Drones doing domestic duty

[DakRadz]

Guess what?

The Surrogate Predator program was implemented to avoid using real drones for training, am I correct?

And until CAP stepped up, they were about to pay contractors to do the program.

How do I know? My dad was the one about to close the deal. Apparently, that contract "could have paid your tuition through college! And CAP did it?!?!?"
(By the way, the USAF contact who dealt with the contractors said it was done "in house")

Basically, CAP saves a lot of money via not using drones, helping train drone pilots without using drones, and not spending huge amounts to pay contractors. Why would we suddenly die out during a phase of "ooo, shiny Predator!"

Question- for those who were around back in the 70s: Did the cadet program take a hit when JROTCs became mandated for each service?
Just an example I could think of. SSDD- New program is the best or being pushed really hard by higher-ups, CAP is on the block.

And if CAP Talk existed back then, there would have been a thread about the danger CP were in.

[Flying Pig]

Guess what?

The Surrogate Predator program was implemented to avoid using real drones for training, am I correct?

And until CAP stepped up, they were about to pay contractors to do the program.

How do I know? My dad was the one about to close the deal. Apparently, that contract "could have paid your tuition through college! And CAP did it?!?!?"
(By the way, the USAF contact who dealt with the contractors said it was done "in house")

Basically, CAP saves a lot of money via not using drones, helping train drone pilots without using drones, and not spending huge amounts to pay contractors. Why would we suddenly die out during a phase of "ooo, shiny Predator!"

Question- for those who were around back in the 70s: Did the cadet program take a hit when JROTCs became mandated for each service?
Just an example I could think of. SSDD- New program is the best or being pushed really hard by higher-ups, CAP is on the block.

And if CAP Talk existed back then, there would have been a thread about the danger CP were in.

Not even apples and oranges.  More like, Vocanic lava and a snow flake type comparison.   Yes, CAP stepped up.  Personally I still dont know why the AF didnt buy their own C206's and just let military pilots fly them. What we are talking about is that as time and technology progress, which it is at lightening speed, UAVs are going to start doing a lot of what CAP does. The Guard is already very willing to come and do all of the hundreds of hours of LE surveillance as well.  Once the FAA sorts out the airspace issues and the bandwidth issues (which will be dealt with by technology) it will open the flood gates.  Just like when only rich people had cell phones.  The CHP has an MX15 on several of their C206's.  They go up to about 10,000ft, loiter around and with the camera and mapping systems can  handle calls in multiple cities with only minor adjustments (if any) to their gigantic orbit.  Thats exactly what the UAVs will do.  I have seen them call out running suspect from 6-7 miles away and tell you the streets and the address of the apartment the guy just ran into.  They are doing exactly what a UAV will do. The capabilities of this technology are astounding and sometimes inconceivable until youve seen it at work.

[lordmonar]

Money.

The USAF does not have to pay us to fly the SP aircraft.

The DoD WAS paying a contractor to fly the SP for Green Flag East.........at a tune of somewhere around $2M/year.....and they were only getting about 20 hours of "Vol Time" out of them!

For the USAF to buy and fly their own SP they would have to dedicate USAF pilots, dedicate a standard support structure, and maintenance stucture.

The going rate for an average USAF member these days is calculated at around $100K/year when you factor pay/housing/medical/benifits/etc.    So standing up a SP squadorn...would take around 8-10 pilots, 6-8 sensor operators, 3-4 mission base personnel, 1 logistics (supply) guy, 2-4 maintainers, a first Sergeant, 2 ARMS people, 1 Plans guy, 1 commander.

Times this by two as we have two seperate operations (east and west).

Add to this the fact that USAF is trying to reduce manning to meet congressional mandated force levels at the same time they are expanding the number of RPA CAPs, expanding the RPA capabilites and bringing two new weapons systems on line (F-22/F-35).

And for the record....the SP program is not to train RPA pilots or crews.....it is to help train the ground pounders who have to work with the RPA's.

