National mandates who teaches ICS/NIMS classes

[RiverAux]

So IC is not required. 

[isuhawkeye]

correct

[SarDragon]

NOT correct. I was reading from the FEMA web site when I made my last post.

That's the same place cited by sardak.

Q. What training do I need to be an ICS instructor?

A. All lead ICS instructors should have training and experience in adult education and have served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position. Specific requirements for ICS-100 through ICS-400 are as follows:

ICS-100
ICS-100 Lead and Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-100, ICS-200 and IS-700.

ICS-200
ICS-200 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-300. Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-200.

ICS-300
ICS-300 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-400, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written Incident Action Plan (IAP). Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-300, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position; or, have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.

ICS-400
ICS-400 Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-400 and IS-800 National Response Plan. Lead Instructor should have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that required multi-agency coordination and went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP. Unit Instructors must have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP; or, have specialized knowledge and experience for the audience, such as public health or public works.

IMPORTANT NOTE: An instructor's qualifications must be verified by the agency sponsoring the training.

It can't get more clear than that.

[isuhawkeye]

emphasis mine

served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP

The question I would pose is, how many CAP Mission staff have served on multiple OP's, or missions that required an IAP?

[Captain Morgan]

emphasis mine

served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP

The question I would pose is, how many CAP Mission staff have served on multiple OP's, or missions that required an IAP?

An Operational Period is usually one day.  If we were operating correctly, an IAP should be prepared for virtually every mission.  There should be plenty of CAP mission staff that meet these qualifications, except in some states that have virtually no missions.

[isuhawkeye]

So then virtually any IC, command, or general staff position can teach the course.

Not to difficult of a standard is it??

[Captain Morgan]

So then virtually any IC, command, or general staff position can teach the course.

Not to difficult of a standard is it??

They also need to have some teaching or instructing experience.  Although it is not specificly laid out, HLS prefers these classes to involve inter-agency training.  It would be a good thing if the instructor had some inter-agency experience and not spent their entire life in the CAP bubble.  There are also plenty of CAP members with experience working with or for law enforcement, fire, EMT, military, etc.

[Al Sayre]

emphasis mine

served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP

The question I would pose is, how many CAP Mission staff have served on multiple OP's, or missions that required an IAP?

I have several times...

[desertengineer1]

It can't get more clear than that.

Here's the problem I have with that FAQ:

____________________________
Q. What training do I need to be an ICS instructor?

A. All lead ICS instructors should have training and experience in adult education and have served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position. Specific requirements for ICS-100 through ICS-400 are as follows:

ICS-100
ICS-100 Lead and Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-100, ICS-200 and IS-700.

ICS-200
ICS-200 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-300. Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-200.

ICS-300
ICS-300 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-400, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written Incident Action Plan (IAP). Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-300, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position; or, have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.

ICS-400
ICS-400 Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-400 and IS-800 National Response Plan. Lead Instructor should have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that required multi-agency coordination and went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP. Unit Instructors must have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP; or, have specialized knowledge and experience for the audience, such as public health or public works.

IMPORTANT NOTE: An instructor's qualifications must be verified by the agency sponsoring the training.
______________________________________

Anyone see the problem(s) here? 

How clear is mud anyway?

[heliodoc]

What seems to be the problem??

As I see it (coming from the wildland fire arena)

It will require DOCUMENTATION in the form of:

A signed taskbook and signed by some one with equal or higher authoratah at the incident

Probably a M410 class NWCG  or TTT L249 type of class or a teaching degree

Keeping copies of a IAP stating positions and titles

Some of this will require MORE than just SAR missions local incidents, incidents of national signifcance, local issues of bomb scares, HAZMAT issues , wildland fire, and all the goodies dictated by DHS and EM/ ES / Fire

CAP may want to adopt the IAP method with all the associated ICS forms or use their own as long as it parallels the ICS sysytem

BIGGEST thing I see here is.............. CAP needs to be out in the real world of incident management and not just SAR to get some of thes things signed off... problems foressen are going to be...... FD PD EM ES folks integrating us into a scene which in all reality ......... We will not be in a first responder status we will be support to the incident.

Which will in turn require us to at least maintain a set of paperwork indicating that our IC's can keep track of our activities on an incident while they are IC of CAP personnel

But overall..... CAP instructors teaching I 300 /400 are going to be a tough commodity unless they can do an IAP  and related documentation during a real 1AF mission or an incident requested thru 1 AF

So if CAP has not had enough of documentation of personnel during Katrina, floods etc then it would behoove CAP to do so.......

ALL of this is going to require proof that folks can do this and probably more likely more than SAR missions in order to be a "playah" in all risk  environments

Take this from someone who has had to initiate taskbooks for every concievable position from firefighter to engine boss, to helicopter crewmember, to helicopter manager (T) .  The new world is going to require ALOT of documentation.....probaly more than CAP could be or get used to........

[desertengineer1]

What seems to be the problem??

