Turning over ELTs to the Cops

[calguy]

Now here is a person that understands goverment.   Spend all you money before the end of the year = more $$$ next year.   Have a surplus at the end of the year = less $$$ next year. Take on more missions = more $$$.  In Los Angeles County we have several Sheriff's SAR Volunteer teams.  They all stay very busy, have required training several times every month, must buy much of their own equipment and the have a line of people wanting to join and willing to pay.
I see in the closing traffic of late that the LA County Sheriffs are now flying these missions for us.  I also see where the Sierra Marde team has been practicing on 121.775.  Maybe the see the future of CAP?

[maverik]

Yeah back in my old town when my unit was called out the sheriffs googled Search and Rescue. That was our only mission. But the thing is (idea for fundraiser) CAP units could train local cops to use df equipment.

[JayT]

Yeah back in my old town when my unit was called out the sheriffs googled Search and Rescue. That wa sour only mission. But the thing is (idea for fundraiser) CAP units could train local cops to use df equipment.

So, you think your enough of an expert for your unit to change a professional cop on how to use equipment?

[Flying Pig]

There aren't many, if any counties that are going to do a search with a Huey.  Nor are they going to look for an ELT with a Huey.  A rescue? Sure, but not a regular search.  Where I am, we are preparing to get a Huey, but it will be used for more specialized missions like transporting SAR members to locations, or SWAT operations.  Right now, we have two MD500E's and a Cessna 206 that we use, but when we are taking SAR guys to 10,000 ft. back in the Sierras we can only take one at a time in the 500.  It can take several hours to insert the whole team and their gear.
As far as us not wanting to save money?  Thats not really true.  If we are budgeted, we are going to spend it because it has been alloted to us by the Board of Supervisors.  We spend what we are alloted by the Department, but we don't waste it.  My unit is budgeted for about 1800 hrs per year.  We rarely hit that mark because of weather, maintenance, etc.  Nor, do we run out and hover the helicopter for 100 hours on December 31st so our budget doesnt get cut.  If they are going to cut our budget, they are going to cut our budget.

But, let me play Devils Advocate here...I am an LE and CAP Mission Pilot, so I live in both worlds. The aircraft we fly at work are budgeted for X number of hours per year.  The money is there....it's already in the bank. The county has said we can spend it.   Why should the Sheriff not fly ELT missions?  The costs to us would probably be reimbursed by the state.  We could take all of CAP's ground DF equipment and training money given to each wing and reissue it to the Depts and SAR deputies who are already working, already on duty, and always on call. They are in good physical shape, and are all trained to the same standards.  We can go onto people property to shut them off, and even go into your garage or hangar if we need to.  If someone wants to get silly with us...we can deal with that too.  
We are available with aircraft that are FLIR and spot light equipped, who pilots can fly on NVG's, in bad weather, into the mountains at night.  We have ground teams that are available 24/7 with the necessary equipment and direct communication to be completely self supporting in all aspects of anything we may encounter. We have the ability to call in additional resources immediately if needed.  No flight releases, none of the paperwork, no Mission base, no checking if people have completed ICS 700 800 or 100000 or whatever the flavor of the week happens to be.  We have  IC's who's sole duty in life is SAR, 7 days a week. Not someone who manages an auto parts store Mon-Fri and completed some online courses.  And its a service already paid for and provided to the county tax payer.

I can tell you the reason most agencies don't do this is because they probably don't even know the mission exists. So in times of fiscal crisis, and just nature of agencies looking for missions, for many of you who want to run out and force your mission on local government agencies, you may be cutting your own throats in the end.  
If your relying on the argument of "But were Free! And they are just looking for an excuse to fly."  Try again.  I can show you a list of missions that have been turned over to the Sheriff with the line  "Per CAP Mission Commander Capt. XXXXX."  And when the time comes, the research will be done, and the number of missions CAP has turned over the the Sheriff will be tallied, and the argument that  will be made is "What if that ELT had been you or your loved one Mr. and Mrs. Supervisor?"  And next thing you know, your local Po-Dunk  Sheriff will have his brand new Cessna 182 and an election feather in his hat for his next campaign.

You don't have to like it.

[JoeTomasone]

Well, yeah, but we can wear berets while we search.

