Repercussions of calling your pants "trousers" when you got to Basic.....

[Hawk200]

How many people have gone to Air Force Basic training, and referred to a BDU shirt as a "blouse", a hat as a "cover", called full Service Dress "Class A's", etc. and got into trouble for it? As in the TI ripped you a new one?

Kinda curious. Many people seem to think that it's OK to call these items by terminology used by services other than the Air Force. What I'm wondering is how many former cadets went Air Force and ended up with a rude surprise.

Members that have gone to other services are invite to share their stories, but I'm only looking for the Air Force votes for the poll. It's probably not very scientific, but I'm curious how many experiences will show those habits as good or bad.

[Major Lord]

In California, the encampment is responsible for much of the misinformation Cadets take into whatever branch of service they enter. Everything from the "reporting statement", uniform wear and terminology, etc has been created  from a hodgepodge of oral traditions drawn from various services, television, wishful thinking, etc. I believe encampments should move away from their traditions and create a more Air Force- like program, modeled after either AF basic Military Training, or the Air Force Academy. I don't think that either of those groups have to make their socks "smile" ( CAWG people, you know what I am talking about!)

Capt. Lord

[Hawk200]

I think it's everywhere. Some might be our own faults, we're just too lazy to do it the right way.

[PHall]

In California, the encampment is responsible for much of the misinformation Cadets take into whatever branch of service they enter. Everything from the "reporting statement", uniform wear and terminology, etc has been created  from a hodgepodge of oral traditions drawn from various services, television, wishful thinking, etc. I believe encampments should move away from their traditions and create a more Air Force- like program, modeled after either AF basic Military Training, or the Air Force Academy. I don't think that either of those groups have to make their socks "smile" ( CAWG people, you know what I am talking about!)

Capt. Lord

Why?   We're not trying to recreate Air Force BMT, or Army Basic, or Navy Boot, or Marine Corps Basic.

The stuff we use is stuff that has been proven to work for us in the big Leadership Labratory called Encampment.
The exact measurements for the rolled T-shirts and socks is a tool we use to help teach attention to detail.
The Air Force does the exact same thing with the six inch square T-shirts.

Last time I looked, the purpose of encampment wasn't to prepare cadets for military basic training.

[Major Carrales]

I guess it depends on what we are trying to accomplish. 

If the idea is to make CAP a recruiting venue for solely the USAF then USAF culture should be taught.  If the idea is that they are Civil Air Patrol cadets being molded into good citizens in CAP...then what?

I'm afraid I don't understand what sort of answers you are looking for?

[Eagle400]

Last time I looked, the purpose of encampment wasn't to prepare cadets for military basic training.

I think what Capt Lord is trying to say is that some of the traditions that are used at encampment contradict what is taught at Air Force BMT.  Not that encampment should be used to prepare cadets for BMT.  I think MEPS does a better job preparing people for BMT than CAP encampments do (though that's just from observation - I've been through encampment but not MEPS).  However, I do have friends who have been through MEPS.  

I remember in AFROTC, there were differences in drill, reporting procedures, and even customs and courtesies.  For drill, "left, right, left" was taboo (it's "hup two three four") and reporting required 2 knocks on the commander's door, not one.  Road guard procedures were totally different than what I had been taught, and it was taboo to address an NCO as "sergeant."

I felt frustrated that CAP, the auxiliary of the USAF, had taught me things that contradicted what the Air Force teaches.  CAP uses the same drill and ceremonies manual as the Air Force, so there should be no problems there.  As far as NCO's being addressed as "sir" and "ma'am", well, I'm still trying to figure that one out.  I think the "sirs and ma'ams for everyone" is for training purposes only, but I don't know.

If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it should be a DUCK!  As it stands today, the Air Force is the duck and CAP is more like a goose.        

[Sgt. Savage]

On topic but also aside, I went to Army Infantry OSUT. We didn't have time to call anything by the wrong name and we spent most of our time being chewed out anyway. Everything we did was wrong until we graduated.