CAP's nitch core function is the aerial SAR function.  We have 500 planes ready to go and look for downed aircraft and missing people.  When more PRA's are stationed stateside at USAF bases, and state/local law enforment agencies get their own RPA's, and the FAA opens up the airspace.....then CAP will become less necessairy. 

When the Mark One eyeball flying at 1000' for max 4 hours on station is all that we can offer....even at bargain prices.....then eventually our potential customers will go for the more expensive but more capable option.

This is still a long ways off....but when it does.....I will be happy to step down and go my merry way.

As a side note to all this........even if RPA's become the platform of choice for Air SAR........there is no real reason why CAP could not be the operators behind those controls.   

[N Harmon]

I remember joining and hearing members talk about how CAP would not exist in a couple of years. It made me think twice about whether I really wanted to join. That was in 1995. Since then every new change in requirements has come with people saying such-and-such is going to put us out of business forever. Recently it was the 406MHz ELTs. Now apparently it is UAVs.

[coudano]

I have seen them call out running suspect from 6-7 miles away and tell you the streets and the address of the apartment the guy just ran into.

Of course that never has been, and never will be anywhere near CAP's function.
Granted those functions can be turned just as well to do what we do instead,

Although i'd point out that ELT hunting, and finding targets on the ground isn't exactly a 'hard science'
it does require a good bit of intuition that really might not be technically feasible just now.
still the point stands, if/when there is already a (LE) platform on station,
CAP will probably never get the call since there is already a responder closer and faster.

[Flying Pig]

Money.

The USAF does not have to pay us to fly the SP aircraft.

The DoD WAS paying a contractor to fly the SP for Green Flag East.........at a tune of somewhere around $2M/year.....and they were only getting about 20 hours of "Vol Time" out of them!

For the USAF to buy and fly their own SP they would have to dedicate USAF pilots, dedicate a standard support structure, and maintenance stucture.

The going rate for an average USAF member these days is calculated at around $100K/year when you factor pay/housing/medical/benifits/etc.    So standing up a SP squadorn...would take around 8-10 pilots, 6-8 sensor operators, 3-4 mission base personnel, 1 logistics (supply) guy, 2-4 maintainers, a first Sergeant, 2 ARMS people, 1 Plans guy, 1 commander.

Times this by two as we have two seperate operations (east and west).

Add to this the fact that USAF is trying to reduce manning to meet congressional mandated force levels at the same time they are expanding the number of RPA CAPs, expanding the RPA capabilites and bringing two new weapons systems on line (F-22/F-35).

And for the record....the SP program is not to train RPA pilots or crews.....it is to help train the ground pounders who have to work with the RPA's.

CAP's nitch core function is the aerial SAR function.  We have 500 planes ready to go and look for downed aircraft and missing people.  When more PRA's are stationed stateside at USAF bases, and state/local law enforment agencies get their own RPA's, and the FAA opens up the airspace.....then CAP will become less necessairy. 

When the Mark One eyeball flying at 1000' for max 4 hours on station is all that we can offer....even at bargain prices.....then eventually our potential customers will go for the more expensive but more capable option.

This is still a long ways off....but when it does.....I will be happy to step down and go my merry way.

As a side note to all this........even if RPA's become the platform of choice for Air SAR........there is no real reason why CAP could not be the operators behind those controls.   

OK  Thanks for the clarification on how it would need to be supported.  So Basically, with CAP, we show up, play, and go away. The AF guys can make it to the O-Club by 6 without a care in the world regarding that little red white and blue "drone" they got to play with all day basically for the price of gas and a couple hotel rooms.  Makes sense.

[coudano]

OK  Thanks for the clarification on how it would need to be supported.  So Basically, with CAP, we show up, play, and go away. The AF guys can make it to the O-Club by 6 without a care in the world regarding that little red white and blue "drone" they got to play with all day basically for the price of gas and a couple hotel rooms.  Makes sense.

Although we're training sensor operators, they're probably heading to the E-club... heh

[Flying Pig]

I have seen them call out running suspect from 6-7 miles away and tell you the streets and the address of the apartment the guy just ran into.

