ES Specialty Qualifications

[Eclipse]

You've admitted your way doesn't work, yet you insist that it's the only way.  Like I said, gets tiresome after a while.

You know what else gets "tiresome"? The abdication of responsibility by leadership and the membership just putting up their
hands and saying "whatever"...

Homegrown "solutions" just cause constant issues whenever there's a disagreement regarding the direction.

You might like using green Post-It's for GT and Blue for Aircrew.  I think Post-It's should all be yellow.

No one is right, no one is wrong, the next CC probably doesn't understand the conversation, so we just avoid working together.
That pretty much sums up ES in CAP right now, especially between wings and regions.

CAP-USAF has been pushing this inter-wing "cooperation" lately, fine, few wings can respond to a major event without
help, instead of being able to show up day-of and getting to work, it takes 6 months to plan because no one on the call
learned to do things the same way.

3 are grizzled and have had enough.

2 have "heard of ES and are really excited about the idea".

4 Are from 3 different wings, all "pioneering a new mission system they would love to try".

Been there done that, it's absolutely ridiculous for a national organization with federal funding and a
supposed life and property mandate.  There's a reason that fire training is nationally standardized.

The other thing is the number of times the same 10 questions keep coming up and NHQ refuses to
answer them definitively either because someone will be sad or because no one wants to be the bad guy.

What counts for First Aid and does it have to be renewed?  What are GES members really allowed to do?
What's the definition of DR?  How about the whole "what can a GTM1 vs. 3 do?"
What is the ES mission?  Who are the customers?   etc., etc. on infinitum.

This CERT business.

Asked directly, in writing, on phone of the OPRs, commanders and staff who are in charge of these decisions.  No definitive answers.

Simple questions which keep coming up, seem like baseline issues, and flabbergast new members who
get stuck between CC's who don't know and CCs who don't care.

People say "Who cares? We're getting the mission done."  Firstly, that's debatable - the occasional
anecdotal or circumstantial win doesn't indicate systematic success, and CAP certainly isn't living up
to the potential of the expectations the appropriations present.  For every wing with even a marginal
ES program, there is at least one essentially not involved in ES, or incapable of mounting a reasonable
response.  Yes, I know this for a fact.  I realize that a lot of people live in a local bubble and that's their
perception, but if my involvement on CT has afforded me anything, it's contact on a national scale. So
before you say "my wing is different" consider that.

It's important because it makes us look like a bunch of yahoos who just have no clue and always do
things through the path of least resistance, you know, like just making things up locally instead of pressing the leadership for standards.

Consistently and thoroughly trained commanders and staff can work with less stringent standards
because they have a base framework from which to form their ideas and make their decisions.

Poorly / untrained or inconsistently trained commanders need rigid standards in order to be able
to have a foundation to stand on while they figure out which form goes where and who is supposed to
do what.

For FSM's sake, CAP can't even decide what kind of hat to wear.

[rustyjeeper]

I would check with NHQ to see if the online only course counts at the CERT course.

I'm thinking....but I do not know for sure.....that the online course my only be part of the course.....with a hands course to add on.

I'm not CERT trained but several of my squadron mates are....and they all took week long training.

In fact the FEMA site even says

"Introduction to Community Emergency Response Teams," IS-317, is an independent study course that serves as an introduction to CERT for those wanting to complete training or as a refresher for current team members. It has six modules with topics that include an Introduction to CERT, Fire Safety, Hazardous Material and Terrorist Incidents, Disaster Medical Operations and Search and Rescue. It takes between six and eight hours to complete the course. Those who successfully finish it will receive a certificate of completion.

IS-317 can be taken by anyone interested in CERT. However, to become a CERT volunteer, one must complete the classroom training offered by a local government agency such as the emergency management agency, fire or police department. Contact your local emergency manager to learn about the local education and training opportunities available to you. Let this person know about your interest in taking CERT training.

http://www.fema.gov/community-emergency-response-teams/training-materials

So Luis....I agree that you should not be signing off on CERT training for those who only did the online course.

I would check with NHQ to be sure.

As a CERT instructor I would state that to the best of my knowledge/
online CERT courses are not available, Yes the class material is there but you get no "credit for learning it outside of a class"
I had to attend an in person train the trainer class.
And I did do a training module online but to become an instructor-- I still had to attend in person.
At that time I was an active CAP member, a GTL, GBD, and MSO so I was pretty up on the CAP side of things

[rustyjeeper]

CERT is not the answer to DR for CAP - we far exceed that training and proficiency.

I agree CAP does exceed that training and I say so as a CERT instructor and former CAP member.

