emergency service missions

[ol'fido]

The prereq's for GOBD include GTL, which you need at least GTM3 to getm

We would have a lot more qualified IC's if that were changed.  Just saying, the only reason anyone around these parts qualifies as GTL or GTM3 is a path to GOBD, so they can then go on to IC. 

We have lot's of UDF missions around here, but in Florida, any sort of situation where one would need a 72 hour pack is hard to fathom. 

I would propose that GOBD require a GTL OR UDF. 

Why would I want to waste 4 SAREX's (2 sorties each for GTM3 and GTL) doing something useless that I'll never do again just to jump through the hoop on the route to IC?  No thanks, I'd rather fly anyways.  I  think we only have about 10 IC1's in the wing, and maybe 40 or so IC's period.  This process is hindering others from completing the process.

You don't need GTL for PSC/OSC. Just AOBD+GTM3 or GBD+MS.

I didn't say you needed it for PSC.OSC...  I said for GOBD, which you do need GTM3/GTL for.

How can someone direct several teams if they don't know how to lead a single one?

That's my point.  There is no need for someone to direct several ground teams.  Because ground teams are never used.  Period.  Take note that as I said in my previous post, that I am in fact talking about my area.  I do realize that they are used in some places.  We utilize UDF teams here.  So by making UDF the prereq rather than ground team, you'd still have a GOBD that is familiar with the teams.  As it stands now, we have GOBD's that are not qualified in UDF directing several UDF teams.

If a ground team is not DF trained, you're doing it wrong. Many moons ago, we did not have UDF teams. We had ground teams and that was it. If you needed to find an ELT you called out the Ground Team. If you suspected that it was probably a non-distress ELT, you might call a couple of senior member GTLs to go do the DF search. So at some point after the SARSATs went up and CAP started doing a LOT of ELT searches someone decided to codify this process and call these 2-3 man teams UDFs. UDF should be something you do on the way to becoming a GTM or GTL. It shouldn't be an end unto itself. To say that someone who is or has been GTM, GTL, and GBD qualified can't know how to manage an UDF team or teams is not realistic.

[Eclipse]

UDF teams are intended for a singular purpose - searching for aircraft at airports.

Period.

No missing persons, no SAR on grass, no DR.

If they arrive at the airport and the DF points at the woods behind them, they are done.

Stating that a wing doesn't use ground teams is ridiculous.  I'm not saying it's not true, but it's rediculous, and
I have no idea how a wing doing that could get through an eval.

[RiverAux]

[UDF should be something you do on the way to becoming a GTM or GTL. It shouldn't be an end unto itself.

Why not?  Although the need has obviously dropped significantly, UDF teams do fill a specific niche for what still remains one of our more common mission types.  There are quite a few senior members who are not physically capable of real hard core ground team missions that are just fine for UDF teams.  Also, plenty of units in urban areas which are just not going to ever get into real ground team work (either practice or real) but which do have ELT missions. 

Sure, they're not as capable as a ground team, but they do address a need. 

[RADIOMAN015]

UDF teams are intended for a singular purpose - searching for aircraft at airports.

Period.

No missing persons, no SAR on grass, no DR.

If they arrive at the airport and the DF points at the woods behind them, they are done.

Really , so if a UDF team arrives at an airport, it's about 1 1/2 hours to dusk (or even middle of the day), and cloud cover prevents the aircraft from seeing the ground.  The signal is not on the airport proper but in the woods nearby, we are going to wait for a ground team that may be  2 to 2 1/2 hours out    

I think that most IC's would allow the UDF to go into the woods based upon the above and perhaps even if it wasn't close to dusk -- perhaps the key is the "timely" response on scene of a ground team.   The purpose of our response is to potentially save a life by locating that emergency signal  -- the longer you wait the likely it will be a recovery versus a rescue      In my state/wing it's pretty much built up and generally there's roads relatively close to just about any of the woodlands.   Hey if you have a GPS (even if it's just a vehicle GPS) you can find your way back anyways.
RM

     

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If a UDF team is called out you should have a Ground Team at minimum on standby and they shouldn't be 2-21/2 hours out. You should never call out one team and call it sufficient. Even calling one ground team out isn't sufficient, you need to have multiple teams ready to move for any type of call. If you have an aircraft called out but don't have a request for a ground team you should still have ground teams ready and waiting, and you should be stressing the fact that you have ground teams ready and able and that they are a great asset.

