National mandates who teaches ICS/NIMS classes

[Major Carrales]

Having it where CAP cannot conduct the courses is house is also folly.  We should strive to be leaders in the ES community, not "the group of mixed uniformed people who show up to an ICS training."  Until we get over the various inferiority complex-like ora that exists in CAP, we will always be second banana!!!

I think that's a little backward. A lot of the "in-house" training we do in CAP is because we aren't on par with what professional responders are training on. It's elementary school versus college. Going to training alongside emergency responders from a multitude of agencies in the state gives CAP a lot more visibility and opportunity to learn from them & vice versa. I absolutely think CAP should NOT conduct these courses in-house, especially not when it's being offered for free from the state on a regular basis.

Now, as far as the original poster... I find it extremely difficult to believe the state of PA is ONLY offering the course at one location however many hours away. I can see $30 for logistics & course materials, but many offerings are free. The point is not that you have to take it directly from the state EMA at their HQ, but that you have to take it from an instructor approved by the state EMA. In truth, CAP can get some of our instructors approved to do that, eventually, but there's a lot of extra course work involved in getting to that work. And, as I said, the joint environment is the key to future success.

Why is it that I mention CAP's inferiority complex and with in hours (after weeks of inactivity) we get a reply from you?

How can we not be on par with others if the would-be CAP trainers would be State trained?  I think it comes from the basic premise of some here that "no matter what CAP does it will be rinky-dink." 

What I suggest is not "backwards" thinking, it is "forward" thinking.  I do not view CAP as rinky-dink...I view it as dedicated volunteers working miracles with extremely limited resources and many times in isolation. 

Until CAP can stand on its own, and be held to high standards set by people who are serious about making CAP a leader in this field...there will never be that confidence that other better funded and resource wealthy organziation have.

I absolutely think CAP should conduct these courses in-house with well trained and professionally run courses. In fact, I think the state should allow CAP to be an agent of that training.  There is your joint involvement.

Dennis, you often time act as an expert on thinking happening in distant places...even to the point of doubting the people that are there experiencing the issue. 

You live in the Houston area where all this stuff happens regulary...we are not all so well located nor connected.  You often time don't have to drive more than an hour for regular stuff.  I'm an hour and a half from the Unit I COMMAND. 

I will go as far as to say that your area's units do things on a regular/routine basis that are milestones for units like mine.  You have resources that I have to drive to San Antonio/Brownsville to get, including at one time B-CUT, A-CUT, signoffs for UDF, MRO and aircrew positions.  My experience is that if we cannot do it in-house and locally and have to drive miles/hours to get basics; then we should qualify to get it done locally.  I apply that philosophy to most things that come out because the default setting of a CAP unit looks more like Corpus Christi than Houston.

I'm working to change that.  To make Corpus Christi a Mecca of training for local and future units in the area.  Your manner of thinking expressed here today is contrary to that.  I cannot enterain or subscribe you your interpetation of what CAP should do.

Be careful when you judge everyone based on only your perspective (as if it was everyone's case), especially when you are the one sitting in a catbird's seat.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Having it where CAP cannot conduct the courses is house is also folly.  We should strive to be leaders in the ES community, not "the group of mixed uniformed people who show up to an ICS training."  Until we get over the various inferiority complex-like ora that exists in CAP, we will always be second banana!!!

I think that's a little backward. A lot of the "in-house" training we do in CAP is because we aren't on par with what professional responders are training on. It's elementary school versus college. Going to training alongside emergency responders from a multitude of agencies in the state gives CAP a lot more visibility and opportunity to learn from them & vice versa. I absolutely think CAP should NOT conduct these courses in-house, especially not when it's being offered for free from the state on a regular basis.

Now, as far as the original poster... I find it extremely difficult to believe the state of PA is ONLY offering the course at one location however many hours away. I can see $30 for logistics & course materials, but many offerings are free. The point is not that you have to take it directly from the state EMA at their HQ, but that you have to take it from an instructor approved by the state EMA. In truth, CAP can get some of our instructors approved to do that, eventually, but there's a lot of extra course work involved in getting to that work. And, as I said, the joint environment is the key to future success.

PEMA is currently offering ICS 300/400 at several different locations in conjunction with the regional counter-terrorism task forces, from what I've seen come down through fire and EMS channels. As for the regularity of offerings at these various locations, that's an altogether different matter. These offerings are all covered by state and federal monies, from what I've seen.

The difficulty is that the bulk of such offerings are held in the center of the state; those on the outer boundaries are often better served by crossing state lines. In my corner of the state, for example, it's often easier to go to DE or even MD at times.

