National mandates who teaches ICS/NIMS classes

[Timbo]

I just got an email sent out by my Wing Operations Officer, stating that National Headquarters has stated that they want us to get our 300 level class taught to us by our States Emergency Management Agency, and no one else.  Is this BS on his part??  Because of this, if I wanted to complete this course, I would have to drive 4 hours and spend around $250.00 

Has any heard of this policy he is referencing???

[RiverAux]

Possibly this has something to do with what was said in anothe thread about there being some confusion about an online ICS300 prep course done by the Dept. of Agriculture (which is not an adequate substitute for the actual classroom course).

If your state is charging $250 for this course, then that is BS. 

[smj58501]

If your state is charging $250 for this course, then that is BS. 

Concur.... they should have gotten funding from DHS to provide this training already

[Eclipse]

Unless this is required by some MOU with the state, I'd throw the flag.

ICS 300 is ICS 300, and every state in the nation has plenty of free classes through a variety of agencies.

[Major Carrales]

If your state is charging $250 for this course, then that is BS. 

Concur.... they should have gotten funding from DHS to provide this training already

I believe he is including the rent for a Hotel/Motel nad fuel.  Having to travel more than an hour for a "classroom" course is ridiculous.  I have always been a fan of "save the money for actual operations, equipment or the like," not travel for class stuff.

Driving 200-300 miles to get an ICS class, be it free or not, is folly; especially in our troubled economy.

Having it where CAP cannot conduct the courses is house is also folly.  We should strive to be leaders in the ES community, not "the group of mixed uniformed people who show up to an ICS training."  Until we get over the various inferiority complex-like ora that exists in CAP, we will always be second banana!!!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

From the April letter about the NIMS training

Some states require instructors to complete a specific course in order to teach ICS, or for courses to
be recognized locally. Wings that desire to conduct their own courses should coordinate with their state
and local counterparts in order to be sure that training will be recognized locally. Wings desiring to
restrict instructor qualifications further than noted above can do so through an approved policy memo or
supplement to regulation CAPR 60-3

Requiringthe classes be taught by someone approved by your States' Emergency Management Agency seems to be in line with this.

[Timbo]

I believe he is including the rent for a Hotel/Motel and fuel.  Having to travel more than an hour for a "classroom" course is ridiculous.  I have always been a fan of "save the money for actual operations, equipment or the like," not travel for class stuff.

You are correct!  The Course fee is $30.00.  The course itself is Saturday and Sunday, with the cheapest hotel in the area at almost $100.00  I took in to account tolls which average out to $30.00 and two meals/snacks and gas.  That brings me upward of $250.00

I am just disappointed in Pennsylvania Wing again.  I know it Costs $$$ to be a member of CAP, but I don't want to begin paying for mandated training, that I can get closer to home from another agency other than the states EMA.

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide, or something ridiculous from my Wing.      

[argentip]

Check with your county Emergency Management Office.  That is who I took both my 300 and 400 courses through.  They were also free.  These classes were done specifically for CAP, but we also have a good relationship with our county EM office.

As for your question, it is a requirement to have the class taught by someone who is authorized by your state's EM Agency.  There is no way to get around this.  I would expect that your county would have one of these instructors.

[Eclipse]

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide,

No.

I don't know of anyone who paid for the classes in my wing, nor anyone who had to travel more than an hour, most under 30 minutes.

[RiverAux]

Unless you're in the middle of Pennsylvania, you might want to see if 300 is being taught over the border by another state.  Might be a bit closer. 

[WT]

Must have been another one of those e-mails from the PAWG DO sent to "everyone" (wink-wink), that was only sent to certain people, that everyone was expected to see!

[Major Carrales]

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide,

No.

I don't know of anyone who paid for the classes in my wing, nor anyone who had to travel more than an hour, most under 30 minutes.

Which Wing are you from?  I know that in Texas, it takes more than two days to get from any given border to its opposite end. So called "Centralized" training in Austin, Houston or San Antonio still means people will be driving (in some cases) more than 5 hours as many as 8 or 9 in some cases.

[Major Carrales]

From the April letter about the NIMS training

Some states require instructors to complete a specific course in order to teach ICS, or for courses to
be recognized locally. Wings that desire to conduct their own courses should coordinate with their state
and local counterparts in order to be sure that training will be recognized locally. Wings desiring to
restrict instructor qualifications further than noted above can do so through an approved policy memo or
supplement to regulation CAPR 60-3

Requiringthe classes be taught by someone approved by your States' Emergency Management Agency seems to be in line with this.

My point is that active step be taken to have CAP Officers who are qualified to teach the courses.  Thus, in house CAP ICS courses can be give by CAP Officers to CAP Officers (and others) that we don't have to be scrounging around and traversing creation for "mandated" CAP course. 

I would go as far as to say that all WINGS with GROUPS should have three ICS 300/400 courses a year one sponsoered by the WING, and the other two sponsored by the GROUP with a SQUADRON as its host.

