Turning over ELTs to the Cops

[Flying Pig]

I was reading the post about the alerting system, and I thought......

The thing I don't get about ELT's being turned over to the Sheriff, is that many don't have any DF equipment, and 99% of our Deputies in my 900 man Dept wouldn't even know what an ELT is.  Not to mention how to find one or even what to do if they did find it.   

Prior to rejoining CAP, I was at work and we received a message on my computer in my patrol car put out department wide as a "Be on the Look out"  for an ELT going of in the vicinity of a local airport.  And the message was sent "Per LTC XXXX, Civil Air Patrol, Mission Incident Commander."   Does anyone work with an LE agency that can actually DF an ELT?  Other guys and the Sgt. knew I was a pilot and started sending me messages asking me what it was all about and what did an "ELT" look like.

We basically had a couple patrol units put in the Lat Long into our GPS's and we were reasonably able to determine it was on the airport.   About 5 hours later when our helicopter crew came on, they flew the area to make sure there wasn't a Cessna buried in the fields nearby.  That was the extent of our DF capabilities for a pretty modern department.  So I would say understanding your local Dept's DF'ing capabilities would be a good thing to know.

[RiverAux]

In my area some of the county emergency managers could give it a go with a regular radio receiver, but usually turning it over to the cops means that they might call the airport manager to take a look around. 

[wuzafuzz]

Much of the time the Sheriff has the legal responsibility for SAR in their county.  Having said that, I've never seen sworn personnel track ELT's.  Usually they delegated the task to the Sheriff's volunteer SAR team or the local airport staff.  CAP was a distant 3rd place.  

Unfortunately there were times coordination between on-duty coppers, SAR, and CAP was nonexistent.  Improving those relationships would provide a lot of bang for the buck so everyone can do what they do best.  Getting past "ownership" of emergency response was the biggest challenge in my experience.  I dealt with a local SAR team who didn't want to "share" ELT's with CAP or airport staff.  It was their gig and they wanted the call outs.  Eventually we created an MOU that defined responsibilities and improved coordination.

[mikeylikey]

My Sate gave a grant to all County Airports for the purpose of purchasing DF equipment.  So, 1 week later the number of ELT missions dropped bigtime.  Occasionally we will still get a ELT mission, but only after the Airport has closed etc. 

[Eclipse]

^^ Since AFRCC and CAP are the lead agencies in ELT searches, how can another agency "refuse to share"?

Sound to me like a big C-F caused CAP to be kicked out officially, forcing local agencies to become the local alerted responders, because otherwise they wouldn't even know about them.

[wuzafuzz]

^^ Since AFRCC and CAP are the lead agencies in ELT searches, how can another agency "refuse to share"?

Sound to me like a big C-F caused CAP to be kicked out officially, forcing local agencies to become the local alerted responders, because otherwise they wouldn't even know about them.

How can an agency refuse to share?  I don't mean to be flippant, but all it takes is for the SAR folks say "Call us for ELT's."  Sometimes there is also the mindset that "we are 'more official' than you are" or the Sheriff's SAR team says "Hey why can't we do that?"  Since they work for the Sheriff who has primary SAR responsibility under state law, everyone else has to play nice and take the scraps that get tossed their way.  Even on an AFAM we had to cooperate with the Sheriff's Dept.  It may have been been productive, but it was real.  Fortunately, that was a long time ago and isn't a concern where I live now.

As far as who gets alerted and in what order, as an airport patrol officer I often received calls directly from AFRCC even though there was a CAP squadron based on the same airport.  AFRCC sometimes called us because we could find an ELT before CAP got out of bed and drove to the airport.  CAP wasn't officially kicked out but the early bird got the worm. 

Does AFRCC HAVE to call CAP if they know of another resource in the area?  It wouldn't be a big stretch for them to have a database of resources sorted by location.

I bet the circumstances are similar in other places.

[KyCAP]

AFRCC calls the primary agency listed for ELT's that is delegated by the State or Commonwealth in which the ELT is thought to be going off in.

ie.  The state you live in could decide to NOT delegate ELT / airplace search and locate operations searches to CAP (I believe) and delegate to whoever they want.


