Drones doing domestic duty

[RiverAux]

I've said for a while that drones will be replacing CAP for aerial recon following natural disasters and that trend is really starting to pick up. 

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/12/nation/la-na-domestic-drones-20110912

The only way I see CAP remaining relevant to this particular mission is if we outfit at least one aircraft in each wing with the full motion video system similar to the surrogate predator program.  We have to be able to "compete" with the drones and right now they are superior to CAP in every way for this mission except for the fact that we have many more planes than anyone has drones and can cover more area (though even that may be arguable given that it would take several CAP sorties to be able to cover the same ground as a single drone sortie). 

Well, drones are so much more expensive than CAP you might say.  True, but keep in mind that most disasters that are big enough to get CAP involved are probably going to be Presidentially declared and in those situations the state (who would generally be asking for CAP) is planning on being reimbursed for expenses by the feds.  Therefore, they don't really care about the cost. 

Folks, unless we radically change, I predict that the minute your National Guard has these sorts of drones CAP will stop getting calls for aerial recon after disasters. 

[Eclipse]

I agree the trend is not encouraging, but we do a lot of recon that never goes presidential, the local stuff would not be
covered by a drone.

We need to form those local partnerships.

[Flying Pig]

Expense has nothing to do with them being used.  I doubt its much more expensive to send a drone somewhere than a C206. Heck, the Air Guard uses C-26's all over the US to support local LE on dime bag weed cases.  And the military is only adding more all the time and increasing their effectiveness.
As soon as the FAA sorts out the drone issue, its over.  I hate to break it to you.  We did a tour at March ARB a while back and those guys are chomping at the bit to fly all over the US doing narc surveillance all over the US, especially the western US, for any agency who wants it.  Hence, doing what I do for a living and at no cost to the agency.  (Hmmmm, funny, thats the argument CAP uses and now it being used against us.)  The guard has been doing surveillance for LE for years.  Any LE agency can call up the Air Guard and request the use of their C-26 and it will come free of charge and stay all day. 

They already have a plan laid out.  There were a ton of LE agencies there just ooooooo'ing and ahhhhhh'ing.  Now the one saving grace is that many of my missions are when the detective calls and says we need to launch NOW!  It would take some time for a UAV to launch, motor its way to its target, etc etc.  The deal would be long since over by the time it got on station. 
But I assure you, CAP will never be able to keep up.  We get out money from the Air Force.  Our budget would have to increase an unbelievable amount to even try to keep up.  You may see an occasional FLIR 8000 on a 182, but I doubt youll see many more planes flying around with the MX15 set up.  As far as local partnerships, again, when the word is out that you can call up the Guard and get a drone over head, CAP is going to fall by the wayside.  Heck......so am I!

Just knowing cops like I do, if they have the chance to use a UAV over a plane load of volunteers, theyll chose the UAV.

[lordmonar]

And?

Listen.....I would love for CAP ES to become redundant redundant.

If they ever get RPA's to pick up the inland SAR mission and do what ever the LE and DR guys need....then great.
More time for me to focus on the CP mission.

If CAP completely folds.....then I'll go volunteer with the local SAR group, or the volunteer fire department, or the boy scouts.

CAP formed back in '41 because it was needed.....if it is no longer needed then it goes away.

Until then....I will be working hard at CAP's mission.

[blackrain]

The face of aviation is changing.

As I've said before the only big limitation I see will be bandwidth. The relatively small number of UAVs can be handled now but what happens when the numbers swell to several hundred and higher. Any experts want to weigh in?

Loss of the signal link (equipment failure, weather etc.) in general could be a problem even for a "smart" UAV. Again the numbers flying now are too small to draw general conclusions.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view manned crews will never compete with the loiter time provided by a UAV. 24 hours of persistent stare by a UAV is just plain beyond practical human endurance. 

As Flying Pig pointed out, at least for now, rapid response time is the saving grace for manned crews and sometimes there's just no substitute for the Mark One Eyeball when avoiding changing weather and dealing with turbulence.

From CAPs perspective we'll have to get at least some FLIR capability or similar to just keep up with what's coming.

My 2 cents

[RiverAux]

To some extent I agree with lordmonar -- if there is an asset that can do the job better and cheaper than we can, then that should be what is used.

But, right now, its all about empire building and budget justifications.  We're spending untold millions or billions on drone technology that has to be justified by using it wherever possible.  The military and the ever increasing local, state, and federal law enforcement juggernaut have to justify hiring more people and spending more money by finding whatever missions they can even if they might not be the best asset for it.  The DHS "Air Wings" will begin to replace CAP for all domestic aerial ES work within the near future as well, not because they're better, just because they're there. 

So, even though CAP may be able to do some missions better and every mission cheaper than with drones , I foresee us being pushed aside by these other agencies.  That sticks in my craw, but it is going to happen since as Eclipse and I agree -- no one really cares about the cost of the drones.  They're just the neatest new thing in the tool box and as long as the feds don't care, they're going to begin to be requested first. 