This way, ICS becomes a part of CAP's make up.

[RiverAux]

I'm sure that it will over time.  Quite frankly, it seems as if some state agencies are the real hold-up here in not making this training more widely available in their states.  Every public safety organization has to have these courses.  It seems that some states are making a major push on this while others are dragging their feet. 

Some states may already have done a ton of 300/400s over the last two years and the smart CAP members took advantage of that and from now on there probably won't be nearly as many available due to decreased demand.  For example, PA looks like it has had dozens and dozens of 300s in 2007 and 2008 (according to the PEMA training calendar), but hardly have any available now. 

[Tubacap]

I think there needs to be a distinction between CAP mandated and Federally Mandated courses.  The ICS courses are federal courses required by DHS for certain jobs.  In so much as CAP works with in the emergency response field, our players need to be able to play interagency.  Just sticking within CAP defeats the purpose entirely.

I agree, we should have instructors, but I wholly disagree with the fact that the training should exclude other agencies, in fact it is my belief that for the advanced ICS courses, it should be a requirement of the instructors to have multiple jurisdictions present at the course.

In regards to PAWG, there is an ICS 300 being held at our Wing HQ this month, but there are a variety of other ICS 300s throughout the state that are posted on the PEMA website.  I for one, took ICS 300 in Gilette PA at a firehall, and I am about to take ICS 400 in Horseheads NY with SEMA, also sponsored by a Fire Company.  My ICS 300 counts, as well as I am sure the 400 counts.

Finding these courses is somewhat tricky, you just need to know where to ask.  In PA, you need to ask your County Emergency Management Coordinator, and then expand the search from there (the internet is our friend in this regard).

[fyrfitrmedic]

 For those in southeastern PA, it's often more convenient and less of a travel issue to take ICS 300 and 400 through DEMA.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

My point is that active step be taken to have CAP Officers who are qualified to teach the courses.  Thus, in house CAP ICS courses can be give by CAP Officers to CAP Officers (and others) that we don't have to be scrounging around and traversing creation for "mandated" CAP course. 

I would go as far as to say that all WINGS with GROUPS should have three ICS 300/400 courses a year one sponsored by the WING, and the other two sponsored by the GROUP with a SQUADRON as its host.

This way, ICS becomes a part of CAP's make up.

I looked into getting qualified to teach these courses. The only thing that would satisfy RIEMA was a week long course at a training center in Maryland. If I'm going to burn a (n other) week's vacation for CAP, several things would come before that (Staff College, NESA, Encampment...)

[isuhawkeye]

Iowa will be offering another TTT for ICS 300 and 400 this spring.  unfortunately it will take place during the work week

[IceNine]

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide,

No.

I don't know of anyone who paid for the classes in my wing, nor anyone who had to travel more than an hour, most under 30 minutes.

Which Wing are you from?  I know that in Texas, it takes more than two days to get from any given border to its opposite end. So called "Centralized" training in Austin, Houston or San Antonio still means people will be driving (in some cases) more than 5 hours as many as 8 or 9 in some cases.

IL

6 Hours tip to tip (N->S)
3 Hours (E->W)

[DNall]

Having it where CAP cannot conduct the courses is house is also folly.  We should strive to be leaders in the ES community, not "the group of mixed uniformed people who show up to an ICS training."  Until we get over the various inferiority complex-like ora that exists in CAP, we will always be second banana!!!

I think that's a little backward. A lot of the "in-house" training we do in CAP is because we aren't on par with what professional responders are training on. It's elementary school versus college. Going to training alongside emergency responders from a multitude of agencies in the state gives CAP a lot more visibility and opportunity to learn from them & vice versa. I absolutely think CAP should NOT conduct these courses in-house, especially not when it's being offered for free from the state on a regular basis.

Now, as far as the original poster... I find it extremely difficult to believe the state of PA is ONLY offering the course at one location however many hours away. I can see $30 for logistics & course materials, but many offerings are free. The point is not that you have to take it directly from the state EMA at their HQ, but that you have to take it from an instructor approved by the state EMA. In truth, CAP can get some of our instructors approved to do that, eventually, but there's a lot of extra course work involved in getting to that work. And, as I said, the joint environment is the key to future success.

[Major Carrales]

Having it where CAP cannot conduct the courses is house is also folly.  We should strive to be leaders in the ES community, not "the group of mixed uniformed people who show up to an ICS training."  Until we get over the various inferiority complex-like ora that exists in CAP, we will always be second banana!!!

I think that's a little backward. A lot of the "in-house" training we do in CAP is because we aren't on par with what professional responders are training on. It's elementary school versus college. Going to training alongside emergency responders from a multitude of agencies in the state gives CAP a lot more visibility and opportunity to learn from them & vice versa. I absolutely think CAP should NOT conduct these courses in-house, especially not when it's being offered for free from the state on a regular basis.

