

[Luis R. Ramos]

This thread is for those in New York and Florida which have laws against using scanners in vehicles.

I rejoined CAP in 1999, used a portable scanner in most of my SAREX and all missions, and so did most of those I knew. Then I stopped in 2004. Now that I have rejoined again and working to requalify on my Emergency Services qualifications, I read that it is illegal in New York State to use a scanner in a vehicle. Again in 1999 to 2004, in some of those 15 SAREX and most of those 20 missions, there were policemen. At no time was I told it was against the law to have so, nor did I hear anyone getting in trouble for doing so.

Now I am concerned. I still live in New York City.

Has anyone involved in CAP ES ever heard from anyone in New York or Florida, which I hear has similar laws, getting stopped by police?

Or is the issue a scanner permanently attached in a vehicle as opposed to a portable scanner?

The portable scanner I used about ten years ago still works. Should I stop using it? Should I remove it from my car??? I also own a distress beacon trainer, which I also keep it in the car. Will it help me?

Will stating "I am an agent of a Federal agency or on behalf of a Federal agency" help me if a hard-ass cop want to make a case if in a mission I use that scanner?

Can anyone opine? Again, would like to hear mostly from New York or Florida, but if anyone wants to explore or discuss this, please do so!

Flyer

[Woodsy]

I am heavily involved in ES in FLWG and I have never heard of such a law.  It may exist though, can't say for sure...  I've been on ELT missions in a COV listening to 121.5 going down the road.  Though, it's hard mounted to the vehicle and is an aviation band radio with TX so not just a scanner... 

In the event of a hard-A cop on a mission, tell him who you are and what you're doing.  Once they know you're on a SAR mission, they'll probably just want to know how they can help.  If training, they'll think it's cool.  You'll be in uniform and have ID too. 

If  that's not enough for them, have them call a supervisor while you call your IC.  Let the IC take it from there.  Officer butt head might calm down when the IC get's on the phone with, "Hello, this is Col. so and so..." 

There are things we do on missions that we might not do in everyday life...  One example that comes to mind is using "official use only" turn-arounds on interstates.  If it sounds like I'm getting farther away from my signal and I need to turn around, I'm going to use it.  Driving 5 miles down the road to the next exit is a waste of time.  Time counts when saving lives.  If I get pulled over (very unlikely in a marked COV, but we do use POV's often...) I'll explain to the officer that I am tracking an emergency signal.  I'll be in some sort of uniform, even if it's just the polo with the CAP seal.  I'll have my CAP ID card to show him, even before he asks.  I'll offer the name and number of the IC for verification if he needs it.  I can't imagine any officer would have a problem at that point.  After all, we are on official business.   

[Luis R. Ramos]

You just gave me something more I never thought. When on a mission, to use those turn-arounds on the highways! I never thought doing that.

But all you have said-uniforms, searching for the distress signal, and so on. Maybe that is why I never had a problem here ten years ago.

I was on a mission, wearing the uniform, and we always told the police who we were/what we were doing.

Flyer

[ol'fido]

Many of these laws and ordinances are essentially nuisance laws. Nobody's going to give you much grief about them unless you're causing a problem or making a nuisance of yourself . Even if you got the world's most anal cop  most prosecutors will not file charges on something like this. Not worth the time or expense. Of course, that's in small town America where we still have some sense

[Al Sayre]

I'd be extremely hesitant to use one of the "official use only" turn-arounds.  Not because I worry about the ticket, but because no CAP vehicle I have ever driven has enough horsepower to get out of its own way, let alone safely accelerate from a dead stop-left turn into highway traffic doing 85 or so in a 70 mph zone.  I've seen way too many cars get run over by semi's attempting that trick to try it myself in a COV.

[SarDragon]

Re: scanners - the cops are worried more about operation on police frequencies than anything else. It's a lesser problem these days because of the different frequency band(s) and trunking radios. Scanner that operate on the frequencies that CAP uses shouldn't be an issue.

[EMT-83]

No thanks, I'll drive the extra miles. Screwing around on the big road is not a good idea.

[SAREXinNY]

I work in law enforcement in NY.  I can tell you it is not a "nuisance law" that is simply on the books and not enforced.  Any scanner, mobile or handheld, that is capable of picking up police frequencies (regardless if you have those frequencies programmed in or not) is illegal to carry in a motor vehicle unless you are a police officer or peace officer, or unless you have specific FCC radio licenses.  Being a CAP member doesn't help unless you have the FCC licenses.  Simply having the scanner in a vehicle is illegal.  It has nothing to do with what you are listening to or broadcasting.  I, personally, don't agree with every aspect of this law...but if you get pulled over by a cop having a bad day you could be in deep poo poo.  It's a crime, a B misdemeanor, not just a simple traffic ticket.