If our Wing Commander says so.

So there.   


Sarcasm aside, you make a very valid point.   The only counterpoint I might make if I were to defend CAP is that Law Enforcement personnel should be dedicated to law enforcement, not SAR.   We don't see Law Enforcement being called out to fight fires when the volunteer fire department has "resource issues", do we?

The real solution to this is to recruit, train, utilize, and retain CAP members more effectively.   I see too many Squadrons who do not participate in ES for various reasons, mostly relating to a lack of mentors to shepherd them through the process of getting interested, qualified, and utilized.   

[Flying Pig]

Not true.  One of the primary missions of the Sheriff is to proved SAR services the county.  That is mandated by law.  As far as the volunteer fireman issue....The county or State Fire service would pick up the slack.  In a county, if a city doesn't have or cant afford a police force, the Sheriff is responsible to patrol the city whether they like it or not.
And, yes, there are many cities where the police officers also double as firefighters. They carry their gear in their vehicles and someone brings the truck.   Lets face it.  When it has to be done, and there is nobody else around who do people ultimately call?  They call the cops.  Getting the job done almost always falls to law enforcement in the event that nobody else is around.

[maverik]

Yeah back in my old town when my unit was called out the sheriffs googled Search and Rescue. That wa sour only mission. But the thing is (idea for fundraiser) CAP units could train local cops to use df equipment.

So, you think your enough of an expert for your unit to change a professional cop on how to use equipment?

I made no such comment but your wing ES director could oversee the operation and the more qualified ground team members could have a class on how to use the DF equipment. No offense to anyone or myself ,but it doesn't take a genius to operate DF equipment.

[isuhawkeye]

if its that easy to do...

why pay for cap to do it?

[JoeTomasone]

No offense to anyone or myself ,but it doesn't take a genius to operate DF equipment.

No, but it takes skill to operate it with efficiency and confidence.

[JoeTomasone]

Not true.  One of the primary missions of the Sheriff is to proved SAR services the county.  That is mandated by law.  As far as the volunteer fireman issue....The county or State Fire service would pick up the slack.  In a county, if a city doesn't have or cant afford a police force, the Sheriff is responsible to patrol the city whether they like it or not.
And, yes, there are many cities where the police officers also double as firefighters. They carry their gear in their vehicles and someone brings the truck.   Lets face it.  When it has to be done, and there is nobody else around who do people ultimately call?  They call the cops.  Getting the job done almost always falls to law enforcement in the event that nobody else is around.

OK, so in CA it's a little different. 

Not debating that "when in doubt, call the cops" exists, but if LE is out chasing an ELT at the same time that a bank is robbed, I can see the question coming up of why they were out chasing ELTs instead of criminals.

After all, CAP can't chase the criminals.

[Flying Pig]

I think Im not explaining it well.  In police work, we aren't ALL out patrolling in cars.  We have assignments from SAR, anti-terrorism, motors, aviation, boating units, horse patrol etc. 
The guy who would be looking for the ELT isn't the same guy who would be going after a bank robber.  Anyway..... 

LE is usually the agency equipped with to even begin to deal with an ELT because the fire guys arent going to do it.  No slam on them,  but as it is set up, the vast majority of anything SAR related is going to fall to Law Enforcement when it comes to something like an ELT.

[maverik]

No offense to anyone or myself ,but it doesn't take a genius to operate DF equipment.

No, but it takes skill to operate it with efficiency and confidence.

True and that's where you can make your money or do what my squadron did do it as community service to get the name CAP out there so that we will respond to more incidents and our squadron has had a 10 cadet increase since we started doing that kind of stuff.

[Eclipse]

I think Im not explaining it well.  In police work, we aren't ALL out patrolling in cars.  We have assignments from SAR, anti-terrorism, motors, aviation, boating units, horse patrol etc. 
The guy who would be looking for the ELT isn't the same guy who would be going after a bank robber.  Anyway..... 

LE is usually the agency equipped with to even begin to deal with an ELT because the fire guys arent going to do it.  No slam on them,  but as it is set up, the vast majority of anything SAR related is going to fall to Law Enforcement when it comes to something like an ELT.

California is obviously a different animal from many other states.