From AFRCC web site:
http://www.acc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3721

"State Agencies

Most of the states in the inland area have a specific responsibility for search and rescue. This may be a state agency without aircraft, or in other cases, a complete well trained responsive SAR organization with state-salaried mission coordinators and state-owned aircraft. AFRCC involvement with specific states differs depending upon the states assumption of SAR responsibility. Established SAR agreements between each state's governers and the executive agent for inland SAR "spell out" exactly who is responsible for the various emergencies and which agency will assume mission control.

When state SAR agencies elect to retain SAR mission responsibility, the AFRCC will continue to assist by coordinating the response of requested federal resources. For a complete listing of state emergency management agency web sites, click here.

In KY the Emergency Operations Plan for Airplace "Search" specifically delegates this task back to AFRCC and CAP until "located".

Section III - C Section L http://kyem.ky.gov/NR/rdonlyres/197CC054-C079-4877-BE2F-BAA237CDB07D/0/ANNEXLALL.pdf

[PA Guy]

Yrs ago I helped train the San Bernardino County Sheriff, in SoCal, SAR teams in how to DF.  They had DF equipment but had little interest in it.  I also recall Riverside Mtn. Rescue had DF capability but they also had little interest in using it.

I worked several missions with San Bernardino County Sheriff where all they wanted from CAP was our DF/ELT expertise.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I had a late-night ELT alert a few months ago, and tracked it to a house with a boat in the driveway.  I did not want to prosecute the search onto private property at 0400 local time wearing BDU in Florida without police assistance.  The sheriff responded, and I explained what was going on.  He had no clue what I was talking about.

He woke up the homeowner, pointed at me, and said:  "This is Major Kachenmeister from the Air Force Patrol.  He'll tell you what he wants."

[Flying Pig]

HAAAAAA!!!!!  Nothing like having the cops pave the way.

[isuhawkeye]

Also,

It is practice for RCC to call local airports before SAR resources are deployed,

[wingnut]

in 2 more years this all goes away,  the AFRCC will no longer respond to 121.5 ELTs going off, The Coast Guard has said the same thing.

[sardak]

The Cospas-Sarsat system stops listening to 121.5/243.0 MHz on February 1, 2009.

In answer to a question at last week's national state SAR coordinators meeting, the AFRCC/CC said that 121.5 reports received by other means will still be investigated and missions initiated as required.

Mike

[JoeTomasone]

And as pointed out in other threads, this doesn't make UDF missions go away for several reasons.

[calguy]

In California, the Sheriff of the county is responsible for SAR in his county.  Most departments yield to CAP for ELTs but if CAP cannot respond, it is their problem.  That is one of the reasons the State OES in California give CAWG almost $100,000 a year.  Sadly, CAWG is all too often not up for the missions.  Lately, more traffic is saying "mission was turned over to the sheriif due to a lack of resources".  I know as a WMAO, I had over a dozens ICs on a 24/7 list that would NEVER take a mission.  It all falls on the backs of 2 or 3 default ICs and a few ground and aircrews.  The CHP has DF in some of thier aircraft as well as some sheriff's air units.  That $100,000 could buy df units for all the sheriff departments and CAP could get out of the ELT business.  I am sure we could train their folks and be done with it and we could get rid of a few old aircraft since we won't be needing those for SAR too.  Win-Win!  Remember, after Feb 2009, 121.5 ELTs will still be going off, we just won't have SARSAT hits to narrow the area down.  Since we won't fly at night or in IMC, all the more to get out of the ELT business. :clap:

[RiverAux]

It sounds like CA Wing has a serious problem and needs to start cleaning out a lot of deadweight ICs that need to be dropped back to OSC.  Sure, I'd hate to give up a qualified IC, but it sounds like your current large list isn't really helping you much. 

Hopefully when ELT missions drop off a bit, some of the ICs will be a little more willing to take a call.  When you're getting called on a weekly basis, I can see why many would lose enthusiasm fairly quickly. 

[wingnut]

CAlguy your suffering from ROTORBRAIN

Lets do the math! the 100,000 is not just for ELTs, it is for all the things we do for the State and the Air Force.

Calguy, what is the cost of a Huey to operate for 4 hours, would $4,000 about cover it? let me see, the fossett mission would have Bankrupted both LA county and San Diego county.  Four or five ELTs in a month would cost the Sheriff at least $20,000, do you think they would be any better than us.

