Incident Commander Requirements

[Eclipse]

On an A or B mission, the boss is the IC.

Even on a C - if it has a mission #, it's got an IC, and pretty much everything has a mission number, even O-rides.

[Storm Chaser]

CAP always provides resources in a Unified Command, there's no issue with its use of the term IC.

There are no CAP missions without an IC appointed.

And what do you call the guy in charge of an incident that is not, per se, a CAP Mission, as that term is used?

Remember, incidents can be planned or unplanned, emergencies or non-emergencies. If CAP shows up to staff a shelter, hand out water bottles and blankets, that wouldn't mean that the CAP guy in charge is an "Incident Commander." S/he would take on the title appropriate to the assignment.

Meanwhile, staffing an airshow could well lend itself to the ICS structure, with the head CAP guy being perhaps the IC, either alone or as part of Unified Command. But that IC wouldn't need to be a rated CAP IC in order to actually be the IC.

All I'm saying is that it is confusing and doesn't have to be. And I'm especially puzzled when people introduce themselves as "LtCol O'Ramirezwitz - I'm the CAP Incident Commander" when I know who the Incident Commander is - and it isn't him.

When responding to an incident in which CAP is not the lead agency, CAP will appoint an IC who will be "the member responsible and in command of CAP resources supporting an incident.  If CAP is not the lead agency, a CAP member qualified in the IC achievement will serve as the CAP agency representative to the lead agency IC, and ensure that all CAP resources are used in accordance with approved polices and procedures." (CAPR 60-3, Para. 1-3d)

It's also possible for the CAP IC to have other role or function in the overall incident such as AOBD. In that case, the CAP IC is only IC with regards to CAP equipment and personnel, but will manage all air operations and assets for the entire incident.

[Storm Chaser]

CAP always provides resources in a Unified Command, there's no issue with its use of the term IC.

There are no CAP missions without an IC appointed.

And what do you call the guy in charge of an incident that is not, per se, a CAP Mission, as that term is used?

Remember, incidents can be planned or unplanned, emergencies or non-emergencies. If CAP shows up to staff a shelter, hand out water bottles and blankets, that wouldn't mean that the CAP guy in charge is an "Incident Commander." S/he would take on the title appropriate to the assignment.

Meanwhile, staffing an airshow could well lend itself to the ICS structure, with the head CAP guy being perhaps the IC, either alone or as part of Unified Command. But that IC wouldn't need to be a rated CAP IC in order to actually be the IC.

All I'm saying is that it is confusing and doesn't have to be. And I'm especially puzzled when people introduce themselves as "LtCol O'Ramirezwitz - I'm the CAP Incident Commander" when I know who the Incident Commander is - and it isn't him.

When responding to an incident in which CAP is not the lead agency, CAP will appoint an IC who will be "the member responsible and in command of CAP resources supporting an incident.  If CAP is not the lead agency, a CAP member qualified in the IC achievement will serve as the CAP agency representative to the lead agency IC, and ensure that all CAP resources are used in accordance with approved polices and procedures." (CAPR 60-3, Para. 1-3d)

It's also possible for the CAP IC to have other role or function in the overall incident such as AOBD. In that case, the CAP IC is only IC with regards to CAP equipment and personnel, but will manage all air operations and assets for the entire incident.

[Storm Chaser]

CAP always provides resources in a Unified Command, there's no issue with its use of the term IC.

There are no CAP missions without an IC appointed.

And what do you call the guy in charge of an incident that is not, per se, a CAP Mission, as that term is used?

Remember, incidents can be planned or unplanned, emergencies or non-emergencies. If CAP shows up to staff a shelter, hand out water bottles and blankets, that wouldn't mean that the CAP guy in charge is an "Incident Commander." S/he would take on the title appropriate to the assignment.

Meanwhile, staffing an airshow could well lend itself to the ICS structure, with the head CAP guy being perhaps the IC, either alone or as part of Unified Command. But that IC wouldn't need to be a rated CAP IC in order to actually be the IC.

All I'm saying is that it is confusing and doesn't have to be. And I'm especially puzzled when people introduce themselves as "LtCol O'Ramirezwitz - I'm the CAP Incident Commander" when I know who the Incident Commander is - and it isn't him.