Now, as far as the original poster... I find it extremely difficult to believe the state of PA is ONLY offering the course at one location however many hours away. I can see $30 for logistics & course materials, but many offerings are free. The point is not that you have to take it directly from the state EMA at their HQ, but that you have to take it from an instructor approved by the state EMA. In truth, CAP can get some of our instructors approved to do that, eventually, but there's a lot of extra course work involved in getting to that work. And, as I said, the joint environment is the key to future success.

Why is it that I mention CAP's inferiority complex and with in hours (after weeks of inactivity) we get a reply from you?

How can we not be on par with others if the would-be CAP trainers would be State trained?  I think it comes from the basic premise of some here that "no matter what CAP does it will be rinky-dink." 

What I suggest is not "backwards" thinking, it is "forward" thinking.  I do not view CAP as rinky-dink...I view it as dedicated volunteers working miracles with extremely limited resources and many times in isolation. 

Until CAP can stand on its own, and be held to high standards set by people who are serious about making CAP a leader in this field...there will never be that confidence that other better funded and resource wealthy organziation have.

I absolutely think CAP should conduct these courses in-house with well trained and professionally run courses. In fact, I think the state should allow CAP to be an agent of that training.  There is your joint involvement.

Dennis, you often time act as an expert on thinking happening in distant places...even to the point of doubting the people that are there experiencing the issue. 

You live in the Houston area where all this stuff happens regulary...we are not all so well located nor connected.  You often time don't have to drive more than an hour for regular stuff.  I'm an hour and a half from the Unit I COMMAND. 

I will go as far as to say that your area's units do things on a regular/routine basis that are milestones for units like mine.  You have resources that I have to drive to San Antonio/Brownsville to get, including at one time B-CUT, A-CUT, signoffs for UDF, MRO and aircrew positions.  My experience is that if we cannot do it in-house and locally and have to drive miles/hours to get basics; then we should qualify to get it done locally.  I apply that philosophy to most things that come out because the default setting of a CAP unit looks more like Corpus Christi than Houston.

I'm working to change that.  To make Corpus Christi a Mecca of training for local and future units in the area.  Your manner of thinking expressed here today is contrary to that.  I cannot enterain or subscribe you your interpetation of what CAP should do.

Be careful when you judge everyone based on only your perspective (as if it was everyone's case), especially when you are the one sitting in a catbird's seat.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Having it where CAP cannot conduct the courses is house is also folly.  We should strive to be leaders in the ES community, not "the group of mixed uniformed people who show up to an ICS training."  Until we get over the various inferiority complex-like ora that exists in CAP, we will always be second banana!!!

I think that's a little backward. A lot of the "in-house" training we do in CAP is because we aren't on par with what professional responders are training on. It's elementary school versus college. Going to training alongside emergency responders from a multitude of agencies in the state gives CAP a lot more visibility and opportunity to learn from them & vice versa. I absolutely think CAP should NOT conduct these courses in-house, especially not when it's being offered for free from the state on a regular basis.

Now, as far as the original poster... I find it extremely difficult to believe the state of PA is ONLY offering the course at one location however many hours away. I can see $30 for logistics & course materials, but many offerings are free. The point is not that you have to take it directly from the state EMA at their HQ, but that you have to take it from an instructor approved by the state EMA. In truth, CAP can get some of our instructors approved to do that, eventually, but there's a lot of extra course work involved in getting to that work. And, as I said, the joint environment is the key to future success.

PEMA is currently offering ICS 300/400 at several different locations in conjunction with the regional counter-terrorism task forces, from what I've seen come down through fire and EMS channels. As for the regularity of offerings at these various locations, that's an altogether different matter. These offerings are all covered by state and federal monies, from what I've seen.

The difficulty is that the bulk of such offerings are held in the center of the state; those on the outer boundaries are often better served by crossing state lines. In my corner of the state, for example, it's often easier to go to DE or even MD at times.

[Tubacap]

This is true, there are a bunch of ICS 300 and 400 courses available every month in PA.  I don't think it can be stated enough that these classes should be interdisciplinary in nature and not exclusively CAP.

In this regard, it should be easier to find an emergency response agency to sponsor these courses if you are an isolated CAP unit.  More than just CAP need these classes on almost the same timeline, it's a great time to start making friends with the local fire departments who you might be working with on the next SAR mission.

More than one of these classes has brought up opportunities for my squadron as well as for me personally and professionally that would not have been available if it were solely CAP.

It is my opinion that we have enough in house training, and that the ICS courses should be in conjunction with other response agencies.

[Eclipse]

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide,

No.

I don't know of anyone who paid for the classes in my wing, nor anyone who had to travel more than an hour, most under 30 minutes.

Which Wing are you from?  I know that in Texas, it takes more than two days to get from any given border to its opposite end. So called "Centralized" training in Austin, Houston or San Antonio still means people will be driving (in some cases) more than 5 hours as many as 8 or 9 in some cases.