[jimmydeanno]

PHall and Maj Corrales, you guys hit it right on the head - the purpose of the encampment isn't to prepare cadets for service but to teach them things that will make them better citizens. 

Folding things certain ways and putting things in certain orders requires an attention to detail that most kids lack.

Having specific names for things and having everyone calling them that aides in communication.

Requiring that someone follow a predetermined set of instructions aides in communication attention to detail and building discipline.

Drill teaches teamwork, discipline and attention to detail.

The exact way that it is done (measurements and such, or what things are called by whomever) aren't what is important because everyone is going to have a different way of doing it and as long as we teach the cadets those skills, that is what is important, not whether the shirt is 5 inches or 6 inches, but that they can read the instructions and have enough discipline to do it the right way.

I don't think it really matters that CAP encampments don't teach the AF BMT way of doing things because a) not all the cadets are going to join the military, b) not all the cadets are going to join the AF, c) it's not the purpose of encampment.

Let the military train their personnel how they want their personnel trained, we are not military instructors and 99.9% of us have never been trained on how to train in the 'military way.'

back on topic though - I just finished talking to my wife, who has been to BMT and she said that no one in her flight was ever 'chewed out' for calling something by the incorrect term because everyone called it by the correct name.  That is what they were taught and there was no outside influence to tell them otherwise.  It was just a game of 'when in Rome.'

[Eclipse]

One of the reasons this happens is that we recruit people from all the services, interact more with other services in training environments, and will accept billeting anyplace a commander is distracted enough to let us plant our flag.
So they bring their traditions and terminology with them.

You can go through any number of websites, DoD publications, and classes and find variations of these and other terms.

In NE ILWG, if it happens on a military base, its at Great Lakes, Navy, so their CMJ (colorful military jargon) is going to creep into our communications, if only because we have to learn to "talk like the locals" so they understand us.

I've spent time there, Scott, Guard bases, and other mil-spec facilities, and the only place this seems to be an issue is boards like this (and that includes the Class A vs. Service Dress nonsense, too)...

[capchiro]

Well, a long time ago in another galaxie, while attending basic (Army) someone confused their gun with their rifle and that certainly led to some interesting physical reinforcement as to which was which.  Ahhh such good memories...

[Capt M. Sherrod]

Who wants to watch Full Metal Jacket....   

[Skyray]

Well, a long time ago in another galaxie, while attending basic (Army) someone confused their gun with their rifle and that certainly led to some interesting physical reinforcement as to which was which.  Ahhh such good memories...

"This is for fighting; this is for fun."

[Hawk200]

I'm a little puzzled that we don't have anyone that's gone to Air Force Basic. I figured there would be a few handfuls at least.

[Hawk200]

Why?   We're not trying to recreate Air Force BMT, or Army Basic, or Navy Boot, or Marine Corps Basic.

The stuff we use is stuff that has been proven to work for us in the big Leadership Labratory called Encampment.
The exact measurements for the rolled T-shirts and socks is a tool we use to help teach attention to detail.
The Air Force does the exact same thing with the six inch square T-shirts.

Last time I looked, the purpose of encampment wasn't to prepare cadets for military basic training.

You're right, we're not trying to duplicate the Air Force BMT. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Civil Air Patrol is based on Air Force culture, not Army, not Navy, not Marine Corps. We should not be throwing other service jargon in there, it's inappropriate.

If a sailor transfers to the Army, then he is expected to know Army language, his or her old Nazy lingo isn't acceptable anymore. The former sailor wearing Army uniform that says, "I gotto go to the head." is going to get the response of "You gotta go where?". And that's just non-operational lingo. What happens if he passes on information using Navy language in an Army operational setting? I can imagine that it won't be pleasant, especially if your commander gets a butt-chewing because of it.

We should expect the same thing of CAP members. Teach those with prior service experience that this is a new uniform. Some of the old will apply, but there is new stuff to learn.