Lets talk about repairing what we have, yes the 406  will change what we do, but as you well know most of the downed aircraft this year had "NO ELT" activated. The big question is how do we clean up out problems and not throw out the baby with the water.

Sorry but one last thing, $100,000 will buy what?  maybe five Becker DF units?

[calguy]

Many wings and counties have HAMS, explorer scouts, MRA teams doing the ELT searches as well as the volunteer sheriff SAR teams.  Little cost there.  As far as Hueys and the like, those aircraft are already budgeted for and are already available for patrol duties, SAR, transports etc.  The State OES provides CAWG the monies to provide support to the State through OES missions. ie  SAR, dog teams, OES transports.  $100,000 for Beckers would be nice but our problem is not equipment, but people willing to do Emergency Services.  I think CAWG needs to either step up to the plate or yield to the other SAR teams.  If Fossett was just a no name pilot, do you think we would have been able to support the mission the way NV & CAWG did?

[wingnut]

but the Counties are broke, gas is $7.00 per gallon, yes I guess the fire departments are looking for anything to do, why we could use a Huey to get cats out of trees. . .

Maybe we should just fix the broken part of the CAP on the West Coast, but I fail to understand why we as an organization have allowed so many ELT false alarms, if you are in any city in California and your Burglar alarms falsely you will be fined after a false alarm that is negligence, bad mistake having CAP becoming a FREE ELT maintenance company for pilots and Boaters.

hey if you have 20 elts going off every 3  or 4 months and no plane crash, remember chicken little, people who volunteer for CAP are human and they get burned out, the system has not taken into account the personal factor, MORAL is in the doldrums, if CAWG was a "real" military unit there would be a newspaper reporter all over them.

I am glad I live in another wing

[isuhawkeye]

The Huey's are budgeted and paid for,  For the most part they are not looking to save any money on their program.  What they are doing is looking to justify the expense.  That means grabbing on to most any mission that comes along. 

Most municipal aviation programs are constantly justifying funding, and they look for any excuse to fly.

[calguy]

Now here is a person that understands goverment.   Spend all you money before the end of the year = more $$$ next year.   Have a surplus at the end of the year = less $$$ next year. Take on more missions = more $$$.  In Los Angeles County we have several Sheriff's SAR Volunteer teams.  They all stay very busy, have required training several times every month, must buy much of their own equipment and the have a line of people wanting to join and willing to pay.
I see in the closing traffic of late that the LA County Sheriffs are now flying these missions for us.  I also see where the Sierra Marde team has been practicing on 121.775.  Maybe the see the future of CAP?

[maverik]

Yeah back in my old town when my unit was called out the sheriffs googled Search and Rescue. That was our only mission. But the thing is (idea for fundraiser) CAP units could train local cops to use df equipment.

[JayT]

Yeah back in my old town when my unit was called out the sheriffs googled Search and Rescue. That wa sour only mission. But the thing is (idea for fundraiser) CAP units could train local cops to use df equipment.

So, you think your enough of an expert for your unit to change a professional cop on how to use equipment?

[Flying Pig]

There aren't many, if any counties that are going to do a search with a Huey.  Nor are they going to look for an ELT with a Huey.  A rescue? Sure, but not a regular search.  Where I am, we are preparing to get a Huey, but it will be used for more specialized missions like transporting SAR members to locations, or SWAT operations.  Right now, we have two MD500E's and a Cessna 206 that we use, but when we are taking SAR guys to 10,000 ft. back in the Sierras we can only take one at a time in the 500.  It can take several hours to insert the whole team and their gear.
As far as us not wanting to save money?  Thats not really true.  If we are budgeted, we are going to spend it because it has been alloted to us by the Board of Supervisors.  We spend what we are alloted by the Department, but we don't waste it.  My unit is budgeted for about 1800 hrs per year.  We rarely hit that mark because of weather, maintenance, etc.  Nor, do we run out and hover the helicopter for 100 hours on December 31st so our budget doesnt get cut.  If they are going to cut our budget, they are going to cut our budget.