I agree the trend is not encouraging, but we do a lot of recon that never goes presidential, the local stuff would not be
covered by a drone.

This probably varies a bit by state.  Any significant missions are going to go federal.  But, CAP is not going to be able to get by on being called out by a county or two every year for single-sortie missions.

[Spaceman3750]

How much can't be seen from the sky whether you're in a C172 or a Predator? Lots, depending on where you're at.

Either we or someone else are still going to have to put boots on the ground.

[RiverAux]

How much can't be seen from the sky whether you're in a C172 or a Predator? Lots, depending on where you're at.

Either we or someone else are still going to have to put boots on the ground.

Well, this thread is pointed at aerial work. 

But, if you're suggesting that CAP is going to stop being the non-entity that it is now in ground-based disaster relief, we've got some threads on that. 

[coudano]

Yah we are probably still cheaper...



However CAP's primary problem in any ES use is that our product just isn't that impressive, to our would-be customers.

Our secondary problem is that we are difficult to employ, and we come with a lot of strings attached.

If we were fast, easy, reliable, and had something that emergency managers (or LE) NEEDED, we'd have more work than we could handle.  You want to see more opstempo, figure out how to fix those 4 things.

[RiverAux]

Our secondary problem is that we are difficult to employ, and we come with a lot of strings attached.

One email to NOC and you've got us.  No big deal.  I'd say we're probably the easiest "federal" resource that you can ask for. 

[Flying Pig]

Federal resource?  I dont know that I would call CAP a federal resource by any means.

It may be easy to "call up" CAP, but what do they bring?  A few little airplanes and 5 grossly overweight radio operators and some Observers who havnt used a Technisonic radio in 6 months all who have to to work on Monday morning?  And before you try and shut me down, remember I spent 20 yrs in CAP.

I can make one phone call and have a National Guard C26, a Pave Hawk and a CBP Blackhawk and an AStar here in no time with full time, paid crews who have no issues staying as long as I need them to in a couple of hours.  For anyone who has the need/ability to call up a "federal" resource they can do it to.  CAP has its place, most definitely. CAP CD Ops were crucial during some large ops in CA over the past couple of years.  CAP needs to expand.  Do something with those GA-8s. Get that hyper-super-dupper whatchamacallit out of them and put REAL equipment in them.  Instal the Technisonic TDFM 7300's a FLIR and an Aero Computer mapping system on a couple aircraft within each region would be a start. Looking at about about $450K per plane.  But you got to start somewhere.  You dont need the MX15 that is on the Surrogate Predator plane.  That is WAAAAAAY overkill.  That ball is needed for a reason.  We as CAP do not need that.  A small FLIR 8500FW would be great, coupled with an Aero Computers mapping system, high quality radios!  You can outfit several planes with the guts, wiring, etc, but then set up the equipment so it can be quick released and moved to another plane in the span of about 2 hours as one package.  Geeeeeeesh......I almost sound like Ive done this before.

[SARDOC]

This is where the GIIEP system is supposed to be coming into play.  It has the capability to relay FMV at a fraction of the cost of a predator.  Civil Air Patrols operating cost for a C182 are still significantly lower than that of the predator.   While GIIEP does have some serious limitations it would suit our emergency services mission.   GIIEP is currently being upgraded everyday and it doesn't cost Civil Air Patrol at all.

[peter rabbit]

This is where the GIIEP system is supposed to be coming into play.  It has the capability to relay FMV at a fraction of the cost of a predator.  Civil Air Patrols operating cost for a C182 are still significantly lower than that of the predator.   While GIIEP does have some serious limitations it would suit our emergency services mission.   GIIEP is currently being upgraded everyday and it doesn't cost Civil Air Patrol at all.

Reliability of the connection is one limitation. Quality of the video is another. Program management could also be improved - I know several people who were trained earlier this year and still don't have a userid/password or materials so they can train others. I hope they do improve it.

[Hardshell Clam]

I think we need to accept that the CAP will be mostly about cadets in a few years. Since when does the government care about saving a few bucks? That arguement won't hold water.

Other govt departments and the military/guard want the homeland security missions for themselves and they will lobby to push us out. Trust me, the CAP phone will stop ringing.

[SARDOC]

Reliability of the connection is one limitation. Quality of the video is another. Program management could also be improved - I know several people who were trained earlier this year and still don't have a userid/password or materials so they can train others. I hope they do improve it.

I think the reliability of the connection is the major issue.  As far as the quality of the video it is still better then you get from a predator and is in the process of continuously being improved.  As far as training is concerned that is a hurdle.  NHQ has custody of five units that belong to the First Air Force and they will ship them for missions.  Your wing may have to pay to have the systems fedex'd if you are doing training.  The other option is that the National Guard in your state has two units but it's up to you to see if they will loan them to you and you'd probably have to drive to wherever it is they are being stored...Good luck with that option.

