Aircraft Missing Since 2006 Located With Help From Google Earth

[Pingree1492]

 :clap:  Wow!  Outstanding info so far us11cav.  You've obviously done your research and have taken a very thorough approach.  My condolences that it was necessary.

Most of what you have discussed so far has been very eye-opening.  I've been involved in many searches here in the mountains that the aircraft wasn't found until months later, after the snow melted.  I'm not sure that having any of the information you mentioned would have helped in those cases, but maybe it will next time.

So, Ranger75, you see here a glimpse of the process we used to pull in information, but the discussion wouldn't be complete without mentioning the role our website, www.N2700Q.com, played in opening the door to facilitate receiving offered information. Hundreds of tips, and inquiries from interested parties wishing to help, came into us through the website. Some of it was prompted by the posters and fliers we distributed throughout the SA, and some by media reporters who included the site url in their news articles or on their station's website. It was an indispensable tool for gathering and sharing information.

Which begs this question: Why hasn't CAP made it SOP to set up a website for every search? A standard national website address, with backslash\[tail number] for each incident would be easy to establish, and simple to understand. We note an inconsistency in the web-technology CAP does use, in that each wing's website is different. Contact numbers are not always clearly posted, nor are people there to answer the phone--understandable given your limited budgets, but is there a better way?

Standardized websites and a national hotline might not be the answer but it seems worthy of your consideration. Two-way lines of communication seem to go right to the heart of CAPR-60-3 1-12: Managing the Mission. This excerpt from 12-1.d seems especially appropriate in light of what I've offered here (and hope to offer in future posts):

"...Small pieces of information often fit together to form a more complete picture. The mission situation should be re-evaluated with each new bit of information. Assessment of gathered information is a never-ending cycle..."

A great suggestion- certainly something that bears more consideration.  What is posted, and how information is collected and distributed would need to be thought out carefully as we wouldn't want to "taint" (sorry, can't think of a better word) any witness that would be posting to the site, or that we would talk to later. 

Also, as always, it comes down to a time, resources and expertise problem.  A big (geographically) and long search always puts a strain on our resources, both the actual searchers and staff.  We have a lot of people who do the search part well, but we probably have too few like you who are willing and able to put in the investigative work to a mission. 

Again, great discussion, keep the comments coming!  This has certainly added tools to my toolbox- with perfect timing for what will probably be a busy summer season.

[RiverAux]

Why hasn't CAP made it SOP to set up a website for every search?

The primary reason is that most searches are over in less than a week so setting up a website and publisizing it in that time frame isn't going to be practical.  Advertising a phone number as part of the CAP public affairs efforts relating to the search is going to be sufficent most of the time. 

A secondary reason is that CAP's web development resources are quite limited in many states.  Quite a few states are only barely able to keep an up-to-date wing web page.  However, this could be addressed by soliciting web help from CAP members nationwide.  We're getting better at "thinking outside the Wing" in that way, but it still needs work.

That being said, having a permanent national-level web site devoted to missing aircraft search clue solicitation is not a bad idea.  We would want a unique domain name that is easy to advertise.  I could see listing all suspended searches along with basic information about each. 

[wuzafuzz]

Why hasn't CAP made it SOP to set up a website for every search?

The primary reason is that most searches are over in less than a week so setting up a website and publisizing it in that time frame isn't going to be practical.  Advertising a phone number as part of the CAP public affairs efforts relating to the search is going to be sufficent most of the time. 

A secondary reason is that CAP's web development resources are quite limited in many states.  Quite a few states are only barely able to keep an up-to-date wing web page.  However, this could be addressed by soliciting web help from CAP members nationwide.  We're getting better at "thinking outside the Wing" in that way, but it still needs work.

That being said, having a permanent national-level web site devoted to missing aircraft search clue solicitation is not a bad idea.  We would want a unique domain name that is easy to advertise.  I could see listing all suspended searches along with basic information about each.

I like the idea of a permanent site for active CAP searches and missions.  Something with an EASY to remember and type domain name (good for PAO sound bites), that is kind of a dashboard for current activity.  Something like www.capsearch.org so folks listening can actually remember it until they reach the computer.