But, let me play Devils Advocate here...I am an LE and CAP Mission Pilot, so I live in both worlds. The aircraft we fly at work are budgeted for X number of hours per year.  The money is there....it's already in the bank. The county has said we can spend it.   Why should the Sheriff not fly ELT missions?  The costs to us would probably be reimbursed by the state.  We could take all of CAP's ground DF equipment and training money given to each wing and reissue it to the Depts and SAR deputies who are already working, already on duty, and always on call. They are in good physical shape, and are all trained to the same standards.  We can go onto people property to shut them off, and even go into your garage or hangar if we need to.  If someone wants to get silly with us...we can deal with that too.  
We are available with aircraft that are FLIR and spot light equipped, who pilots can fly on NVG's, in bad weather, into the mountains at night.  We have ground teams that are available 24/7 with the necessary equipment and direct communication to be completely self supporting in all aspects of anything we may encounter. We have the ability to call in additional resources immediately if needed.  No flight releases, none of the paperwork, no Mission base, no checking if people have completed ICS 700 800 or 100000 or whatever the flavor of the week happens to be.  We have  IC's who's sole duty in life is SAR, 7 days a week. Not someone who manages an auto parts store Mon-Fri and completed some online courses.  And its a service already paid for and provided to the county tax payer.

I can tell you the reason most agencies don't do this is because they probably don't even know the mission exists. So in times of fiscal crisis, and just nature of agencies looking for missions, for many of you who want to run out and force your mission on local government agencies, you may be cutting your own throats in the end.  
If your relying on the argument of "But were Free! And they are just looking for an excuse to fly."  Try again.  I can show you a list of missions that have been turned over to the Sheriff with the line  "Per CAP Mission Commander Capt. XXXXX."  And when the time comes, the research will be done, and the number of missions CAP has turned over the the Sheriff will be tallied, and the argument that  will be made is "What if that ELT had been you or your loved one Mr. and Mrs. Supervisor?"  And next thing you know, your local Po-Dunk  Sheriff will have his brand new Cessna 182 and an election feather in his hat for his next campaign.

You don't have to like it.

[JoeTomasone]

Well, yeah, but we can wear berets while we search.

If our Wing Commander says so.

So there.   


Sarcasm aside, you make a very valid point.   The only counterpoint I might make if I were to defend CAP is that Law Enforcement personnel should be dedicated to law enforcement, not SAR.   We don't see Law Enforcement being called out to fight fires when the volunteer fire department has "resource issues", do we?

The real solution to this is to recruit, train, utilize, and retain CAP members more effectively.   I see too many Squadrons who do not participate in ES for various reasons, mostly relating to a lack of mentors to shepherd them through the process of getting interested, qualified, and utilized.   

[Flying Pig]

Not true.  One of the primary missions of the Sheriff is to proved SAR services the county.  That is mandated by law.  As far as the volunteer fireman issue....The county or State Fire service would pick up the slack.  In a county, if a city doesn't have or cant afford a police force, the Sheriff is responsible to patrol the city whether they like it or not.
And, yes, there are many cities where the police officers also double as firefighters. They carry their gear in their vehicles and someone brings the truck.   Lets face it.  When it has to be done, and there is nobody else around who do people ultimately call?  They call the cops.  Getting the job done almost always falls to law enforcement in the event that nobody else is around.

[maverik]

Yeah back in my old town when my unit was called out the sheriffs googled Search and Rescue. That wa sour only mission. But the thing is (idea for fundraiser) CAP units could train local cops to use df equipment.

So, you think your enough of an expert for your unit to change a professional cop on how to use equipment?

I made no such comment but your wing ES director could oversee the operation and the more qualified ground team members could have a class on how to use the DF equipment. No offense to anyone or myself ,but it doesn't take a genius to operate DF equipment.

[isuhawkeye]

if its that easy to do...

why pay for cap to do it?

[JoeTomasone]

No offense to anyone or myself ,but it doesn't take a genius to operate DF equipment.

No, but it takes skill to operate it with efficiency and confidence.

[JoeTomasone]

Not true.  One of the primary missions of the Sheriff is to proved SAR services the county.  That is mandated by law.  As far as the volunteer fireman issue....The county or State Fire service would pick up the slack.  In a county, if a city doesn't have or cant afford a police force, the Sheriff is responsible to patrol the city whether they like it or not.
And, yes, there are many cities where the police officers also double as firefighters. They carry their gear in their vehicles and someone brings the truck.   Lets face it.  When it has to be done, and there is nobody else around who do people ultimately call?  They call the cops.  Getting the job done almost always falls to law enforcement in the event that nobody else is around.