When responding to an incident in which CAP is not the lead agency, CAP will appoint an IC who will be "the member responsible and in command of CAP resources supporting an incident.  If CAP is not the lead agency, a CAP member qualified in the IC achievement will serve as the CAP agency representative to the lead agency IC, and ensure that all CAP resources are used in accordance with approved polices and procedures." (CAPR 60-3, Para. 1-3d)

It's also possible for the CAP IC to have other role or function in the overall incident such as AOBD. In that case, the CAP IC is only IC with regards to CAP equipment and personnel, but will manage all air operations and assets for the entire incident.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

CAP always provides resources in a Unified Command, there's no issue with its use of the term IC.

There are no CAP missions without an IC appointed.

And what do you call the guy in charge of an incident that is not, per se, a CAP Mission, as that term is used?

Remember, incidents can be planned or unplanned, emergencies or non-emergencies. If CAP shows up to staff a shelter, hand out water bottles and blankets, that wouldn't mean that the CAP guy in charge is an "Incident Commander." S/he would take on the title appropriate to the assignment.

Meanwhile, staffing an airshow could well lend itself to the ICS structure, with the head CAP guy being perhaps the IC, either alone or as part of Unified Command. But that IC wouldn't need to be a rated CAP IC in order to actually be the IC.

All I'm saying is that it is confusing and doesn't have to be. And I'm especially puzzled when people introduce themselves as "LtCol O'Ramirezwitz - I'm the CAP Incident Commander" when I know who the Incident Commander is - and it isn't him.

When responding to an incident in which CAP is not the lead agency, CAP will appoint an IC who will be "the member responsible and in command of CAP resources supporting an incident.  If CAP is not the lead agency, a CAP member qualified in the IC achievement will serve as the CAP agency representative to the lead agency IC, and ensure that all CAP resources are used in accordance with approved polices and procedures." (CAPR 60-3, Para. 1-3d)

It's also possible for the CAP IC to have other role or function in the overall incident such as AOBD. In that case, the CAP IC is only IC with regards to CAP equipment and personnel, but will manage all air operations and assets for the entire incident.

See, this explanation is good, but that's not how people actually run it. An IC qualified Agency Rep. Or OPSO would be fantastic for plugging ourselves into an existing command structure, and is how we should be doing it for anything smaller scale than a regional level incident. Unfortunately, I have never seen this happen (and I have looked), but in every mission or exercise ive ever been to there has always been a CAP IC underneath the REAL IC....

I've never been able to understand that. This may be one of the reasons people get the idea that we want to "come in and take charge of the mission", and it seems to me like we want to mess with the ICS structure to suit ourselves. Instead of plugging ourselves into the structure and making ourselves useful, we stand up our own structure that stands a good chance of hindering the group above us, which is not ideal.

[Storm Chaser]

It's all about proper training. Unfortunately, we don't do enough training and exercises with other agencies. That would make a big difference and would better prepare us to work with each other.

ICs need to understand that when working in an incident where CAP is not the lead agency, their role is that of agency representative and, while they may be the assigned IC in WMIRS, their job is not to manage the incident, but to "ensure that all CAP resources are used in accordance with approved polices and procedures."

In ICS, the CAP Agency Representative (who must be a qualified IC according to CAPR 60-3), reports directly to the incident Liaison Officer or Incident Commander if there is no LO assigned. The CAP Agency Representative attends planning meetings as required, provides input to the planning process on the use of CAP resources, oversees the well-being and safety of CAP personnel assigned to the incident, advise the Liaison Officer (or IC) of any special CAP needs, requirements, or restrictions, ensures all CAP personnel and equipment are properly accounted for, among others.

[Mitchell 1969]

It's all about proper training. Unfortunately, we don't do enough training and exercises with other agencies. That would make a big difference and would better prepare us to work with each other.

ICs need to understand that when working in an incident where CAP is not the lead agency, their role is that of agency representative and, while they may be the assigned IC in WMIRS, their job is not to manage the incident, but to "ensure that all CAP resources are used in accordance with approved polices and procedures."