[Al Sayre]

Y'all be sure to heave to the quarterdeck at 6 bells durng the morning watch to read the POD and get all the scuttlebutt. 

[ColonelJack]

Y'all be sure to heave to the quarterdeck at 6 bells durng the morning watch to read the POD and get all the scuttlebutt. 

Is that before or after our grog ration in the wardroom?

Jack

[Major Carrales]

Why?   We're not trying to recreate Air Force BMT, or Army Basic, or Navy Boot, or Marine Corps Basic.

The stuff we use is stuff that has been pr oven to work for us in the big Leadership Laboratory called Encampment.
The exact measurements for the rolled T-shirts and socks is a tool we use to help teach attention to detail.
The Air Force does the exact same thing with the six inch square T-shirts.

Last time I looked, the purpose of encampment wasn't to prepare cadets for military basic training.

You're right, we're not trying to duplicate the Air Force BMT. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Civil Air Patrol is based on Air Force culture, not Army, not Navy, not Marine Corps. We should not be throwing other service jargon in there, it's inappropriate.

If a sailor transfers to the Army, then he is expected to know Army language, his or her old Nay lingo isn't acceptable anymore. The former sailor wearing Army uniform that says, "I Giotto go to the head." is going to get the response of "You gotta go where?". And that's just non-operational lingo. What happens if he passes on information using Navy language in an Army operational setting? I can imagine that it won't be pleasant, especially if your commander gets a butt-chewing because of it.

We should expect the same thing of CAP members. Teach those with prior service experience that this is a new uniform. Some of the old will apply, but there is new stuff to learn.

There is a fallacy in your logic.  If a Navy person has to change their lingo when they transfer to the Army because they are now in the Army, then a Civil Air Patrol person who used NAVY, MARINE, USAF or ARMY lingo should, by your logic, adopt to CAP culture.

Fact is, even though there is a USAF auxiliary aspect, there is a growing movement (based on diffusing elements from all services and non-prior service CAP Officers, toward an evolving CAP culture.  CAP Distinctive uniforms, growing "traditional observances" at encampments and lots of local practices.

Simply put, unless the USAF takes over CAP and assigns an Officer or NCO to each unit to insure we are "developing USAF CULTURE" it will not happen.  I mean, even in our unit, the nearest USAF base is hours away and the dominant military culture is NAVY with lots of ARMY.  Now, how should an isolated unit that forms miles away learn this culture?  A book?  That is a dilemma.

I think you need to rethink your point...I know what you are trying to maintain, but there is the afore mentioned fallacy.

[Hawk200]

There is a fallacy in your logic.  If a Navy person has to change their lingo when they transfer to the Army because they are now in the Army, then a Civil Air Patrol person who used NAVY, MARINE, USAF or ARMY lingo should, by your logic, adopt to CAP culture.

No fallacy at all in the simple logic. I had to adapt to the Army when I transferred from the Air Force, and others should do the same. It is appropriate for a member joining CAP to learn CAP terminology, and the CAP way of doing things. It also means that they shouldn't be trying to muddle through Army, Navy, and Marine Corps terminology.

The same applies to members coming from the Air Force. We are based on an Air Force culture, but there are things that are unique to CAP that need to be learned. Some stuff from the Air Force may not apply, either. Therefore it should not be used.

Using, and allowing the use of non-CAP terms, jargon, and operating procedure doesn't benefit CAP. It turns us into a military wannabe mongrel. I don't know about you, but I have enough respect for myself, and the Civil Air Patrol membership not to humor such practices.

[Eclipse]

Fact is, even though there is a USAF auxiliary aspect, there is a growing movement (based on diffusing elements from all services and non-prior service CAP Officers, toward an evolving CAP culture.  CAP Distinctive uniforms, growing "traditional observances" at encampments and lots of local practices.

I think its well-documented that people have been "making stuff up" in CAP for decades, there have been distinctive uniforms for years, and bozo moves at encampments since day one.