I realize that states with large desert or undeveloped areas may have long point-to-point drives, but that's not the point of the statement.

The majority of members in my wing were able to take ICS 300 or 400 either in their own county, or one county over.  Driving more than an hour 1-way is ridiculous for classes which most assuredly are (or were) scheduled in your hometown.

If you have a PD or FD larger than Andy and Barney, they all have to take it, and are likely scheduling classes that you could participate in, and in respect to your specific state, I still find it incredibly hard to believe with all the disaster preparedness and HLS resources in TX, that there is such a shortage of ICS classes.

In many cases, the more is literally the merrier as that opens doors to further funding and training opportunities.

In response to the original thread:

The class is $30, not $250 - your accommodations don't count, and can be mitigate in any of a number of ways, starting with sharing a hotel room.

Your post say "want", not "require", the same Grand Canyon between "should" and "will" in our regs.

As mentioned, it is likely the same email that went to all wings indicating that some goobers were trying to pass off a USDA pre-test as the classroom and they should knock it off.

[Major Carrales]

Here you go lad, ICS 300 coming to Corpus Christi in July of 2009.  All others are in Waco, Houston, Dallas Area, the Pan Handle or Fredrickburg.

https://www.preparingtexas.org/viewCourse.aspx?courseid=402f88cb-2f13-4627-82ab-8fe44fb10502&instanceid=0dada287-929f-4987-9a0d-c8b1fb5dbad8&currdate=1/3/2009&showday=1

7/7/2009 - 7/9/2009  Corpus Christi, TX  18

The CAP units in the Rio Grande Valley will have to make nearly a 3 hour trip to come to the nearest one which is Corpus Christi...all others are 5 hours or more.

Here is one being held at Sam Houstin University...

February 9-11, 2009: Intermediate Course for Expanding Incidents -ICS 300   Fee :Free for the Texas Law Enforcement officers, $195 other agencies Prerequisite : Completion of ICS 100/200/700/800 . All prerequisite courses must be completed prior to participation in the course.

http://www.incosit.org/course%20schedule.htm

A trip to a place like Austin or Houston is not a Sunday Outing for people like me.  It is a trip that requires financial resources that a teacher has to really budget to make happen. 

Yes, CAP is going to cost money, but if it means traversing creation for a course because some of you lack the chutzpah to have CAP put on its own show because of some stupid idea that "CAP is not worthy" to do it is a bupkes reason in my mind!

I will not go out of my way and expend money that would best be donated to my unit to buy essentials on a trip to a part of Texas I don't expect to see until Hurricane season.  I imagine that, unless the course is proximate in distance and time I will not be becoming an IC, IO or the like anytime soon. 

[Pumbaa]

Sparky... what's with the Yiddish?

You sound like a Nooyawka!!

[flyguync]

For those that have had a lot of time in at the IC Comand level it may pay you to check with your states EM department and become certified to teach the classes yourself. Attached is the link to NCEM instructor certification form.  Ive learned in my 13 years in CAP theres more than one way to get around the system.

http://149.168.212.15/TRAINING/Flyers/ICSInstructorApp.pdf

[Eclipse]

For those that have had a lot of time in at the IC Comand level it may pay you to check with your states EM department and become certified to teach the classes yourself. Attached is the link to NCEM instructor certification form.  Ive learned in my 13 years in CAP theres more than one way to get around the system.

http://149.168.212.15/TRAINING/Flyers/ICSInstructorApp.pdf

A valid and interesting idea.

As to Sparky's issue, I don't know what else we can say - there are a number of sites I found offering training in Texas, most do not have anything scheduled for 2009 yet. Contrast that to my area where I have already received course schedules from two different agencies, offering at least 10 different opportunities for 300 & 400 through May '09.

You're probably in the same boat as our downstaters - choose to live where there are more cows and corn than people and you have to get used to driving a lot to get what you need, CAP or otherwise.

One suggestion I'd make is just calling or walking into your local PD station, identify your self and ask to talk to the Chief, etc., and find out where they took or will take their classes - my town, for example, brought in instructors and did the classes in-house for their departments, you may well be able to sit in on one of those.

You may be seeing a shortage of overtly public classes, but your local agencies have to doing this to keep their doors open.

There are also airplanes - CAP has them, and traveling to and from this type of activity is a legit use of them.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky... what's with the Yiddish?

You sound like a Nooyawka!!

I use Yiddish when my English and Spanish (emotion wise) have reached the level of profane. 

[Captain Morgan]

I just got an email sent out by my Wing Operations Officer, stating that National Headquarters has stated that they want us to get our 300 level class taught to us by our States Emergency Management Agency, and no one else.  Is this BS on his part??  Because of this, if I wanted to complete this course, I would have to drive 4 hours and spend around $250.00 

Has any heard of this policy he is referencing???