CERT is basically "pick up stuff and move it", " report fires" and don't be a liability yourself.
DISAGREE

CAP can do that with GTMs, a lot better as-is, and expecting a GTM to sit through another week's
worth of classes that basically rehash the GTM and other ES training isn't reasonable.  If the
differentials can be wrapped into GTM as a few more tasks, then whatever.
Here you need to realize CERT is a known sellable thing to Emergency Management-- it is a basic level of competency all know..... If CAP adopted this and then sold itself BEYOND it would only improve CAP's recognition and ES program

If people want to be on a CERT, they should just join their local CERT.

We'd be better off spending the time working on the top-down relationships at the 3/4 letter agency
level as well as getting local CC's to conact local EMAs then reinventing the wheel.
why not use CERT to sell CAP? ?FEMA has marketed the product to everyone..... if CAP taught CERT think of the recruiting opportunities.

With that said, yes, the curriculum needs to be redone - we've been hearing about this for several
years.  The ES curriculum is the new 39-1.

[Eclipse]

CAP isn't in the business of training non-members, by design and per the National General Counsel
BTDT official request, answer is "no" due to liability reasons.

CAP exceeds CERT, so we should sell that.  If that means translating CAP training to CERT, great,
but beyond that, if we exceed the capability, we don't need CERT.

[rustyjeeper]

CAP isn't in the business of training non-members, by design and per the National General Counsel
BTDT official request, answer is "no" due to liability reasons.

CAP exceeds CERT, so we should sell that.  If that means translating CAP training to CERT, great,
but beyond that, if we exceed the capability, we don't need CERT.

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CAP isn't in the business of training non menbers by design---- DISAGREED. Is AE not a congressionally chartered mission of CAP? Do we not educate the general public to an extent at times???   We CAP also  has an ES mission- one which needs some help.  IMO education and training is a good way to expose yourself to a great many people and promote both CAP and CERT. Possibly, as you say-  the legal beagles already shut that down as per usual for "liability" reasons.
YES cap does exceed CERT.  Unfortunately CAP does such a p*ss poor job of selling itself it is unknown and virtually unsellable. CERT opens the doors that otherwise are closed.

I don't really care where CAP goes now-I am done.  It cant sink much lower than it has and if people refuse to change how they think it will soon become a defunct organization if people don't change how they think.

[Eclipse]

CAP isn't in the business of training non-members, by design and per the National General Counsel
BTDT official request, answer is "no" due to liability reasons.

CAP exceeds CERT, so we should sell that.  If that means translating CAP training to CERT, great,
but beyond that, if we exceed the capability, we don't need CERT.

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CAP isn't in the business of training non members by design---- DISAGREED.

Well that's very nice, we all have opinions, however in this case I would imagine the National DO and the National JA's decisions
and interpretations will hold more weight.

How AE is relevent to this, I don't know, but regardless, we don't provide "training" in AE to non-members, either so there you are.

[rustyjeeper]

CAP isn't in the business of training non-members, by design and per the National General Counsel
BTDT official request, answer is "no" due to liability reasons.

CAP exceeds CERT, so we should sell that.  If that means translating CAP training to CERT, great,
but beyond that, if we exceed the capability, we don't need CERT.

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CAP isn't in the business of training non members by design---- DISAGREED.

Well that's very nice, we all have opinions, however in this case I would imagine the National DO and the National JA's decisions
and interpretations will hold more weight.

How AE is relevent to this, I don't know, but regardless, we don't provide "training" in AE to non-members, either so there you are.

Training and Education are one and the same thing, just different words. And as far as the DO and JA's decisions go-- well they are what they are and so long as they are the one's making the decisions things are what they are. CAP is just not relevant anymore and is fast going the way of the dinosaur. As drones take over there will be less use for the aerial photo people and where does that leave things??
Maybe the organization should take a long hard look at itself and its sustainability and reliability before it's too late and start to think outside the box a bit..... 
note: I said maybe.

[Luis R. Ramos]

What is your profession that you can say that "training and education are the same thing?" Are you an educator?

They are not.

Training is preparing one person for a job. The skills needed to perform a job. Use a calculator. Serve a meal.

Education is preparing one person with the ability to reason, to read, to acquire those skills on his own.

[Eclipse]

Training and Education are one and the same thing, just different words.

No, they are not.

AE is a good example.

CAP's stated mission is to advocate for, and educate the general public about, general aviation.
Being "educated" about aviation does not make you a pilot.

"Training" is the learning, and then demonstration to a standard, of specific task(s) towards a specific goal.
"Education" is general understanding of a given area or topic.

You can be "educated about ES", but you can't be "trained in ES", because the latter statement
is functionally meaningless given the broad nature of the topic.

CAP is just not relevant anymore and is fast going the way of the dinosaur. As drones take over there will be less use for the aerial photo people and where does that leave things??
Maybe the organization should take a long hard look at itself and its sustainability and reliability before it's too late and start to think outside the box a bit..... 

This is sadly and increasingly true, unfortunately to think outside a box, you have to recognize there >is< a box.

(Luis beat me to it above while I was typing...)