It has nothing to do with an emerging trend, nor will assigning some kind of USAF-Stazi "fix" the problem.

Much of it stems from poorly informed, inexperienced, gung-ho members who watch too many movies. No more, or less.

It is propagated by commanders who see the issues but refuse to act because of "tradition" or a simple lack of desire to engage in uncomfortable conversations.

Just question some encampment silliness here or on CS, you'll get jumped on by the old-schoolers who think an encampment isn't done until someone cries, etc., Its the willingness of the leaders in that particular change to force people to follow the rules that will determine whether change happens, and ultimately we all report to the same officer.

But when HEADCAP starts telling people how its going to be, we all squawk like 4-year olds with a toy taken away.

Bottom line, in an organization with 10,000 rules, none but the most serious enforceable in any meaningful way without the 2b option, and a culture of "you're lucky I showed up at all..", stuff is going to happen the way it does.

So I guess maybe we do have a culture "you're lucky I showed up at all..."   

[Major Carrales]

The same applies to members coming from the Air Force. We are based on an Air Force culture, but there are things that are unique to CAP that need to be learned. Some stuff from the Air Force may not apply, either. Therefore it should not be used.

Remarkable?!  Now, where can a new bloke find all these conventions? What are these conventions? How is one to judge?  Who is going to make those judgements?  And how are you going to enforce it all?

[Major Carrales]

I think its well-documented that people have been "making stuff up" in CAP for decades, there have been distinctive uniforms for years, and bozo moves at encampments since day one.

It has nothing to do with an emerging trend, nor will assigning some kind of USAF-Stazi "fix" the problem.

Oh...I'm not saying it' new.  And I am no advocate of the USAF coming in and establishing the "US CAP Ministry of Love" (that is our old deployed friend DNALL who advocates for that)

I recall at CadetStuff a huge deal was made because some persons were violating uniform regs...to the point of being rude, incredulous and down right unbecoming.  Yet, a NY Wing tradition of Cadets and CAP Officers exchanging insignia was proudly posted...blatantly wrong and much more ridiculous than any of the "offending posts" in the other thread...went unchallenged?

Traditions...unique CAP traditions.   Of the type mentioned here and common place at encampments, local units and (sometimes) systemwide.  Is that part of US CAP culture?

[Hawk200]

Remarkable?!  Now, where can a new bloke find all these conventions? What are these conventions? How is one to judge?  Who is going to make those judgements?  And how are you going to enforce it all?

They should find them at the squadrons. Your squadron, my squadron, other members squadrons.

It doesn't require a whole lot of judgement to sit down, read a pub, and use what's in it. Show me in 39-1 where it says a BDU top is referred to as a "blouse". You can't. If you can, I expect page, paragraph and line number. Same with a "cover" as headgear. And show where it says that service dress is a "Class A" or a "Dress Alpha". Those aren't in there. And then there's the issue of cadets that think that they have to starch their hats to a cardboard stiffness. I only know of one place in the US military where that's not just a practice, it's expected (at least as far as those personnel have told me). But it's not a requirement for our members.

I have just re-read the manual. It does call blue slacks "trousers". My mistake, and now I have been a perfect example of things being done the wrong way. Yes, I'm saying I was wrong. I didn't read it thoroughly.

As far enforcing it? I should enforce it within my sphere of influence. As should you.

And Major Carrales, you have a signature line that says: "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!". I'm not asking you to do anything that you don't already want.

We have standards, we have publications, we have specific criteria on how to do things. What's so strange about expecting people to follow the directives that they claim to uphold?

[Major Carrales]

And Major Carrales, you have a signature line that says: "We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!". I'm not asking you to do anything that you don't already want.

Reality...reality is what limits all.  In reality there are Senior Squadrons where USAF style uniforms are not even seen once a year in favor of golf shirts and grey pants.  Where the idea of "trousers" or "pants," "covers" or "BDU caps,"  and "Class A" or "minimum service dress" means nothing.