[Tubacap]

This is true, there are a bunch of ICS 300 and 400 courses available every month in PA.  I don't think it can be stated enough that these classes should be interdisciplinary in nature and not exclusively CAP.

In this regard, it should be easier to find an emergency response agency to sponsor these courses if you are an isolated CAP unit.  More than just CAP need these classes on almost the same timeline, it's a great time to start making friends with the local fire departments who you might be working with on the next SAR mission.

More than one of these classes has brought up opportunities for my squadron as well as for me personally and professionally that would not have been available if it were solely CAP.

It is my opinion that we have enough in house training, and that the ICS courses should be in conjunction with other response agencies.

[Eclipse]

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide,

No.

I don't know of anyone who paid for the classes in my wing, nor anyone who had to travel more than an hour, most under 30 minutes.

Which Wing are you from?  I know that in Texas, it takes more than two days to get from any given border to its opposite end. So called "Centralized" training in Austin, Houston or San Antonio still means people will be driving (in some cases) more than 5 hours as many as 8 or 9 in some cases.

I realize that states with large desert or undeveloped areas may have long point-to-point drives, but that's not the point of the statement.

The majority of members in my wing were able to take ICS 300 or 400 either in their own county, or one county over.  Driving more than an hour 1-way is ridiculous for classes which most assuredly are (or were) scheduled in your hometown.

If you have a PD or FD larger than Andy and Barney, they all have to take it, and are likely scheduling classes that you could participate in, and in respect to your specific state, I still find it incredibly hard to believe with all the disaster preparedness and HLS resources in TX, that there is such a shortage of ICS classes.

In many cases, the more is literally the merrier as that opens doors to further funding and training opportunities.

In response to the original thread:

The class is $30, not $250 - your accommodations don't count, and can be mitigate in any of a number of ways, starting with sharing a hotel room.

Your post say "want", not "require", the same Grand Canyon between "should" and "will" in our regs.

As mentioned, it is likely the same email that went to all wings indicating that some goobers were trying to pass off a USDA pre-test as the classroom and they should knock it off.

[Major Carrales]

Here you go lad, ICS 300 coming to Corpus Christi in July of 2009.  All others are in Waco, Houston, Dallas Area, the Pan Handle or Fredrickburg.

https://www.preparingtexas.org/viewCourse.aspx?courseid=402f88cb-2f13-4627-82ab-8fe44fb10502&instanceid=0dada287-929f-4987-9a0d-c8b1fb5dbad8&currdate=1/3/2009&showday=1

7/7/2009 - 7/9/2009  Corpus Christi, TX  18

The CAP units in the Rio Grande Valley will have to make nearly a 3 hour trip to come to the nearest one which is Corpus Christi...all others are 5 hours or more.

Here is one being held at Sam Houstin University...

February 9-11, 2009: Intermediate Course for Expanding Incidents -ICS 300   Fee :Free for the Texas Law Enforcement officers, $195 other agencies Prerequisite : Completion of ICS 100/200/700/800 . All prerequisite courses must be completed prior to participation in the course.

http://www.incosit.org/course%20schedule.htm

A trip to a place like Austin or Houston is not a Sunday Outing for people like me.  It is a trip that requires financial resources that a teacher has to really budget to make happen. 

Yes, CAP is going to cost money, but if it means traversing creation for a course because some of you lack the chutzpah to have CAP put on its own show because of some stupid idea that "CAP is not worthy" to do it is a bupkes reason in my mind!

I will not go out of my way and expend money that would best be donated to my unit to buy essentials on a trip to a part of Texas I don't expect to see until Hurricane season.  I imagine that, unless the course is proximate in distance and time I will not be becoming an IC, IO or the like anytime soon. 

[Pumbaa]

Sparky... what's with the Yiddish?

You sound like a Nooyawka!!

[flyguync]

For those that have had a lot of time in at the IC Comand level it may pay you to check with your states EM department and become certified to teach the classes yourself. Attached is the link to NCEM instructor certification form.  Ive learned in my 13 years in CAP theres more than one way to get around the system.

http://149.168.212.15/TRAINING/Flyers/ICSInstructorApp.pdf

[Eclipse]

For those that have had a lot of time in at the IC Comand level it may pay you to check with your states EM department and become certified to teach the classes yourself. Attached is the link to NCEM instructor certification form.  Ive learned in my 13 years in CAP theres more than one way to get around the system.

http://149.168.212.15/TRAINING/Flyers/ICSInstructorApp.pdf

A valid and interesting idea.

As to Sparky's issue, I don't know what else we can say - there are a number of sites I found offering training in Texas, most do not have anything scheduled for 2009 yet. Contrast that to my area where I have already received course schedules from two different agencies, offering at least 10 different opportunities for 300 & 400 through May '09.