Of course that never has been, and never will be anywhere near CAP's function.
Granted those functions can be turned just as well to do what we do instead,

Although i'd point out that ELT hunting, and finding targets on the ground isn't exactly a 'hard science'
it does require a good bit of intuition that really might not be technically feasible just now.
still the point stands, if/when there is already a (LE) platform on station,
CAP will probably never get the call since there is already a responder closer and faster.

No, but it demonstrates the abilities of the equipment in a search mode.  We would do the same thing on a SAR.  Just orbit over head and search.  No need to fly down in that canyon or across that ridge line.  Just sit up high and slow and search your grid squares in color, thermal and NVG if you want.  Set up the mapping system to breadcrumb your search patters so you know where youve been.  Down link your video and your mapping pages real time to the IC.  You can search 24/7.  In actuallity, it would be easier to search at night in many cases with thermal.  Ive done it.  Thats the point I am trying to convey.  With a UAV, your getting the same service, but with out live bodies in the air, and you now have the ability to stay on station for 18-20hrs and just search.

[arajca]

While everyone keeps downplaying the cost issue, it IS a consideration. I recently took a class with one of the DSCA staff members. They had a request for support that the staff recommend CAP for, but the general decided to use AFRES resources for instead. CAP's cost would have been ~$2000. AFRES was over $30,000. At the time, the staff was trying to find the money to pay for the AFRES since their budget wouldn't cover it, and the most appropriate resource wasn't used.

[Thom]

To someone else's point earlier, in these challenging economic times, even those Federal beans are being counted.

During the recent Mississippi River Flooding Mission we (Louisiana Wing) were tasked as the primary airborne asset within LA for FEMA, ARNG, GOHSEP (LA EMA), etc. The primary reason we got the job, besides being ready to go on a couple hours notice when it started, was that the entire cost for our 42 day mission was less than halfway to six figures. (I'll refrain from the exact dollar amount out of a sense of OpSec and propriety...)

That same money might have bought a couple of days of one Blackhawk crew's time, or a few hours of big drone time, or MAYBE four or five days of small drone time. Instead, FEMA and the rest of the Feds got an average of 3 aircraft a day for over a month. That's a pretty good value proposition in anybody's book. (And they had Stafford Act money: It was a declared Emergency, so the Fed pocketbook was open...)

Just trying to make the point that, when you call in the ANG or CBP, somebody, in some Federal budget, does eventually pay for that stuff.



Thom

[RiverAux]

RPAs (Remote Piloted Aircraft) are still a ways off.

First....the military is very busy using all their RPAs for real world missions....there are not a lot available in the states for anything else.

Second....the FAA still has a lot of heart burn about RPAs.....while there is some positive motion on this front....it is still a ways (1-2 years) in the future before they will get the green light to fly in VFR airspace.

Third....there is still a lot of technilogical hurtles that still need to be jumped.....again there is a lot of forward motion on this front....but right now satellite bandwidth is very expensive.

RPA's will one day make CAP obsolete........but that day is still a decade or more away.

The article referenced at the beginning of this thread shows how all three of these issues are being addressed much quicker than even I originally expected. 

[lordmonar]

Living and working the RPA world..........I don't see any major changes in the next few years.

[Spaceman3750]

Our secondary problem is that we are difficult to employ, and we come with a lot of strings attached.

One email to NOC and you've got us.  No big deal.  I'd say we're probably the easiest "federal" resource that you can ask for.