General Courter's letter of April; 10. 2008 laid out how to get qualified to teach these classes in Attachment 2. ( http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2008_04_10_NIMS_BFB885BDDCC14.pdf )  Although this is not a solution to the immediate problem, we need to get at least a few CAP instructors up to speed in each Wing.  By nature, the courses are designed to be in an inter-agency setting.  It would be a great community service if CAP would act as an ICS instruction resource for other agencies, as well as a more convenient and cost effective internal resource for getting these classes done.  There is not an abundant number of CAP personnel with the practical experience required, but I believe there is a sufficient number.

[ThorntonOL]

Where can I find info on those PEMA courses?

[Major Carrales]

I just got an email sent out by my Wing Operations Officer, stating that National Headquarters has stated that they want us to get our 300 level class taught to us by our States Emergency Management Agency, and no one else.  Is this BS on his part??  Because of this, if I wanted to complete this course, I would have to drive 4 hours and spend around $250.00 

Has any heard of this policy he is referencing???

General Courter's letter of April; 10. 2008 laid out how to get qualified to teach these classes in Attachment 2. ( http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2008_04_10_NIMS_BFB885BDDCC14.pdf )  Although this is not a solution to the immediate problem, we need to get at least a few CAP instructors up to speed in each Wing.  By nature, the courses are designed to be in an inter-agency setting.  It would be a great community service if CAP would act as an ICS instruction resource for other agencies, as well as a more convenient and cost effective internal resource for getting these classes done.  There is not an abundant number of CAP personnel with the practical experience required, but I believe there is a sufficient number.

This is what I have been proposing that prompted the above commentary on the matter.   Some people are so seemingly riddled with CAP self-loathing that they will not even entertain the idea of CAP led ICS/NIMS courses.

In all honesty and reality, there is no viable reason CAP cannot sponor its own ICS 300/400 classes aimed at its needs while ministering to who ever else needs it.

I would assume that local law enforcement have held thier classes "in house" after training a number of folks to instruct the class (some of whom traveled by company wallet to Austin et al).  In time, they hold regular updates and initials however closed to the general public/other organizations.  That is likely how they are able to be compliant without offering ICS classes to the waiting CAP officers.

The bottom line is  that it is the height of idiocy not to develop an in "house method" to hold a mandatory course and depend on outside organizations to offer it to our people.

[Tubacap]

Where can I find info on those PEMA courses?

PEMA has a training calendar off of their website www.pema.state.pa.us  I would imagine most other states are the same.  The trick is to do a little bit deeper search into each counties Emergency Management courses and the Counter Terrorism Task Forces, they host many more.  There are plenty of these courses available, but you have to be a little google slick to find them. 

[SarDragon]

Theh problem I see here for getting CAP folks qualified as instructors is two-fold:

1. The lead instructor for a course needs to have served as an IC or in a major level staff position

2. The lead instructor needs to be a trained, qualified instructor

This pairing is not something I have seen all that much in my time in CAP ES.

I myself, after reviewing some of the instructor material, would feel comfortable teaching the basic knowledge in at least the 100, 200, 700, and 800 courses, but, (and this is a big but) without the mandated practical experience, the course would have little real value.

The obvious solution would be to get some of our ICs trained as instructors. Once again, we're up against the lack of available instructor training.

[flyerthom]

I am just disappointed in Pennsylvania Wing again.  I know it Costs $$$ to be a member of CAP, but I don't want to begin paying for mandated training, that I can get closer to home from another agency other than the states EMA.

I was just wondering if this truly was a NHQ requirement for the 300 class, nationwide, or something ridiculous from my Wing.      

http://www.pema.state.pa.us/pema/ical/calendar.asp


http://www.security.state.ny.us/training/training_calendar.php

http://www.njoemscert.com/CourseCatalog/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&CategoryID=23
http://www.mema.state.md.us/calendar/index.asp

https://oh.train.org/DesktopShell.aspx?tabid=143

http://www.wvdhsem.gov/training.htm

[Eclipse]

I would assume that local law enforcement have held thier classes "in house" after training a number of folks to instruct the class (some of whom traveled by company wallet to Austin et al).  In time, they hold regular updates and initials however closed to the general public/other organizations.  That is likely how they are able to be compliant without offering ICS classes to the waiting CAP officers.

They aren't offering, but that doesn't mean you can't play if you ask nicely.

Most municipal stuff is pretty public by design because of who is paying the bills - people with a legit need shouldn't have too much trouble getting help.

Or, if they have in-house guy, perhaps dinner and a challenge coin could get him to help your people, etc.

[Al Sayre]

The reason that you should take ICS 300 & 400 from your local EMA is very simple, that is what these classes are all about; Expanding incidents that involve multiple agencies.  You need to know not just how to work in a large incident, but who you'll be working with in a large incident, and these classes are a good place to get to meet and work with those people in a non-emergency environment.  Walking into a real large incident command post and saying "Hi I'm Joe Blow from CAP and I'm an IC or AL or AOBD" will get you a lot of blank stares and a chair in the hallway at the far end by the bathroom.   If they know who you are and what capabilities you bring before you get there, it goes a long way towards getting the mission accomplished. 