You're probably in the same boat as our downstaters - choose to live where there are more cows and corn than people and you have to get used to driving a lot to get what you need, CAP or otherwise.

One suggestion I'd make is just calling or walking into your local PD station, identify your self and ask to talk to the Chief, etc., and find out where they took or will take their classes - my town, for example, brought in instructors and did the classes in-house for their departments, you may well be able to sit in on one of those.

You may be seeing a shortage of overtly public classes, but your local agencies have to doing this to keep their doors open.

There are also airplanes - CAP has them, and traveling to and from this type of activity is a legit use of them.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky... what's with the Yiddish?

You sound like a Nooyawka!!

I use Yiddish when my English and Spanish (emotion wise) have reached the level of profane. 

[Captain Morgan]

I just got an email sent out by my Wing Operations Officer, stating that National Headquarters has stated that they want us to get our 300 level class taught to us by our States Emergency Management Agency, and no one else.  Is this BS on his part??  Because of this, if I wanted to complete this course, I would have to drive 4 hours and spend around $250.00 

Has any heard of this policy he is referencing???

General Courter's letter of April; 10. 2008 laid out how to get qualified to teach these classes in Attachment 2. ( http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2008_04_10_NIMS_BFB885BDDCC14.pdf )  Although this is not a solution to the immediate problem, we need to get at least a few CAP instructors up to speed in each Wing.  By nature, the courses are designed to be in an inter-agency setting.  It would be a great community service if CAP would act as an ICS instruction resource for other agencies, as well as a more convenient and cost effective internal resource for getting these classes done.  There is not an abundant number of CAP personnel with the practical experience required, but I believe there is a sufficient number.

[ThorntonOL]

Where can I find info on those PEMA courses?

[Major Carrales]

I just got an email sent out by my Wing Operations Officer, stating that National Headquarters has stated that they want us to get our 300 level class taught to us by our States Emergency Management Agency, and no one else.  Is this BS on his part??  Because of this, if I wanted to complete this course, I would have to drive 4 hours and spend around $250.00 

Has any heard of this policy he is referencing???

General Courter's letter of April; 10. 2008 laid out how to get qualified to teach these classes in Attachment 2. ( http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2008_04_10_NIMS_BFB885BDDCC14.pdf )  Although this is not a solution to the immediate problem, we need to get at least a few CAP instructors up to speed in each Wing.  By nature, the courses are designed to be in an inter-agency setting.  It would be a great community service if CAP would act as an ICS instruction resource for other agencies, as well as a more convenient and cost effective internal resource for getting these classes done.  There is not an abundant number of CAP personnel with the practical experience required, but I believe there is a sufficient number.

This is what I have been proposing that prompted the above commentary on the matter.   Some people are so seemingly riddled with CAP self-loathing that they will not even entertain the idea of CAP led ICS/NIMS courses.

In all honesty and reality, there is no viable reason CAP cannot sponor its own ICS 300/400 classes aimed at its needs while ministering to who ever else needs it.

I would assume that local law enforcement have held thier classes "in house" after training a number of folks to instruct the class (some of whom traveled by company wallet to Austin et al).  In time, they hold regular updates and initials however closed to the general public/other organizations.  That is likely how they are able to be compliant without offering ICS classes to the waiting CAP officers.

The bottom line is  that it is the height of idiocy not to develop an in "house method" to hold a mandatory course and depend on outside organizations to offer it to our people.

[Tubacap]

Where can I find info on those PEMA courses?

PEMA has a training calendar off of their website www.pema.state.pa.us  I would imagine most other states are the same.  The trick is to do a little bit deeper search into each counties Emergency Management courses and the Counter Terrorism Task Forces, they host many more.  There are plenty of these courses available, but you have to be a little google slick to find them. 

[SarDragon]

Theh problem I see here for getting CAP folks qualified as instructors is two-fold:

1. The lead instructor for a course needs to have served as an IC or in a major level staff position

2. The lead instructor needs to be a trained, qualified instructor

This pairing is not something I have seen all that much in my time in CAP ES.

I myself, after reviewing some of the instructor material, would feel comfortable teaching the basic knowledge in at least the 100, 200, 700, and 800 courses, but, (and this is a big but) without the mandated practical experience, the course would have little real value.

The obvious solution would be to get some of our ICs trained as instructors. Once again, we're up against the lack of available instructor training.

[flyerthom]

I am just disappointed in Pennsylvania Wing again.  I know it Costs $$$ to be a member of CAP, but I don't want to begin paying for mandated training, that I can get closer to home from another agency other than the states EMA.