OK, so in CA it's a little different. 

Not debating that "when in doubt, call the cops" exists, but if LE is out chasing an ELT at the same time that a bank is robbed, I can see the question coming up of why they were out chasing ELTs instead of criminals.

After all, CAP can't chase the criminals.

[Flying Pig]

I think Im not explaining it well.  In police work, we aren't ALL out patrolling in cars.  We have assignments from SAR, anti-terrorism, motors, aviation, boating units, horse patrol etc. 
The guy who would be looking for the ELT isn't the same guy who would be going after a bank robber.  Anyway..... 

LE is usually the agency equipped with to even begin to deal with an ELT because the fire guys arent going to do it.  No slam on them,  but as it is set up, the vast majority of anything SAR related is going to fall to Law Enforcement when it comes to something like an ELT.

[maverik]

No offense to anyone or myself ,but it doesn't take a genius to operate DF equipment.

No, but it takes skill to operate it with efficiency and confidence.

True and that's where you can make your money or do what my squadron did do it as community service to get the name CAP out there so that we will respond to more incidents and our squadron has had a 10 cadet increase since we started doing that kind of stuff.

[Eclipse]

I think Im not explaining it well.  In police work, we aren't ALL out patrolling in cars.  We have assignments from SAR, anti-terrorism, motors, aviation, boating units, horse patrol etc. 
The guy who would be looking for the ELT isn't the same guy who would be going after a bank robber.  Anyway..... 

LE is usually the agency equipped with to even begin to deal with an ELT because the fire guys arent going to do it.  No slam on them,  but as it is set up, the vast majority of anything SAR related is going to fall to Law Enforcement when it comes to something like an ELT.

California is obviously a different animal from many other states.

Around these Midwestern parts, the PD's and FD's are barely able to maintain readiness for their "real" jobs, and would be calling in off duty guys to execute DF work.  Many of the towns around here, where DF is needed, have had significant attrition, while at the same time increasing the hiring standards to a point where experienced officers from one town are not hirable in another because of psyche exams, etc.

They are happy to have us doing it for nothing, and are not interested in "new business".

My state is also notorious for having "challenges" with regards to SAR response and capabilities, and also with funding of these agencies.

Tony Resko's little party is anticipated to start the ball rolling on fixing many of the governmental issues, not to mention potentially causing issues for the Democratic Presidential Nominee, but not overnight.

[Jolt]

This is an honest question.  Although it may sound ambitious, would it be possible for CAP to create MOUs with local police departments to allow the police department to task CAP as a SAR asset?  If we could actually make ourselves available 24/7/365 with 1 hour or less preparation time, I could see some departments occasionally asking to use us.

Is that at all feasible?

[calguy]

Maybe the sheriffs should send reserve deputies to all those false burgular alarms (like ELTs, ninety plus percent false) and the fire departments should send volunteers in reserve engines to all those  fire alarms (most are false too) and keep the paid guys in those new crown vics just to respond to the real alarms!  
Fire and police don't do that!  They must and do treat all alarms as real just like we should with ELTs.  I know, why should we worry about a signal plotting in the middle of Los Angeles?  Ever heard of Griffith Park?  Yes, a plane did crash there, its ELT went off and nobody responded from CAP until morning.  By than, the LAPD in their Jet Rangers and LAFD in their Hueys found it.  The Coast Guard on the East Coast paid millions for not responding to a mayday call just off the coast.  The bodies were found the next morning on the beach near where their boar crashed against a jetty.  Really Bad PR!

[Eclipse]

This is an honest question.  Although it may sound ambitious, would it be possible for CAP to create MOUs with local police departments to allow the police department to task CAP as a SAR asset?  If we could actually make ourselves available 24/7/365 with 1 hour or less preparation time, I could see some departments occasionally asking to use us.

Is that at all feasible?

Yes, it is not only feasible, it is fairly common is various places, the issue is not the agreement, it is the ability of CAP to fulfill the responsibility.