In reality, CAPM 39-1 is not as important as CAPR 60-1 and 60-3.  In reality, CAP units on the frontier with no USAF culture and a stack of regs are not going to be able to implement USAF culture as you see it.

In reality...units run as informally as they can.

I would love to attend a "high speed low drag" unit where we began with formation and did all that.  But, most units that are not CADET SPECIFIC units do not operate that way.

We do have the power to change CAP, and shame on you for insinuating that I don't do my part. 

In reality, most units that meet far from USAF bases do not have that "culture" and, if I may be so bold, those they try to maintain it are pariahs for "playing soldier."  Now, what do you want me to say? 

[Hawk200]

In reality, CAPM 39-1 is not as important as CAPR 60-1 and 60-3. 

Ahh, selective integrity. Sure, why not? So who makes the judgement on which pub is more important than any other? I guess that makes you the judge in your sphere of influence.

In reality...units run as informally as they can.

Agreed. I've known a few that only met one Saturday a month. Kinda defeats the purpose of a reg that states that "The local unit normally meets weekly for approximately 2½ hours."

But it doesn't really matter, does it? Since 60-1 and 60-3 are more important.

I would love to attend a "high speed low drag" unit where we began with formation and did all that.  But, most units that are not CADET SPECIFIC units do not operate that way.

The few senior units I've attended had a roll call. Not necessarily a formation, but same purpose. Then again, 52-16 doesn't actually call for a formation, the word isn't even in the manual. Maybe it's time to write it in, eh?

We do have the power to change CAP, and shame on you for insinuating that I don't do my part. 

I made no such insinuation. I pointed out that you were already doing what I suggested. I'm fairly certain that you chose to be offended, and claim injury.

In reality, most units that meet far from USAF bases do not have that "culture" and, if I may be so bold, those they try to maintain it are pariahs for "playing soldier."  Now, what do you want me to say? 

"Pariahs"? I've been in a couple units that are away from bases, and they've never been treated as pariahs. Quite the opposite. The communities I've ever dealt with have never had any problems with CAP units, and seem to think that it's an excellent program "for the kids".

What do I want you to say? Nothing. What would I like you to do? Follow all the regulations. Enforce them uniformly (to include uniforms).  Or leave.

I can honestly say I was bit surprised on what I found typing your name into a search engine. And not all of it reflected well on someone that's a CAP Public Affairs officer.

[Major Carrales]

Well, Well, Well...what can I say? 

I have no real idea what your "angle" is, and I really don't care.  Often, I make certain observations and state points that are not my own.  The idea is to spur on debate for the purpose of solving problems.

Occasionally, there is a Threadster that will take the ad hominem personal attack route; most likely for the purpose of of "off setting" that person's emotional state...or maybe cause they ran out of legitimate arguments and attacked "the man" instead of the "idea."

I'm just going to chalk this up to misunderstanding and apologize for any offense or perceived offense I may have caused you.  I will likely not reply to any more of your posts, I will read them...they will make me think.  But I grow tired to the "salvos" people exchange here and at other places.  I will leave you with this apology and hopefull as friends.

Be well...SEMPER VIGILANS!!!

[ADCAPer]

Occasionally, there is a Threadster that will take the ad hominem personal attack route; most likely for the purpose of of "off setting" that person's emotional state...or maybe cause they ran out of legitimate arguments and attacked "the man" instead of the "idea."
Be well...SEMPER VIGILANS!!!

I believe that if you'll re-read your original post that there is no room for misunderstanding. You claim that some regulations are "not as important" as others, and now someone has called you on your miscue.

If there is a misunderstanding here it appears to be with your assumption that some regulations rate higher than others, which is nothing more than your personal opinion.

[floridacyclist]

Occasionally, there is a Threadster that will take the ad hominem personal attack route; most likely for the purpose of of "off setting" that person's emotional state...or maybe cause they ran out of legitimate arguments and attacked "the man" instead of the "idea."
Be well...SEMPER VIGILANS!!!