[RADIOMAN015]

If a UDF team is called out you should have a Ground Team at minimum on standby and they shouldn't be 2-21/2 hours out. You should never call out one team and call it sufficient. Even calling one ground team out isn't sufficient, you need to have multiple teams ready to move for any type of call. If you have an aircraft called out but don't have a request for a ground team you should still have ground teams ready and waiting, and you should be stressing the fact that you have ground teams ready and able and that they are a great asset.

Most ground teams are cadet manned, depending upon the call out time they may not be available in a timely manner.   We've already established that in most wilderness type responses, the local/county/state/federal public safety agencies are responding on the ground, NOT CAP ground teams, although it is possible that a UDF might have to go with a public safety ground team.

Also in my state, the state police has a helicopter fleet with spot lights & FLIR capabilities, (weather permitting) I would think for a night time response around an airport, we would utilize that capability in conjunction with our UDF teams.    The fantasy of CAP GT's doing the rescuing, is just that, we should have qualified medical & fire/rescue folks with us or in very close proximity to respond IF we find a crashed aircraft.  I wouldn't want to be the IC (or the PIO) answering questions as to why the call to public safety wasn't made, especially in a near the airport type ELT.   
RM     

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Oh so I guess I was just dreaming in 2001 (I have been gone and out of CAP between 2003 and 2010) when our geound team was called out for a missing person and found them. And then I was dreaming three other times as well. Hmmm that explains a lot.

[RADIOMAN015]

Oh so I guess I was just dreaming in 2001 (I have been gone and out of CAP between 2003 and 2010) when our geound team was called out for a missing person and found them. And then I was dreaming three other times as well. Hmmm that explains a lot.

The frame of my response is based upon a potential aircraft crash incident.  We likely lack the appropriate equipment to perform a rescue. 

Hey If your state/counyt/local government allows you to go out on a missing person search and find someone that's great and I salute you for your servicer :clap: , BUT you do need the appropriate profession emergency medical backup close by even for these type of incidents.  Also I think that's an exception in CAP and most wings aren't providing ground teams for missing person searches.

Would you think from a strategic planning standpoint that CAP itself would keep very good track of what ES responses, air, ground, etc were being conducted and find out how the units got involved .  WMIRS will show a state reimbursement but doesn't necessarily provide the details
.   When we do good on the ground side we need to ensure that there's wide spread news releases of this.   (I think MD wing awhile back got some good media coverage).
RM     

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Of course, no doubt, but they don't have to be out with the team, just staged nearby. When we found one person we carried him out on a litter and then we got him to the medics at the ambulance. Until then though we took care to treat for hypothermia and shock... Granted we did what we could for shock like keeping him warm... And keeping him trendellenberg. But we still did what we could and that was finding him and taking care of him until we got him to medical care.

All that I'm saying is that there is a lot that GTs can do, with the right training and visibility and participation (all of which depends solely on the members) a ground team is for a lot more than retention. If you loose cadets because they don't get called out then it was explained wrong.

[Spaceman3750]

If a UDF team is called out you should have a Ground Team at minimum on standby and they shouldn't be 2-21/2 hours out. You should never call out one team and call it sufficient. Even calling one ground team out isn't sufficient, you need to have multiple teams ready to move for any type of call. If you have an aircraft called out but don't have a request for a ground team you should still have ground teams ready and waiting, and you should be stressing the fact that you have ground teams ready and able and that they are a great asset.

Most ground teams are cadet manned, depending upon the call out time they may not be available in a timely manner.   We've already established that in most wilderness type responses, the local/county/state/federal public safety agencies are responding on the ground, NOT CAP ground teams, although it is possible that a UDF might have to go with a public safety ground team.

Also in my state, the state police has a helicopter fleet with spot lights & FLIR capabilities, (weather permitting) I would think for a night time response around an airport, we would utilize that capability in conjunction with our UDF teams.    The fantasy of CAP GT's doing the rescuing, is just that, we should have qualified medical & fire/rescue folks with us or in very close proximity to respond IF we find a crashed aircraft.  I wouldn't want to be the IC (or the PIO) answering questions as to why the call to public safety wasn't made, especially in a near the airport type ELT.   
RM   

Almost all of the GTs I work with are either mostly or entirely senior.

[RiverAux]

Oh so I guess I was just dreaming in 2001 (I have been gone and out of CAP between 2003 and 2010) when our geound team was called out for a missing person and found them. And then I was dreaming three other times as well. Hmmm that explains a lot.

The frame of my response is based upon a potential aircraft crash incident.  We likely lack the appropriate equipment to perform a rescue. 