Imagine a publicly accessible main page with links to active searches, etc. so nationwide we can always send people to the same site.  Provide basic info and allow visitors to submit information to search managers using contact info or email links.  Not a forum, since you don't want all visitors to see each others' tips.

I'm no expert at this stuff, but I bet a dynamic site with security would permit IC's or their staff to make entries in a database that populates the national website within minutes.  No web authoring skills needed.  Post some basic info on the search, contact info for tips, and perhaps a few photos.  It would be similar in concept to the wildland fire websites that post incident updates.  One example: http://www.inciweb.org/

We KNOW the technology is out there.  Making it happen would be relatively doable, integrating it into procedures would probably be the hardest part.

[Gunner C]

Why hasn't CAP made it SOP to set up a website for every search?

That being said, having a permanent national-level web site devoted to missing aircraft search clue solicitation is not a bad idea.  We would want a unique domain name that is easy to advertise.  I could see listing all suspended searches along with basic information about each.

Excellent idea!

[us11cav]

Gentlemen,
On this day (which has special meaning for this old warhorse) I am deeply gratified to see your responses. My hope that you'd apply the same fearlessness and focus you maintain in the cockpit to the issue of suspended searches--or "cold cases"--seems well founded, at least in this forum.

Granted, a national website (or page on the national CAP website) can't be done in a day, but if right now, on Memorial Day, someone began a thread (or topic w/sub-threads?) dedicated to gathering/sharing information on unsolved cases, it would be significant in several ways.

1. It would serve as an interrim "holding area" if a web-page were later launched.
2. It would reinforce the notion of CAP as more than a "collective" of wings, i.e., if a CAP member in Alabama has an idea (or question) on a cold-case in Oregon, then he or she can participate.
3. It would say to CAP members (and anyone interested) that Semper Vigilans truly means "Always on Watch."

As a guest here, I won't start a thread, but I'll continue to post here (and elsewhere as appropriate) with whatever lessons I can glean from the case of N2700Q.

I'll close with a couple of fine excerpts from your posts in another thread, and ask that we remember the fallen:

...I was at the Air Force Academy today. They have pictures of graduates who are MIA from Vietnam. I think it is 3 or 4 men -- pictures and bios -- encased in glass right in front of the lounge at Hap Arnold Hall. No Academy Cadet can enter or exit without seeing this display. The mystery of these men weighs upon every Air Force cadet -- if just a little everyday. I'm sure that those that loved them, their family's and sweethearts wonder everyday.

Maj. General John Curry once said; "It is our duty to find the lost both the living and the dead... so they are lost no more." What a magnificent legacy it is, that makes these words true. It is one of the reasons that I love the Civil Air Patrol...

As a former IC, I can think of no more difficult duty than telling family members that we're giving up.  I never did, but golly, can you imagine the pain in their hearts that the searchers are giving up when  family members still have so much hope in your hearts? ...

[Gunner C]

I wonder if there will be more suspended searches that otherwise might have been carried on another day or so when the latest budget cuts his 1 Oct?

[RiverAux]

Granted, a national website (or page on the national CAP website) can't be done in a day, but if right now, on Memorial Day, someone began a thread (or topic w/sub-threads?) dedicated to gathering/sharing information on unsolved cases, it would be significant in several ways.

That could be somewhat problematical as technically release of such information would have to be approved by the Inicident Commander.  No one is going to get tossed out for saying "I remember this 1997 missing airplane that we never found in California....", but still I'm not sure its a great idea to try to do here. 

[us11cav]

..that could be somewhat problematical as technically release of such information would have to be approved by the Inicident Commander...

Point taken (though I might have a hard time explaining that to a family member). It also illustrates the whole "attitudinal problem" we ran into during our search for N2700Q. The notion that potentially critical information, gathered with the help of public funds, is "privileged" is very familiar to us. We believe it is used too often as a crutch by administrative people who are either too afraid or too lazy to lift a finger and help.

Perhaps some right-thinking people in CAP will step up and confront this issue. Perhaps not, and CAP will remain open to criticism that it is disconnected with its "shareholders."