I believe that if you'll re-read your original post that there is no room for misunderstanding. You claim that some regulations are "not as important" as others, and now someone has called you on your miscue.

If there is a misunderstanding here it appears to be with your assumption that some regulations rate higher than others, which is nothing more than your personal opinion.

I think Maj Carrales was responding to the remark about typing his name into a search engine at this point.

As for treating some regs as more important than other, isn't that how most people treat the law itself? Follow the laws they like and ignore or bend the ones they don't?

Funny how most people wear a seatbelt ("Because it's the law") which I see as a victimless crime, yet some (not most, but a sizable few) think nothing of blowing past the speed limit like it's "merely a suggestion".

I remember my 5yo asking me how I knew what laws to break and which ones to follow....I asked him what he meant and he said that I was doing 65 in a 55. I had no asnwer for him so I slowed down....for good.

[Major Carrales]

Occasionally, there is a Threadster that will take the ad hominem personal attack route; most likely for the purpose of of "off setting" that person's emotional state...or maybe cause they ran out of legitimate arguments and attacked "the man" instead of the "idea."
Be well...SEMPER VIGILANS!!!

I believe that if you'll re-read your original post that there is no room for misunderstanding. You claim that some regulations are "not as important" as others, and now someone has called you on your miscue.

If there is a misunderstanding here it appears to be with your assumption that some regulations rate higher than others, which is nothing more than your personal opinion.

The idea was as floridacyclist states it.  However, that issue is resolved between myself and HAWK via PM, thus it is ended.

However, if you read my original post as a whole instead of "out of context" it says...

Reality...reality is what limits all.   In reality there are Senior Squadrons where USAF style uniforms are not even seen once a year in favor of golf shirts and grey pants.  Where the idea of "trousers" or "pants," "covers" or "BDU caps,"  and "Class A" or "minimum service dress" means nothing.

In reality, CAPM 39-1 is not as important as CAPR 60-1 and 60-3.  In reality, CAP units on the frontier with no USAF culture and a stack of regs are not going to be able to implement USAF culture as you see it.

In reality...units run as informally as they can.

I would love to attend a "high speed low drag" unit where we began with formation and did all that.  But, most units that are not CADET SPECIFIC units do not operate that way.

We do have the power to change CAP, and shame on you for insinuating that I don't do my part. 

In reality, most units that meet far from USAF bases do not have that "culture" and, if I may be so bold, those they try to maintain it are pariahs for "playing soldier."  Now, what do you want me to say? 

This was an observation of practices see in CAP units of which I am familiar,  not my personal opinion or paradigm.

[ADCAPer]

However, if you read my original post as a whole instead of "out of context" it says...

In reality, CAPM 39-1 is not as important as CAPR 60-1 and 60-3.  In reality, CAP units on the frontier with no USAF culture and a stack of regs are not going to be able to implement USAF culture as you see it.

OK, I re-read it, and your statement is perfectly clear. You said that CAPM 39-1 is not as important as CAPR 60-1 and 60-3.

The fact is that unless you have something in writing that makes a particuler exception, no particular national regulation rates any higher than any other national regulation, you are supposed to be following them all.

If you don't like what a regulation says you can follow the process to have it changed, but you don't get to simply ignore it.

[Major Carrales]

If you don't like what a regulation says you can follow the process to have it changed, but you don't get to simply ignore it.

Who said I ignore it?  Who said I advocate ignoring it?  No one. 

My point is that many people do find the subjects of CAPR 60-1 and 60-3 to be more important than "where one puts pins on a mess dress uniform."    What we debate is "supposed to be does" not alter the REALITY that there are those that think that way.

The REALITY is that there are people that believe that way...I didn't say I did.

You're just being argumentative...

This was an observation of practices see in CAP units of which I am familiar,  not my personal opinion or paradigm.

[Pumbaa]