[blackrain]

I think we need to accept that the CAP will be mostly about cadets in a few years. Since when does the government care about saving a few bucks? That arguement won't hold water.

Other govt departments and the military/guard want the homeland security missions for themselves and they will lobby to push us out. Trust me, the CAP phone will stop ringing.

Turf wars have been around as long as I can remember.

That said the cost cutting measures that I see being imposed government wide is positively draconian so I'll be very interested to see how various organizations make their case fiscally given the current realities.

Also we all  see a reality as it exists in our region or state so I'm sure the day to day working relationship between agencies along with available equipment varies accordingly.

Bottom line will end up being the bottom line.

[coudano]

Our secondary problem is that we are difficult to employ, and we come with a lot of strings attached.

One email to NOC and you've got us.  No big deal.  I'd say we're probably the easiest "federal" resource that you can ask for.

Yeah, of course CAP isn't always federal, right...

and I wonder in how many cases have you seen CAP employed with a quick and easy call or mail to NOC?
i've seen it go...   not so smoothly.

ultimately, somebody has to pay, and if we aren't going in 'federal' status, that can create some serious sticking points.



also, to say that you can "just call up the guard and have a bunch of free assets" is pretty misleading,
at a level which you may not see, those beans are being counted, and unless your state is just pouring money out of the ears, or struggling to fill up the programmed budgeted hours and days, those resources are probably limited.  the LE guys may never get a bill, but I guarantee you that someone somewhere is sweating the hours and days.  That money always has to come from somewhere...  And the military option is NOT the cheap option on the table (quite the contrary, the military is big, fat, slow, and expensive).  I've seen people have the hammer dropped on them for (for example) spending training funds on actual operations.  And I've seen operations killed (at the TAG/Governor level) for exceeding costs, and not producing 'worthwhile' effects.  Just depends on the political and economic climate in your state (which tends to change every 3 or 4 years meh)

[Buzz]

I think a cost effectiveness study will show that, by and large, CAP is the better choice.  Drones are EXPENSIVE to fly, compared to us.

HOWEVER, imagine SARSAT getting a hit in the middle of the night, then a drone is launched over the area with IR, and spots still-warm engine and the people around it.  This would be a time when the drone is the better choice.

I predict that we will be seeing mixed-platform SAR missions in the very near future, where drones go in first for a quick look while we get our response going, then we follow up with air and ground for in-depth search.

[lordmonar]

RPAs (Remote Piloted Aircraft) are still a ways off.

First....the military is very busy using all their RPAs for real world missions....there are not a lot available in the states for anything else.

Second....the FAA still has a lot of heart burn about RPAs.....while there is some positive motion on this front....it is still a ways (1-2 years) in the future before they will get the green light to fly in VFR airspace.

Third....there is still a lot of technilogical hurtles that still need to be jumped.....again there is a lot of forward motion on this front....but right now satellite bandwidth is very expensive.

RPA's will one day make CAP obsolete........but that day is still a decade or more away.

[Flying Pig]

This is where the GIIEP system is supposed to be coming into play.  It has the capability to relay FMV at a fraction of the cost of a predator.  Civil Air Patrols operating cost for a C182 are still significantly lower than that of the predator.   While GIIEP does have some serious limitations it would suit our emergency services mission.   GIIEP is currently being upgraded everyday and it doesn't cost Civil Air Patrol at all.

Ive tried many of these low cost systems.  They dont work.  The only one I saw that was actually pretty nice ( wasnt low cost, but was at least lower cost) was SkyIMD.  They brought their 182 G1000 down from the Bay Area and we flew around sending photos to my IPhone that I had left on my desk at the hangar.  Talk about putting their money where their mouth is.  I expressed some doubt to them over the phone because of my past dealings with other companies. They guy showed up with a fully equipped C182 G1000 wit the whole package and said, "Get in, lets go do a surveillace".  It worked just like he said it would. 
I got back and had about 20 photos waiting for me.  I didnt do the streaming video because we would have had to set up my desk top at work and IT wasnt available to allow them to "unlock" my privileges to watch the video.  It comes with a mapping system all contained in a shoe box sized CPU and a Panasonic Toughbook.  Cost was about $90Kish.  It was a really neat system.  The system also came with a small, 7lb FLIR and Color camera mounted on the wing strut.  That system was totally inter-changable between planes in about 10 minutes.  There was NOTHING actually installed in the plane except for a couple of cannon plugs in the side wall. 
Does anyone in CAP who makes decisions actually know anything about this stuff?  Because I never saw anyone.   You think you would tap members who actually do this stuff for a living.  But I can speak from experience, CAP doesnt.   Can we just all please admit that the Hyper Spectral stuff is lame and just get on with our (your) lives?

I just get very  when I think about what I could do with one of those GA8's if CAP gave me $100K.