For now, I suggest that posting the basic facts of a missing aircraft (i.e., that which is already public knowledge) is a good start. People participating in that thread may then opt to share--via PM--facts/questions they feel uncertain about disclosing publicly. It's not a perfect solution but as I said, at least it's a start.

The bottom line should be the same mantra we used throughout our own long journey: "Find the aircraft."

[RiverAux]

Quote from: RiverAux on Today at 11:01:48 AM
..that could be somewhat problematical as technically release of such information would have to be approved by the Inicident Commander...

Point taken (though I might have a hard time explaining that to a family member). It also illustrates the whole "attitudinal problem" we ran into during our search for N2700Q. The notion that potentially critical information, gathered with the help of public funds, is "privileged" is very familiar to us. We believe it is used too often as a crutch by administrative people who are either too afraid or too lazy to lift a finger and help.

I didn't say that it couldn't be done, just that there are official channels for this sort of thing that CAP members are supposed to use.  Such procedures are in place for many reasons, one of which is family protection. 

[us11cav]

I didn't say that it couldn't be done..

I like your attitude here, RiverAux.

... just that there are official channels for this sort of thing that CAP members are supposed to use.  Such procedures are in place for many reasons, one of which is family protection.

If it's not too much trouble, could you expand on those official channels and procedures--perhaps even quote the regs--so we can get a better perspective on how this works (or not) within the greater context of CAP as it exists to serve both its Mission and the taxpayers (respectful of GunnerC's comments re: budget cuts)?

With regard to "family protection," we believe--from personal experience--this objective could better be served in a proactive manner rather than a labyrinthine system of regs and roadblocks. Why not appoint a "family liaison" from among the CAP ranks, in every "extended" search, to act as an advocate/navigator/interface? (This should not be an IC or wing commander, but someone with knowledge and authority to bridge the gap.)

GunnerC's comment about budget cuts should be seen not as a threat, but as a wake-up call. These are difficult times, and your shareholders are watching. I respectfully suggest this is an opportunity to not only reaffirm your committment to excellence, but demonstrate your willingness to be self-critical, to think outside the box, to use 21st century tools, and to build a more responsive, cohesive agency that will be the envy of SAR groups worldwide.

[RiverAux]

There are abundant citations relating to release of mission information.  The easiest ones to find are in CAPR 60-3

1-7. Information Releases. Information that is releasable on CAP missions should be given promptly to news media representatives. All CAP incident commanders will coordinate press releases with the agency being supported (AFRCC, AFNSEP, FEMA, etc.). In addition to keeping the public informed, releasing certain information could lead to public assistance in reporting data that may assist in search or other CAP missions.

4-9. Media Briefings. Regularly scheduled media briefings should be planned, especially on highly visible missions like missing aircraft searches or when providing disaster support. The local news media can often support you and provide useful tools for information gathering if utilized properly, but personnel conducting press briefings should be careful not to release sensitive information until properly coordinated and approved

[Ranger75]

I continue to read the entries to this thread with interest and wish to offer a number of random comments.

•   us11cav correctly notes the primary responsibility of the Planning Section Chief (PSC) to gather and interpret all available information to focus the search effort.  Most important is his referring to the intelligence function as both a push and pull task.  It is not uncommon that, at the initiation of a mission, the multitude of simultaneous demands including definition of the initial mission parameters, alerting and assembling mission resources, and beginning search operations comes at the cost of deferring intelligence gathering to a secondary consideration.  The lesson I have drawn from my own experience is that, as the IC, I must strive to fence the PSC from the turmoil of the startup chaos to permit him to focus on the planning task. 

•   Us11cav  --  I appreciate your recounting of your outreach activities to potential sources.  A number of those identified had not come to my mind.  While I appreciate that the circumstances associated with each mission are unique, I have been able to expand my own checklist to incorporate consideration of contacting a growing number of other agencies or groups.

•   A number of the comments posted to this topic, and us11cav's personal interests, relate to the continuation of efforts beyond the suspension of active search operations.  It is important for us to recall that CAP is not an independent agency with requisite responsibility and associated authority to initiate, suspend, or reopen active search operations (the exception being the 911T procedure for imminently serious missions in response to dire circumstances involving an immediate threat to lives, of significant human suffering, or extensive property losses).  CAP's participation in ES missions and protections for participating members are contingent upon requests for assistance from local, state, or federal authorities being approved by appropriate Corporate or USAF authorities.  Therefore, a wing's ability to respond to emerging new information, once active search operations have been halted, is held hostage to the approval authority of others.