In ICS, the CAP Agency Representative (who must be a qualified IC according to CAPR 60-3), reports directly to the incident Liaison Officer or Incident Commander if there is no LO assigned. The CAP Agency Representative attends planning meetings as required, provides input to the planning process on the use of CAP resources, oversees the well-being and safety of CAP personnel assigned to the incident, advise the Liaison Officer (or IC) of any special CAP needs, requirements, or restrictions, ensures all CAP personnel and equipment are properly accounted for, among others.

Hence, my opinion re: CAP confusing matters by using standard ICS terminology in a non-standard way.

It would have been much clearer to simply retain "Mission Coirdinator," (or invent something else). Then write it that "When CAP is the lead agency, the IC will be a CAP member qualified as a Mission Coordinator. When CAP is not the lead agency, CAP resources will report to a CAP member qualified as a Mission Coordinator, who will serve as agency rep for CAP."

[lordmonar]

But we are using it in a standard way.

Just like the fire department does, just like the police department does, just like the USAF does.

What you are getting at is.....CAP never practices being a sub unit of someone else's Incident.

And yes....that's not a good thing.

That's what wing, region and National ES shops are supposed to be doing for us.

Until then.....We can only train as a single agency responder.

[Eclipse]

You're insinuating confusion where none exists.

This is not a "thing".

[PHall]

You guys do know that Mitchell 1969 is the retired Police Chief of the Los Angeles World Airports Police Department and has lots of experience working with the ICS system in multi-agency responses. CAP seems to be the "odd man out" here.  Maybe instead of using the title of IC when CAP is not in charge maybe we need something different like maybe OIC (Officer in Charge)?

[Luis R. Ramos]

To me all the arguments applying against "CAP Incident Commander" would also apply to "Officer in Charge."

Officer in Charge? In charge of what? Not of this incident!

Officer in Charge? Isn't the State So - and - So Department in charge here? So why is that person claiming to be OIC?

Etc.

[Holding Pattern]

Can someone point to an AAR or Lessons Learned doc on the HSDL or similar source pointing out where this was ever an issue?

[disamuel]

Just to answer an earlier part of the thread, in order to get to IC you will also need to complete ICS-300 and ICS-400. Those two classes represent five days of classroom work which cannot be completed online.

[stillamarine]

Just to answer an earlier part of the thread, in order to get to IC you will also need to complete ICS-300 and ICS-400. Those two classes represent five days of classroom work which cannot be completed online.

Many EMAs or FD or PD will host those classes over a weekend. Longer days but it works for people that work a 9-5

[PHall]

To me all the arguments applying against "CAP Incident Commander" would also apply to "Officer in Charge."

Officer in Charge? In charge of what? Not of this incident!

Officer in Charge? Isn't the State So - and - So Department in charge here? So why is that person claiming to be OIC?

Etc.

The Civil Air Patrol Officer In Charge.   Clear enough for ya?

[Eclipse]

The Civil Air Patrol Officer In Charge.   Clear enough for ya?

What if she's not an officer?

Silly enough for ya?

[Luis R. Ramos]

As clear as CAP Incident Commander.

My point is that we do not need to change terminology since the new words we decide on are going to be inducing the same ol' same ol'!

[PHall]

As clear as CAP Incident Commander.

My point is that we do not need to change terminology since the new words we decide on are going to be inducing the same ol' same ol'!

You can only have ONE Incident Commander at a time at an incident.   i.e. you can only work for one boss at a time.

[Eclipse]

You can only have ONE Incident Commander at a time at an incident.

Incorrect. Unified Command is common and allows for more then one.

Quoth the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Command_(ICS)
"In the Incident Command System, a Unified Command is an authority structure in which the role of incident commander is shared by two or more individuals, each already having authority in a different responding agency. Unified command is one way to carry out command in which responding agencies and/or jurisdictions with responsibility for the incident share incident management."

This is essentially how >all< CAP missions are conducted when CAP isn't the primary agency.

[Storm Chaser]

Any confusion or misunderstanding is most likely due to lack of proper training. I haven't seen the issue come up yet. It doesn't mean it hasn't come up in other wings, but I don't really thing it's CAP-wide problem. CAP missions always have an IC. The CAP IC may or may not be the IC for the overall incident. When CAP is the lead agency, the CAP IC is the IC for the overall incident. When CAP is not the lead agency, the CAP IC is the Agency Representative for CAP reporting to either the LO or IC for the overall incident. I just don't see how that's confusing.