I'm running a search mission right now in MS that involves a half dozen different county EMA's, LE, Fire Services, Nat'l Guard and several state agencies.  We all know each other because I was there, right along side them when they were taking the ICS 300 & 400 courses.  We worked together during and after the hurricanes as well.  My biggest headache in this mission besides the weather has been that most of our ES qualified people have been de-certified for non-completion of NIMS courses. 

The final answer is that compliance is mandatory and if you want to have the qualification, you have to have the courses.  No course = no participation; period; full stop.  No whining allowed!  How you get them is up to you, but teaching or taking ICS 300 & 400 in a CAP only environment is self defeating.

Get those course done!

[RiverAux]

Theh problem I see here for getting CAP folks qualified as instructors is two-fold:

1. The lead instructor for a course needs to have served as an IC or in a major level staff position

I'm assuming that this is just an opinion on your part rather than an actual requirement since I don't recall coming across that particular statement before.  Would it be better to have an IC teach the 300/400?  Sure, but keep in mind that requirements to become an IC vary considerably between agencies and if you really wanted the "right" IC to teach these upper level classes, it would be somebody who has run extremely large incidents and those folks are usually high-ranking agency employees who are not going to spend much time doing training classes for the local VFD.

[isuhawkeye]

http://www.in.gov/dhs/files/icsfaq.pdf


ICS 300: Lead instructor should have successfully completed ICS 400 AND should have
training and experience in adult education and have served as Incident Commander or in a
command or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or
required a written Incident Action Plan. Unit instructors should have served as Incident
Commander or in a command or general staff position OR have specialized knowledge and
experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.

ICS 400: All instructors should have successfully completed ICS 400 AND IS-800, the National
Response Plan. Lead instructor should have training and experience in adult education and have
served as Incident Commander or in a command or general staff position in an incident that
required multi-agency coordination and went beyond one operational period or required a written
IAP. Unit instructors must have served as Incident Commander or in a command or general staff
position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP OR
have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or
public works.



Though not cited from a fema reference, these are common requirments

[sardak]

^^Those requirements are rearranged wording from FEMA at:
http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nims/faq/training.shtm

The draft 60-3 from February, 2008 listed those same criteria, also rearranged from the FEMA site. Why don't they just copy it word for word from FEMA?

For the adult education requirement, the draft 60-3 listed these choices:
a. College education classes
b. NWCG Facilitative Instructor M-410 class
c. Emergency Management Institute Master Trainer Program
d. National Fire Academy Instructional Methodology class
e. DHS Office of Grants and Training Instructor Training Certification
f. USAF Academic Instructor School
g. American Red Cross, National Safety Counsel, American Heart Association, or American Safety and Health Institute instructor development training.
h. Equivalent instructor certification courses as determined by the Wing or higher commander or their designee.

In our state, to be a recognized instructor, the adult education training must be formal college training, or one of the NWCG, DHS or NFA courses, and then co-teaching the class at least once with an already recognized instructor.

Mike

[RiverAux]

So IC is not required. 

[isuhawkeye]

correct

[SarDragon]

NOT correct. I was reading from the FEMA web site when I made my last post.

That's the same place cited by sardak.

Q. What training do I need to be an ICS instructor?

A. All lead ICS instructors should have training and experience in adult education and have served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position. Specific requirements for ICS-100 through ICS-400 are as follows:

ICS-100
ICS-100 Lead and Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-100, ICS-200 and IS-700.

ICS-200
ICS-200 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-300. Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-200.

ICS-300
ICS-300 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-400, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written Incident Action Plan (IAP). Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-300, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position; or, have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.

ICS-400
ICS-400 Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-400 and IS-800 National Response Plan. Lead Instructor should have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that required multi-agency coordination and went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP. Unit Instructors must have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP; or, have specialized knowledge and experience for the audience, such as public health or public works.

IMPORTANT NOTE: An instructor's qualifications must be verified by the agency sponsoring the training.

It can't get more clear than that.

[isuhawkeye]

emphasis mine

served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP

The question I would pose is, how many CAP Mission staff have served on multiple OP's, or missions that required an IAP?

[Captain Morgan]

emphasis mine

served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP

The question I would pose is, how many CAP Mission staff have served on multiple OP's, or missions that required an IAP?

An Operational Period is usually one day.  If we were operating correctly, an IAP should be prepared for virtually every mission.  There should be plenty of CAP mission staff that meet these qualifications, except in some states that have virtually no missions.

[isuhawkeye]

So then virtually any IC, command, or general staff position can teach the course.

Not to difficult of a standard is it??

[Captain Morgan]

So then virtually any IC, command, or general staff position can teach the course.

Not to difficult of a standard is it??

They also need to have some teaching or instructing experience.  Although it is not specificly laid out, HLS prefers these classes to involve inter-agency training.  It would be a good thing if the instructor had some inter-agency experience and not spent their entire life in the CAP bubble.  There are also plenty of CAP members with experience working with or for law enforcement, fire, EMT, military, etc.