•   I believe us11cav correctly identifies a void in the realm of missing aircraft SAR, responsibility for the continuation of efforts to resolve suspended missions.  There has been a presumption in this discussion that CAP should accept such responsibility and facilitate these efforts through the establishment of a web-based clearinghouse.  I believe further discussion whether this responsibility is best assumed by CAP, the USAF (as the inland SAR lead), another federal agency, or state/local SAR coordination agencies is warranted.  The question comes to my mind whether we have the depth of skilled volunteer personnel to assume such weighty responsibilities.  I have nothing but the highest regard for my fellow members, who offer their individual time, skills, and funds in service to others.  I also recognize the difference in capabilities we are able to generate as a volunteer organization on a weekend compared to a workday, and how those capabilities are quickly impacted as the duration of the mission lengthens.  Would we be able to do justice to the responsibility that comes with the mission? 
 
•   My own opinion is that pulling information from the public during the course of an active search is best accomplished by mobilizing local media to have those with information respond with a call into the ICP.  I believe that members of the general public find a phone call the least onerous means for providing information that in their own mind may be of questionable relevance.  The less the effort demanded of an individual to pass information, the more likely it is that that information will be passed to those able to exploit it.

[us11cav]

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful response, Ranger75. I have some comments, but it's better if I convey them in the broader context of what we've learned about the media, since both you and RiverAux mentioned the media in your replies.

Last Saturday, the father of the passenger of N2700Q was invited to give a one-hour interview on radio station KTAR (Phoenix) about his search for the missing aircraft. Numerous times during the interview, the conservative talk show host attempted to get him to say something negative about CAP. Each time, the attack was gracefully parried, and the father went on to praise CAP for its efforts to find the plane. It was obvious the host was baiting him--even trying to put words in his mouth--but to no avail. The father threw him a bone by roasting the NTSB for its malfeasance (well-documented in this forum), but he steadfastly defended CAP.

Finally, near the end of the interview, the host asked if CAP had given him all their maps and other information that might have helped his own (post-CAP) search efforts. There was of course only one answer he could give: "No."

And when the host asked what reasons CAP gave for denying him that information, the answer was: "They told me it was privileged information."

So here you have a father who walks into the studio prepared to thank all the people who helped him in the search, including CAP, but he's cut off before the mike even goes live. The talk show host knew his audience wanted fresh meat, and he was determined to give them some. This is the nature of media today--like it or not.

Now you gentlemen can sit back and thumb your regs whenever someone asks an intelligent question, and maybe that will get you by for another sixty years. My bet--for what it's worth--is that it won't. Hunkering down behind the perimeter wire ain't gonna cut it, as my old top sergeant used to say. In a society clamoring for change, you can either be a "force" or a target. Quite simply, you need to engage.

Ranger75, our experience tells us the telephone is not the "least onerous means" for the public to convey information of questionable relevance. Not any longer. The internet wins by a landslide. We have the stats to prove it.

So, other than this forum and a hodgepodge of wing websites, what is CAP doing with this multipurpose tool called the internet? Look in this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8083.0 and tell me CAP has a plan. It amazes me that with regs covering everything down to the clothes you wear, a simple standardized web-template doesn't exist.

Ranger75 notes that CAP's capabilities as a volunteer organization may not be up to the task of hosting a national "clearinghouse" for unsolved cases. Maybe not; in fact there were jurisdictional miscues in the Fossett search that showed CAP was not a unified national force, and thus no better suited than state SAR agencies for this sort of task.

But you are a national organization, so play to that strength. The most visible indication would be through a network of wing webpages (with common standards for contact #'s. etc.), all linked to the national site. If costs are a problem, ditch those stuffy old uniforms and go with a CAP cap, and the option of tee-shirt or golf-shirt with a CAP logo. Taken together, those actions might silence those critics who say you're just a bunch of doddering old tin soldiers. CAP's rich legacy, its wealth of skills and training, and its cadre of dedicated volunteers deserve better.