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide, or something ridiculous from my Wing.      

http://www.pema.state.pa.us/pema/ical/calendar.asp


http://www.security.state.ny.us/training/training_calendar.php

http://www.njoemscert.com/CourseCatalog/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&CategoryID=23
http://www.mema.state.md.us/calendar/index.asp

https://oh.train.org/DesktopShell.aspx?tabid=143

http://www.wvdhsem.gov/training.htm

[Eclipse]

I would assume that local law enforcement have held thier classes "in house" after training a number of folks to instruct the class (some of whom traveled by company wallet to Austin et al).  In time, they hold regular updates and initials however closed to the general public/other organizations.  That is likely how they are able to be compliant without offering ICS classes to the waiting CAP officers.

They aren't offering, but that doesn't mean you can't play if you ask nicely.

Most municipal stuff is pretty public by design because of who is paying the bills - people with a legit need shouldn't have too much trouble getting help.

Or, if they have in-house guy, perhaps dinner and a challenge coin could get him to help your people, etc.

[Al Sayre]

The reason that you should take ICS 300 & 400 from your local EMA is very simple, that is what these classes are all about; Expanding incidents that involve multiple agencies.  You need to know not just how to work in a large incident, but who you'll be working with in a large incident, and these classes are a good place to get to meet and work with those people in a non-emergency environment.  Walking into a real large incident command post and saying "Hi I'm Joe Blow from CAP and I'm an IC or AL or AOBD" will get you a lot of blank stares and a chair in the hallway at the far end by the bathroom.   If they know who you are and what capabilities you bring before you get there, it goes a long way towards getting the mission accomplished. 

I'm running a search mission right now in MS that involves a half dozen different county EMA's, LE, Fire Services, Nat'l Guard and several state agencies.  We all know each other because I was there, right along side them when they were taking the ICS 300 & 400 courses.  We worked together during and after the hurricanes as well.  My biggest headache in this mission besides the weather has been that most of our ES qualified people have been de-certified for non-completion of NIMS courses. 

The final answer is that compliance is mandatory and if you want to have the qualification, you have to have the courses.  No course = no participation; period; full stop.  No whining allowed!  How you get them is up to you, but teaching or taking ICS 300 & 400 in a CAP only environment is self defeating.

Get those course done!

[RiverAux]

Theh problem I see here for getting CAP folks qualified as instructors is two-fold:

1. The lead instructor for a course needs to have served as an IC or in a major level staff position

I'm assuming that this is just an opinion on your part rather than an actual requirement since I don't recall coming across that particular statement before.  Would it be better to have an IC teach the 300/400?  Sure, but keep in mind that requirements to become an IC vary considerably between agencies and if you really wanted the "right" IC to teach these upper level classes, it would be somebody who has run extremely large incidents and those folks are usually high-ranking agency employees who are not going to spend much time doing training classes for the local VFD.

[isuhawkeye]

http://www.in.gov/dhs/files/icsfaq.pdf


ICS 300: Lead instructor should have successfully completed ICS 400 AND should have
training and experience in adult education and have served as Incident Commander or in a
command or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or
required a written Incident Action Plan. Unit instructors should have served as Incident
Commander or in a command or general staff position OR have specialized knowledge and
experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.

ICS 400: All instructors should have successfully completed ICS 400 AND IS-800, the National
Response Plan. Lead instructor should have training and experience in adult education and have
served as Incident Commander or in a command or general staff position in an incident that
required multi-agency coordination and went beyond one operational period or required a written
IAP. Unit instructors must have served as Incident Commander or in a command or general staff
position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP OR
have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or
public works.



Though not cited from a fema reference, these are common requirments

[sardak]

^^Those requirements are rearranged wording from FEMA at:
http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nims/faq/training.shtm

The draft 60-3 from February, 2008 listed those same criteria, also rearranged from the FEMA site. Why don't they just copy it word for word from FEMA?

For the adult education requirement, the draft 60-3 listed these choices:
a. College education classes
b. NWCG Facilitative Instructor M-410 class
c. Emergency Management Institute Master Trainer Program
d. National Fire Academy Instructional Methodology class
e. DHS Office of Grants and Training Instructor Training Certification
f. USAF Academic Instructor School
g. American Red Cross, National Safety Counsel, American Heart Association, or American Safety and Health Institute instructor development training.
h. Equivalent instructor certification courses as determined by the Wing or higher commander or their designee.

In our state, to be a recognized instructor, the adult education training must be formal college training, or one of the NWCG, DHS or NFA courses, and then co-teaching the class at least once with an already recognized instructor.

Mike