Yeah, of course CAP isn't always federal, right...

and I wonder in how many cases have you seen CAP employed with a quick and easy call or mail to NOC?
i've seen it go...   not so smoothly.

ultimately, somebody has to pay, and if we aren't going in 'federal' status, that can create some serious sticking points.



also, to say that you can "just call up the guard and have a bunch of free assets" is pretty misleading,
at a level which you may not see, those beans are being counted, and unless your state is just pouring money out of the ears, or struggling to fill up the programmed budgeted hours and days, those resources are probably limited.  the LE guys may never get a bill, but I guarantee you that someone somewhere is sweating the hours and days.  That money always has to come from somewhere...  And the military option is NOT the cheap option on the table (quite the contrary, the military is big, fat, slow, and expensive).  I've seen people have the hammer dropped on them for (for example) spending training funds on actual operations.  And I've seen operations killed (at the TAG/Governor level) for exceeding costs, and not producing 'worthwhile' effects.  Just depends on the political and economic climate in your state (which tends to change every 3 or 4 years meh)

My town had several tornadoes rip through one night in 2006. A firsthand account by a Red Cross staffer and CAP member says that it was 30 minutes from the ARC call to our NOC to boots on the ground. I would call that pretty atypical but not unrealistic.

[lordmonar]

For SAR/DR work.....AFRCC and the NOC have the authority on site to authorise the mission.  CD/HLS requires more hoops to jump through.  The Reno Air Races mission was done on the NOC's authority as a C911 mission called from a cell phone on the tarmac.

So.....dispite what some may think....getting a mission number and getting the assets rolling is not really that hard of a process.

[jpizzo127]

I remember joining and hearing members talk about how CAP would not exist in a couple of years. It made me think twice about whether I really wanted to join. That was in 1995. Since then every new change in requirements has come with people saying such-and-such is going to put us out of business forever. Recently it was the 406MHz ELTs. Now apparently it is UAVs.

I don't know about you but the 406 mhz took away 90% of our missions. We used to do at least 1 ELT gig a month. Now, we're lucky if we get 2 a year.

[lordmonar]

That is a good thing isn't it?

[Mustang]

Our secondary problem is that we are difficult to employ, and we come with a lot of strings attached.

One email to NOC and you've got us.  No big deal.  I'd say we're probably the easiest "federal" resource that you can ask for.

Unless you want us during normal work hours...for months on end....


Katrina and the Fossett search exhausted a number of wings of aircrews, and highlighted that we are not prepared for large-scale, long-term taskings. I've also had a rather difficult time finding crews during the work week for the Army support project I've been working on the past 2 yrs.  CAP is a fair-weather, part-time, mostly weekends force, which renders us useless for most serious LE work.

[Flying Pig]

Army project? You mean the Predator Program or something else?

[SarDragon]

I remember joining and hearing members talk about how CAP would not exist in a couple of years. It made me think twice about whether I really wanted to join. That was in 1995. Since then every new change in requirements has come with people saying such-and-such is going to put us out of business forever. Recently it was the 406MHz ELTs. Now apparently it is UAVs.

I don't know about you but the 406 mhz took away 90% of our missions. We used to do at least 1 ELT gig a month. Now, we're lucky if we get 2 a year.

One a month? CAWG was averaging one a day. Now we're down to maybe 5 or 6 a month.

[lordmonar]

Our secondary problem is that we are difficult to employ, and we come with a lot of strings attached.

One email to NOC and you've got us.  No big deal.  I'd say we're probably the easiest "federal" resource that you can ask for.

Unless you want us during normal work hours...for months on end....


Katrina and the Fossett search exhausted a number of wings of aircrews, and highlighted that we are not prepared for large-scale, long-term taskings. I've also had a rather difficult time finding crews during the work week for the Army support project I've been working on the past 2 yrs.  CAP is a fair-weather, part-time, mostly weekends force, which renders us useless for most serious LE work.

That is true.....but CAP has never really said that THAT was our niche competancy.  Bottom line we are volunteers....and unless some one is going to pay me aroudn $40/hour I am going to have to go home an make my mortgage payment.

In truth we should never been involved in Katrina after the first few days.  Fosset was mostly a communications error.....no one bothered to call people out and find out if they were available....no one was trying to schedule anyone.

I was all ready to go.....then they said....don't come unless we call....then two weeks later they said we need people tommorrow for 5 days......I can't get 5 day off in a row on less then 24 hour notice....sorry doesn't work like that.

But let's also be honest....Shuttle Searches, Fosset and Katrina only come around every few years.