[us11cav]

...Us11cav  --  I appreciate your recounting of your outreach activities to potential sources.  A number of those identified had not come to my mind.  While I appreciate that the circumstances associated with each mission are unique, I have been able to expand my own checklist to incorporate consideration of contacting a growing number of other agencies or groups....

Re: "unique" circumstances... The N2700Q incident occurred on a Sunday, thus mail carriers were not on my list (don't forget private delivery companies also). On the other hand, recreationists were out in force, including those hikers who saw the fire.

[RiverAux]

Now you gentlemen can sit back and thumb your regs whenever someone asks an intelligent question, and maybe that will get you by for another sixty years. My bet--for what it's worth--is that it won't. Hunkering down behind the perimeter wire ain't gonna cut it, as my old top sergeant used to say. In a society clamoring for change, you can either be a "force" or a target. Quite simply, you need to engage.

I'm not sure that you get that we are bound to follow our organization's own rules.  Are they always the best rules?  No.  Are they always interpreted correctly by our members?  No.  But, if our members fail to follow proper procedures they get kicked out and most aren't interested in that.  You and I may not always like them, but they've mostly worked for 60 years leaving us about the only part of the WWII civil defense organization still active. 

Now, Ranger75 does bring up a good point about post-suspension participation by CAP.  Our current regulations and policies don't envision such a scenario as he correctly points out.  Could they be changed to allow for this sort of thing?  Sure?  But, he is right that this would need to be coordinated with AFRCC and/or the states.  I think that the Fossett search brought out that the AFRCC needs to look at this issue (relating to the old plane wrecks found during that search), but I have no clue as to where they are in that process. 

in fact there were jurisdictional miscues in the Fossett search that showed CAP was not a unified national force, and thus no better suited than state SAR agencies for this sort of task.

While I think this was definetely true in the past, but I believe there has been significant progress in cooperation between Wings on various missions since Katrina, at least from where I sit.  Sure, there are still some issues, but they're nowhere near like what they were even 5 years ago.

[Larry Mangum]

Once a mission is suspended by the AF, all records in reality belong to them and nothing can be released to the press, family or other search organizations without the explicit permission of AFRCC and NHQ.  Does that mean it is impossible to release informationm well no, it just means that the wing needs to forward the request up the chain.

As to opening a "Cold Case" or if you will suspended missions, the AF is nto going to authorize that, unless new information is turned up that would leave them to believe their is a high percentage of success.  Until AFRCC reopens the mission, the wing is not permitted to run an "A1" mission even if they beleive they have high value information.

I have seen wings in the past, run SAREX's, in the area that an aircraft went missing , as target area's for crews needing to practice search patterns.

[us11cav]

RiverAux and Who_Knows both present an excellent case for maintaining the status quo. Their arguments are as solid and impenetrable as the Maginot Line. With this sort of hard line defense, surely CAP will not suffer the same fate as the Air Education and Training Command (1942 - 2002).

I'll return to a discussion of N2700Q in my next post. We learned quite a bit about dangerous assumptions and "target fixation" during the search, and I believe it's worth sharing here.

[Ranger75]

The discussion on this thread has established a number of issues worthy of our attention.  My own interest at the start was in drawing out best practices or lessons learned from the experience of others that I might apply during my performance of duties as a member of the incident command and staff.  I would hope that additional lessons will be forthcoming as the discussion continues.  Second, there is a exchange related to the relative utility of web-based information gathering and working toward maximizing the potential of this communications means (standardized format, etc.).  I accept the potentials that have been identified by moving in the recommended direction.  The issue of an open exchange of mission information among any and all interested parties has also been raised.   

The most significant issue at hand is us11cav's accurate insight that the end of active search operations most commonly results in the search going dormant, unless by happenstance credible new information comes to the attention of a requisite authority able to call out a renewed effort.  In the case of N2700Q, family members, through their own efforts, fought vigorously to prevent the mission from being put on the shelf.   I, for one, applaud the family's efforts and eventual success.  I could easily see myself taking on a similar role under similar circumstances.  I am less confident that CAP, as a volunteer organization, has the capacity to take on the responsibility that us11cav would have it assume.