[Eclipse]

Maybe the sheriffs should send reserve deputies to all those false burgular alarms (like ELTs, ninety plus percent false) and the fire departments should send volunteers in reserve engines to all those  fire alarms (most are false too) and keep the paid guys in those new crown vics just to respond to the real alarms! 
Fire and police don't do that!  They must and do treat all alarms as real just like we should with ELTs.  I know, why should we worry about a signal plotting in the middle of Los Angeles?  Ever heard of Griffith Park?  Yes, a plane did crash there, its ELT went off and nobody responded from CAP until morning.  By than, the LAPD in their Jet Rangers and LAFD in their Hueys found it.  The Coast Guard on the East Coast paid millions for not responding to a mayday call just off the coast.  The bodies were found the next morning on the beach near where their boar crashed against a jetty.  Really Bad PR!

If CAP, as the primary responder, cannot or will not fulfill its responsibility, then its appropriate to move that response elsewhere.  It is just unfortunate that the situation reached that level, whenever that was.

[Jolt]

Yes, it is not only feasible, it is fairly common is various places, the issue is not the agreement, it is the ability of CAP to fulfill the responsibility.

Hopefully that will be a deal breaker for getting a group of committed ground team members together.

[Eclipse]

Yes, it is not only feasible, it is fairly common is various places, the issue is not the agreement, it is the ability of CAP to fulfill the responsibility.

Hopefully that will be a deal breaker for getting a group of committed ground team members together.

That's part of the problem, its not just one motivated group, it has to be enough people to sustain multiple operations or concurrent/ consecutive activity on the same night.

While admittedly the majority of CAP missions are encapsulated events, if you expect to be penciled as part of an official response plan, you have to have depth at all the important positions.

Sustained operations are much different for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is most people have to go to work eventually.

[Short Field]

I think people are forgetting that CAP cannot enter private property without the approval of the owner.  LE can and routinely does enter private property.  Makes finding and turning off the ELT a lot easier in some cases.   A good relationship with local LE makes CAPs missions a lot easier.

[isuhawkeye]

in my experience many ELT missions ended up having LEO present

[Jolt]

in my experience many ELT missions ended up having LEO present

The last ELT mission our GT had involved two police officers.  The difference is that only one police officer was tied up escorting our ground team around as opposed to an entire group of police officers hunting down the ELT themselves.

[RiverAux]

Good luck getting an MOU approved.  The AF lawyers have more or less nixed that idea the last I heard, though I suppose it still might be possible.  They seem to just want individual mission requests going to the NoC or AFRCC per the CAPabilities handbook. 

[Jolt]

Could we switch over to our corporate side and not worry about the Air Force lawyers?

[lordmonar]

Could we switch over to our corporate side and not worry about the Air Force lawyers?

You are wearing your Nomex Underwear right? 

[arajca]

Good luck getting an MOU approved.  The AF lawyers have more or less nixed that idea the last I heard, though I suppose it still might be possible.  They seem to just want individual mission requests going to the NoC or AFRCC per the CAPabilities handbook. 

It all depends on how the MOU is written. Some of the successful ones I have seen cover the AF requirements and have nicely deliniated cost and insurance issues. That way, when the requestor calls the NOC, they can easily reference the MOU and it makes approvals easier since the tricky parts are already done.

[isuhawkeye]

The difference is that only one police officer was tied up escorting our ground team around as opposed to an entire group of police officers hunting down the ELT themselves.

How many police officers do you think it would take to turn off an ELT.  CAP only requires 2 for a UDF team

[Flying Pig]

An entire group of police officers.......

[JohnKachenmeister]

One riot... one Ranger!

[SAR-EMT1]

My question is this: why does LE have a responsibility for SAR in the first place?

In my experience it's usually the local FD or the local FEMA / EMA chapter, not LE.

As for ELT searches... I highly doubt the ability of my local associates to find one.

... Then again in Central IL, finding a downed plane is as easy as looking into the field and saying: "there it is"

[RiverAux]

I'd say its a hold-over from the old days when the only agency that did emergency response was the county sheriff or local police.  Someone official had to be in charge of it.  Its really been a fairly recent development to have full-time emergency management folks and even then its often just one or two people, even in large counties, and they don't have their own manpower to handle it themselves.  Plus, since foul play can sometimes be involved in missing persons cases, it makes some sense to have LE responsible for investigating it. 