Again, I don't agree with the law.  It's outdated (especially with smart phones).

[Private Investigator]

No thanks, I'll drive the extra miles. Screwing around on the big road is not a good idea.

+1

I was alone on myside of the road at oh dark thirty and the only other car was on the other side decided to do a U- turn in front of me. Expect the unexpected. 

[Brad]

I work in law enforcement in NY.  I can tell you it is not a "nuisance law" that is simply on the books and not enforced.  Any scanner, mobile or handheld, that is capable of picking up police frequencies (regardless if you have those frequencies programmed in or not) is illegal to carry in a motor vehicle unless you are a police officer or peace officer, or unless you have specific FCC radio licenses.  Being a CAP member doesn't help unless you have the FCC licenses.  Simply having the scanner in a vehicle is illegal.  It has nothing to do with what you are listening to or broadcasting.  I, personally, don't agree with every aspect of this law...but if you get pulled over by a cop having a bad day you could be in deep poo poo.  It's a crime, a B misdemeanor, not just a simple traffic ticket.

Again, I don't agree with the law.  It's outdated (especially with smart phones).

I'd guess the license would be an FCC amateur license, as that's the only one I know of that an individual would be able to obtain without a specific requirement to demonstrate a need, i.e. a LMR Part 90 license. Plus this link here from Minnesota specifically mentions an amateur license:

http://pineandlakes.com/stories/120209/news_20091202027.shtml

I have my ham radio set to listen to 121.5, 406, and my fire department as a receive backup for my handheld. It's still classified as a transceiver though, and not a scanner.

I'm curious though to know what the legal definition of "scanner" is in the affected states. Seeing as how there are handheld AM aviation radios that are capable of receiving and transmitting on VHF AM aviation frequencies that are perfectly legal to own, would that be an effective way to avoid getting in trouble with a scanner? I know what the OP is going for, using the handheld to body block or generally monitor the ELT signal on 121.5. So yea, simply investing in a VHF AM aviation radio would probably be the safest route, seeing as how the FCC considers it a transceiver and not a scanner.

[a2capt]

Does the device receive, and presumably, decode, police frequencies?

[SAREXinNY]

In NY, just like in any other state I presume, it is perfectly legal to walk into a radio shack and purchase a mobile or handheld scanner.  The issue comes in when you have that scanner in your vehicle.  As a2capt said, if it is a device able to receive police frequencies it is going to be considered a "scanner" by police.  I've personally dealt with the stupidity of this issue first hand in my professional capacity.  We have local officials, at the County level, who are full time (and paid) Emergency Managers and Fire Coordinators.  They don't fall into the exception in the law, and they are prohibited from having a scanner or radio in their government vehicle and POV.  It is their full time job to respond to emergencies, in a marked vehicle with flashy red lights...and if the police won't let them carry a scanner I don't think our CAP ID card is going to mean squat.

The only exception to the law that I failed to mention in my previous post, is that the County Sheriff can issue permits as well.  In some counties every fire department chief (volunteer and/or paid) gets an exception, along with the Emergency Managers and Fire Coordinators.  In other counties, the Sheriff issues zero permits (at his or her discretion)...and everyone is expected to do their job with a cell phone, or a scanner that is not capable of picking up police channels (like a pre-programmed scanner).

It's been an ongoing issue here in NY for years.  It's an outdated law that needs some updating.

[BillB]

In Florida according to ONE State Attorney a hand held scanner not attached to the vehicle doesn't violate the law. Attach it to the vehicle and you violate the law. Florida also has exceptions to the law. Licensed radio amateurs (any class) along with news media are exempt from the law.

[Woodsy]

In Florida according to ONE State Attorney a hand held scanner not attached to the vehicle doesn't violate the law. Attach it to the vehicle and you violate the law. Florida also has exceptions to the law. Licensed radio amateurs (any class) along with news media are exempt from the law.

Now, if ANYONE should be banned from having them... 

[caphornbuckle]

So what if one was to take off the antenna (and battery pack for some) and stick it in the trunk?  Is it still considered illegal since it is in the vehicle?

[a2capt]

If a scrounging mission looking for a charge .. to hassl,er hold the perp ensues.. then the neutered and muffled scanner might be an issue. However, it may also look just like a hand held radio.

The whole thing sounds like a mess. Though as I said, it probably boils down to does it or does it not receive police frequencies and those are probably encoded these days anyway.