My association with CAP spans over 40 years, with active membership broken by an extended military career.  One difficulty I have experienced repeatedly in CAP is that of tempering my military mentality, to one that is effectively works within a volunteer environment, to be able to establish realistic expectations and the means to achieve them.  A picture of herding cats comes to mind.  Primarily it comes down to the authority to ask versus task.  Each member comes into the organization with an individual motivation to contribute to one or more of CAP's chartered roles.  Each brings with them a distinct skill set and willingness to enhance those skills through personal effort.  Each finds themselves having to determine what time, money, and personal engagement they are able or willing to devote to the organization.   Leaders within the organization are required to recognize the diverse personal decisions made by its members to build an effective team capable of mission accomplishment across a broad spectrum of expectations, a task much more difficult than that I confronted as a military officer. 

I question whether our personnel resources are adequate to the task of working each missing aircraft search to a final conclusion.  --  Us11cav  -- I am interested in gaining an appreciation of the man-hours devoted by yourself and others over the years since N2700Q failed to arrive at its destination.  --  In my own circumstance, in addition to a demanding second career, I serve as a principal staff officer at wing-level.  My own interests are focused on the ES mission.  Yet, I have found that the time I can devote beyond my current participation is extremely limited, to the point that I have had to defer acceptance of the offer of command positions that had presented themselves.  Within my wing I would be among a small core of individuals with appropriate qualifications to take on the responsibilities that have been proposed.  For me to do so would represent a zero-sum decision, a situation that I believe would be representative of the other members of a small group.

It is my perspective that to effectively execute the envisioned task would require the assembly of a geographically dispersed workgroup, one comprised of skilled individuals, working in a collaborative manner by effectively exploiting available technical means and tools.  My own belief is that necessary resources would have to be drawn from a nation-wide resource base in order to identify a select group, appropriately qualified, and able to invest the required time.   The operations section of National Headquarters would have to play a leading role in such an initiative.  I'm too distant from that activity to accurately assess that element's capabilities within the constraint of current personnel resources.  I would welcome to hear from someone with a clearer view of how the staff at National view their operational role and a sense of their ability to implement such an initiative, given consideration and approval by the NB.

[RiverAux]

RiverAux and Who_Knows both present an excellent case for maintaining the status quo. Their arguments are as solid and impenetrable as the Maginot Line. With this sort of hard line defense, surely CAP will not suffer the same fate as the Air Education and Training Command (1942 - 2002).

I'll return to a discussion of N2700Q in my next post. We learned quite a bit about dangerous assumptions and "target fixation" during the search, and I believe it's worth sharing here.

I think you will find that I was pointing out to you (a non-CAP member) what restraints we operate under and I think you will find examples of where I suggested changes could be made to address the legitimate issues that have been raised.   

Unlike Ranger75 I don't see any manpower/volunteer issues that would present any real limitations to providing some sort of CAP function to continue to gather information on searches that have been suspended.  I tend to think that this is something that AFRCC should run, but given their own inability to maintain their web site (see how many broken links they have) makes me think it unlikely they would really be able to do so, hence it could be something that they delegate to CAP.   

[Larry Mangum]

I also was not trying to create a Maginot Line, rather to point out that we have limitations that we have to work within. As Ranger75 pointed out, as a volunteer force, we have very limited resources when it comes to people who can continue to work on missions after they are suspended even when we go through all of the hoops.

When I ran ES at the wing level, I would have loved to have had people dedicated to pursuing leads on "cold case", but I was generally lucky if I had enough staff to meet current needs and requirements.  The best I could do was to take planned SAREX's and assign aircrews to practice search grids in areas we suspected a missing aircraft was in, as part of the exercise.  Beyond that my wing did not have the resources to send people out to gleam new information from hikers or such. Not only that but I would have gotten in a world of trouble from the local Sherieff and the state.

I am quite interested in how you went about acquiring the information that lead to the discovery and truly believe, that we need to take the lessons learned from your effort and see how we can integrate it into the training for our IC's and PSC's.