Correction -- we lack the equipment to perform SOME rescues.  Seems to me that most missing aircraft missions are resolved either by finding the plane with everyone deceased or finding them with minor injuries or less.  The in-between situations where they either have to be extricated from the plane or have to be medevaced out on a stretcher are by far the exception.  In other words CAP ground teams are fully capable for handling most situations involving missing airplanes.  And if they get to the scene and it is beyond their capabilities, no big deal, call in someone else to help.  Ideally, you will have been proactive and if there is time arrange for some local medical/fire folks to go with you to the scene, but that is not always practical and I'm certainly not going to wait around for long for them to show up. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If CAP finds the aircraft and it is beyond their capability then their job is almost done. They then have to cordon off the area and watch it until they are relieved while letting in those who are able to help those that we aren't able to help. But there is something that CAP can do to help in every situation, and every phase of the operation.

[arajca]

One more point - jurisdictional boundaries. Most local agencies have boundaries for their response. Some are VERY protective of their boundaries and some will not cross into another agency's jurisdiction without a direct order from the president. I've dealt with both types while on a haz-mat team.

CAP generally does not have boundaries within a state, so our ground teams can search multiple jurisdictions to local the target then report the location to the IC who calls in the appropriate local agency.

[SAR-EMT1]

UDF teams are intended for a singular purpose - searching for aircraft at airports.

Period.

No missing persons, no SAR on grass, no DR.

If they arrive at the airport and the DF points at the woods behind them, they are done.

Really ?!
Because according to several Wing IC's I have talked to, the consensus was that a UDF team could do whatever needed to be done as long as it didn't require the team to [paraphrasing] ford a river or RON.

Case in point was the mission for the Air Evac bird that went missing in Southern IL 2010. One aircrew and one UDF team sent. Both IIRC from the Metropolis/ Marion area.

[Eclipse]

Leaders do things that are bad ideas all the time, that doesn't validate the idea.

Look at the SQTR - the lane defined is specific and narrow.

[Spaceman3750]

UDF teams are intended for a singular purpose - searching for aircraft at airports.

Period.

No missing persons, no SAR on grass, no DR.

If they arrive at the airport and the DF points at the woods behind them, they are done.

Really ?!
Because according to several Wing IC's I have talked to, the consensus was that a UDF team could do whatever needed to be done as long as it didn't require the team to [paraphrasing] ford a river or RON.

Case in point was the mission for the Air Evac bird that went missing in Southern IL 2010. One aircrew and one UDF team sent. Both IIRC from the Metropolis/ Marion area.

Since UDF teams are not trained or equipped to:

Conduct a line search
Recognize search clues
Use first aid
Recognize and mitigate hazards associated with wilderness
Navigate wilderness
Etc.

How can you effectively use them as a ground team?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

All that I'm saying is that there is a lot that GTs can do, with the right training and visibility and participation (all of which depends solely on the members) a ground team is for a lot more than retention. If you loose cadets because they don't get called out then it was explained wrong.

How long do we expect any member (senior or cadet) to go thru the time, effort and $$ of qualifying and staying current as a GTM if they will never actually be used?

[Eclipse]

All that I'm saying is that there is a lot that GTs can do, with the right training and visibility and participation (all of which depends solely on the members) a ground team is for a lot more than retention. If you loose cadets because they don't get called out then it was explained wrong.

How long do we expect any member (senior or cadet) to go thru the time, effort and $$ of qualifying and staying current as a GTM if they will never actually be used?

The same amount of time we expect our aircrews and base staff - until they are needed.

If they aren't being used, a lot of people, from Unit CC to Wing CC and everyone in between are not doing their jobs.

[Eclipse]

And while we're engaging the discussion, what "effort and $$$"?

$50 worth of gear - most of which members already own, and 1 one sortie every three years is hardly an onerous requirement.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

All that I'm saying is that there is a lot that GTs can do, with the right training and visibility and participation (all of which depends solely on the members) a ground team is for a lot more than retention. If you loose cadets because they don't get called out then it was explained wrong.

How long do we expect any member (senior or cadet) to go thru the time, effort and $$ of qualifying and staying current as a GTM if they will never actually be used?

That is something that should be taken care of by the group/wing/unit CCs and ESOs. Get your units. Isible and they the word out. That is my opinion, if I am wrong, tell me how it should be done. But if you don't get the word out then there will be no call out and you are failing the ones who are there mainly for ES and those who spend the money to help ES.


I know I have spent quite a bit more than $50... I am sure I have spent more than $200. And I love my gear, it is set up perfect for me.