[Al Sayre]

emphasis mine

served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP

The question I would pose is, how many CAP Mission staff have served on multiple OP's, or missions that required an IAP?

I have several times...

[desertengineer1]

It can't get more clear than that.

Here's the problem I have with that FAQ:

____________________________
Q. What training do I need to be an ICS instructor?

A. All lead ICS instructors should have training and experience in adult education and have served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position. Specific requirements for ICS-100 through ICS-400 are as follows:

ICS-100
ICS-100 Lead and Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-100, ICS-200 and IS-700.

ICS-200
ICS-200 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-300. Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-200.

ICS-300
ICS-300 Lead Instructor should have successfully completed ICS-400, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written Incident Action Plan (IAP). Unit Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-300, have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position; or, have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.

ICS-400
ICS-400 Instructors should have successfully completed ICS-400 and IS-800 National Response Plan. Lead Instructor should have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that required multi-agency coordination and went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP. Unit Instructors must have served as served as Incident Commander or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written IAP; or, have specialized knowledge and experience for the audience, such as public health or public works.

IMPORTANT NOTE: An instructor's qualifications must be verified by the agency sponsoring the training.
______________________________________

Anyone see the problem(s) here? 

How clear is mud anyway?

[heliodoc]

What seems to be the problem??

As I see it (coming from the wildland fire arena)

It will require DOCUMENTATION in the form of:

A signed taskbook and signed by some one with equal or higher authoratah at the incident

Probably a M410 class NWCG  or TTT L249 type of class or a teaching degree

Keeping copies of a IAP stating positions and titles

Some of this will require MORE than just SAR missions local incidents, incidents of national signifcance, local issues of bomb scares, HAZMAT issues , wildland fire, and all the goodies dictated by DHS and EM/ ES / Fire

CAP may want to adopt the IAP method with all the associated ICS forms or use their own as long as it parallels the ICS sysytem

BIGGEST thing I see here is.............. CAP needs to be out in the real world of incident management and not just SAR to get some of thes things signed off... problems foressen are going to be...... FD PD EM ES folks integrating us into a scene which in all reality ......... We will not be in a first responder status we will be support to the incident.

Which will in turn require us to at least maintain a set of paperwork indicating that our IC's can keep track of our activities on an incident while they are IC of CAP personnel

But overall..... CAP instructors teaching I 300 /400 are going to be a tough commodity unless they can do an IAP  and related documentation during a real 1AF mission or an incident requested thru 1 AF

So if CAP has not had enough of documentation of personnel during Katrina, floods etc then it would behoove CAP to do so.......

ALL of this is going to require proof that folks can do this and probably more likely more than SAR missions in order to be a "playah" in all risk  environments

Take this from someone who has had to initiate taskbooks for every concievable position from firefighter to engine boss, to helicopter crewmember, to helicopter manager (T) .  The new world is going to require ALOT of documentation.....probaly more than CAP could be or get used to........

[desertengineer1]

What seems to be the problem??

The word "Should" and $1.59 will get you a nice cup of coffee from 7-11, but it doesn't apply to absolute requirements (unless mandated by the higher chain).

Only two instructor requirements have "MUST" according to the text.  Unit-level instructors must have served as an IC and instructor qualifications MUST be verified.  All the rest are "nice to have"'s.

Maybe I've spent too much time in the AF and am tainted, but should doesn't mean required.

[heliodoc]

your being in the AF or my being in the Army doesn't matter.......

It is what papa and momma DHS wants..... that may be their shoulds

We best be careful about chirping about other agencies "stuff"

We got our own house to clean as far as getting the basics done and then worry about the shoulds and haves regarding the I 300 and 400 series

[IceNine]

Remember becoming an instructor is only partially an objective process.  At the end of the day if the guy stamping your ticket doesn't think you've put sufficient effort into qualification (aka doing some "should's) then you simply won't be an instructor.

YMMV

[RiverAux]

Remember that we're supposed to be using Incident Action Plans in CAP now....

[SarDragon]

Remember becoming an instructor is only partially an objective process.  At the end of the day if the guy stamping your ticket doesn't think you've put sufficient effort into qualification (aka doing some "should's) then you simply won't be an instructor.

YMMV

+100

You can be the most knowledgeable person in a specialty, but not have the skills, talent, attitude, and/or personality to be a good instructor. I've spent a number of years in the business, and have experienced it first hand. Two E-6s in my USN Instructor Basic Course were skilled technicians in their specialties, but were unable to learn the skills necessary to be able to transfer that knowledge to others.

As I've stated before, CAP has some great experts who can't teach their way out of a wet paper sack, mostly because they've never been taught how.

[sardak]

Remember that we're supposed to be using Incident Action Plans in CAP now...