The world used to be so much more fun

I still don't get what the "smart phone" has to do with the law and why it needs to be "updated" because of their existence. Phones are not scanners, and if you mean you can get some app, you can get the same data/feed with a laptop in the car. So it would really be that the law is practically un-enforceable as is and should be re-written that "if you use police communications" to further your crime .. aid your act, whatever.. because they might be potentially available in many ways down to someone offsite listening or even standing lookout sending texts "they're coming, passing 5th & Maple now!"

[Eclipse]

These laws are value-adds.  You're not likely to get stopped for them specifically but they add nicely to the ticket load if you're
doing something else dumb and get pulled over.

I had one in my truck for about 10 years, used it 2 or 3 times for CAP, and pulled it out recently.

This is a simple equation.  If its illegal in your state to have it in your car...

...don't.

[RRLE]

Actual Florida Statute 843.16

843.16 Unlawful to install or transport radio equipment using assigned frequency of state or law enforcement officers; definitions; exceptions; penalties.—

(1) A person, firm, or corporation may not install or transport in any motor vehicle or business establishment, except an emergency vehicle or crime watch vehicle as herein defined or a place established by municipal, county, state, or federal authority for governmental purposes, any frequency modulation radio receiving equipment so adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to police or law enforcement officers or fire rescue personnel of any city or county of the state or to the state or any of its agencies. Provided, nothing herein shall be construed to affect any radio station licensed by the Federal Communications System or to affect any recognized newspaper or news publication engaged in covering the news on a full-time basis or any alarm system contractor certified pursuant to part II of chapter 489, operating a central monitoring system.

(2) As used in this section, the term:
(a) "Emergency vehicle" shall specifically mean:
1. Any motor vehicle used by any law enforcement officer or employee of any city, any county, the state, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or the Armed Forces of the United States while on official business;
2. Any fire department vehicle of any city or county of the state or any state fire department vehicle;
3. Any motor vehicle designated as an emergency vehicle by the Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles when said vehicle is to be assigned the use of frequencies assigned to the state;
4. Any motor vehicle designated as an emergency vehicle by the sheriff or fire chief of any county in the state when said vehicle is to be assigned the use of frequencies assigned to the said county;
5. Any motor vehicle designated as an emergency vehicle by the chief of police or fire chief of any city in the state when said vehicle is to be assigned the use of frequencies assigned to the said city.
(b) "Crime watch vehicle" means any motor vehicle used by any person participating in a citizen crime watch or neighborhood watch program when such program and use are approved in writing by the appropriate sheriff or chief of police where the vehicle will be used and the vehicle is assigned the use of frequencies assigned to the county or city. Such approval shall be renewed annually.

(3) This section does not apply to the following:
(a) Any holder of a valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission.
(b) Any recognized newspaper or news publication engaged in covering the news on a full-time basis.
(c) Any alarm system contractor certified pursuant to part II of chapter 489, operating a central monitoring system.
(d) Any sworn law enforcement officer as defined in s. 943.10 or emergency service employee as defined in s. 496.404 while using personal transportation to and from work.
(e) An employee of a government agency that holds a valid Federal Communications Commission station license or that has a valid agreement or contract allowing access to another agency's radio station.

(4) Any person, firm, or corporation violating any of the provisions of this section commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
History.—ss. 1-4, ch. 26886, 1951; ss. 24, 35, ch. 69-106; s. 1049, ch. 71-136; s. 1, ch. 86-55; s. 1, ch. 90-62; s. 95, ch. 2005-164; s. 1, ch. 2008-70.

The FL AG opinion that several have mentioned:

Florida Scanner Law - Attorney General's Opinion

From: AGO 89-44


Does the installation and operation of police band radio monitors by persons other than radio or television stations violate the provisions of s. 843.16, F.S.?

In sum, I am of the opinion that:

The installation of a police band radio monitor in a business establishment or motor vehicle, except in emergency or crime watch vehicles or in a place established by federal, state, county or municipal government for governmental purposes, by a person other than a radio or television station or a holder of a valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission, violates s. 843.16, F.S.

It is assumed for purposes of this inquiry that a police band radio monitor is frequency modulation radio receiving equipment adjusted or tuned to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to state or local law enforcement agencies.

Section 843.16(1), F.S., provides:

No person, firm, or corporation shall install in any motor vehicle or business establishment, except an emergency vehicle or crime watch vehicle as herein defined or a place established by municipal, county, state, or federal authority for governmental purposes, any frequency modulation radio receiving equipment so adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to police or law enforcement officers of any city or county of the state or to the state or any of its agencies. Provided, nothing herein shall be construed to affect any radio station licensed by the Federal Communications System.

