Turning over ELTs to the Cops

[isuhawkeye]

in my experience many ELT missions ended up having LEO present

[Jolt]

in my experience many ELT missions ended up having LEO present

The last ELT mission our GT had involved two police officers.  The difference is that only one police officer was tied up escorting our ground team around as opposed to an entire group of police officers hunting down the ELT themselves.

[RiverAux]

Good luck getting an MOU approved.  The AF lawyers have more or less nixed that idea the last I heard, though I suppose it still might be possible.  They seem to just want individual mission requests going to the NoC or AFRCC per the CAPabilities handbook. 

[Jolt]

Could we switch over to our corporate side and not worry about the Air Force lawyers?

[lordmonar]

Could we switch over to our corporate side and not worry about the Air Force lawyers?

You are wearing your Nomex Underwear right? 

[arajca]

Good luck getting an MOU approved.  The AF lawyers have more or less nixed that idea the last I heard, though I suppose it still might be possible.  They seem to just want individual mission requests going to the NoC or AFRCC per the CAPabilities handbook. 

It all depends on how the MOU is written. Some of the successful ones I have seen cover the AF requirements and have nicely deliniated cost and insurance issues. That way, when the requestor calls the NOC, they can easily reference the MOU and it makes approvals easier since the tricky parts are already done.

[isuhawkeye]

The difference is that only one police officer was tied up escorting our ground team around as opposed to an entire group of police officers hunting down the ELT themselves.

How many police officers do you think it would take to turn off an ELT.  CAP only requires 2 for a UDF team

[Flying Pig]

An entire group of police officers.......

[JohnKachenmeister]

One riot... one Ranger!

[SAR-EMT1]

My question is this: why does LE have a responsibility for SAR in the first place?

In my experience it's usually the local FD or the local FEMA / EMA chapter, not LE.

As for ELT searches... I highly doubt the ability of my local associates to find one.

... Then again in Central IL, finding a downed plane is as easy as looking into the field and saying: "there it is"

[RiverAux]

I'd say its a hold-over from the old days when the only agency that did emergency response was the county sheriff or local police.  Someone official had to be in charge of it.  Its really been a fairly recent development to have full-time emergency management folks and even then its often just one or two people, even in large counties, and they don't have their own manpower to handle it themselves.  Plus, since foul play can sometimes be involved in missing persons cases, it makes some sense to have LE responsible for investigating it. 

Is it the best way to handle the situation now -- in most places it probably still is. 

[Jolt]

My question is this: why does LE have a responsibility for SAR in the first place?

In my experience it's usually the local FD or the local FEMA / EMA chapter, not LE.

As for ELT searches... I highly doubt the ability of my local associates to find one.

... Then again in Central IL, finding a downed plane is as easy as looking into the field and saying: "there it is"

My town's fire department recently did some SAR training actually.  The only real mention they made about LEOs helping in the search was in regards to the K-9 officer.

[_]

Plus, since foul play can sometimes be involved in missing persons cases, it makes some sense to have LE responsible for investigating it. 

The thinking is based on a missing person's search.  If someone goes missing, they went missing for a reason.  Most that go missing go because of foul play.  When searching for someone this should always be in your mind, and clues should be treated as evidence.  The whole criminal aspect is not really emphasized in CAP because we primarily do ELT's and crashed planes.  In those cases it's most likely not criminal so there isn't a need for a police agency to have jurisdiction so the Air Force runs things.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I don't think I understand the direction of this post.

Are we talking that law enforcement should have primary responsibility for ELT hunts?  Or, are we discussing the merits of having a police officer along for when we go prowling at 4:00 am?

If we are discussing cops taking over the ELT hunts, no.  That is a dumb idea.  Here's why:

1.  ELT's are a little labor-intensive.  It takes a couple of hours to locate and track one.  Tying up two or more cops for several hours looking for an ELT is just not going to happen.  Cops are needed to do other things.

2.  You need an aircraft to locate an ELT.  Most cops do not have aircraft available.  That's a big war-stopper right there.  For those cops that DO have an aviation section, see comment 1 above.