Is it the best way to handle the situation now -- in most places it probably still is. 

[Jolt]

My question is this: why does LE have a responsibility for SAR in the first place?

In my experience it's usually the local FD or the local FEMA / EMA chapter, not LE.

As for ELT searches... I highly doubt the ability of my local associates to find one.

... Then again in Central IL, finding a downed plane is as easy as looking into the field and saying: "there it is"

My town's fire department recently did some SAR training actually.  The only real mention they made about LEOs helping in the search was in regards to the K-9 officer.

[_]

Plus, since foul play can sometimes be involved in missing persons cases, it makes some sense to have LE responsible for investigating it. 

The thinking is based on a missing person's search.  If someone goes missing, they went missing for a reason.  Most that go missing go because of foul play.  When searching for someone this should always be in your mind, and clues should be treated as evidence.  The whole criminal aspect is not really emphasized in CAP because we primarily do ELT's and crashed planes.  In those cases it's most likely not criminal so there isn't a need for a police agency to have jurisdiction so the Air Force runs things.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I don't think I understand the direction of this post.

Are we talking that law enforcement should have primary responsibility for ELT hunts?  Or, are we discussing the merits of having a police officer along for when we go prowling at 4:00 am?

If we are discussing cops taking over the ELT hunts, no.  That is a dumb idea.  Here's why:

1.  ELT's are a little labor-intensive.  It takes a couple of hours to locate and track one.  Tying up two or more cops for several hours looking for an ELT is just not going to happen.  Cops are needed to do other things.

2.  You need an aircraft to locate an ELT.  Most cops do not have aircraft available.  That's a big war-stopper right there.  For those cops that DO have an aviation section, see comment 1 above.

3.  ELT's do not respect jurisdictional borders.  Cops do.  If it looks like the ELT is down in an adjoining county or city, end of search.  Call the next door neighbors.  If they track it back to our county, OK, we'll try again, but I think its yours.  If you don't believe me, I'll tell you some true stories about finding nut cases and dropping them off in neighboring cities.

As for calling a cop before entering private property, oh, YEAH.  That HAS to happen.  Maybe the Massachusetts Wing can prowl around houses with impunity, but in Florida, we're big Second Amendment supporters.  Sneaking around somebody's boat in the back yard carrying a funny-looking stick in the middle of the night can get you shot.

[JoeTomasone]

As for calling a cop before entering private property, oh, YEAH.  That HAS to happen.  Maybe the Massachusetts Wing can prowl around houses with impunity, but in Florida, we're big Second Amendment supporters.  Sneaking around somebody's boat in the back yard carrying a funny-looking stick in the middle of the night can get you shot.

Or even going to the front door.   We found an ELT at a private residence in Tampa whose owner answered the doorbell with a gun - fortunately not displayed once he saw the uniforms, but declared once we entered the house.    Even if I had LE with me, I would absolutely notify the owners before searching in a yard once I was convinced it was on their property.   That's not just common sense, it's the polite thing to do.

[JohnKachenmeister]

As for calling a cop before entering private property, oh, YEAH.  That HAS to happen.  Maybe the Massachusetts Wing can prowl around houses with impunity, but in Florida, we're big Second Amendment supporters.  Sneaking around somebody's boat in the back yard carrying a funny-looking stick in the middle of the night can get you shot.

Or even going to the front door.   We found an ELT at a private residence in Tampa whose owner answered the doorbell with a gun - fortunately not displayed once he saw the uniforms, but declared once we entered the house.    Even if I had LE with me, I would absolutely notify the owners before searching in a yard once I was convinced it was on their property.   That's not just common sense, it's the polite thing to do.

Somebody knocking on MY door at 4 am will be greeted by a large dog and a chubby old man.  The dog is not a threat.  He barks but is very friendly.  The old man, however, will be carrying a .45 caliber M-1911A1.  He is not friendly at 4 am, and he bites.

[tribalelder]

As many point out, LE involvement is a safety issue.  Since CAP doesn't get called until the long distance rates go down, urban-area ELT searches go on, for the most part, after dark.  As most parents will attest, hardly anything GOOD happens after 10 PM. 

Nobody wants to startle folks who are armed (LE) or potentially armed (homeowners defending their homes). 