Any person, firm or corporation violating the provisions of s. 843.16, F.S., is guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in ss. 775.082 or 775.083, F.S. (FN1)

The statute thus prohibits the installation of radio equipment using the assigned frequencies of state and local law enforcement officers in business establishments or motor vehicles. The term "installation" is not defined in the statute. However, this office has stated that the term contemplates that the unit be connected to a power source and have need of an external antenna capable of rendering the unit functional. Thus, this office concluded that the elements of "installation," for purposes of s. 843.16, F.S., would be present when:

The radio unit is in some way connected to and dependent upon the motor vehicle's electrical power system; and the radio unit is connected to an independent and external antenna capable of receiving broadcasts of law enforcement agencies.

As to the installation of such equipment in a business establishment, the above-mentioned requirements would likewise apply except that the connection to a power source could be accomplished merely by plugging the unit into an electrical wall outlet. (FN2)

The statute recognizes several exceptions. Emergency vehicles (FN3) and crime watch vehicles (FN4) are expressly excluded from the statute. (FN5) Places established by the state, county, municipal or federal government for governmental purposes are also exempted. (FN6)

Section 843.16, F.S., provides that nothing contained therein shall be construed to affect any radio station licensed by the Federal Communications System. (FN7) This office has stated that this exemption applies to television stations as well as to radio stations. (FN8) In addition, holders of valid amateur radio operator or station licenses issued by the Federal Communications Commission are expressly exempted from the terms of the statute. (FN9)

Accordingly, I am of the opinion that if such radio equipment is installed in a nonemergency or noncrime watch motor vehicle or in a business establishment which is not a place established by municipal, county, state or federal authorities for governmental purposes, the installation by a person other than a radio or television station or holder of a valid amateur radio operator or station license issued by the Federal Communications Commission, violates s. 843.16, F.S.

Sincerely,


Robert A. Butterworth Attorney General

[caphornbuckle]

So it appears that if one has an amateur radio license, it's okay to use a scanner in Florida.  Is it the same in NY?

It's actually not that hard to get an amateur license so obtaining one would seem to solve the problem, in my opinion.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Specifically for Brad, but to others wondering whether the scanner is to body block:

Using a scanner works much better than DF with a DF such as an L-Per in a big city like New York, because using an L-Per will direct you to reflections. In a city block, you will find fences, electric lines, and all other sorts of metal items that conduct the signal.

You use the scanner to de-tune and listen for signal quality.

After you are directed to the general signal area and acquiring signal on 121.5, you de-tune, to something like 121 and again listen for signal until it is clearer. Then again de-tune and keep repeating the process. It may be similar to using the L-Per and squelching it as you get near and near the signal source.

This method has served me and many others in one of the biggest US cities for a long time in both tone and carrier-only searches: New York City.

Flyer

[RiverAux]

In regards to the FL statute that was posted, one might argue that CAP could fall into the exemption for the Armed Forces.  It would require some stretching since we aren't actual "employees" even though we are acting for the Armed Forces. 

[JoeTomasone]

Having lived in both states, here's my interpretation:

NY: Unless you're a ham, you have no defense. 

FL: You have a few outs:


"radio receiving equipment so adjusted or tuned as to receive messages or signals on frequencies assigned by the Federal Communications Commission to police or law enforcement officers or fire rescue personnel of any city or county of the state or to the state or any of its agencies."

--If it's not tuned to/programmed for those groups, you can argue thusly.


(a) "Emergency vehicle" shall specifically mean:
1. Any motor vehicle used by any law enforcement officer or employee of any city, any county, the state, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or the Armed Forces of the United States while on official business;


-- As mentioned before, if you are on an AFAM, you are acting under the AUX ON umbrella and can argue as such as well.

-- Get your ham radio license. 

[Brad]

Specifically for Brad, but to others wondering whether the scanner is to body block:

Using a scanner works much better than DF with a DF such as an L-Per...

Yep! In fact when I did my Mission Observer trainining, since it was a combined Mission Pilot / Mission Observer class, one of the tasks for the aircrew was to know how to DF an ELT on the ground, i.e. if we end up landing at the airport before the ground team gets there. Saves resources.

Our instructor didn't let us use LPERs though, since that normally isn't found on an aircraft. Instead, we were to use Airband AM handhelds and we body-blocked our way around the flightline and hangars until we found it. Correction, we did have an LPER, but we took the antenna assenbly off and substitued a rubber duck to serve as another simple omni-receiver.

So it's always a good idea to know the capabilities of your equipment and how to use them in a pinch, but also be aware of the laws related to them.