Around these Midwestern parts, the PD's and FD's are barely able to maintain readiness for their "real" jobs, and would be calling in off duty guys to execute DF work.  Many of the towns around here, where DF is needed, have had significant attrition, while at the same time increasing the hiring standards to a point where experienced officers from one town are not hirable in another because of psyche exams, etc.

They are happy to have us doing it for nothing, and are not interested in "new business".

My state is also notorious for having "challenges" with regards to SAR response and capabilities, and also with funding of these agencies.

Tony Resko's little party is anticipated to start the ball rolling on fixing many of the governmental issues, not to mention potentially causing issues for the Democratic Presidential Nominee, but not overnight.

[Jolt]

This is an honest question.  Although it may sound ambitious, would it be possible for CAP to create MOUs with local police departments to allow the police department to task CAP as a SAR asset?  If we could actually make ourselves available 24/7/365 with 1 hour or less preparation time, I could see some departments occasionally asking to use us.

Is that at all feasible?

[calguy]

Maybe the sheriffs should send reserve deputies to all those false burgular alarms (like ELTs, ninety plus percent false) and the fire departments should send volunteers in reserve engines to all those  fire alarms (most are false too) and keep the paid guys in those new crown vics just to respond to the real alarms!  
Fire and police don't do that!  They must and do treat all alarms as real just like we should with ELTs.  I know, why should we worry about a signal plotting in the middle of Los Angeles?  Ever heard of Griffith Park?  Yes, a plane did crash there, its ELT went off and nobody responded from CAP until morning.  By than, the LAPD in their Jet Rangers and LAFD in their Hueys found it.  The Coast Guard on the East Coast paid millions for not responding to a mayday call just off the coast.  The bodies were found the next morning on the beach near where their boar crashed against a jetty.  Really Bad PR!

[Eclipse]

This is an honest question.  Although it may sound ambitious, would it be possible for CAP to create MOUs with local police departments to allow the police department to task CAP as a SAR asset?  If we could actually make ourselves available 24/7/365 with 1 hour or less preparation time, I could see some departments occasionally asking to use us.

Is that at all feasible?

Yes, it is not only feasible, it is fairly common is various places, the issue is not the agreement, it is the ability of CAP to fulfill the responsibility.

[Eclipse]

Maybe the sheriffs should send reserve deputies to all those false burgular alarms (like ELTs, ninety plus percent false) and the fire departments should send volunteers in reserve engines to all those  fire alarms (most are false too) and keep the paid guys in those new crown vics just to respond to the real alarms! 
Fire and police don't do that!  They must and do treat all alarms as real just like we should with ELTs.  I know, why should we worry about a signal plotting in the middle of Los Angeles?  Ever heard of Griffith Park?  Yes, a plane did crash there, its ELT went off and nobody responded from CAP until morning.  By than, the LAPD in their Jet Rangers and LAFD in their Hueys found it.  The Coast Guard on the East Coast paid millions for not responding to a mayday call just off the coast.  The bodies were found the next morning on the beach near where their boar crashed against a jetty.  Really Bad PR!

If CAP, as the primary responder, cannot or will not fulfill its responsibility, then its appropriate to move that response elsewhere.  It is just unfortunate that the situation reached that level, whenever that was.

[Jolt]

Yes, it is not only feasible, it is fairly common is various places, the issue is not the agreement, it is the ability of CAP to fulfill the responsibility.

Hopefully that will be a deal breaker for getting a group of committed ground team members together.

[Eclipse]

Yes, it is not only feasible, it is fairly common is various places, the issue is not the agreement, it is the ability of CAP to fulfill the responsibility.

Hopefully that will be a deal breaker for getting a group of committed ground team members together.

That's part of the problem, its not just one motivated group, it has to be enough people to sustain multiple operations or concurrent/ consecutive activity on the same night.

While admittedly the majority of CAP missions are encapsulated events, if you expect to be penciled as part of an official response plan, you have to have depth at all the important positions.

Sustained operations are much different for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is most people have to go to work eventually.

[Short Field]

I think people are forgetting that CAP cannot enter private property without the approval of the owner.  LE can and routinely does enter private property.  Makes finding and turning off the ELT a lot easier in some cases.   A good relationship with local LE makes CAPs missions a lot easier.