3.  ELT's do not respect jurisdictional borders.  Cops do.  If it looks like the ELT is down in an adjoining county or city, end of search.  Call the next door neighbors.  If they track it back to our county, OK, we'll try again, but I think its yours.  If you don't believe me, I'll tell you some true stories about finding nut cases and dropping them off in neighboring cities.

As for calling a cop before entering private property, oh, YEAH.  That HAS to happen.  Maybe the Massachusetts Wing can prowl around houses with impunity, but in Florida, we're big Second Amendment supporters.  Sneaking around somebody's boat in the back yard carrying a funny-looking stick in the middle of the night can get you shot.

[JoeTomasone]

As for calling a cop before entering private property, oh, YEAH.  That HAS to happen.  Maybe the Massachusetts Wing can prowl around houses with impunity, but in Florida, we're big Second Amendment supporters.  Sneaking around somebody's boat in the back yard carrying a funny-looking stick in the middle of the night can get you shot.

Or even going to the front door.   We found an ELT at a private residence in Tampa whose owner answered the doorbell with a gun - fortunately not displayed once he saw the uniforms, but declared once we entered the house.    Even if I had LE with me, I would absolutely notify the owners before searching in a yard once I was convinced it was on their property.   That's not just common sense, it's the polite thing to do.

[JohnKachenmeister]

As for calling a cop before entering private property, oh, YEAH.  That HAS to happen.  Maybe the Massachusetts Wing can prowl around houses with impunity, but in Florida, we're big Second Amendment supporters.  Sneaking around somebody's boat in the back yard carrying a funny-looking stick in the middle of the night can get you shot.

Or even going to the front door.   We found an ELT at a private residence in Tampa whose owner answered the doorbell with a gun - fortunately not displayed once he saw the uniforms, but declared once we entered the house.    Even if I had LE with me, I would absolutely notify the owners before searching in a yard once I was convinced it was on their property.   That's not just common sense, it's the polite thing to do.

Somebody knocking on MY door at 4 am will be greeted by a large dog and a chubby old man.  The dog is not a threat.  He barks but is very friendly.  The old man, however, will be carrying a .45 caliber M-1911A1.  He is not friendly at 4 am, and he bites.

[tribalelder]

As many point out, LE involvement is a safety issue.  Since CAP doesn't get called until the long distance rates go down, urban-area ELT searches go on, for the most part, after dark.  As most parents will attest, hardly anything GOOD happens after 10 PM. 

Nobody wants to startle folks who are armed (LE) or potentially armed (homeowners defending their homes). 

Besides, a call to the PD can get you intel you don't have (like that boat storage yard over the hill) and/or an escort with flashing red and blue lights so the law-abiding homeowner is much less likely to make armed respond to a mistaken threat when he looks out the peephole.

Let's not have the "Your Name Here" Flight Scholarship.

[SAR-EMT1]

Somebody knocking on MY door at 4 am will be greeted by a large dog and a chubby old man.  The dog is not a threat.  He barks but is very friendly.  The old man, however, will be carrying a .45 caliber M-1911A1.  He is not friendly at 4 am, and he bites.

John, this just made me crack up.
I have to ask: what kind of dog do you have?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Somebody knocking on MY door at 4 am will be greeted by a large dog and a chubby old man.  The dog is not a threat.  He barks but is very friendly.  The old man, however, will be carrying a .45 caliber M-1911A1.  He is not friendly at 4 am, and he bites.

John, this just made me crack up.
I have to ask: what kind of dog do you have?

An Australian Cattle Dog.  He looks like a small German Shepard.  His color was poor for the breed, almost black when they are supposed to have a blue tint to their fur, so he was abandoned by his former owner.  He got arrested by the Dog Police for being an abandoned dog, and spent a few months in Dog Jail.  I bailed him out.

His myspace is : www.myspace.com/aussiefloridadog.

[SAR-EMT1]

To the topic at hand:

How many times do you think the Local PD knows what an ELT is?
Or rather... of all the times the AFRCC calls PD instead of us, how much time is spent on the phone with the desk Sgt. explaining the situation?

Sidenote: Kach... that website is cute but disturbing. I > HOPE < your wife created it and not Aussie's "People Daddy"