I guess "now" is relative, the following has been in 60-3 since May 2001, pre-9/11, pre-NIMS, pre-NIMS compliance, pre-NIMS sniveling, etc., but years after other agencies were using ICS.

CAPR 60-3  section 8-10(c)
As a matter of policy, missions where CAP is the lead agency, a written plan of some sort will be published. For missions of short duration the ICS Form 201 will be used as the plan for the missions. Missions of longer duration, anything over one operational period which will not be greater than 24 hours, will require the use of a formal incident action plan utilizing ICS Forms 202 through 206 with appropriate attachments.

Color coding as per earlier messages in the thread.

So then virtually any IC, command, or general staff position can teach the course. Not too difficult of a standard is it??

No, and it's too bad.  Even NWCG has had to lower its instructor requirements to the "should" and "or" wording to placate DHS.  Ref. NWCG Field Manager's Course Guide, PMS 901-1, May 2008.

Mike

[desertengineer1]

your being in the AF or my being in the Army doesn't matter.......

It is what papa and momma DHS wants..... that may be their shoulds

We best be careful about chirping about other agencies "stuff"

We got our own house to clean as far as getting the basics done and then worry about the shoulds and haves regarding the I 300 and 400 series

Actually, it does.  If the question "What am I required to have" is put foreward, the answer doesn't include "Should".

The words "must" and "Should" have huge differences with respect to what is and is not required.

[heliodoc]

Alright desertengineer,

I stand corrected...

WHO is driving the I courses anyway???   Surely NOT CAP

So it would benefit CAP to follow along in this "mess" any trying to change everything to suit them.

IF CAP wants to be recognized in this and wants to play with all the big dogs, then they (CAP) ought to be able to take instruction from someone elses rules and requirements.........

IT's like CAP telling the FAA how to govern the skies....  Do we as CAP tell the FAA what is up??

How about CAP membership JUST DO the requirements and stop chirping about time, volunteer status, "how the Guv rams this down our throats," etc

IF CAP does not have the instructors to do this...... then its time to man up, take the courses required, and then if someone wants to step up to the plate, go for it, start teaching...... 

But I have yet to see CAP with anything more than the SET reqs and online test...... really doesn't qualify one for much in the real world

[KyCAP]

All,

I had raised the issue with our local EM coordinator of why is it that Red Cross can get training from the Center for Domestic Preparedness and CAP can not.  I was told this by the CDP region liasion. 

This week the Commonwealth of Kentucky's NIMS compliance officer sent the local county EM manager an email forwarded from CDP that as of this past week CAP members are eligible for the "Train the Trainer" course at Anniston, AL.   This was a result of a policy change just implemented.

This means that your wing's can now sponsor individuals that are eligible to teach the class meeting the other requirements to apply for an "Expenses Paid" by the Feds training course.    This is pretty commonly the last obstacle for CAP members to train the ICS course.

Howevever, it is my personal belief that CAP trainers should strive to keep a balance of NON-CAP members in their courses to encourage interoperability among our peers in the community and for other reasons stated here.

Go to your wing ES officer and  apply for the course (if you're otherwise qualified)!

Russ

[arajca]

You could also apply to FEMA-EMI for the E-449 ICS TTT course held at Emmitsburg, MD. That one has been available to CAP volunteers for years.

[Major Carrales]

Howevever, it is my personal belief that CAP trainers should strive to keep a balance of NON-CAP members in their courses to encourage interoperability among our peers in the community and for other reasons stated here.

An that is the point what people are maintaining.  There is no reason why CAP units cannot sponsor and put on the course making them open to others.  I would go as far as to say that there would be no shortage of non-CAP people who would need the course.

I think it is a mistake not to do so.  Some of you need to think more "globally" about the nature of CAP.  CAP is not "some ragtag group incapable of the smallest tasks" just because we are not "the REAL Airfore."  We make our place in the world and our name for ourselves...until we come to fully understand that then the self-fullfilling idea that CAP in in always "inferior" is made real.

[desertengineer1]

An that is the point what people are maintaining.  There is no reason why CAP units cannot sponsor and put on the course making them open to others.  I would go as far as to say that there would be no shortage of non-CAP people who would need the course.

I think it is a mistake not to do so.  Some of you need to think more "globally" about the nature of CAP.  CAP is not "some ragtag group incapable of the smallest tasks" just because we are not "the REAL Airfore."  We make our place in the world and our name for ourselves...until we come to fully understand that then the self-fullfilling idea that CAP in in always "inferior" is made real.

Keep in mind this doesn't preclude (even encourages) networking and interchange between agencies.  Don't be afraid to contact local disaster agencies, or even agencies that have disaster responsibilities.

At our Guard base, two military members will become TTT qualified for ICS300 and 400 soon.  They were very happy to hear our interest in attending the classes, and we were warmly welcomed.  They get experience and exposure with teaching it to other agencies.  We get the training.  Everybody gets good networking opportunity.  A great win-win for interoperability.

Let's make this an enhancement opporunity.