The word "Should" and $1.59 will get you a nice cup of coffee from 7-11, but it doesn't apply to absolute requirements (unless mandated by the higher chain).

Only two instructor requirements have "MUST" according to the text.  Unit-level instructors must have served as an IC and instructor qualifications MUST be verified.  All the rest are "nice to have"'s.

Maybe I've spent too much time in the AF and am tainted, but should doesn't mean required.

[heliodoc]

your being in the AF or my being in the Army doesn't matter.......

It is what papa and momma DHS wants..... that may be their shoulds

We best be careful about chirping about other agencies "stuff"

We got our own house to clean as far as getting the basics done and then worry about the shoulds and haves regarding the I 300 and 400 series

[IceNine]

Remember becoming an instructor is only partially an objective process.  At the end of the day if the guy stamping your ticket doesn't think you've put sufficient effort into qualification (aka doing some "should's) then you simply won't be an instructor.

YMMV

[RiverAux]

Remember that we're supposed to be using Incident Action Plans in CAP now....

[SarDragon]

Remember becoming an instructor is only partially an objective process.  At the end of the day if the guy stamping your ticket doesn't think you've put sufficient effort into qualification (aka doing some "should's) then you simply won't be an instructor.

YMMV

+100

You can be the most knowledgeable person in a specialty, but not have the skills, talent, attitude, and/or personality to be a good instructor. I've spent a number of years in the business, and have experienced it first hand. Two E-6s in my USN Instructor Basic Course were skilled technicians in their specialties, but were unable to learn the skills necessary to be able to transfer that knowledge to others.

As I've stated before, CAP has some great experts who can't teach their way out of a wet paper sack, mostly because they've never been taught how.

[sardak]

Remember that we're supposed to be using Incident Action Plans in CAP now...

I guess "now" is relative, the following has been in 60-3 since May 2001, pre-9/11, pre-NIMS, pre-NIMS compliance, pre-NIMS sniveling, etc., but years after other agencies were using ICS.

CAPR 60-3  section 8-10(c)
As a matter of policy, missions where CAP is the lead agency, a written plan of some sort will be published. For missions of short duration the ICS Form 201 will be used as the plan for the missions. Missions of longer duration, anything over one operational period which will not be greater than 24 hours, will require the use of a formal incident action plan utilizing ICS Forms 202 through 206 with appropriate attachments.

Color coding as per earlier messages in the thread.

So then virtually any IC, command, or general staff position can teach the course. Not too difficult of a standard is it??

No, and it's too bad.  Even NWCG has had to lower its instructor requirements to the "should" and "or" wording to placate DHS.  Ref. NWCG Field Manager's Course Guide, PMS 901-1, May 2008.

Mike

[desertengineer1]

your being in the AF or my being in the Army doesn't matter.......

It is what papa and momma DHS wants..... that may be their shoulds

We best be careful about chirping about other agencies "stuff"

We got our own house to clean as far as getting the basics done and then worry about the shoulds and haves regarding the I 300 and 400 series

Actually, it does.  If the question "What am I required to have" is put foreward, the answer doesn't include "Should".

The words "must" and "Should" have huge differences with respect to what is and is not required.

[heliodoc]

Alright desertengineer,

I stand corrected...

WHO is driving the I courses anyway???   Surely NOT CAP

So it would benefit CAP to follow along in this "mess" any trying to change everything to suit them.

IF CAP wants to be recognized in this and wants to play with all the big dogs, then they (CAP) ought to be able to take instruction from someone elses rules and requirements.........

IT's like CAP telling the FAA how to govern the skies....  Do we as CAP tell the FAA what is up??

How about CAP membership JUST DO the requirements and stop chirping about time, volunteer status, "how the Guv rams this down our throats," etc

IF CAP does not have the instructors to do this...... then its time to man up, take the courses required, and then if someone wants to step up to the plate, go for it, start teaching...... 

But I have yet to see CAP with anything more than the SET reqs and online test...... really doesn't qualify one for much in the real world

[KyCAP]

All,

I had raised the issue with our local EM coordinator of why is it that Red Cross can get training from the Center for Domestic Preparedness and CAP can not.  I was told this by the CDP region liasion. 

This week the Commonwealth of Kentucky's NIMS compliance officer sent the local county EM manager an email forwarded from CDP that as of this past week CAP members are eligible for the "Train the Trainer" course at Anniston, AL.   This was a result of a policy change just implemented.

This means that your wing's can now sponsor individuals that are eligible to teach the class meeting the other requirements to apply for an "Expenses Paid" by the Feds training course.    This is pretty commonly the last obstacle for CAP members to train the ICS course.

Howevever, it is my personal belief that CAP trainers should strive to keep a balance of NON-CAP members in their courses to encourage interoperability among our peers in the community and for other reasons stated here.

Go to your wing ES officer and  apply for the course (if you're otherwise qualified)!

Russ

[arajca]

You could also apply to FEMA-EMI for the E-449 ICS TTT course held at Emmitsburg, MD. That one has been available to CAP volunteers for years.