Besides, a call to the PD can get you intel you don't have (like that boat storage yard over the hill) and/or an escort with flashing red and blue lights so the law-abiding homeowner is much less likely to make armed respond to a mistaken threat when he looks out the peephole.

Let's not have the "Your Name Here" Flight Scholarship.

[SAR-EMT1]

Somebody knocking on MY door at 4 am will be greeted by a large dog and a chubby old man.  The dog is not a threat.  He barks but is very friendly.  The old man, however, will be carrying a .45 caliber M-1911A1.  He is not friendly at 4 am, and he bites.

John, this just made me crack up.
I have to ask: what kind of dog do you have?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Somebody knocking on MY door at 4 am will be greeted by a large dog and a chubby old man.  The dog is not a threat.  He barks but is very friendly.  The old man, however, will be carrying a .45 caliber M-1911A1.  He is not friendly at 4 am, and he bites.

John, this just made me crack up.
I have to ask: what kind of dog do you have?

An Australian Cattle Dog.  He looks like a small German Shepard.  His color was poor for the breed, almost black when they are supposed to have a blue tint to their fur, so he was abandoned by his former owner.  He got arrested by the Dog Police for being an abandoned dog, and spent a few months in Dog Jail.  I bailed him out.

His myspace is : www.myspace.com/aussiefloridadog.

[SAR-EMT1]

To the topic at hand:

How many times do you think the Local PD knows what an ELT is?
Or rather... of all the times the AFRCC calls PD instead of us, how much time is spent on the phone with the desk Sgt. explaining the situation?

Sidenote: Kach... that website is cute but disturbing. I > HOPE < your wife created it and not Aussie's "People Daddy"   

[JohnKachenmeister]

To the topic at hand:

How many times do you think the Local PD knows what an ELT is?
Or rather... of all the times the AFRCC calls PD instead of us, how much time is spent on the phone with the desk Sgt. explaining the situation?

Sidenote: Kach... that website is cute but disturbing. I > HOPE < your wife created it and not Aussie's "People Daddy"   

My daughter put up the graphics.  I wrote the "About me" based on what Aussie told me.  I also selected the music.

[Flying Pig]

To the topic at hand:

How many times do you think the Local PD knows what an ELT is?
Or rather... of all the times the AFRCC calls PD instead of us, how much time is spent on the phone with the desk Sgt. explaining the situation?

Sidenote: Kach... that website is cute but disturbing. I > HOPE < your wife created it and not Aussie's "People Daddy"   

I would say the vast majority of cops have no idea what an ELT is, and that if AFRCC called the watch commander, the WC would probably hang up on them thinking it was a prank call!

[RiverAux]

I would predict that many of them would think that there was an actual plane crash and scramble the whole whole department.

[JohnKachenmeister]

To train a new force, in this case all the cops in the country, to deal with ELT's would be a monster of a committment.  Why bother to do that, when we already exist?

[isuhawkeye]

[Johnny Yuma]

Here in KSWG CAP's the Agency on ELT's. The only other agency that has a clue what an ELT is would be the Highway Patrol as they're the lead investigating agency for all aviation accidents in the state. They work up the initial aircraft accidents and work with the FAA/NTSB.

Usually any ELT run after dark involves Law Enforcement. If nothing else the IC's brief the on duty shift commander as to what's going on. Any knocking on doors after dark especially involve the cops. Once they're on site, you explain to them what an ELT does, that it's more than likely a false alarm but the USAF wants it turned off as it's causing problems then they're usually on board.

One IC learned his lesson a couple years ago. We worked an ELT mission not too far away from my city where the ground guys couldn't get a fix and the aircraft could only hear it weakly. They got us kinda close when we realized we were going to have to start knocking on doors at 0200. I called the Sheriff only to find that an aircraft had gone down earlier in the day and the pilot walked away Ok. The KHP trooper couldn't find the ELT. Had the IC made one phone call we'd have had this wrapped up in 45 minutes versus 5 hours. The reason for the weak signal - antenna on the belly, buried 4 inches into the Kansas prairie.

We also have a couple private airstrips where it's SOP that if there's an ELT going off there we wait for the cops, period. The owner's a real anti-government nutjob who literally hates anyone or anything in a uniform. I've had to deal with him a couple times on ELT missions and always involved the cops.